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12:27 AM
@TeresaLisbon I posted one answer to this question, and was directed to the EoQS post (I'm not a meta user, and didn't realize this was such a big issue). On this post, there was back and forth in the comments, and the OP asked an additional, specific question. I responded because the question in the comments was specific, and showed that the OP was engaging in the problem. Should users respond when there's further clarification and a more specific question in the comments, or is that inappropriate?
4 hours later…
4:14 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, no whitespace in body, potentially bad keyword in body (193): 112312321321312321 ✏️ by knightwik on math.SE
4:41 AM
@AmaanM Very good point : I personally think if OP is engaging in the problem, then the simple task of asking them to insert clarifications into their question post appropriately will do the job of adding context. So you are absolutely correct and I spoke about this : context often comes out in comments, clarifications occur if the interaction is great. If such a question gets closed ...
... we could do much worse than ask the questioner to paraphrase their comments into the question post appropriately. 90% of the time the comments actually contain all the context required, and this helps the question reopen : BUT I don't think it's then a wise thing to answer the question before this is done.
@AmaanM Unfortunately, OPs respond to various kinds of cues : some respond to comments, but sometimes they respond only to answers, and sometimes they don't respond at all. The latter two categories, if they post low-quality questions, should have to change their attitude, but in the former category, the simple task of having OP edit their question while conversing will make things very easy for any answerer :
Thank you so much for seeking clarification here, and you can attach the question where you have faced this situation, since I'd like to see if I can do something to help you here.
(Correction : I see the post, and there's one comment by the OP. I'll attempt an improvement comment and then we can try to see if it works out).
5:00 AM
(I've left a comment there, let's hope it works)
5:11 AM
Q: if $a^2=2 b^2$ then can we say that a must be an even number?

Yagami lightif $a^2 = 2 b^2$ then can we say that a must be an even number? Where $a$ and $b$ are real numbers, and the fraction $\frac{a}{b}$ is in the simplest form.

Q: Proving $ \lim_{\beta\to\alpha}\frac{\alpha\sin\beta-\beta\sin\alpha}{\alpha \cos \beta- \beta \cos \alpha}= \tan(\alpha-\tan^{-1}\alpha) $

Sayantan Prove that $$ \lim_{\beta\to\alpha}\;\frac{\alpha\sin\beta-\beta\sin\alpha}{\alpha \cos \beta- \beta \cos \alpha}= \tan(\alpha-\tan^{-1}\alpha) $$ I am solving the exercise from the S.L. Loney plane trigonometry book, page 48 question number 35, I got stuck. Any help will be truly appreciated.

