The Whiteboard

user55340

3:00 PM

The other fun one is go to the dba. Be out of breath. Say very quickly "how fast does replication happen?"

Kit Z. Fox

And this is how I discovered that we didn't run DB backups, only server backups, once daily at 6AM.

It's really very funny in retrospect. I didn't think it was funny at all at the time.

Thomas Owens

I just told a guy to go tell decision making people that their architecture is bad and they should feel bad.

But I explained why it's bad and he agrees.

So now there's two of us saying that the architecture is bad and they should feel bad. 2 > 1.

Kit Z. Fox

Woo!

user55340

Both of those were real events at Employer^^.

Kit Z. Fox

I got my whole team to agree that we shouldn't adulterate the labels yesterday, so I just sent an email to business with a firm "No. I said no, and I meant no, so let's talk about how else we can address your need."

Jimmy Hoffa

3:04 PM

@ThomasOwens this calculation isn't properly weighted

Thomas Owens

If business tells you how to do something, they are immediately wrong. Even if you come up with the same solution, they are still wrong.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens I know. We're working on that.

I have made a lot of progress, but this switch to Agile isn't helping.

Thomas Owens

I know you do. I'm just offering up my profound statements for the rest of the world.

user55340

room topic changed to The Whiteboard: General Discussion for programmers.stackexchange.com Pants optional when telecommuting. [coffee-day] [horror-stories] [my-code-is-compiling] [prod-deploy-at-4pm-fri] [scotch] [spoiler-free] [the-other-monitor]

2

Kit Z. Fox

My bad. Let me celebrate your success: That was an insightful comment.

Thomas Owens

3:06 PM

My coworker has a list of platitudes to give to someone.

We try to combine them in strange ways.

user55340

I especially like the order of the tags.

Kit Z. Fox

The one on the whiteboard behind my monitors is: I will contribute to my team's success today. When I repeat it, I imagine that I am Carolyn Burnham (Annette Benning) from American Beauty.

...and business pushes back. I am never going to do this well.

"We own this and we've made this decision so do it."

I can't squelch my reaction -- "No" -- so ima go workout for a bit and come back to it.

enderland

@MichaelT you seem to know a ton about this subject... if someone has a cool thing on something like their blog or on instagram/etsy/etc and it's not patented, is there any legal thing preventing me from using that idea, improving upon it, and then monetizing it?

Ampt

3:21 PM

@JimmyHoffa 5820k, MSI x99 mobo and 32 gigs of ram

user55340

@enderland the only legal protection for ideas is patents. Copyrights protect code. Trademarks protect names. You should be fine as long as the work isn't a derivative nor misrepresents itself as the original idea.

enderland

@MichaelT I'd guess that the idea isn't patented or copywritten at all since it's basically a hobby thing

user55340

I will point out that if the idea has already been monetized, there have been some odd rulings where copyright infringement has been found.

Thomas Owens

@enderland If there is text, music, audio, images, etc, those are automatically copyrighted as soon as they are created.

user55340

7

A: What percentage of change is considered artistic license vs. a clone in video game development?

#include <IANAL.h> /* If you need a lawyer, talk to one */ This is all based on my very limited knowledge of intellectual property law (and mostly around board games and photographs). Do not assume that because I am writing this I know what I'm talking about. Nintendo has lawyers who know much...

enderland

3:28 PM

@ThomasOwens I wouldn't be taking any of that content - just the idea, basically, and running with it

user55340

> I will also point to Triple Town / Yeti Town and the lawsuit over this. Its a clone and apparently fell into copyright, though I can't read legalese quite well enough to determine what exactly it was with my limited knowledge that the infringement was on (there was infringement, but what area? I'm guessing not enough change to the UI...)

user55340

I still have no idea how Tetris clones get takedowns over copyright.

Thomas Owens

@enderland What I don't know is if there is a specific design and there's a photograph of it, the photograph is protected. But does the design get any automatic protection? Or do you need to trademark your design?

enderland

@ThomasOwens I don't know

user55340

design has no automatic protection.

