The Whiteboard

12:00 AM

@durron597 I partially want to reply, "if you abandon your users needs don't be surprised if they abandon you" to that

user55340

> Failing that, it can feel like there is a bit of apathy floating around over issues that we, the community, feel are important. That is less than ideal when trying to nurture a community.

user55340

There's a link in there to: despair.com/collections/retired/products/apathy

user55340

durron597

Response to your response: 1. Should be tagged status-deferred. 2. Should be tagged status-review, because we know it is from my other question about this. 3. status-review or status-deferred both an improvement over now. 4. Fine, status-declined it. 5. Thank you for status-declined. I mean, why not put those responses in those questions? Why put them HERE where they won't be seen? — durron597 53 secs ago

enderland

@durron597 yeah

Ixrec

12:17 AM

this meta thread is starting to remind me of some of the infrastructure teams at work and how they don't communicate with us application developers, at all

user20683

I live on Windows

user20683

Mwhahahaha

user20683

immediately turns evil

user41796

1:02 AM

@MichaelT Did you see the dates on those posts? The most recent is 2007. I'd have to call that one dead.

user55340

@GlenH7 sigh

durron597

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 7 mins ago, by Jon Ericson

@durron597 I'm clearly not understanding your question. It seems the problem is that minor features and bugs are addressed late? There are 79 questions a day on all metas. Often the discussions and support are more pressing than feature requests and bugs. It's a bit overwhelming sometimes.

user55340

> There are 15333 open feature requests out there.
There are 11768 open feature requests without a 'status-' tag on them.
There are 10041 open feature requests without a 'status-' tag on them where a first page by reputation moderator hasn't posted an answer (and realize that you're getting animuson in that count) query
There are only 3622 open feature requests that lack a 'status-' tag on them where a first page moderator has posted an answer or commented on a post in the question or answer. query

user55340

There are an average of only five feature requests per day.

Feeds

MichaelT has stopped a feed from being posted into this room

durron597

1:04 AM

@MichaelT Time for a third answer?

user55340

@durron597 its below the fold on my second one.

user41796

@MichaelT Yeah, sorry. :-(

user55340

@GlenH7 it looked like a good blog!

durron597

@MichaelT Yeah just looked.

user41796

@MichaelT Just because it's dead doesn't mean it wasn't good.

user55340

1:07 AM

@GlenH7 It means there won't be good things showing up in the room's feed on a regular basis.

durron597

It blows me away that Stack Exchange seems to have so much bureaucracy despite its small size

user41796

@durron597 - what do you think would happen to this question if I migrated it to SO? I think it would suffer a brutal and quickly delivered death, but I don't know SO as well as you do.

user41796

@durron597 s/bureaucracy/caste system/

durron597

@GlenH7 It needs an edit and a retag, I think it would be fine, though.

user41796

Would you be able to edit it? I'm trying to shepherd any of the former embedded.se questions prior to migrating them off.

durron597

1:10 AM

@GlenH7 I don't think I have an account

I'll edit it after migration.

user41796

Okay, I'll kick it over to SO and will ping you once I've done that.

durron597

The edit it needs is just cosmetic.

user55340

@durron597 As with many social media companies (and SE is one too), it is caught between monetization and content generation. The former demands the later, but the later doesn't generate money directly. Monetization is often based on number of eyeballs rather than quality of content.

user55340

Making it more appealing for eyeballs fits better in the ROI and business plan than empowering the community that generates and maintains the quality of the content.

user41796

@durron597 - I may have caught it then

user41796

1:12 AM

But I didn't retag

user55340

The problem though is that if they fail to remain disruptive or the leader in their market (and SO was indeed disruptive), the eyeballs are fickle and will go somewhere else.

user55340

That last bit is something that every social media company will learn at some point or another. The question from that then is "how well do they recover?"

durron597

8

Q: What happens with a premature 'return' in an ISR?

