The Whiteboard

@WorldEngineer Haskell trascends those things, Ruby does something else completely to them..

user20683

I've known some good Rubyists.

I've known some horrible rubyists

but I've found online a variety of rubyists that tend to be quite good

user55340

There is a lot of neat stuff that can be done in ruby. But it is also the domain of quick and dirty without realizing the problems.

9:01 PM

@MichaelT One could say it realizes the problems, quite well in fact, and that's sort of the problem.

user55340

To program ruby well takes significant discipline. Discipline to not use the quick and dirty things. Discipline to make a good API. Other languages force this discipline on you - you can't do it any other way. Ruby doesn't. And thus, developers without discipline in ruby make a big mess.

@MichaelT does Java have easy to use generics?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Not particularly compared to others.

Q: Are Protected Auto-Caste Methods Ok?

In C# people always solve this problem with generics (in general)..

0

I often have superclasses that contain a more abstracted form of a class as a member variable than my subclasses need. I find my code littered ((ClassName)variableName).methodName(). Is the best way to solve this to create a protected/private method called something like getVariableNameAsClass()?...

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Java would be similarish

9:07 PM

But I guess the more appropriate solution is actually that his interfaces aren't generalized enough or may likely violate LSP...

that is to avoid casts everywhere

user55340

I'm comparing it to other JVM languages were the generics are much easier to deal with.

his question is clearly asking if his solution is good, when he should really be asking how to solve his problem (because his solution is not optimal)

user55340

Answer the question that he really needs to ask.

His question is missing information to give good guidance on correcting the generalization of his abstract class, and I don't know java well enough to speak to an appropriate technical solution with generics

Leatherwing

@WorldEngineer Thanks @World, I was just looking around at different chat rooms.

user20683

9:11 PM

@Leatherwing This room is less active than many but more densely informative.

with a slight chance of being opinionated

user55340

Fortunately, chat cannot be closed for "primarly opnion based" nor "too broad"... nor even "career and education suggestions" or "what next" or "resource request"

user20683

@MichaelT it can for being too insane though

user20683

This room was placed in timeout for 1 second; the topic of this room is "General discussion for programmers.stackexchange.com"; - conversation should be limited to that topic.

user20683

QED

user55340

9:15 PM

@WorldEngineer So that means no more monad discussions?

> MORE INFORMATION: The reason I need to caste is because all of the subclasses of Line use an Output class, so I put the getters and setters that relate to the Output class in the base class. The issue is that an AudioLine uses and AudioOutput, and needs to define additional methods that use the more specific features.

Yeah, LSP as I figured

but I'm busy scripting some groovy.. oh fiddlesticks I want the rep (it probably won't be much...)

I give, @WorldEngineer show all the knowledge you've learned trolling around here, tell him about the LSP and why he should avoid it then the tricky part: How to solve LSP violations after the design has already been laid out.

user20683

@MichaelT no, I was demonstrating.

user55340

@WorldEngineer and I was joking.... it goes back to that monads damage the brain and make you want to use vertical monitors.

He should probably use a generic member there, and the subclasses inherit and specify which one, such as:
AudioLine : Line<AudioOutput>

problem solved, in the Line base class it can have a generic constraint saying where T : Output and then do anything it needs to do, and in the subclasses they get their properly concrete type

(Does java have generic constraints?)

user20683

@JimmyHoffa maybe? I've not done Java in ages

user20683

9:23 PM

and I never used Generics, the book we used was too old.

user20683

I first learned of them when I started "Effective Java".

user20683

I then rapidly found myself using Python for reasons I won't specify.

Hello again

kush

Hello Joel

Is Microsoft Visual C# 2010 Express the best program to compile C# applications?

Microsoft Visual in general I mean

user20683

9:27 PM

@JoelKidd There's a 2012 version

Oh snap

user20683

it's the best thing to use for Windows

Is it express?

user20683

there should be one

I hate the Microsoft site

Everythings messy, I can never get what I want easily :P

user20683

9:27 PM

on Mac or Linux you'd use MonoDevelop or Xamarin Studio

Ahh I see, I have a Mac so I may do that

user20683

Resharper is also an option I believe for Windows

Which is better MonoDevelop or Xamarin Studio?

user20683

@JoelKidd neither, they are the same thing

Ah lol :p

Will the 2012 edition of Visual Studio work normally with Windows 7 btw?

Or is it just made for Win 8 desktop apps?

user20683

9:28 PM

not sure

win 8 can go to hell

C# is going well btw! :P

I've been practising straight since the last time I was in the chat :D

I'm going to try and find the 2012 edition now

user20683

@JoelKidd I like windows 8

user20683

it's a little odd at first but it does work

user20683

you want the "desktop" version

user55340

@WorldEngineer (see... monads do cause brain damage. ;-)

9:30 PM

Lol

Desktop version of 2012?

user20683

@MichaelT no, I think that's the SPARC assembly

"Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop"?

user20683

@JoelKidd There's a Windows 8 version

user20683

and a Desktop version

Ahh yes

Again though, that's Visual Studio and not C#

Does it include c#?

I dont want a whole load of poo I don't need, just a 2012 C# express program

user20683

9:32 PM

@JoelKidd It'll include C#

Then I shall download it now, thanks

Also, when I've finished making an application, let's say I've just built a crazy large application

Should I use something else other than the publish option?

Because if C# is so popular, I don't download many programs that use that installer

Is it better to use something like install shield?

C# is for general purpose development of real industry software; that means deployment options are as countless as the environments people write software for, so don't worry too much about how to package it up, do whatever you want on that end; it can be packaged countless ways for deployment

and for *nix there's also SharpDevelop as an IDE for C# but I think that's a bit outdated by now

I see, ok thanks

9:56 PM

Alright programmers, I have reached an impasse in my design. I have a class which represents a message. There are actually 2 different types of messages, but the operations performed by and on those messages are all the same. Or so I thought. I was implementing the code and was about 3/4 of the way through when I got a code smell.