Thomas Owens

3:30 PM

@MichaelT That's what I thought. It's trademarkable, though, yes?

Or patentable. Depends on what the design is.

user55340

Design patent

In the United States, a design patent is a form of legal protection granted to the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents. A similar concept, a registered design can be obtained in other countries. In Kenya, Japan, South Korea and Hungary, industrial designs are registered after performing an official novelty search. In the countries of the European Community, one needs to only pay an official...

enderland

or that type of thing, for different games

Thomas Owens

I can't see that webpage at work.

Blocked because Games.

enderland

lol

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Bioshock has insanely fun gameplay mixed with great story telling - sure there are the philosophical themes, but that's more of a structure for the story than the story itself.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:31 PM

@Ampt you picked up 32gb of ram? A) Dumbass B) !?! Why??

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Vms on Vms mother trucker

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt iduno, the gameplay was too rehashed for me

enderland

@ThomasOwens taking foamcore and making inserts for board games to help with setup/organization

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa which one did you play?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt you intend to make it productiveish for actual technical servicing?

Thomas Owens

3:32 PM

HOLD ON STOP EVERYTHING. North Korea claims to have invented hangover free alcohol.

user55340

Thomas Owens

We must investigate this.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt 1 and 2 - not completely. Just got too bored after running about for a bit

user55340

@ThomasOwens can you see that?

enderland

what @MichaelT posted

stuff like that

Thomas Owens

3:33 PM

@MichaelT Yes, Thanks.

enderland

i've made a few of those for my own games and in talking with a friend, I think it could be monetized

Thomas Owens

I don't know why you couldn't be able to do it. It's not incredibly novel.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I intend to play all the games at once on it

@JimmyHoffa 1 was good - how far did you get? I skipped 2 and then went straight to infinite

user55340

I don't see 'segmented box' being something that can be patented in recent times, but then the patent office can be dumb at times too.

enderland

@ThomasOwens I wouldn't think so

Jimmy Hoffa

3:34 PM

@Ampt I have a tommy gun and some flying robot thing has been following me around for a while.

enderland

@MichaelT I guess what's the worse that happens, I make it and it is too successful and I get shut down? :P

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa in 2 or 1?

enderland

damnit I'm supposed to be off work and on day 2 of no work I'm designing a small business to start

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt you really should have looked into that stacked ram thing. 32gb of RAM that's to be outdated in ~1-2 years isn't worth the investment for 32gb

user55340

@enderland the 'shut down' part can involve some nasty legal bills.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:34 PM

@Ampt 1

don't remember where I got in 2, that was a long time ago

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Stacked ram?

Jimmy Hoffa

somebody's having a flagpocalypse..

enderland

@MichaelT eh, yeah... but hey it'd be a life experience amirite :P

user55340

However, again, I don't see it being patentable in recent times.

Ampt

I already have 16GB and was regularly using >75%

Jimmy Hoffa

3:35 PM

@Ampt I mentioned it the other day when I mentioned the NVLink stuff

user55340

I'm also fairly sure that something was done with laser cut wood.

enderland

I don't think so either @MichaelT as it's pretty much "use cutter to cut pieces and assemble"

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa it's 32GB of DDR4 - not sure how quickly it's going to get outdated

I figure DDR4 has at least another 4 years in it

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt extremetech.com/computing/…

> There are major changes coming in the memory interface world, and recent interest in AMD and Nvidia’s plans to adopt the new High Memory Bandwidth standard make this a good time to explain the three new standards: Wide I/O, HBM, and HMC.

user55340

3:37 PM

(from boardgamegeek.com/thread/958979/… )

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Sounds like that's talking about RAM for graphics cards?

Jimmy Hoffa

> Intel and Micron have claimed that up to 400GB/s of bandwidth may be possible via HMC, with production expected in 2016 and commercial availability in 2017.

