The Whiteboard

user55340

7:00 PM

@GlenH7 and that evil mod could point out that on their meta... Just to try to prevent a repeat.

@MichaelT argh why do you challenge me thusly?? I'm now dying to ask on there about the Qi energy ratio from quartz crystals to amethyst... 3 quartz to one amethyst? Do the number of sides cut matter?

user41796

Just to help close out an older meta thread. The question was migrated to Engineering but is too broad of a question for the Engineering site. It was closed on Engineering and the migration was rejected which sent the question back to Physics. — GlenH7 16 secs ago

user55340

@JimmyHoffa I'm still trying to figure out how to ask about oil engineering questions. Homeopathic oil engineering.

enderland

@MichaelT solution: become a moderator

user41796

@MichaelT So Air, Trevor, and I can race to close and delete your question?

Jimmy Hoffa

7:06 PM

@enderland haha yeah right, like he wants that headache. @MichaelT's nobody's fool.

user55340

@enderland yes, the solution is part of the problem. How much do you need to dilute it?

enderland

@MichaelT well there are about 150 stack sites... so 1 part per 150?

@LightnessRacesinOrbit heh so I am considering applying for a job, and they use Docker, and it was funny when my friend asked me about if I'm familiar with their tech stack and one of the things is Docker "yeah was convincing someone to use it just this week" ;)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@enderland still enjoying it - really making progress now. Got my wrapper script done and a few images ready for various toolchains we use

most questions answered

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I wonder if anyone directly uses it or if 100% of people use a wrapper of some sort :P

user55340

Oh, that's it - homeopathy.se so that glen can migrate all the pseudoscience engineering questions there... Where he is a mod and can dup them to the one canonical question.

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:09 PM

@enderland at least my wrapper takes care of (I think) all potentially orphaned containers and dangling images

it seems to be really easy to create them

can imagine my team making a massive mess of our server with free reign around Docker

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yeah. lol. that was something to worry about (especially if your images and containers are big)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT there can't actually be a homeopathy.se... no. I refuse. What's next, TimeCube.se? Yeah, so much for authoritative anything

enderland

"oh I have TWENTY GB OF DOCKER IMAGES ALIVE AND NOT BEING USED ZOMG"

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Not even a proposal on Area51. Yet.

enderland

@GlenH7 no that was when running local builds in a VM :P

Jimmy Hoffa

7:11 PM

Numerology.se: All answers are right, because if I add 10 and 13 I get 1013 which can be divided by two to get 10/13 which if you squint looks like the number 7, and since 7 is a lucky number clearly all your answers are definitely right.

user41796

@enderland I could see where that's a problem then

enderland

@GlenH7 my team was building a very fancy wrapper for Docker, basically, I did a lot of testing for them when I first started since I had to learn a billion things

Lightness Races in Orbit

I wouldn't say mine's "very fancy"

TK-421

I'm at risk of being banned from asking questions. All my questions were deleted and I'd like to read them to find out why to avoid asking bad questions in the future. Could anyone possibly look those up for me with a link? Thanks!

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit your team is like 5% the size of the team where we were though, I think 250 or so devs used it for building

Jimmy Hoffa

7:14 PM

@TK-421 banned from here or SO?

TK-421

here

Jimmy Hoffa

@cube oh sorry about that TimeCube jab, I didn't see you there

Lightness Races in Orbit

but it hides the nasty UUIDs while allowing human-readable container names to overlap across user accounts (by actually naming containers itself, and managing the human-readable descriptions within its own abstraction layer), and auto-deletes containers when they're exited from (so no stopped containers piling up!)

enderland

TK-421

101 6

do you see any deleted questions there?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@TK-421 lol

enderland

7:14 PM

enderland doesn't know

you can see your deleted quesitons in a certain time frame, I think

TK-421

no, and yeah was happy to take that username

Jimmy Hoffa

@TK-421 Real easy trick to ensure you never get Q-Banned here and learn what is and isn't on-topic: Anytime you have a question you want to ask, come in here and ask if it's on/off topic and why before posting it. Alternatively, read the HelpCenter and hope you understand it well

Ixrec

annoyingly even though I can see deleted questions, they don't show up on user profiles, they have to be linked directly

user41796

@TK-421 if the questions aren't showing up on your profile, you'll need to ping a site mod in order to hunt them down

Lightness Races in Orbit

it also hides all hub and "<none>" images from docker images so that the choice of image to use when instantiating a new build environment is ... the list of images I've created with our toolchains in

enderland

7:15 PM

@Ixrec moderators can but programmers mods aren't lurking here

Jimmy Hoffa

We'll gladly let you know if whatever question you want to ask is a good or bad fit and why

TK-421

Good tip, sounds fair enough. Thanks.