I'm using AVR-GCC 4.9.2, and I would like to know what happens if I do a premature return in an ISR on an AVR? ISR(USART_RXC_vect) { ... if(idx == BUFSIZE) return; ... } Will the return be translated to a reti instruction? Or do I need to include a reti() myself? I'm look...

user55340

I suspect that SE has bitten off more than they can chew with all those small communities that are demanding of time, yet not able to be monetized. And small ones need more CM time than established ones.

user41796

@durron597 I was really on the fence for the second answer with that one. It's a little too close to being link-only, but there was a hint of an explanation along with it.

durron597

1:19 AM

@GlenH7 That's downvotable, but not mod deleteable.

IMO.

I would not have flagged it on SO.

user41796

That's where I landed too

durron597

@GlenH7 And I flagged a bunch of stuff like this today: stackoverflow.com/a/5567131/1768232

user41796

I ended up with "there's almost some decent content there, the community ought to weigh in instead of me making an arbitrary decision."

user41796

I just had the moment where I realized I have to get up O-gawd-early tomorrow morning. And I'm doing my best to forget the earlier bits of today. :-(

durron597

@GlenH7 earlier bits?

user55340

1:24 AM

@durron597 its the LSB in the date field.

user41796

@durron597 Most of the day went okay, but the afternoon kinda went downhill. I got stuck at work (much) later than I wanted, so I missed going to a cookout hosted by an ex-pat friend of mine who is currently in town. And when I got home, the contractors left an effing mess after their work today, which merely aggravated my already bad mood.

user41796

It's for the soccer team, but I have to get up a lot earlier than I would have liked tomorrow. So I'm just pissy and whiny at this point.

user41796

Filter as ~~normal~~ appropriate.

durron597

@GlenH7 Lame

I was kinda hoping for an update on the "not enough requirements" saga from the other day? (yesterday? they all blur together)

user41796

Yeah, just frustrating. Part of it was good. Today was the last day for our intern, and he hit me up for a fair amount of advice regarding college and future internships. So I really enjoyed that conversation. But the other aspects were ... annoying.

durron597

1:34 AM

@GlenH7 My recommendation is good-booze

user41796

@durron597 Already there. :-) Pretty sure I won't make it past another half-hour. Which is all good since I have to get up early.

durron597

@GlenH7 hehe

user41796

It all balances out in the end, right?

user41796

With all of the contractors I've hired and the work I have had done, I have never had to declare a contractor in breach of contract before. This has got to be one of the most aggravating things I've dealt with in a long time. At least all of the work has been done and now we're quibbling about how much will be paid.

user41796

@WorldEngineer - how's the job hunt coming along?

user20683

1:44 AM

@GlenH7 slowly, got bit by a brown recluse

user20683

I'm okay but this last week has been...painful

durron597

@GlenH7 ugh that really sucks

what was the size of the contract?

user41796

Oy! Sorry to hear that. That's one of my nightmare type ~~bytes~~ bites.

user41796

I only kept the strikethrough because that's the original version I typed. <--- Geek.

user41796

My son got bit by something nasty many moons back. Took a long, long time to get that infection under control and the scar somewhat cleaned up.

user20683

1:47 AM

@GlenH7 mine seems pretty okay

user20683

like it's a nice little blood blister thing but damned if it doesn't hurt/make me tired

user41796

That's goodness, in a way. We don't know what bit him, but the inflamed area easily cleared the size of a half-dollar at its worst. And it took many rounds of antibiotics to kill it all off. And then there was the follow-up with the prescription grade antibiotic creams.

user41796

Hey ~~@Ampt~~, I mean our favorite sock puppet. How are things?

user41796

(sweet, the markdown worked)

user20683

@GlenH7 mine's maybe about the size of a quarter

user20683

1:51 AM

and I've got a massively belligerent immune system

user41796

I'd call that good. The bite area on him is still a bit of a mess almost a year later.

user41796

And "apropros of nothing" if what I suggested in an out-of-chat channel seems interesting, let me know and I can answer whatever questions you may have.

user41796

<--- Apparently Glen killed the conversation....

user20683

@GlenH7 blame @AshleyNunn

user41796

@WorldEngineer But I like @AshleyNunn. I mean, not in the way you do, but I still like her.

