The Whiteboard

3:01 PM

@enderland perhaps your manager who did learn it will rise to that level later in life and carry the lesson with him. Either way, if you hide the mistakes of folk doing work - they'll never get better at the work they do.

Lightness Races in Orbit

52 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit

(both are per year)

@Ampt I put on waaaaay more than the average too. 52k or so

hang on how can it be that much

oh yeah 13k hehe

Jimmy Hoffa

haha

Lightness Races in Orbit

so I drive about as much as the average American

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's 52k Km right?

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit eh, not the average employed american. Average working commuter drives 15 miles each way 5 days a week. 5 * 10 = 50 + (5 * 5) = 75 * 2 = 150 * 52 = 10 * 150 * 5 = 1500 * 5 = 5000 + (5 * 500) = 7500 per year just to and from work

Ampt

3:07 PM

@enderland I'm imagining you inserting two keys into a panel and flipping them both at once to start the operational countdown

but both of them are juuuust far enough apart that you really have to stretch to reach it

enderland

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ampt no, miles

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit ah ok

Lightness Races in Orbit

83.6Mm

Ampt

Your units are useless!

Lightness Races in Orbit

3:09 PM

what

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt at Employer^^^ we had a screen in the middle of the cube farm hooked up to some little nothing machine someone setup with a little application that would flip between various countdowns. Usually it was since last release and to next release and since first go-live and since last downtime and stuff like that just random neat things, sometimes people would add countdowns for silly stuff though "Since last drunken outing" or "Until the end of the world" (mayan calendar date)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa ok so, less than me.

@Ampt Megametres!

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's just to and from work. That doesn't account for the many other things they must do

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit So you did drive 51k Miles?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa I'm going off the statistics that I quoted earlier (that you then quoted again later)

@Ampt I said yes...

Jimmy Hoffa

3:10 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit remember the per-age stats I pointed out

compare yourself to your american cohort.

Ampt

8 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit

oh yeah 13k hehe

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa no

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yep.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ampt sdiuhgfksuaygdaksudfa

I will try this again :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Happy coffee day!

Ampt

3:11 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit This is why we can't have nice things

Lightness Races in Orbit

(good time for Google to go down)

I put on about 13k miles (20.9 Megametres) per year, so I drive about as much as the average American.

Jimmy Hoffa

OH hey it's Friday!

enderland

ITS FRIDAY FRIDAY GOTTA GET DOWN ON FRIDAY

3

Jimmy Hoffa

Mathematics

@JimmyHoffa that sounds like a good advise !

Jimmy Hoffa

3:16 PM

@Telastyn there is a rational partition you can construct based on queryable records for someone querying? If so I think I have a plausible solution.. Depending on the size of that group- would it be reasonable to load just that group into memory temporarily?

Telastyn

define temporarily

I mean the full dataset of searchable fields will be in the few-hundred meg range at worst.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn for all records or per record O_O

Telastyn

for the entire searchable set.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn What you can do is come up with a cache-size-constraint and evict-on-add where you know you're missing records based on the querying user: They can see records 1400-1500, those aren't in the queryset, dequeue the last group and enqueue 1400-1500. Subsequence queries by that user will have cache-hits

Telastyn

sorry, don't follow.

Lightness Races in Orbit

3:21 PM

that's likely because you do not have sufficient scotch

Jimmy Hoffa

that's based on having the concept of partitioning records to querying users (User A can see record group A), and then you cache groups of records as such.

Telastyn

where? it's a distributed system and tossing PHI in a distributed cache seems not a great idea.

Jimmy Hoffa

User A tries to query, record group A is in the in-memory-cache, cache hit: It searches his record group based on his query info. User B tries to query, record group B is not in the in-memory cache and the in-memory cache is at it's size-limit for group-count. Evict record group A and add record group B. (eviction should be FIFO)

Ah distribution tricks it up a touch. You could use redis or some such..

Telastyn

right, but redis stores to disk, so no unencrypted PHI allowed.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn optional. Memcached doesn't store to disk also.

(unless I'm mistaken, you can turn off journaling in redis I do believe..)