Jimmy Hoffa

ok...what's Docker? I've heard of it but never looked at it. Some kind of sandboxing thing?

enderland

@TK-421 this chat is very helpful if you are interested in learning how to do that, we are pretty quick to vote to close off topic stuff but when people want an on topic thing it's rare and very well received

@JimmyHoffa yeah

user55340

I've written a bit on meta also.

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:16 PM

devenv listimages, devenv create <toolchain>, devenv list, devenv reattach <n>, devenv delete <n>, devenv exec <toolchain> <cmd> and that's about it

enderland

@JimmyHoffa lets you create reproducible build environments

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT whatever, you paid others to write that shit, we all know better.

user41796

@TK-421 Another trick is to look at your reputation changes That may provide the titles and make it easier for the mods to find your questions.

user55340

30

Q: Why was my question closed or down voted?

Help! My question was closed (or down voted). Why? And what can I do about it? Downvoted Duplicate Off topic What technology to take up next Recommend a software library, tool, book, research paper, blog, forum, or other resource Career or education advice (MSE) Which computer science / prog...

Lightness Races in Orbit

every container uses host networking and mounts host ~ to container /host/

user55340

7:17 PM

@TK-421 Start there, follow links.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland relatively important. How? Controlls dependencies? Toolchain stuff? What type of build environments?

Lightness Races in Orbit

normal usage goes into bash for pissing about playing with source code and iteratively rebuilding; exec will do what you tell it (and will be what Jenkins uses, I guess?)

TK-421

Found a check box for "show removed questions" where reputation changes are. That works! Thanks guys, I'll stop in before asking another question.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa Yeah it's a VM manager for not-VMs with a simple image-building script language, cloud storage and clever transactional caching .. where the cloud storage includes like a gazillion ready-made base images including like every distro ever

user41796

@TK-421 and if things aren't clear while reviewing the questions, posting a direct link to the question here in chat will allow 10k+ users to go look at it too

user55340

7:19 PM

One, chasing from badges: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/286483/…

TK-421

sounds good, thanks

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit sounds like it's usurping your active runtime and dropping your storage root into a loop storage instead

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa uwotm8

user55340

If you don't have down voted (that one wasn't) questions deleted, should be ok IIRC.

enderland

@TK-421 yeah, if you edit something enough people in here have undelete votes that you could pretty easily get it undeleted once it's on topic too if you want

Jimmy Hoffa

7:20 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit does it take your running environment, fake stuff up into one that has a storage rooted in some folder or tar-like-file, and then try to overlay a shell from that new location?

enderland

> How does a container work?
A container consists of an operating system, user-added files, and meta-data. As we’ve seen, each container is built from an image. That image tells Docker what the container holds, what process to run when the container is launched, and a variety of other configuration data. The Docker image is read-only. When Docker runs a container from an image, it adds a read-write layer on top of the image (using a union file system as we saw earlier) in which your application can then run.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa no

@JimmyHoffa well, sort of

it's a lot more sophisticated than a chroot jail but you're on the right track

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I should hope it's more sophisticated than that, if that's all it were it wouldn't deserve much notice.

What does it give you over a VM?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa indeed

Jimmy Hoffa

Lower storage requirements?

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:24 PM

@JimmyHoffa Lower storage requirements, reusability, shares a kernel so it's a heck of a lot lighter to run

user55340

Iirc, easy deployment.

Lightness Races in Orbit

A Docker image is light enough to be designed to just instantiate for a single process (e.g. a Make invocation) then exit

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT VM deployment/cloning/starting/automation stuff isn't especially difficult these days

Lightness Races in Orbit

You don't need to move your whole consciousness into a separate logical system

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Blasphemer! That's non-monadic!!

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:25 PM

That being said, you can choose to launch bash if you like and do what you like in it for months

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit note on this: if you have ~~idiot developers~~ people trying to get 100% code coverage with tests who add a test like "which OS am I on?" and use uname it's going to return the host system because of the shared kernel

Lightness Races in Orbit

@enderland that's ok - my idiot developers read from /etc/*-release :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland I once saw code some dumbass DBAs wrote that changed a sprocs logic based on server_name() - people who base logic on shit like that should be beaten

enderland

we actually found all sorts of tests that started to fail in Docker when we started switching over, and assumed that it was the docker image - but it turned out docker was a better build environment than our previous build system (lol) so really, those tests were actual fails that were undetected because of the build system being slightly different than deployment system...