This is an exactly PSQ.
@lonestudent Second one has the source mentioned, and it is mentioned in the comments that series expansion was attempted, with derivatives not allowed. This question looks like it can be improved. The first question looks like it was motivated by the irrationality proof for sqrt(2), so I think we can try to get that as context out of the user. Oh, and good morning!
(Basically, as they stand the first is a PSQ , the second is not a PSQ but still borderline. Both can be improved.)
5:30 AM
@TeresaLisbon Hi.Good morning. If not, I can answer such questions. So not accepting Problem-Statement with a little resource.
@lonestudent Sure, thanks for the clarification. The problem is that both seems to have been answered, so I don't think further answers can add anything new and useful unless the question changes, and I think all users involved have already been informed of the new guidelines, so I'm kind of on the edge over doing it again. The first question is closed, the second one has no close vote due to being on the borderline, but has a downvote. Let's see if I can leave good comments.
But yes, @lonestudent, I don't think at least the first question should have been answered. The second question at least has source mentioned, which is important, so I'm giving it a light pass, but the first needs some detail.
5:49 AM
@TeresaLisbon Thanks. I do not mean this question. There is an answer to this question. Should we think there are actually PSQ questions that can and cannot be improved? Because I see a lot of problem-statement (and without context) questions answered by high reputation users. But I don't want to post it here. Some of them have already closed. But many answers have been voted. My goal is not to earn rep. But a user who answered also has an extremely high reputation.
I usually do not use downvote and close vote. Rarely. I do not know. In giving an example, I mean: I see that the rules are not strict. So it looks like we can answer if we want to. $\ddot\smiles$
@lonestudent The whole situation is very unfortunate. You have chosen to be informed, but many high rep users have to chosen to be wilfully ignorant. I can put this down occasionally to a difference of opinion, but am I the only one that thinks reputation is still driving some of them? It's not good for the site as a whole, when you can post your homework here and one of these users jumps at it and answers it. That net has to be tighter :
The reason why it isn't as tight as say the Physics site, was because historically questions that were tagged "homework" would be answered on the site, and there was a shift in 2016 when it was decided that this was affecting the site's quality. Some people did not want to move out of their comfort zones, and some wanted to. The rules on context were then established as a compromise.
The high rep users are the remnants from the homework policy : that's why you will see a lot of protected PSQs as well from the olden times @lonestudent. BUT...
... there is a school of thought that the same users are now being driven by reputation although they already have a lot of it. I cannot comment on this because I don't have the evidence on show to prove/disprove this, but the policies also try to stop that, by stopping the answering of PSQs, which is a major source of reputation and a site quality dampener. Hence the whole hullabaloo around PSQs.
@TeresaLisbon I mean by reputation, I will repeat:. (Not disclosing someone. I haven't specified a name. I haven't added the question either) The rules are not strict. Sometimes we can, sometimes not.
@lonestudent The rules are not strict, but the community consensus on the issue and the site guidelines state, on the whole, that ideally you should refrain from answering PSQs. The consensus on the issue is typified by meta responses and the pattern that 70-75% (perhaps a little higher) of questions do indeed follow the guidelines and receive better attention. On "Sometimes we can, sometimes not" : I have no problem if the question answered is a debatable one, at least we can talk here about ...
... its relevance to the site guidelines. It's the ones that are really of poor quality that we pretty much need to take our eyes off. That's question 1 which you posted, and I don't think it should have been answered by a user who hasn't even gone back to its context, which is most likely the irrationality proof for sqrt(2).
(By take eyes off, I don't mean ignore : I mean talk with the user, help them improve their question, but don't answer). Yes, the rules are not strict, but then again, we aren't rubbing people's noses with "rules are rules, who don't follow, they fools" or some other slogan. We are willing to converse if others are willing to converse. The conversation from the other side has been missing for too long.
6:11 AM
@TeresaLisbon Yes, I stated that in the comment. Let me clarify a little bit. I meant I noticed that too many questions (without MathJax and without context) were answered and voted (high reputation users) Some were later edited by others. Actually, PSQ questions are much better than them. At least no pictures and Using MathJax.
@lonestudent Yes, PSQ users don't use pictures, and they also use MathJax if they are familiar. But I personally think that pictures can do a job if they contained enough context within the picture (e.g. a one-page attempt of a question, with some parts underlined etc.) obviously this doesn't work as a pattern, but I'm willing to allow some questions like this, especially those with participative OPs. BUT : generally, PSQs on paper/ link PSQs are far worse than well written PSQs...
... It is a bit of a rough area . After all, one can argue : "oh, the OP spent time formatting their question , framing it clearly, so we can forgive the fact that it is left as a question and no more" well, I say to that this : you make the effort on your question, and somebody willing can make the effort to present it to the audience. If there is a language issue or a MathJax formatting issue for a relatively new user, then...
@TeresaLisbon Of course, it makes no sense to answer questions that use pictures that don't use MathJax and don't give context. But PSQ questions are a bit controversial. Which one is and which one is not. It looks a bit controversial.
@lonestudent If it is controversial , we'll begin with a simple formula , though, which I think everybody here would be agreeing with : A post containing only a question and a statement of the form : "I'm stuck, what can I do here?" / "Any help is appreciated, thanks!" , with a title that either has the question repeated again and/or says "please help/ I'm stuck here" etc. should not be on-site about 99.99% of the time.
@TeresaLisbon Exactly. If someone puts in certain effort but use picture, it's likely to get help for MathJax on their first question.
Which doesn't mean that we reject such questions immediately : instead, use comments liberally and improve the question. Anybody can do this, and once if has been improved, anybody can answer it.
6:28 AM
@TeresaLisbon Thanks for the tips. Yes, I agree. I wish you good days.
@lonestudent Thanks, and wish you good days. I spoke to a user yesterday regarding their experience with a closed question. I want to spread the following message : 85% of the users on this site , if they search correctly and prompt for context correctly, can carry about their work on this site with the ease that they brush their teeth in the morning. I am willing to elaborate on this when required!