Telastyn

3:24 PM

don't they also require queries by fixed key? We'd have to pull the entire record group in-memory to search it

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn that said, the "add to memory" process would be expensive but doable if you: Hash each searchable field as an each-character-hash. It would bloat like crazy which is why you'd want to only add groups of records at a time rather than all records. It may expose hash specifics but so long as all hashing is done internally - is that a sincere concern? It still protects the PHI per HIPAA

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit oh, I thought you had put on 51k miles this year.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit throw new InsufficientScotchException();

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn they do. You could do it in RDBMS: User comes into the query page, you immediately evict the oldest hashed record group from a hashed-query-structures section of the DB, and shuffle hashed versions of his queryable data into it.

Telastyn

nod

Jimmy Hoffa

Hash the column name along with the data and you wouldn't need to make it too complex:
EntityTable(EntityId, FirstName, LastName)
HashTable(Hash, EntityId)
Hash <- SHA('FirstName' + entityTable.FirstName)

then when they query on "FirstName" it salts the hash the same.

Thomas Owens

3:31 PM

So I just talked to my boss about the salary difference. Just gave me the "internal equity" line. Honestly, I don't care what everyone else makes, if they aren't monitoring their salary on their own and shopping around.

There shouldn't be internal equity. It's a dumb concept. People who work hard and take on more responsibilities and do things (like monitor their compensation) should get paid more than people who don't.

Telastyn

but that would have to happen for each substring

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn which is why it would be important to have some predictable set for a given user - hopefully a shared set so 8 users all come in and have the same set and you would have to add/evict less

you would need to do that to ween down the number of records you have to load there. Alternatively: Amortize it and juts except that HashTable will be stupidly huge, and just fill it the hell up. RDBMS can handle huge data sets when they're simply structured.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens dust off the resume!

Telastyn

so we would have... 30k user groups with a few thousand records per group. Probably not the best for this approach, but doable.

"internal equity"?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn MBA translation: We already got you bitch; sit down and shutup.

Ampt

3:35 PM

@Telastyn they're paying him less, because, on average, they pay everyone less.

enderland

it's not fair to pay him more!

Telastyn

is that private stock options?

Ampt

if they paid him fair market, they have to pay everyone fair market.

which, they clearly don't want to do.

Telastyn

sorry, the labor market extends beyond your walls.

Ampt

sounds like a good way to ensure you're hiring "The people passed over in the search of the best people"

Telastyn

3:36 PM

no shit.

Ampt

"We only hire the best" - then you better pay the best.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn not in the minds of MBA's who believe the subservience of us is a sign of our actually being their property :/

Ampt

the disconnect there in the free market is hilarious.

Telastyn

yes, well. There is an easy way to emancipate yourself.

"Screw you guys, I'm going home."

Ampt

wait, let @enderland say it - he is TWP mod

@enderland could we get your thoughts on the matter?

enderland

3:37 PM

you could grovel before your corporate overloards

Ampt

...

enderland

wait wrong response :P

Thomas Owens

Also, my point is that I make less than the median salary...I think I far outperform the average software engineer of my age, experience, and company tenure.

I'm not an exceptional software engineer. But I think at least average, if not above average.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens then it's time to look for a place that values you as such

clearly the current place won't

Thomas Owens

Well, I'm meeting with the HR partner for Engineering next. Don't know when.

Maybe HR can override the internal equity thing. Maybe this is how adjustments happen - one person complains, gets bumped up, and everyone goes for the ride.

Telastyn

3:41 PM

that does happen

Thomas Owens

But I've seen the labor requirements for 2016...if I leave, projects are screwed.

Telastyn

but companies like that will bump the least amount possible, because employees are a cost.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn do a query that finds the largest record (longest strings to be queried by summation of all of them), then generate a hash at every character length (or every 2 characters) and just see how much data you just created. 100 records? 1000 records? then multiple that by the average group-size and ponder how big the table will be.

Thomas Owens

As in...multiple projects. At least two.

Telastyn

@JimmyHoffa - it's all theoretical now. Greenfield project with 0 users.