> HMC is not a JEDEC standard but has multiple development partners, including Samsung, Micron, Microsoft, Altera, ARM, Intel, HP, and Xilinx. One of the major goals of HMC is to strip out the duplicative control logic of modern DIMMS, simplify the design, connect the entire stack in a 3D configuration, then use a single control logic layer to handle all read/write traffic.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa well phoey on you

user55340

Which eventually became: kickstarter.com/projects/1423575262/dominion-storage-case

enderland

@MichaelT ah yeah so lots of comparable things out there

Jimmy Hoffa

3:39 PM

@Ampt Hardware architecture has been fairly consistent across components for ~5-7 years now. PCI-E versions upgrading, DDR versions upgrading, but the overarching architecture is pretty consistent. The modern interconnect whatever it's called is even around that old now no? They're finally doing another revamp to all of this stuff.

user55340

LOTS of them.

enderland

Sweet, so pretty much no IP problems

user55340

Doubtful.

enderland

hmm

Jimmy Hoffa

user55340

3:40 PM

(as in I doubt there will be any IP issue)

enderland

yeah I wouldn't think so, either

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt you should have made this a tick upgrade, not a tock with what's coming down the pipe. You just needed your systems to run for you and your GF for the next ~2 years. 32gb is too much to buy to only be replaced in 2 years heh.

Ampt

hard to do a tick on a 5 year old platform though

that was the gfx card upgrade I did a while back - it was time for a tock

besides, it'll be out dated next month already

can't always time the market

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt well of course it will, you fried your graphics cards and your PSU has barreled caps from overpulling. You'll be lucky if your hard drive isn't fried at this point.

Jan 11 at 16:06, by Ixrec

<-- helping

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa blah blah fucking blah

Thomas Owens

3:57 PM

I want to be a generalizing specialist. It's apparently a thing.

user55340

@ThomasOwens you enjoying the MSE license cruffle?

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Yes. Is there new events?

user55340

It is a thing. Often they call themselves full stack.

user55340

11

A: Code licensing proposal — Point of order!

The second proposal was a gaffe, which I'd like to explain in a bit more depth. I've said bits of this in various places; it's important to get it down in one place coherently. The enormity of the project, this giant thing full of so many variables and so much uncertainty had an effect on us - ...

user55340

One thing on there is the "SO first" bit in there. It's the biggest problem.

user55340

4:00 PM

It may turn out code review and golf get different licenses.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens It's for people who don't want to be left out

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT That's a terribly confusing idea.

But it could make sense...

user55340

Review and golf are really different beasts.

Thomas Owens

Wait...he linked to my post advocating Apache 2.0, yet said that people are warming up to BSD 2-clause...

o_o

user55340

With review being any code license imposed, could make it impossible to review contributions to a gpl project.

user55340

4:04 PM

With golf, there is originally everywhere.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens yeah..wat? Comment telling him that link is confused

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa I am.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I quite appreciate this response and it makes sense. A very nice "You know, from our vantage it looked ok, but we now realize, we were absolutely wrong. You guys hate this; sorry, let's try and figure out a solution together."

Thomas Owens

I wanted to compare MIT and BSD and I found this post on Programmers. I think the answer is wrong - MIT does require attribution and it's very similar (if not identical to_ BSD 2-clause.

51

Q: MIT vs. BSD vs. Dual License

My understanding is that: MIT-licensed projects can be used/redistributed in BSD-licensed projects. BSD-licensed projects can be used/redistributed in MIT-licensed projects. The MIT and the BSD 2-clause licenses are essentially identical. BSD 3-clause = BSD 2-clause + the "no endorsement" claus...

Jimmy Hoffa

they rightly decided they should go back to how they should have started to begin with

Thomas Owens

4:06 PM

Can someone read the answer and confirm?

user55340

My take is: I'm a bsd proponent for many, though really that's a "copy left infectious" opponent.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Join the copyleft opponents club. We're going to start meeting at the bar on Fridays.

After getting properly drunk, we will stumble around MIT until we meet RMS and trash talk him, before going home and going to bed.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT if it can't be the opposite of left, it must be the opposite of copy, what is that? Novel left licensing?

user55340

I will point out that GFDL isn't something that bothers me. What's more its provisions for invariant must include section appeals to me. But that is about documents not code.