Jimmy Hoffa

2:04 AM

@MichaelT used to have a boss who let his voicemail fill up and just left it filled on purpose so he could avoid dealing with folks

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Isn't that a tech / dev type move?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I did that at Employer^^^. At Employer, no one uses voice mail because the voice mail password is a minimum of 10 digits with other annoying rules.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT it's been years since I've used voice mail, I've alternately unplugged my phone and left it that way, or ignored the blinking light that said I had voicemail

user20683

No professor in STEM uses voicemail that I know of

Jimmy Hoffa

every job they give you a deskphone and instructions for voice mail which I promptly ignore, only paying mind to the phone to see if the computer is wired through it like a switch instead of straight to the wall to fix that first thing

user55340

2:15 AM

Motörhead frontman Lemmy has switched from whiskey to vodka for health reasons

user55340

> He also suffers from diabetes, but he’s found an interesting way to combat the illness; instead of his usual Jack Daniels and coke, Lemmy has switched to vodka and orange juice in order to stay healthy.

user41796

@MichaelT I'm gonna have to have a little bit more bourbon in his honor then.

user41796

@MichaelT He ought to drink it straight up then.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 gods no, that will just make everything go bad way too fast, at least half and half with water. Tastes better that way anyhow.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa You don't even like bourbon IIRC

user41796

2:23 AM

Too sweet, if I'm right.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa @GlenH7 Initial testing verifies capabilities with regards to particle handling

user20683

Sandboxie

Sandboxie is a sandbox-based isolation program developed by Invincea (which acquired it from the original author Ronen Tzur), for 32- and 64-bit Windows NT-based operating systems. It creates a sandbox-like isolated operating environment in which applications can be run or installed without permanently modifying the local or mapped drive. An isolated virtual environment allows controlled testing of untrusted programs and web surfing. == History == Version 3.36 added partial 32-bit Windows 7 compatibility, for build 7000. Version 3.38 adds additional Windows 7 support, for build 7100. Version 3...

user20683

Also this is a very useful thing

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Jack isn't bourbon and doesn't taste like bourbon; I rather like Jack (especially the single barrel - so smokey)

user41796

2:39 AM

Jack's whiskey, no doubt.

user41796

bourbon is whiskey too, just made in kentucky. :-)

Robert Harvey

At the Jack Daniel distillery, bourbon is apparently what they call it before it goes through the charcoal filtering and aging process.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Can you finish deleting the last two legal questions on SO before roomba script runs?

They're both utter trainwrecks.

Robert Harvey

I'm on mobile, but I'll do what I can.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Both already have many community delete votes, just not quite enough. stackoverflow.com/q/256318/1768232 stackoverflow.com/q/3368986/1768232

Robert Harvey

2:53 AM

Done.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Thank you so much!!

7 minutes to spare.

food and booze time, good night, thanks again Robert

Robert Harvey

What happens if the script runs before the last two legal questions get deleted?

Does someone get sued?

user55340

The tag cleanup script will (should) delete the tag soon making it that much harder for new users to try to tag something in a way they would think is on topic.

user20683

3:12 AM

news.utexas.edu/2015/08/12/…

Ampt

3:55 AM

@RobertHarvey That tour was awesome. It was crazy to see all those barrels and then have them point out the extreme number of buildings they had. Sooooo much whiskey.

Duga

6:08 AM

Then it's time for you to learn. This site is intended to be used by programmers. If you don't know how to write code, and learn, then it's not for you. You need to hire a programmer in that case. — David Heffernan 20 secs ago

gnat

9:25 AM

0

A: Provide 10k users more close votes

According to the data, of 464 users who can vote to close, 35 have hit the limit at least once: days ---- 583 488 176 68 31 27 21 13 12 10 10 ... (35 row(s) returned) For reference, 19 of those users have at least 10k reputation as of today. Just two users have run ...

status-deferred. Initial evaluation based on funny assumption that site gets 28 q/day

@gnat: True enough. Counting deleted questions, the site gets ~46 questions a day. But if you similarly count deleted questions on other sites, Programmers still falls short of Android Enthusiasts and all the sites above it. Deleted questions also don't explain why such a small number of users on this site have had trouble running out of close votes. — Jon Ericson ♦ 1 hour ago

Johan Larsson

I'm not sure about the closing culture on SE

What % of the questions with more than 20 upvotes on programmers are closed for example?