Thomas Owens

3:42 PM

Not to mention the process improvement work I take on - they'll have to staff that as well as hire at least one or two people to replace me.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens I think you are about to talk into the bear's den. Do not have those types of conversations with HR unless you want to suddenly find yourself "lacking" in performance and somehow black marks show in your file before you get put on a PIP... do not mistake to think company's act based on what's best for their productivity. If they did; they wouldn't have that stupid rule to begin with.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa A PIP? I pretty much have project leads and engineers on my side here, from some out of work conversations.

My manager wants to do more, but can't break internal equity.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens and that means what to HR? You're just making yourself more dangerous in their eyes by garnering support from others.

you appear to misunderstand the role of HR..

Thomas Owens

I am dangerous.

Jimmy Hoffa

hahaha

Thomas Owens

3:45 PM

I'm one-deep in a lot of things that have a lot of visibility.

And worked my way onto two of the most critical projects for the company.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens visibility isn't what makes folk dangerous, it's invisibility. HR can do anything they want and nobody ever see's it. Regardless of all that; just start getting your hands into other opportunities before you go around risking your job

Then again, you're single without family so you get canned it won't be the end of the world

Thomas Owens

I've got plenty of savings, too. Well, enough for several months of rent + bills. Maybe 8 months. I can get a job in far less time than that.

And, apparently, a significantly higher paying job, too.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens not if you're unemployed :P

Fired on a PIP: Best of luck getting that raise then... You risk significantly less just moving the hell on, and you have wayyyy more to gain. (Even if you get a bump where you are, it wouldn't compare to what you can get moving)

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa I'd prefer to stay here.

Aside from the underpaying, I'm working on cool stuff, and get to do everything - technical and process improvement. Even owning a product now.

Ampt

    private static void createVendorClassCodes(Resource resource){
	/* SNIP */

        return;
    }

sigh

enderland

3:54 PM

@Ampt feature implemented. add a bug report!

Ampt

@enderland This is the old code we now have to massage into working for another 8 months until the contract is up while they attempt to rebuild their whole site in drupal

there was a reason the redesign was also a rewrite from scratch

Duga

Since you don't have a specific coding question, this post may be more appropriate for the Programmers SE — CubeJockey 46 secs ago

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ampt lol

Thomas Owens

4:13 PM

So, if I leave where I am now, how do I get a promotion? The next step up is something like a lead software engineer or software project manager or something. But all of those seem to want existing lead experience.

Do I just go for a lateral transfer out and then work on up?

Ampt

@ThomasOwens I would aim for the Lead position

maybe use the excuse that you're ready, but your current company was lacking in positions available so you looked externally

Thomas Owens

OK, sounds good.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens either or. Regardless; the hell would you want a lead position for?

Dec 7 at 16:08, by MichaelT

Managers get lobotomies that remove all code knowledge.

Thomas Owens

Amazon, Facebook, and Red Hat are all local and hiring. I may start applying this weekend for things.

@JimmyHoffa I think you said it - process improvement and definition happens at project manager levels.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens You want to get out of the gov't contractor spot?

Jimmy Hoffa

4:15 PM

@Ampt eyeing his spot while his seat is still warm or something?

Thomas Owens

@Ampt If they are underpaying me from market median because of "internal equity", yeah. Well, I'd like to stay in defense. But I should be making about 12k/year more than I am now.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa No, It's just that from where I'm sitting, he has more value to another government contracting company due to his experience in the field and any credentials he has

a lot of the hard engineering stuff he does now might not apply as much outside the bureaucracy that is our government

Thomas Owens

@Ampt It looks like to get the next level up position at BAE, Raytheon, MITRE, etc, I need 5+ years of team lead positions. Not sure if it's worth applying with 0.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt is true. Also for the type of stuff he wants to do (process) - Gov is going to be a better fit. They have more interesting things to do on that front as well as taking it seriously and just being overall more stable employers in a variety of ways

Ampt

@ThomasOwens The only thing you've got to lose is time

Thomas Owens

4:20 PM

If I stay in government/defense, it's going to be lateral. If I go private, I may be able to sell myself up.