There were a few methods in this class which had dual behavior, that is they would check which kind of message it was before performing an operation. The parameters were the same and the returns were as well, but what happened on the back end changed. So now I have code that creates this class and doesn't really care which kind it is, but what they do has to change.

Does using two classes that inherent the exact same methods and expose no new methods from the abstract class make sense, or is there a better way to do this?

There are other places in the code that care about which kind of message it is... but not many and those already all work

user20683

@Ampt post as a question on the main site, diagrams would be ideal. Use Draw.io if you want.

alright, I'll do that tomorrow then

@Ampt Dependency Inversion: instead of having the accessing methods decide what to do with the message when it's a different message, expose the functionality on the message, and make specific implementations on the different types of methods (the same for anywhere else doing that switching behaviour) or make a 3rd party that will execute that behaviour for you so the messages have specific functionality per type, and that type-specific stuff is called by a mediating object

(I do not know the mediator pattern, I am not referring to that, I just used the term to reference what a 3rd party object would do in this case)

I don't think you need a 3rd party though, I think you just need to make your messages smarter if they have type specific logic.

from what I understand there I would guess that two different classes would be correct? They would be specific implementations of the different types of methods

@Ampt Yep.

You were spot on pretty much but I think you were suggesting creating different types of message processors to handle the logic for different message types which would be wrong

10:08 PM

I may post this as a question anyway because I do think it's an interesting problem

By all means do

I'm just taking a leap

not different types of message processors, just different types of messages themselves

with more information and more eyes than mine you may well get a much better suggestion

Ah then yeah you were on the same page as me.

...unless you want to use a monad....just saying...

user20683

room topic changed to The Whiteboard: General discussion for programmers.stackexchange.com [good-beer] [horror-stories] [monads] [my-code-is-compiling] [programmers]

get your monads outa here

user20683

10:18 PM

@Ampt They aren't my monads...

@GlenH7 question for a "real engineer"

Q: Repository of useful pro-forma comments

10:42 PM

What's your question? I love the post but the question-ness of this question is questionable. — World Engineer 3 hours ago

wish all the mod notices be like that. Time to create a new repository of useful poetic comments I guess

53

Every tag has its questions that make the same mistake(s) over and over and over again. (But some tags more than others.) That's where Benjol's pro forma comments script comes in. The only downside to this great script is that it uses local storage, so if you switch browsers or machine, you lose...

support stackoverflow comments pro-forma-comments

user20683

@gnat I'm very good at writing like that. I just don't do it all that often on SE.

user20683

The soundness of Programmers mods can be soundly declared unsound.

2

@MichaelT chat can be closed "for educational purposes", just ask Lounge C++ guys

23

Q: Lounge C++ frozen by mod?

Seriously why is Lounge C++ being frozen by Mod Gordon? I mean really? Because we're not on-topic?

discussion chat

user20683

@gnat That was less educational and more "OMG FIRE FIRE FIRE!!!!!"

in C++ one never free()

Stack Exchange

10:50 PM

Yannis Rizos has frozen this room.

Yannis Rizos has unfrozen this room.

@WorldEngineer power games I guess (and no, I don't mean at mod side only; mature community has a lot of power itself, it's only natural them wishing to "measure" it agains mods). Lebensraum, drang nach Osten, stuff like that

Yannis Rizos

Hey, I finally found out how I can do that. I guess that counts as educational, doesn't it?

Stack Exchange

World Engineer has frozen this room.

user20683

However some interesting things can be done.

Stack Exchange

World Engineer has unfrozen this room.

10:53 PM

@YannisRizos I learned a bit during this blackout. Message you're typing suddenly disappers... you get scared, then it returns back on unfreeze

you evilnazis :)

user20683

@gnat pot kettle black :P

given what I heard about Lounge hyper-activity, freezing should have brought them into berserk mode that's for sure

user20683

yeah but they earned it

@WorldEngineer I didn't learn details to make my own mind on that. But reading MSO discussion was entertaining

@KonradRudolph You can use: "Remarkably stupid." "Asinine." "Pure dumbassery." "The work of a true git." A web search finds many more insults that don't attack millions of bystanders (meta discussion too!). But here, why not just use "wholly unjustified to the point of being ridiculous" (your words)? That's rhetorically and emotionally stronger than any of these generic insults (or your original), and may even yield productive discourse. Btw I have no opinion on the Lounge issue. :) — Eliah Kagan Jul 31 at 23:31

@gnat who didn't love berserk mode?

user20683

10:59 PM

@JimmyHoffa Not I, didn't play enough Doom or Doom II

user20683

I was playing Marathon at the time

while they were talking about NSFW I was thinking could this rule bent to youtube clips?

►

on topic!

user20683

I prefer this version:

user20683

wrong version

@WorldEngineer version control broken? but these are on-topic anyway!

user20683

11:05 PM

not so much that, badge farming on steam and this game pushes the system to the limit

user20683

so slow and weird browser behavior

user20683

►

user20683

There we go

@WorldEngineer this version is better indeed. Much better

user20683

@gnat This guy has real talent, I saw him live once

11:12 PM

and completely on topic

user20683

did a panel at DragonCon about 6 years ago

Coulton?

user20683

@gnat no, Kagato

user20683

whose real name I've forgotton

user20683

I've seen Coulton in passing

user20683

11:16 PM

along with Jason Mamoa (who is huge) and James Marsters (who is not)

@WorldEngineer the guy who made animation? the one you posted really rocks

user20683

@gnat yeah, Nick Nickenbock I think is his name