Ixrec

@JohanLarsson PSE had a massive scope change, so this is the one site where that stat is completely invalid

Johan Larsson

maybe

I see many questions with high upvote count on SO that are closed also.

of course I see many really poor questions also

Ixrec

a cursory search tells me that 2,888 questions are >=20, and 1,195 of those are closed or locked in some form

Johan Larsson

nice search

Ixrec

9:33 AM

we also had a weird series of very popular yet blatantly terrible/off-topic questions, so score >= 20 doesn't necessarily indicate...anything really

Johan Larsson

> 20 indicates that > 20 have found it good | useful | funny | ?? enough for an upvote.

Ixrec

tbh I wasn't sure about the "closing culture" when I first became active either

but it wasn't long before I noticed that the types of questions the CVers descend on were consistently getting either poor answers, or answers that boiled down to opinion polls no matter how eloquently each opinion was being expressed

gnat

> we discovered that these posts... truly start to drown out everything else on the site... it's too addictive and too easy, and in the absence of any moderation, the community would do nothing but add and upvote the easy, fun stuff. This is why community moderators have real power; they need that power to intervene, educate, and refocus the community's exuberance on more substantive content...

Stack Overflow tried to co-exist with these "funny", "popular" questions and failed. Failing that, they tried to off-load these to a dedicated site. And that failed, too. "We already tried supporting those questions, we even gave them their own site. Sadly, it didn't work out..."

Ixrec

programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/16/… is a classic example of this, it's a legitimate question but overly broad and depends entirely on the company and the project, and the accepted answer while useful isn't actually even answering the question as asked; as is typically the case the questions of this sort that get good answers do so when an answerer decides to reinterpret the question as something far more constructive

which of course is not normally what happens

gnat

9:50 AM

@Ixrec right, and it would be more beneficial for site if reinterpreting the question was an edit to it, to prevent more troublesome answers from polluting it. And for that to be practical, question would better be closed quickly, before piling on answers lock it from any substantial edits. After getting into shape, question would get reopened to let answers get in

24

A: Do you wait for edits before voting to close a question?

When I sense a good question buried within a vague wording, I for one try to get it closed as soon as possible. Thing is, vague wording is a road to closure anyway but while open, it can attract irrelevant answers which will make it difficult (as explained here) to further edit the question into...

Ixrec

exactly, it's supposed to be on the OP to edit the question into something answerable, rather than having the answerers compete for the best reinterpretation of it

I think there's actually quite a few askers that have an answerable question but are just really bad at asking and need extra guidance

gnat

@Ixrec it could even be potential answerers themselves, if the question would be closed and the only way to get there would be to improve and reopen. Aggressive Edits...

Ixrec

@gnat yep, I've done this once or twice, and there's a badge for it

but usually the question problem is one that only the OP can fix, because it's about their problem definition missing details, or lacking context or whatever

gnat

@Ixrec ...and I did that too once or twice. Edit - reopen - answer

though it was more frequently edit - reopen - let others answer. Not that I complain :)

Ixrec

but Johan hasn't said anything in a while so I think we're officially in an echo chamber and need to go do something else

gnat

9:54 AM

@Ixrec yeah, like closing some questions :)

Ixrec

I like how he literally leaves right when I say that

Ixrec

10:05 AM

maybe if we ever manage to finish cleaning up all the broken windows we should shift focus to thinking about how to edit as many of the typical questions as possible into answerability; a lot of the "junk" we get is legitimate questions and I often feel (as do the newbies) that there must be some way of extracting value out of them without ruining the site

gnat

@Ixrec I think 10-20% of questions that get closed and survive roomba deletions can be improved and reopened. Maybe even more, if we put lots of effort into this

8

Q: Where and how to improve questions?