Jimmy Hoffa

Most of the private sector makes a vestigial display of process

Ampt

@ThomasOwens nah, don't count yourself out yet. Apply for the lead position and see if you can fit

remember, the reqs on job applications are more "nice to haves" than "necessities"

Thomas Owens

Yeah.

Ampt

I could easily see your previous experience in government work making up for lack of leadership skills

enderland

what do you actually want to do? make more money or do process improvement types of jobs?

Ampt

4:21 PM

like, compare yourself to someone who worked at facebook as a manager for 5 years versus yourself - sure they have more managment experience, but you would be an overall better fit because you've been in that field before

Thomas Owens

@enderland Making at least $6k/year less than market median (although I disagree with some of the inputs we used when I ran the salary survey results with my boss) is unacceptable, that's for sure.

Ampt

and remember, the current fad in the private sector is Agile AKA "We don't do process"

Thomas Owens

My figures have it closer to $12k/year less.

enderland

@ThomasOwens well you work in a government contracting job, being paid less than market median is... expected?

Thomas Owens

@enderland Not market median.

Aerospace/Defense in the Greater Lowell, MA area with 6 years of experience and 5 years of company tenure median.

Ampt

4:24 PM

@enderland funny, I figured he would make more working for the DoD since it's all funny money anyway, right?

enderland

oh, he wokrs for a contractor - not the government

Ampt

@enderland a defense contractor no less

come on, if that doesn't say $$$$$ to you, I don't know what does.

Thomas Owens

That's my dilemma. I really like my job, I don't like being underpaid. And I don't like this whole "I can't do anything because I need to maintain internal equity". I do more and better work than everyone else, I get paid more - that's how it works, right?

Ampt

@ThomasOwens That's how it should work, yes.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens HAHAHA

oh gods that was funny

I'm sorry; but in text- the sarcasm doesn't come through, it seems so sincere the way you put it. hah. Oh goodness.

Ampt

4:32 PM

^^^ not helping

Jimmy Hoffa

:D

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa When I consistently get the highest levels of ratings on my performance review, but I'm not paid for that...that says something.

Jimmy Hoffa

Ok, being completely honest here: Really, you have been hanging onto some just world fallacy far too long methinks.. this is really not even remotely close to reality.

enderland

you might be, relative to your coworkers though

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa And I'm more than happy to find somewhere else to work, screwing at least three highly visible projects/efforts.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:33 PM

@ThomasOwens Do iiiit!

Ampt

@enderland hence the "internal equity"

Jimmy Hoffa

2 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland haha who cares. You have to recognize when management does lots of stupid things, and employees take care of themselves and it hurts the employer- The employee has done the manager and employer a service. Consequences are the only things that teach companies, and they have so few of them despite doing terribly dumb things. Whenever my actions cause a company a consequence resultant from their own stupidity; I'm glad I had the opportunity to train them.

Thomas Owens

@Ampt So I'm one of the higher paid engineers and everyone else has a bigger delta to the median than me? And they wonder why we can't hire people...

Telastyn

really Mike Nakis? Revenge downvoting?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens so teach them, viscerally.

@Telastyn haha showed you!

Ampt

4:37 PM

@ThomasOwens could be, yeah.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn for some reason I feel like a quad-tree's geospatial facilities could help you efficiently query down to sections of records to do fewer hash or encryption comparisons and thus less hash or encryption operations executed overall (hashing or encrypting your query values rather than decrypting / hashing the values being queried against)

I can't pin point why that seems like it makes any sense.

Whatever, time for my second cuppa

Telastyn

nod

enderland

@ThomasOwens do you know the salary range for your position?

like, is it $X - $Y ?

Lightness Races in Orbit

enderland

are you just at the top of what they can pay you without a promotion?

Jimmy Hoffa

4:41 PM

@enderland you're a TWP mod; just carry the tagline. "Run!"

Thomas Owens

@enderland No. I'm trying to find out.

I'm definitely willing to discuss this and come to an agreeable solution.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens do remember when discussing numbers and analysis with non-technical folk; they weigh data significantly less than you do vs. their gut sense / the cultural training they've received by their cohorts

Thomas Owens

So what do they value? I can point to my contributions. Like the other week, when like 8 people were debugging things for 2 days. I walked in, read the code, had a few hunches, Googled a few things, and found the answer.