Lightness Races in Orbit

;p

enderland

7:28 PM

most of them weren't too serious but.. still unnerving

Jimmy Hoffa

The main thing I'm hearing is it's somewhat lighter weight on storage and system resources (VM automation is very fast too; with enough resources..), at the expense of a more complicated configuration situation?

enderland

@JimmyHoffa one advantage that docker has is you can do local builds a lot easier too

not just on a CI system

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland with a good VM setup you can do so as well

Ixrec

@enderland once I had a test fail in the test environment only when I used the number 1e10 in it

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa haha

Ixrec

7:30 PM

1e9 was fine, and all numbers were fine in dev, but somehow 1e10 in test broke stuff

Jimmy Hoffa

A real big industry grade VM lab system is pretty amazing- and also hundreds of grand up to millions depending on what you want.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa it's the "with enough resources" part

we're a tiny company

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not encouraging a VM over docker, just trying to contrast

Lightness Races in Orbit

I'll be happy if I can get basic new hardware for this server while I'm rebuilding it

Jimmy Hoffa

so the main motivator isn't features so much as light weight on resources. Would you say the configuration/initial setup is particularly onerous?

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:32 PM

I would not

I've been at this for three days or so and I have three images the way I want them (and they're quite large as there's a lot to install for our build thingies), with three to go, a wrapper script ready to go, and a decent understanding of where everything goes and what everything does

Jimmy Hoffa

neat. So, now that I know enough about docker to have some idea when I should look at it, I will never look at it for 4 years and have no recollection of it by then, which is ok because it will be obsolete, replaced by levi or canvas by then...

Lightness Races in Orbit

My main concern at the moment is that I'll struggle to get people to start using Docker in their own individual environments, so we'll have to keep our environment set up scripts around in parallel with the Dockerfiles (which ultimately do the same job)

but frankly as long as our main build server can build and test everything we produce, I'm happy

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT perl is lodging a thought into my brain which may be misremembered... I have these stream processors which are a -> [a] and I put them together continually flattening the results. But what if I really need (a,[b]) -> [a] to make a decision, should I come up with a way of joining a -> [a] and a -> [b] so I can get the input for a (a,[b]) -> [a] or an (a,[b],...) -> [a] for N number of x -> [x]s being joined...

that's sort of a part of junctions in perl, no?

Lightness Races in Orbit

One downside is the shared filesystem, but I think SELinux has taken care of that for me: if I set the relevant context only on /home/ (recursively), nobody can mount their container anywhere dangerous and start breaking things

at least, not critical things

and my wrapper script will only mount their homedir anyway

so (obviously) a Docker container isn't quite so fully contained; there are ways to improve that but it gets a bit more complicated, relying on SSH, Unix sockets, stuff like that to actually transfer files in and out (somewhat important for a build environment!)

Jimmy Hoffa

right, the downside that a VM handles for you, but it's significantly lighter weight it sounds like as it's not stealing ram/cpu, just costing storage and considerably less of that than a VM

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:41 PM

much easier to have a container do SVN checkout and build, into my host homedir, and that's it (SVN checkout inside container because SVN version may differ and lead to WD version incompatibilities)

@JimmyHoffa right

Jimmy Hoffa

Can docker snapshot/rollback etc? You could make the shared portion wide open and allowed for everyone so long as it's copy on write and automatically rolls back

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa please be less vague

"the shared portion"?

Jimmy Hoffa

No! No no no no!!

Lightness Races in Orbit

(yes, it can - each container can be "committed" to itself become an image, which may then be itself instantiated to be a new container)

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit you mention the file system is shared, but it's sandboxed per user so that different users sharing the same file system aren't colliding so long as they stay in their /home/

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:43 PM

((so you'd rollback by stopping using your new 'child' container and go back to the old one))

@JimmyHoffa ah right. filesystem operations won't roll back

that's the thing - access to the host filesystem is as-is (assuming you set up your container to mount part of it somewhere). that's the one sort of fragility I see

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit because they're not copy on write. There's no way to make docker's sandboxing force all writes to be copy deltas that it presents to that sandbox scope ?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa it's not sandboxing the host FS

so no

Jimmy Hoffa

I would think it would do such, it seems like a logical feature they would have wanted right off

Lightness Races in Orbit

well, don't quote me on it - I'm still new

enderland

@JimmyHoffa you can host existing filesystems but nothing is by default

Jimmy Hoffa

7:46 PM

2

A: Can I mount docker host directory as copy on write/overlay?

This is what I do: On the host: Load the directory as read only. docker run --privileged -v /path/on/host:/path/on/client-read-only:ro -it ubuntu /bin/bash On the client: On the client use OverlayFS over the read-only directory mounted from the host. mount -t overlayfs none -o lowerdir=/pat...

looks like you can do it

enderland

aww didn't beat the LMGTFY Jimmy. :P

Jimmy Hoffa

it's just a mounting trick forcing the mount to go through some funny kernel FS module that acts as a copy-on-write fs to begin with

likely similar to how live cd's work and such, they pretend to let you write stuff to disc and will present the data back to you et al, but when you reboot they're gone because they write to a fake space