This bit came up in chat the other day: more discussion needs to happen on meta regarding question x and how to make it better A quick search can find it, but I'm not going to link it to bring up the full context and discussion in chat - because I do want it to be rehashed here. Occasional...

discussion closed-questions questions participation

Ixrec

I was waiting for the review queue to show me a good example but it didn't and SFF chat distracted me

I'd consider throwing out more ideas or piloting more up-to-date meta questions on the subject, but I know I don't have the time to follow through on such efforts; SE is low on my priority list

Ixrec

10:35 AM

wow, we missed this one:

1

Q: reduce vs for loop for returning boolean

I was wondering what people think about using a reduce function vs loop for returning true if a condition exists. example: var a = [1, 5, 7, 4, 2, 5, 3]; var greaterThan5 = a.reduce(function(prev, val) { return (prev || val > 5); }, false); vs var greaterThan5 = false; for(var i = 0; i <...

functional-programming loops

asked today, just saw it on the HNQ list, is clearly an opinion poll, no close votes...blargh

gnat

11:27 AM

@Ixrec "if you want to drop the off-topic question from the hot list, 1) try to get it closed sooner, 2) vote down and 3) abstain of answering..." (How can I get people to join a site and not simply glance and pass it by? :)

Ixrec

11:48 AM

@gnat that's pretty much what I did

gnat

12:28 PM

yeah, and it has dropped off the HNQ list

bikeshedding about for loop in an interview is now eligible for deletion. Just sayin'

user55340

2:41 PM

@gnat pink backgrounded

gnat

@MichaelT "in the absence of any moderation, the community would do nothing but add and upvote the easy, fun stuff. This is why community moderators have real power; they need that power to intervene, educate, and refocus the community's exuberance on more substantive content..." :) Guess I am now ready to requalify from MichaelT's bot to Atwood's bot

user55340

3:49 PM

@WorldEngineer could you mod message this user about the proper way to use the site?

user20683

4:35 PM

@enderland Interview question idea: "What is the laziest thing you've ever done?"

enderland

@WorldEngineer :)

World of Warships is one game I am seriously considering buying

Telastyn

it out yet?

enderland

It's in public test

user20683

so decision time

user20683

I can now use C# fully if I so desire

user20683

4:46 PM

been a good while since I actively used Java too

enderland

hrrmmm, its [world of warships] windows only

user20683

@enderland not an issue anymore :)

user20683

ah

Telastyn

okay, last I saw it was private beta

enderland

my windows partition is way too small too

since it requires TWENTY GIGS

Telastyn

4:50 PM

that is a lot of gigs.

/me promptly downloads

enderland

Hah

WWII naval history is one subject I absolutely love

Telastyn

likewise.

dad was a big wargaming buff

enderland

I've read an absurd number of wiki articles of ship bios :)

reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/new/

that's a nice place on reddit too

Telastyn

we had a few Jane's growing up.

enderland

Yeah

Maybe I can use this as an excuse to upgrade my 2010 13" macbook pro :P

user20683

4:55 PM

@enderland pity you're not a student. They are including a free pair of beats with the current student bundle

enderland

@WorldEngineer oh you missed the drama yesterday.... though I'd much rather an ipod than beats

user20683

@enderland yes, I'm not as around lately due to work and other things

user20683

care to fill me in?

enderland

Our university on-campus store actually offered apple products at educational pricing, and then no sales tax either

I am in the process of finishing my masters, still, and am running into red tape and a less-than-helpful adviser

user20683

@enderland ah

user20683

4:58 PM

yeah we had a tax holiday at the end of July

enderland

It's been a saga that will. not. end

user20683

@enderland yes it goes on and on my friend. Enderland started it not knowing what it was and he'll continue learning it forever just because...this is the degree that does not end, yes it goes on an on my friend...

enderland

lol, something like that :)

user20683

The Song That Doesn't End

►

enderland

5:14 PM

just not sure I can stomach spending that much on a computer I'll hardly need...

durron597

0

A: Can we have a guaranteed pipeline for responses from Stack Exchange?

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I think that sentence summarizes the communication disconnect between the community and Stack Exchange on this issue. Here are some excerpts: This came up a couple of weeks ago. (I think in the podcast room?) We might end up doing something li...