Then walked out.

Ampt

Cuz cool guys don't look at explosions

Jimmy Hoffa

We're used to using evidence in decision making - the vast majority of non-technical innumerate folk make their decisions based on first-hand experience significantly more. If you found a statistically backed analysis evidencing that your first-hand experiences were incorrect and the study seemed sound, you would try a different decision - most professional workers do not function in that way.

Ampt

4:46 PM

yeah, so only do that kind of stuff in front of your boss

just gotta save it up and then let it all out at once when he's looking

snicker

Jimmy Hoffa

Nov 25 at 16:53, by MichaelT

Snickers

Snickers is a brand name chocolate bar made by Mars, Incorporated. Consisting of nougat topped with caramel and peanuts, enrobed in milk chocolate, Snickers has annual global sales of $2 billion. In the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man, and Ireland, Snickers was sold under the brand name Marathon until 1990. Snickers brand Marathon energy bars have since been sold in some markets. == History == In 1930 Mars introduced Snickers, named after the favorite horse of the Mars family. The Snickers candy bar consists of nougat, peanuts, and caramel with a chocolate coating. The bar was marketed under the...

Ampt

mmmm that sounds good

Jimmy Hoffa

^-- having those with my second cuppa right now

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa ugh I need both a second cup and some chocolate

enderland

@JimmyHoffa those look like a trap

Jimmy Hoffa

4:56 PM

Aug 13 at 19:30, by Jimmy Hoffa

It's a Trick. Get an axe.

►

@Telastyn you suck; totally sniped me this morning... that sort of problem is precisely the type of work I love to do and have been successful at in the past..

Performance-constrained data problems are the most interesting things to work on..

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa for you :P

Thomas Owens

I'm going to start learning Scala again, I think.

Scala is still cool, right?

Jimmy Hoffa

...as cool as it ever was.... gag

Thomas Owens

If you had your way, everyone would learn Haskell. And only use Haskell. Ever.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:12 PM

@ThomasOwens if I had my way I would live in a sea of single malt; I would have the ability to fly and my laser beam eyes would have finally developed.

@ThomasOwens honestly; I'm not particularly good at Haskell, just enamored of the benefits I can see in it and the thought processes surrounding it. Wish I was better but meh. Scala seems fineish, I just struggle with the sheer size of the language - it supports sooo many different things at the language level which I tend to fear means people will execute significantly more abuses with it by accident than if it was more minimal and focused.

It seems like the kitchen sink language...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa You mean like Java, or C#, or C++?

Thomas Owens

I guess I just want to keep going in newer things.

Although I could always hone my C++ and C skills...those are useful.

enderland

"I want to do newer things... I could do C/C++" wat

:)

Thomas Owens

I've just been doing Java 6 dev for a while. I know other languages (Python, Ruby, a touch of JS here and there).

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens it's honestly got one of the best success chances of newer stuff over enterprise options... Otherwise I'd say for "newer" stuff; go pick up Node.JS. Funner, more interesting and a cleaner clearer language scope

Ampt

5:16 PM

@ThomasOwens java 6?!?!!?

Thomas Owens

@enderland It was an "Although..." as in, not do newer stuff.

@Ampt It's not us. It's our customer.

Ampt

Java 8 is gonna blow your mind

Thomas Owens

@Ampt How about JNI with static libraries?

Lightness Races in Orbit

Isn't Java 6 like ten years old?

Thomas Owens

Do you know how useful that would be?

Like, on what I'm doing right now?

enderland

5:17 PM

@ThomasOwens no selective context FTW!

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt right, C++ is as big if not bigger than Scala, Java is rather smaller, C# as well - though in both cases they're still a little richer than perhaps absolutely necessary. To be sure though, I don't see either as enormous languages full of sporadic feature sets... their features are fairly cohesive

You can write Java in Scala, you can write LISP in Scala, you can write Groovy in Scala... it's syntax is like every language got bolted together

Ampt

Well I like scala just the way it is

You're welcome everyone, for putting a little more Billy Joel into your Friday.