I wish to make it 100% but I understand that some users are of a certain level that they can only answer a very limited scope of questions (13-14 year olds, for example). The 15% is a reservation for them.
@TeresaLisbon Actually, I am not someone who contributes too much to the site. I'm not solving differential geometry, usually simple calculus and algebra. Still, thank you for chatting with me. $\ddot\smile$
@lonestudent Sure, you are basically the majority of this site. I used to be in there, what a nice feeling. But I'm here now, and that's a nice feeling as well! See you around!
4 hours later…
10:37 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, no whitespace in body (192): sdasdasd adasda ✏️ by Aierel on math.SE
3 hours later…
1:52 PM
PSQ Question has been self-answered but after at least one answer came in. Future direction can be specified.
@TeresaLisbon voted and commented.
@amWhy Thanks. Up early in the morning! Good habit.
(Well, it's early for me at least. I'm used to seeing the light of day a little late nowadays).
@TeresaLisbon I was up four and a half hours ago!
@TeresaLisbon Indeed. Ben Franklin once wrote: "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise"!
@amWhy Oh dear, I wish I could sleep that less. I slept eight hours yesterday, and then followed it up with two in the afternoon!
Downvote and delete once again, answer without context!
2:27 PM
@TeresaLisbon I tend to need eight-hours of sleep to be fully rested.
1 hour later…
3:52 PM
@Peter First two need one more delete vote, the final D is gone.
@TeresaLisbon for the post which could be reopened , we need a downvote to open it for deletion.
4:08 PM
@Peter Thanks , open for deletion. I had forgotten to downvote!
I will come to the Hopf chatroom today, I need something new to start on my machine.
@amWhy Gone! And yeah, eight hours is about right!
@TeresaLisbon @Peter Gone!.
@amWhy Thanks. I was surprised regarding who would vote to reopen that. At least one person apart from (possibly) the answerer would have had to be involved.
@TeresaLisbon TY. It also relates to an answer 5xum flagged, see: math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/33538/…
And the rather lame mod response.
Actually, what hurts me the most is when a user leaves a comment saying : "hello, welcome to math.se, your question is..." and another user, despite seeing that , still decides to go on and answer the question. To not inform the user that made the comment regarding quality is blatant disregard of their opinion, and that's what hurt me most in the second post. I left a comment which seemed decently received, but I'm still hurt when it happens, mostly for the commenter.
It's also disrespect from OP if that comment goes ignored, especially if it comes first in the comment thread. If not saying "what can I do about this?" , at least saying "can you explain why is this important?" would be a good response.
@TeresaLisbon I completely understand. While there are some answerers attempting to help improve questions by commenting to the OP, the same offenders swoop down like vultures, to answer anyway.
4:29 PM
Besides, the existing answer shouldn't have even come, the question was low-quality at the time, but now there's the problem of it being incomplete as well.
4:43 PM
@TeresaLisbon I don't even think the question is yet worth reopening, and voted to delete it.
Even N.S. comments: "Show what you did so far and where you got stuck". The OP never bothers to add "what they did so far", only "where they got stuck."
@amWhy Sure! It's still a borderline question. I have given a suggestion and asked for edits. The answer is on -1 votes, I have voted to delete it.
As is, I'd be sort of okay if an answerer merely helped them get unstuck on that one point.
(Do you think we should flag it (the answer)? We can't leave a comment, we've done this before. Perhaps flagging would do the job).
@TeresaLisbon I'm game, are you? We can indicate that the answerer fully answered the question, even before the minuscule improvement.
@amWhy Let's go!
(Wait, you're flagging for mod intervention, right?)
4:51 PM
@TeresaLisbon Yes... My flag cast!
By the way, by mistake I clicked the reopen button and pressed enter instead of the close dialog, so it's just unfortunate my name is in the reopen list!
@TeresaLisbon No worries.
@amWhy Thanks, and : done!
The answer is gone.
@TeresaLisbon The answer is now gone.
@amWhy Thanks!
4:56 PM
@TeresaLisbon I was typing while you posted! Our comments are identical, save for my "now"! Thanks, @Peter.
Welcome, @PaulRebenciuc !
Feel free to jump in, or watch the interactions in this chat. Any questions about this chat, feel free to ask!
PSQ have left reply below an answer.
@TeresaLisbon Open for deletion
@Peter The user posted their question and seems to have not returned. Should we wait for their reply to the comments before deletion?
With the additional prayer that the answer below is gone by then, so that they think the question hasn't been answered.
ok, I'll wait then, and probably ask others : wait for sometime before deleting this question, in particular for a response from the author. If no response is found, please delete the question. But we must delete the answer IMO.
5 hours is long enough , I think
@amWhy Hello, while reading some new meta posts, I was redirected here. I recently found out that a low-quality question, with my answer in it, was totally deleted. First, I was surprised, but then, reading the new Enforcement policy, I understand the reason. Thank you for pointing me out!
5:08 PM
@Peter I did think so, then I realized the user could have gone to sleep or something . Perhaps, I don't know of course, but I think I'll wait it out. If it gets deleted, so be it.
@PaulRebenciuc Thanks for commenting here! You never really presented a big problem; it's easier to work with newer answerers, and where the real struggle has been, has been long term, habitual users, often with much in rep, who are reluctant to stop doing what they've always done. Glad to came around to these parts to visit us! You are always welcome here!
^^^ Also, I mean by "newer asnwerer" those who haven't already built up >30 K in rep, largely by answering very low quality questions.
5:45 PM
6:20 PM
@ElliotYu That's in the bottom 1% of questions that I've seen on this site, in terms of quality. I'll see what I can write there.
1 hour later…
7:29 PM
@TeresaLisbon Thank you for the clarifications, I appreciate your taking the time to walk me through!
@Teresa, at all. For awhile, it is not safe for me to talk in this chat. I'll still be around, but trust me, it is not at all safe for me to talk here. I'll be back, just now is just not a good time.
I'll still check in, and vote on many suggestions.
8:14 PM
@amWhy Ok. I'm going to sleep, so I'll see you!
@AmaanM Welcome! While you can keep this in mind generally, the question we are focusing on has the issue that the OP hasn't actually revisited the site in 2 days, so we have to wait for them to see it and then I'll let you know if there was a good response. If there's no response, then deletion will become an option, which just means the question was not improved so it is not worth keeping on the site anymore. Except in rare cases users can't edit the question for OP, so it's up to OP now.
1 hour later…
9:40 PM
@TeresaLisbon That makes sense, and please let me know if it would be appropriate for me to delete my answer, I'm not sure what the right next steps for me should be.

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