Duga

5:30 PM

Should this question be somehow migrated to Programmers.StackExchange or similar? — armadadrive 59 secs ago

durron597

@Duga Neat, I didn't know you looked at answer comments

enderland

> $2,299.00

I feel like that's just too much for a computer...

ratchet freak

6:18 PM

you can get a good one for half that (last I checked)

user20683

@enderland what university are you at?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak way the hell cheaper than that..

user20683

I got mine for like 400 in 2011

user20683

it was 4 years old at the time

user20683

needed more ram but that's a cheap thing

enderland

6:27 PM

@ratchetfreak I like Macs which... is a spendy habit if I buy their nicest one :P

@WorldEngineer edit

user20683

@enderland purged

enderland

:) I have learned my lessons on editing prior to either deleting/purging :P

Are there windows laptops which have similar build quality to macs? that's one of the main reasons I like macs

user20683

@enderland They can be

enderland

it feels solid, and has a great trackpad

My 5 year old laptop still feels nearly brand new for build quality and nearly looks it

user20683

the Asus I have isn't metal but it feels pretty solid for a piece of plastic

enderland

6:31 PM

and it's gotten a tooon of use

user20683

it's keyboard is basically identical in feel to a macs

enderland

hmm

I do like the Mac OS, a fair bit, but I'm not at all that OMG MAC 4 LYFE NO MATTER WHAT type

because those folks DO exist :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland tons, and for much cheaper.

I have to wonder how many non-apple systems mac fans have gotten on their own..

user20683

@JimmyHoffa most Mac users I've run into are artists or designers

user20683

it's about Photoshop and Illustrator for them

user20683

6:42 PM

and Final Cut

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer which explains zilch because all of that runs identically on windows; I suspect they've never had windows to know. They're just claiming their appreciation for something they've never compared to anything except in their minds

user20683

@JimmyHoffa it's tradition in the design community. Macs had the market cornered for a long, long while

user20683

I'm not saying it's a "rational" choice

Ixrec

iirc a lot of those apps were Mac-only for a while

user20683

@Ixrec correct

Jimmy Hoffa

6:43 PM

@Ixrec yes, I realize this; but that while was up ages ago

Ixrec

at some point it's more about the hassle of switching than anything else (which is also the main reason Windows is so popular)

Jimmy Hoffa

I was using photoshop and illustrator for web design on windows machines back in '98

user20683

Clients expect artsy types to have macs

Ixrec

for instance, the only reason I still have an iPhone is because...it hasn't broken yet

user20683

at times anyway

Ixrec

6:44 PM

so why bother switching to Android when my iPhone still works

our UX people at work also have Macs, I remember finding that funny at first

user20683

@Ixrec like I said, design :P

user20683

why do people use Macs is like asking "why do people still use Java?"

user20683

except that Macs are way better than Java

Ixrec

Mac v PC probably has more effect on the end user experience than Java vs whatever does

user20683

@Ixrec truth

user20683

6:50 PM

I suspect Linux would gain more market share if Linus wasn't such an asshole

Ixrec

and these days the functionality of all three OSes is basically the same (from a typical user's point of view) so there's very little reason for anyone to go out of their way to switch

user20683

like he's a smart guy but he doesn't filter himself the way Jobs or Gates did

user20683

@Ixrec with the except of higher end gaming, yes

Ixrec

@WorldEngineer that's more an issue of software being made for only one OS than the OSes themselves being better

user20683

@Ixrec it's more DirectX is actually sane

user20683

6:52 PM

OpenGL...is...well...it's kinda special

Ixrec

@WorldEngineer do explain

user20683

397

Q: Why do game developers prefer Windows?

Is it that DirectX is easier or better than OpenGL, even if OpenGL is cross-platform? Why do we not see real powerful games for Linux like there are for Windows?

windows linux game-development opengl directx

user20683

we have an answer for that :D

Ixrec

I remember that answer, what I got out of it is that it's lots and lots of history and politics and inertia and FUD and not much to do with technical merits

but I'm only familiar with OpenGL because I don't want to ever write platform-dependent code if I can avoid it, so I have no idea what Direct3D is like

user20683

@Ixrec There is an new wrinkle in that whole thing and that's Vulkan

user55340

6:56 PM

@WorldEngineer Its not that Linus is an ass, but rather the community doesn't recognize it is a priority.

user20683

@MichaelT He's still more caustic than he needs to be

user55340

When Bill or Steve said "do this", the entire company and associated industry went along with them because, well, they had the power to force the company to do it and the company had the power to force a significant fraction of the industry.

user55340

When Linus says something, its "meh... I'm not interested in doing that"

user55340

However much power he has over the Linux kernel, he cannot force the open source developers to actually get with it and make a desktop environment that doesn't suck for more than one revision.

user20683

@MichaelT true enough

user55340

6:59 PM

And then you get fractions between KDE vs Gnome or whatever the desktop in vogue is today... and Gnome figurehead A vs Gnome figurehead B...