Thomas Owens

I should learn Frege.

That way, @JimmyHoffa is happy that someone else is doing Haskell (like things) and I'm happy because I can stay in my nice little JVM box that I adore so much.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa ?! C# along with the .NET framework is probably the largest language in use at the moment

enderland

@Ampt I've been rickrolled way too many times to click hidden youtube links ;)

Ampt

5:32 PM

@enderland Just some Billy Joel for your morning!

Thomas Owens

@enderland NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP NEVER GONNA LET YOU DOWN

I'm kind of doing the Rick Astley dance shuffle in my cube,

I hope no one important walks by.

It's Friday. Whatever.

4

Jimmy Hoffa

5:57 PM

@GlenH7 language - not framework. C# as a language hasn't an amazing amount of syntactic structures compared to most languages, and the pieces of it are all quite cohesive. The framework is handily one of the largest libraries in use, agreed there, no question.

user41796

That I'd agree with, yes

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 that was my point; languages that have large numbers of their features at the language level instead of through library support are code smell. C++ falls into this category, Scala too, honestly not a lot of languages do that though..

@ThomasOwens if you want a nice cohesive JVM language which is actually being adopted, Clojure is your answer. It's genuinely a solid language choice, and has had quite a good bit of adoption which only appears to be growing.

whatsisname

agreed

I don't really care all that much for c#, but the .net framework is glorious

user15026

Heads up, Whiteboard - I am stealing your esteemed moderator @WorldEngineer from Jan 2-10. :D (I'll let him have internet sometimes, I promise. ;) )

user41796

@AshleyNunn He hasn't dropped in for quite a while anyway

enderland

6:06 PM

@AshleyNunn I was thinking the other day wondering where he's been...

user41796

Maybe we'll actually see more of him this way

user15026

@enderland He's been having issues with his internet. :(

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 she's just covering her tracks post-hoc, @AshleyNunn next time you disappear someone - create the alibi beforehand. It'll save on lawyers fees.

enderland

@AshleyNunn needs more conspiracy theories! :)

user15026

@JimmyHoffa Duly noted, I'll do this correctly next time, I promise.

user15026

6:08 PM

@GlenH7 >.>

enderland

lol

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa I thought Clojure kind of died

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens O_O zah?

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa It just kind of dropped off the face of the earth. Maybe the things I read just stopped talking about it?

Jimmy Hoffa

Adoption has been on the rise - seemed to be quite a lot of hype on it last year and I've seen a fair number of jobs posting for it - which is more than I can say for any other FP lang other than JS and Scala

infoq.com/news/2014/10/clojure-survey-2014

Thomas Owens

6:12 PM

If you conisder JS and Scala to be FP languages, don't you have to consider Ruby and Python functional, too?

And I could be totally off base here. I just kind of stopped hearing about it.

Jimmy Hoffa

blog.juxt.pro/posts/clojure-curve.html

@ThomasOwens Scala is FP capable - JS is FP first - I don't know ruby well enough to state but my understanding is it's more SmallTalk-OO than FP; and Python maybe? I think it's kind of a second-class citizen in Python like in C#

enderland

man my boss is depending on me more and more...

whatsisname

is your boss paying you more and more

enderland

lol

:P

Duga

6:37 PM

If we had a question and an answer for all the possible wild typos all JS programmers in the world have done in their life, this site would become the first realisation ever of the Library of Babel. — Muzietto just now

Thomas Owens

Do any of you guys work on interesting problems to program outside of work? I find it hard - usually, there's a significantly faster and easier non-code solution. My first instinct is to solve the problem and move on, and that usually involves no coding.

enderland

@ThomasOwens hackerrank.com is kind of interesting

not sure it's large enough problems though for what you are looking at

Thomas Owens

@enderland I've been working on a few of them. Some are interesting.

Some are just plain annoying.

But yeah, I'm looking for bigger things. GitHub worthy things.

whatsisname

sort of

I generally don't work on boring stuff if I don't have to

Thomas Owens

I find it annoying. Throw me an interesting problem, and I'll work hard to understand and solve it.

whatsisname

6:47 PM

but with that said, I don't spend much time at all outside of work programming

Thomas Owens

But I can't find interesting problems to save my own life.