Thomas Owens

Documents and code are different.

user55340

4:10 PM

GFDL is also GPL incompatible IIRC.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I read this as GDFL and hear Goddamned F***ing License in my head at that, which needs to be a license. I support this license and all court-room discussions regarding it.

3

user55340

@ThomasOwens the MIT license has a difference on the right to sub license rather than redistribute.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT What I'm taking exception to in the answer is "MIT license allows for distribution without contribution credits; BSD doesn't.".

Both require distributing the license with copyright statement.

user55340

Probably an incorrect statement.

user55340

I would be tempted to close (and delete) the question here and re ask it on law.se.

Thomas Owens

4:16 PM

I hope that Open Source leaves beta.

user55340

FOS sometimes feels like the answers have too much agenda.

Thomas Owens

Yes, it's us copyright + permissive license people versus those copyleft zealots.

Ixrec

it feels like the reality of licensing has too much agenda

Thomas Owens

And those copyleft zealots will go down.

user55340

The choice can be a statement.

Thomas Owens

4:18 PM

There are times that copyleft can be useful.

user55340

Which is where law feels more "just the facts"

user55340

@ThomasOwens remind me to dig up the RMS stuff about emacs and support for llvm's debugger. He gets downright paranoid.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT He's a zealot. Most zealots are paranoid.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens What do you mean by that?

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox Tightly focused on one thing, without being able to see the big picture. Anything not in their own little area scares the hell out of them and they don't like it.

user55340

4:26 PM

@ThomasOwens he also goofed big time awhile back. The key LLVM developer asked if RMS wanted him to assign the copyrights he had on llvm to FSF, but it got ignored (likely because of an @apple.com address).

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens WHAT ARE YOU SAYING!?

Thomas Owens

For example, the copyleft people in particular want software to be open and free. A lot of people ignore the fact that there's a lot of closed source software out there. If you want your library or widget or whatever to be incorporated into software, then no one producing closed source software will use it.

user55340

They want all software to be free.

Thomas Owens

Their "four freedoms" that they like ignore the freedom to use software in other applications.

@MichaelT Yeah, that's not happening. Ever.

user55340

I think they romanticize the artists under patronage.

Thomas Owens

4:29 PM

brb - lunch

user55340

And that works for some developers. Like Guido and Linus working for some company to work on software.

user55340

And maybe the Benevolent Dictators For Life getting MacArthur genius grants or able to support themselves nicely on a speaking / conference schedule.

user55340

It really ignores the in the trenches writing software to keep the wheels of companies turning.

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens I think this is a bit of an oversimplification of the four freedoms; the ideal of software meeting that definition of "free" I have no problem with

I'd prefer to object to the zealots by saying that the act of copylefting, i.e. legally forcing code to remain "free" after reuse, also causes that software to be non-"free" by limiting what we can do with it, therefore the very idea of "enforcing the four freedoms" is self-contradictory

user55340

They don't like things such as: npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/08/17/432601480/… - and they're right about that. That runs against our sensibilities.

Thomas Owens

4:41 PM

@Ixrec Actually, you're saying what I intended to say much better.

Ixrec

cool

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec contractual documents have agendas? Never! I am...gobsmacked... this cannot. I don't know what to say! Goodness!

Ixrec

wtfpl.net <-- behold the agenda

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT That, indeed, is a Bad Thing. But copyleft isn't the right solution. And I don't see how it's the solution to the problem. There's a difference between closed source and who owns what after you buy a product.

That is the argument there, correct? Once you buy something, you shouldn't be locked down in doing things to it.

Even if the source is closed, you should still be able to look and change things. You may void a warranty or something like that.

user55340

Did you buy a copy of Windows?

user55340

4:45 PM

Or what about iOS?

Thomas Owens

I own a copy of Windows, yes.

Most people who buy a computer do.

As such, I should be able to use tools to investigate and even reimplement system32.dll. But if I replace it, Microsoft shouldn't have any responsibility to fix my mistakes if I horribly break everything.

Robert Harvey

What IDE's do people use for Node.JS?