Ixrec

not to mention that, unless you're actively looking for it, you'll simply never see any computers that come with Linux by default rather than Windows or Mac OS

user55340

On the other hand, Apple has the "That interface sucks, get rid of it" cultofmac.com/246312/… by firing the person who advocated for it at the C level.

Ixrec

the fact that Linux is something you have to install, while Windows is not, is a pretty huge disadvantage right from the start

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT You mean like new major releases of Windows do?

@Ixrec You don't have to install Windows? Only because it comes with every new PC.

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey yes, that is what I just said

Robert Harvey

7:02 PM

Someone told me that, prior to browsers being self-updating, the most common time users upgraded their browser is when they bought a new machine.

I might have heard it in here.

Ixrec

that's probably true of all software

user55340

You also need to disentangle the cult of Free (as in beer) software from Linux. If everyone expects everything to be Free (as in beer), companies trying to make higher quality software that cost money don't succeed there (compare Google vs Apple app markets)

Ixrec

let's face it, 99% of updates have no value to any of us, except the silent thankless benefits of security fixes

user55340

When dealing with Windows, I would have paid for a good, high 23.

user55340

0

user55340

7:04 PM

Cat on keyboard...

user55340

Ok, when dealing with Linux I would have paid for a good, high quality word processor and spread sheet.

user55340

Libra office is nice, but I want better, I want better presentation, I want the grouping and hiding of rows to work consistently... and I'm willing to pay something for it.

Ixrec

oh, you're enough of a power user to notice quality differences between Libra Office and real Office

user55340

Yep. conditional formatting, odic - database connection for update of data and everything in my toolbox up to actually touching VB.

user55340

Shoot, I've got office on my mac for things where pages / numbers doesn't cut it.

Robert Harvey

7:08 PM

[need visio on my work computer]

I used to have an MSDN subscription at NASA. I could get whatever I wanted.

Ixrec

at work everything has to be approved anyway so I generally consider those decisions as out of my hands

user55340

The thing is I can't get the software that a desktop business user needs on Linux. I can't even pay for it - it doesn't exist. If you try to raise the issue on Libre forums, you get something along the lines of "here's the source - you can fix it too" - and that is the attitude from the community that is toxic to actually making Linux a viable desktop system.

Ixrec

though people coming from other companies often have strong enough opinions that they bother to ask for things to get approved; maybe I'm weird in that I'm a power user of almost nothing

enderland

8:16 PM

@Ixrec when I bought this computer almost 5 years ago it was the only computer in my price range that had what I was looking for in hardware - not just specs, but hardware (especially trackpad quality)

@MichaelT you are way more polite than I am towards people with ridiculously bad off topic stuff

user55340

I would suspect it is fair to consider my politeness in such cases to be patronizing instead. I want them to realize that it is fundamentally wrong and should probably go away as they won't find what they are looking for here at all.

user55340

patronizing

Adjective: patronizing ‎(comparative more patronizing, superlative most patronizing)

offensively condescending

Verb: patronizing

present participle of patronize...

user55340

I like the mac define version a bit better.

user55340

Ixrec

@MichaelT even if it is patronizing, you're way better at those comments than gnat

2

user55340

8:27 PM

I blame my Catholic school experience.

user55340

I mean, if I wanted to be mean I would have suggested asking in the Lounge.

Ixrec

I make an effort to leave personalized, polite comments on bad questions too, though I can only do so many

enderland

he looks q blocked on SO too

@Ixrec I don't on the hopeless cases, I actually flagged that one as VLQ

Ixrec

assuming they're "bad" in a "he just doesn't know how SE works" way and not in a "oh god my eyes why" way

enderland

I mean seriously? "Help me compile this C# C++ code on Visual Studio"

user55340

8:28 PM

One more close vote and I can start using my 20k votes.

Ixrec

@enderland yes, that was oh god my eyes bad

@MichaelT on which one?

user55340

-5

Q: Why do i keep getting error C2440?