@whatsisname Neither do I, but I need an excuse to play with tools and technologies that I don't get to play with at work.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens it depends on what interests you, I think one of your issues is you have more interest in solutions / end products than in problems necessarily

whatsisname

then work on something in a field unfamiliar to you

design some hardware to do something

make some sort of novelty cooking device or make a star trek style door in your house or something

Ixrec

the main reason I decided programming was a good career path for me was that when I got really into programming around the age of 11-12, the reason I stopped was that I ran out of ideas for things to code, the actual desire to code stuff was there but I needed someone else to tell me what to make

Jimmy Hoffa

for me I know what types of problems I find really sincerely interesting: State machines of various fashions. They're prevalent and easy to find so I like playing with different ways of solving them. I don't care to be finished with a solution or make something useful - that's not the point. The point for me is to play with the problem because I find it interesting.

Thomas Owens

6:50 PM

@JimmyHoffa I'd say that's true

I think that's why I studied engineering - so I could learn how to develop solutions.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens it's why you've got a broader focus than code. I could construct different ways to handle asynchrony all day and not get bored, but I could care less if it helps anyone.

@Ixrec I'm with you there as well; it's hard I think for most of us to really find something we want to code. This is where SE is a lot of fun. The majority of the coding I do outside of work (what little I do - most professionals really don't do this much despite claims otherwise) is trying to solve other peoples interesting problems around SE; like the JS snippet I did the other day to optimize that sorting thing

Thomas Owens

One of the reasons why I want to work on projects outside of work is to get exposed to other tools - languages, frameworks, libraries, and so on.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn Remember, you have to give him back in better condition than you got him

whatsisname

maybe instead of thinking about languages and frameworks think about problems that need to be solved

Ampt

4 hours ago, by enderland

ITS FRIDAY FRIDAY GOTTA GET DOWN ON FRIDAY

1 hour ago, by Thomas Owens

It's Friday. Whatever.

man we just can't make up our minds

Jimmy Hoffa

6:54 PM

@ThomasOwens is there any coding problem or technical thing - of small nature - you find just interesting?

whatsisname

I don't care the least bit about languages or design patterns or frameworks or any of that stuff, yet I have no shortage of stuff I could work on if I had the time

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa I don't know if it's what you mean, but I do find different ways of expressing information.

Like how different paradigms or frameworks express solutions.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Robots can't find problems interesting, just solveable or not.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt robots need more scotch.

Ixrec

are there any "problems that need to be solved" out there which aren't specific to a particular business, or would have been solved were it not for annoying network effects/user inertia?

Thomas Owens

6:56 PM

@Ixrec Hm. I'm not sure. I'll think on that, though.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens so API design? Any particular approach to API design you think is really interesting?

user15026

@Ampt Fine, fine, if you insist. :P

Ampt

@AshleyNunn if you read between the lines that means he has to come back with cookies or he's not allowed back at all.

Thomas Owens

@JimmyHoffa Not just API design. Algorithm implementation, too. I have been thinking about modularity and plug/play kind of extensibility at some interface level.

Ixrec

the harder I think about it the more I end up in mathematical or philosophical problems rather than "programming problems"

like "What is agile?"

Ampt

6:58 PM

@Ixrec What is scotch?

user55340

@ThomasOwens before scala became viable, people called Ruby their favorite lisp.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec that's not a philosophical problem, that's just a mindfuck floating around in the world trying to ruin everything ever.

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa the logical positivists would say that is precisely what all philosophical problems are =)

user55340

randomhacks.net/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt ohh, let me count the ways!

Thomas Owens

6:58 PM

@Ixrec I have figured out the answer.

Ixrec

lol

user55340

18

Q: Please advise on Ruby vs Python, for someone who likes LISP a lot

I am a C++ developer, slowly getting into web development. I like LISP a lot but don't like AllegroCL and web-frameworks available for LISP. I am looking for more freedom and ability to do cool hacks on language level. I don't consider tabs as a crime against nature. Which one is closer to LISP:...

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