Ampt

what about the firmware that runs your car?

should you, or anyone else, be able to freely modify that?

Robert Harvey

@Ampt After-market computer chips. Improve your gas mileage, increase your engine power.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey IntelliJ is love, IntelliJ is life

Robert Harvey

4:55 PM

@Ampt Does Intellij have a dropdown where you can choose a method within a module to navigate to?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Yes. But if you do, the manufacturer is no longer liable for anything. Oh, and if you start failing emissions tests...that's on you, too.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey And are a definite gray area as far as legality goes - they often misreport emissions

@ThomasOwens Don't worry, mine always reports that I'm passing emissions! :D

enderland

@ThomasOwens good luck with this, in the USA people get sued for things all the time that they "shouldn't be liable" for

user41796

@Ampt Because VW's firmware could be trusted to report emissions accurately too? :-D

Ampt

@GlenH7 Right? People pay a lot of money to cheat emissions for better power, and VW owners get it for free! What a great company!

enderland

4:57 PM

1

A: What liability concerns would drive an airplane homebuilder to scrap their plane?

My father has built a small plane and talks about this problem (incidentally it is an RV through Van's too). This is a very common understanding amongst the community involved in building RV's. When you sell a plane, you are incurring significant liability. A point not really mentioned in the o...

ratchet freak

@Ampt until you see the sports cars with 300+ g/km (where a car that's considered green is ~100 g/km)

Thomas Owens

Working in aerospace, every component has to be certified. I would expect that there would need to be similar certification processes for third-party automotive pieces. That would include an audit of testing the component to make sure it doesn't falsify input/outputs. That wouldn't stop a VW situation from happening again, but cars with uncertified parts could automatically fail inspections.

user41796

@Ampt I see them in a whole new light now...

enderland

@Ampt well it was free, but future buyers will pay for it hah

Ampt

@GlenH7 You may also find this funny: Slovenia has gone through it's entire work day and I've got no response

Thomas Owens

5:05 PM

Maybe it's a holiday in Slovenia.

user41796

Ha! They see you, and one-up the game!

Thomas Owens

Polona Hercog and Petra Rampre were born on January 20th. Maybe they take their tennis so seriously they declared a national holiday.

user41796

@ThomasOwens - Parts of this answer are correct, and parts are incorrect

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Yeah. There are some things are just jump out as wrong without even a deep read.

user41796

That particular question would be better off answered with a flow chart showing the downstream effects of the various license choices involved

Jimmy Hoffa

5:17 PM

@Ampt what are you expecting from Slovenia? I'm not convinced that's even a real country. Let me guess, it's a county in Transylvania, a part of the continent of Slovonokenia? Are you trying to send mail to Pangaean addresses? Because that might not work out so good.

@RobertHarvey Depends. WebStorm is the big JetBrains one which is by all accounts quite good. Atom is a solid choice that's gained lots of usage. Otherwise lots of Sublime Text, Editpad, vim, and Emacs.

There's a variety of online IDEs that are really very good

shiftedit.net

^^^ worth realizing how good these cloud-based IDEs are getting. I think they solve a real problem and they do it better than any other options out there. I definitely see them becoming a more broad use approach to dev in the future

user41796

@ThomasOwens - If you're going after that, then I want to ask for my SO swag too. :-P — GlenH7 8 secs ago

user41796

In b4 delete.

Jimmy Hoffa

that problem they solve: Having the same work environment, same code base, same tools for doing all your development tasks from coding, to task management, to committing, to CI suite execution / automated deployment / automated testing no matter where you are - with ease. Much better replacement for VPN+RemoteDesktop

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 i c wat u did thar

Is there a self-hosted cloud IDE yet?