I am using virtual studio to compile my c# code but it keeps giving me error c2440. How can i fix this? Heres the lnk to my code. http://pastebin.com/niM0PFwt

c#

user55340

@MichaelT I'm currently reading this book and this is what led me to such a question :) thanks for the helpful answer and comment — Jivan 1 min ago

user55340

Whee! Someone is actually reading a good book on the subject!

Ixrec

I'm just glad someone who knew about COCOMO finally saw that question, I've been wondering all day if it needed a POB close vote

user55340

8:32 PM

Its really no different than the IEEE requirement documents question - just a different area of knowledge.

user55340

> How do I use this well established methodology?

user55340

COCOMO tries to go from a SLOC estimation to time estimation.

user55340

It works reasonably when you've got single languages (a giant C or C++ project) but starts to fall apart when you've got modern polyglot programming.

user55340

To get an idea of it, toss numbers into csse.usc.edu/tools/COCOMOII.php

user55340

Some of the knobs are team knobs, but others are technology...

user55340

8:35 PM

and if you were great at JavaScript but ok at Python... how do you rate that in the "Language and Toolset Experience"

Ixrec

plus, a very significant percentage of our C++ code is auto-generated

user55340

You don't count auto generated code. You count the code you write.

Ixrec

I probably should've seen that coming

user55340

If I have a WSDL that I build (generated) from some XML (code I wrote) that builds some Java (generated) - I need to count the XML as part of the calculation but not the WSDL or Java.

Ixrec

oh cool, it's not just us doing the XML into codegenner thing

user55340

8:39 PM

20k votes ahoy! (@amon you can join in that fun)

durron597

@MichaelT I just spammed the other chatroom with a lot of cv-pls

user55340

gnat

@PeterTaylor Brit style politeness is one I find to be especially helpful here. The worse the post, the harder I aim to criticize, the more polite I want my message to appear, to avoid being distracted by whining about "negativity", "rudeness", "personally targeted downvotes". Lazy suckers dropping their thoughtless dumps at us surprisingly tend to put much more effort into complaining about "unfair treatment" and I try to do my best to avoid wasting my time messing with that — gnat Oct 9 '14 at 6:47

^^^ I replaced word "blatant with "outright" when one of 'em complained at meta that "blatant" sounds rude

amon

@MichaelT I don't want to get too involved in site moderation – I'll gladly close anything closeworthy I see, but I don't have the energy to regularly go through the queues or participate in anything like STCI.

user55340

@amon its more a "you could join in on the 20k delete votes on that steaming pile of C2440 error that appeared."

user55340

8:47 PM

One of my "speedy delete" bits (that I acknowledge isn't for everyone) is that by deleting the unredeemable faster (not waiting for the roomba) we are able to give a bit more time to the ok and good questions that we do get on the 'Newest questions' listing.

Ixrec

@amon one benefit of the new cv-please chatroom is that you don't have to look through the questions yourself, just evaluate what the more energetic people post there

gnat

@MichaelT me and @Snowman are usually catching up 2 days after you cast it (you probably already noticed)

user55340

12 out of the current 50 newest questions are at closed and -3 or lower. Deleting them means that thats 12 more from the second page still show up here.

amon

@MichaelT Oh that. Done

gnat

though today it was Oded who followed your speedy delete votes :)

enderland

8:50 PM

@amon but HOW WILL HE EVER FIND OUT HOW

user55340

Two speedy delete votes makes it that much easier for a mod to justify casting a third vote (which they could have if they weren't mods and still had speedy deletes). Two speedy deletes makes it that much less 'mod fiat deletions' which get hackles raised from various quarters.

user55340

(and gives me more ammunition for the "refund same day closed and deleted questions")

durron597

All but one of the remaining books tag has at least one CV. Please go to town on them. Review link You can find links to them in Programmers CV-Please

take it easy everyone

enderland

Casting a Fire Ant Colony with Molten Aluminum (Cast #043)

►

MetaFight

@enderland it's widely considered the Pompei of ants.

Duga

11:54 PM

Isn't this a whiteboard question? i.e. Programmers? (inb4 "how dare you recommend this go on Programmers") — Lightness Races in Orbit just now

Transcript for