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa how much work is it setting up all those things so that the IDE knows about them?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:25 PM

since we all live in a browser all day every day already, moving our work environment into browsers away from local machines is really a natural progression, and it gives us the abstraction over which machine we're using or what it's local environment is like (or how it's local environment changes) very well

user41796

@ThomasOwens Couldn't. Resist.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec Like I said, the browser IDEs are getting very good these days. Setting up those things is a pain no matter how you do it, doing it in one IDE or another, browser or desktop tooling, is going to be work. But the facilities are there for a variety of browser IDEs, doubt it's a great deal more work than the whole CI/deployment setup is on a desktop

Thomas Owens

From a regulatory compliance standpoint, cloud IDEs would be amazing in terms of maintaining a consistent development and integration environment

user41796

Also dropped this gem today:

user41796

-1 out of pure jealousy. :-( < Goes and sulks in a corner > — GlenH7 17 mins ago

user41796

5:27 PM

For the record, no downvote

Jimmy Hoffa

have a look at ShiftEdit, have a look at FPComplete, have a look around for browser based IDEs and see what you come up with.

It's somewhat new, but it's definitely a growing thing. Visual Studio Online for instance is a thing. Comes packaged with TFS for source control + build + automated deployment to Azure cloud etc etc

Thomas Owens

I did a search for "self hosted cloud IDE" - one came up in forum and Reddit posts, but it's not actively built anymore.

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 takes a swig out of SO coffee mug to ease the envy

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens it's kind of a bad idea and against the whole purpose of a cloud IDE: Reducing the workload for having consistent work environments. If you have to host the whole cloud and configure the entire system? Bleh on that. You're now doing just as much work as doing everything local.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox Can't. Hell. Ban. Damnit!

Jimmy Hoffa

5:30 PM

Besides, fear of cloud is such nonsense. Regulatory/compliance concerns that I've heard brought up have almost always had gaping holes in them where the people making the arguments just didn't have the technical comprehension to realize they're not holes.

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Hmm? I couldn't hear you over my awesomeness.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox CAN'T. HELL. BAN. DAMNIT!!!

user41796

Better?

Kit Z. Fox

Oh hang on, maybe I could hear you better if I take my moderator hat off.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa ITAR. EAR. Our technical product can have no foreign access. Unless these companies can ensure that no one who isn't a US citizen has access to data, we can't use the service. Plus, self-hosted means we can stand up the same tools in classified and unclassified environments.

Kit Z. Fox

5:31 PM

flexes, cracks neck

user41796

I'm gonna go sulk ....

Jimmy Hoffa

Clouds have many uses, they aren't the end all be all marketing nonsense but for a variety of purposes; largely consistency across locales, and simple temporary scaling, they're great.

Thomas Owens

Moving IDEs into the configuration controlled development environment would go a long way toward maintaining ISO 9000 / AS 9100 compliance while still letting the business IT people do whatever they want with our desktops and firewalls.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens that's the thing, there are perfectly securitized cloud servicers out there. You think they don't know how much money can be made by getting all the different security certifications for some subset of their offering? You can get guaranteed data-center localization. Also, "self-hosted" and "cloud" don't even make sense. The point of a cloud is that it can migrate around, so unless you want to create an entire data center to have 10x redundancy for your one machine, it's not a "cloud".

user41796

self-hosted cloud is just a big VM cluster

Thomas Owens

5:34 PM

@JimmyHoffa It looks like all the cloud IDEs are services. For example, there are AWS offerings approved for our use. However, these little cloud IDE companies...not really vetted from what I can tell for our security.

user41796

You can cluster across multiple machines, including across geo

Thomas Owens

Even so, we'd need a self-installed cloud IDE to put on AWS.

user41796

<-- been there, done that. Despite not having any damn SO swag

user41796

@ThomasOwens I wanna say the VMWare can migrate gracefully with Azure

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens well sure, I was just referring to cloud fear in general. Cloud IDE is still relatively new and it doesn't have the whole world. That said, FPComplete uses AWS instances which you configure with your account, and source control sources you link it to, so it doesn't actually host any of it for you.

Thomas Owens

5:37 PM

@JimmyHoffa OK. Their site was kind of vague. But something like that may work for us. Still doesn't allow us to have the same tooling in a classified environment that's not on the Internet though.

Because that's the other site to it. Just because it can handle unclassified data, we like consistent toolsets inside and outside. Fewer things to learn and such.

Kit Z. Fox

swears profusely

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens I really don't even understand what you're saying. Either way, for the minute set of scenarios where you are dealing with classified work, many things are unavailable to you- cloud or otherwise. My point earlier was about people making up regulatory/compliance concerns saying all cloud stuff is absolutely unusable which as you mentioned with AWS it's not. Other than that, sure you're working with a reduced set of options in many ways with outright classified stuff

@KitZ.Fox provocatively is better. Profusely just makes you feel better, as opposed to generating an appropriate level of disruption for the other *#$ *@@*$# @#*$ who caused you to say @*@ @#*% *$(%*$

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa There would be an approval process to get software installed in the environment. But considering we take the approach of having the same tools in both environments, anything that isn't self-installable is thrown out, even if the cloud-hosted one would be OK. I do think the policy of the same toolchains in both locations is totally appropriate, though.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox I have that effect of people

Jimmy Hoffa

Regardless, browser IDEs are a great idea and we have the technology to make them much more than an idea. I am thoroughly pleased with this plausible future.

Kit Z. Fox

5:43 PM

The project lead just shut me down in front of business.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox He was watching the room feed and saw you mocking me over the SO swag

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Yep. As they gain traction, I'm sure someone will make an installable version. Maybe someone like Atlassian.

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Probably.

user41796

I vote to kick him for it

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens ...no. No they won't. You aren't really recognizing the value proposition of them.

They lose all value as soon as you need to install them somewhere and maintain them there

We already have that

Thomas Owens

5:44 PM

How do we have that now? Isn't it better to install one cloud based IDE than a desktop IDE 60 times?

Plus, you can make sure everyone is running the same configuration.

I can see value in a cloud IDE that I install myself.

Jimmy Hoffa

That's the precise way we all work right now. We have centralized machines for doing builds and deployments and we all work with them and maintain them. This is about not having those machines.

user41796

You can get close to that today by using a thin-client within a VM cluster

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens and that's not a cloud, that's just a web browser based IDE.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa ...what's the difference?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 you can have one machine with the IDE on it and tell everyone to remote desktop it

user41796

5:45 PM

thin client will already have the IDE of your choice installed, and the VM software handles the provisioning of those clones

Thomas Owens

Cloud == network

user41796

@JimmyHoffa yep

user41796

And the image gets copied into multiple RDC targets so you don't have concurrency concerns

user41796

But it's all the same base image that's used

user41796

In a previous life we did something very similar

Jimmy Hoffa

5:46 PM

@ThomasOwens Cloud == many many machines which provide functionality consistent amongst them that makes the underlying system(s) providing the service not discernable

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa OK, I like that definition. But I can still make my own cloud.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Whenever I'm working remote I just login to my work machine using a local user I created just for this so it doesn't disrupt all the stuff I have running on my typical at-work user

@ThomasOwens if you want to get hundreds of machines and manage/maintain them and install some of the managed hosting stuff absolutely.

But you're defeating the entire purpose then of the cloud: Somebody else does it for you

Thomas Owens

Why does a cloud have to be hundreds? Why not 10? or 15?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens because then you're calling your 10-15 machines the same thing everyone else in the industry calls hundreds-to-thousands of machines?

You can do it with 10-15, but that's called a VM cluster. Doesn't provide the same level of guarantees at all. Cannot scale in remotely the same way.

Thomas Owens

I just think that cloud is a stupid thing anyway. There's no clouds anywhere. Except in the sky.

It's a stupid word.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:51 PM

True, but it does have a relatively well understood amongst devs meaning.

Oh who am I kidding. Nobody understands anything. Shoot me now.

@enderland you're welcome for the edit.

enderland

Hah

user114359

@ThomasOwens what happens when the cloud blows away? Warm fronts happen. Then your data is gone.

Jimmy Hoffa

hey cool

ymacs.org/demo

I seriously want emacs to be my OS... the way it tiles things and makes navigating without a mouse so natural is how an OS should just work. That said, I find XMonad frightening, but it's probably what I actually want at the end of the day.

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