Lightness Races in Orbit

which is completely useless for a build environment

so I go into my container and build my project.. come out of it to retrieve my binaries, and they're not there. no point in mounting in the first place

I see the use case for this but it's orthogonal to what I've been talking about :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit put them on a network drive? :)

have a folder mounted using normal mount rather than that funny FS

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa releases end up there. random builds during development won't and shouldn't

enderland

7:48 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit it'd be a weird situation you't want to run your binaries in a different environment than you built them in though (maybe? I guess there are uses for this)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@enderland you wouldn't..

but when I make the binaries it's because they're going to be transferred somewhere to be used

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit one use case for this is viewing/editing source code outside docker and building using the source tree

Lightness Races in Orbit

that "somewhere" may just be the releases area on the network, so fine I can just mount that

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit so just mount everything except for /bridgeToHost with copy-on-write, builds can put stuff in that location and things will be available to the host then

Lightness Races in Orbit

but it may also be some piece of kit dangling off our LAN somewhere this afternoon, and my devs need the flexibility to copy the binary somewhere convenient

enderland

7:50 PM

also you probably won't want to have to go do some obscure thing if you want to look at some build artifact for some reason, so you might as well mount the source/build tree (for local builds)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa I just don't mount anything but /bridgeToHost at all - no need

@enderland yeah

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit was just speaking to a solution to your "everyone's sharing the host FS" issue, with copy-on-write mounting you'd have isolated sandboxes with one shared host folder. It would be monadic then!! :D

Lightness Races in Orbit

I really want invoking Docker to be more of a glorified GCC invocation (simplifying greatly) than a separate PC to arse around in .. even though the option to go in through executing bash will be there

@JimmyHoffa well that would be cool and all but ultimately I'd still need to trust everybody to actually, y'know, do that. I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's trivial to ... not do that. which of course is not the case with a VM, in the main

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit with devs sharing the host though and executing entire tool chains and scripts...how long before they're running scripts that are writing shit all over who knows where..

@LightnessRacesinOrbit oh, you aren't controlling their entry point?

enderland

@JimmyHoffa hence the wrapper :)

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:54 PM

@JimmyHoffa I'm providing a pleasing abstraction around it but ultimately if they want to use Docker at the Docker level there's not much I'm going to try to do about that

@JimmyHoffa but again my point was as a description of Docker itself - and speaking of Docker itself, the fact is that this is the case :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit ah gotcha. Levi's will solve these problems I'm sure..

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit yup, I did that a few times when testing, "so I need to do something our wrapper doesn't do yet..."

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit cool, makes sense. Haskell has a variety of such sandboxing things available - especially with Stack now which is bloody awesome.

and of course, it's monadic.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa well, again, only /home/ will be mountable at all thanks to SELinux config (which only I control) so there are limits to what they can bugger up, even if they abandon my script, go to the Docker level and really try

and that's at the cost of their job, so...

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit no! Don't job them! (why does "brain" someone refer to debraining them?)

Jan 5 '13 at 4:47, by Jimmy Hoffa

I'm helping :D

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:56 PM

is it possible that you're a little intoxicated, @Jimmy?

enderland

@LightnessRacesinOrbit SCOTCH

user55340

Little?

enderland

nah he's always like this

Lightness Races in Orbit

> C# developer

never mind

I keep forgetting I left the land of sanity behind me in my SO cliques

user55340

And he claims understanding of Haskell and monads.

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:57 PM

I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who keeps prattling on about monads and monoids and Haskell and such things.

user55340

It's for the best.

Lightness Races in Orbit

;p

Jimmy Hoffa

>>= mempty :| ~~scotch~~

user41796

@LightnessRacesinOrbit sanity is only for those who don't program on a regular basis

enderland

speaking of...

user41796

8:00 PM

Language choice merely affects the rate at which you approach insanity

enderland

protip, when wondering how your function works instead of trying to conceptualize your logic in your head, just look at the test you already have written that covers that exact scenario to see

Ixrec

I use Javascript and I'm still perfectly sane

user41796

@Ixrec And you'd be a liar.... :-D

user41796

You can have one or the other, but not both. They are mutually exclusive

enderland

@GlenH7 does javascript break mutually exclusive principles?

;)

Ixrec

8:02 PM

C++ is the one that drives me insane, because BUILD SYSTEMS ARE HORRIBLE

both of the actual languages are fine

enderland

@Ixrec our build system had cmake scripts calling shell scripts calling java executables WHATS NOT TO LOVE

Ixrec

@enderland our company's build systems might be slightly worse than yours

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland only if one of the principles is ''

Ixrec

do you have a file full of empty functions whose sole purpose is to "dummy out" symbols at link-time which your code's dependencies expect to see despite never actually calling?

enderland

interestingly we learned about this only because we tried a docker build without a JRE installed in our docker

Ixrec

8:04 PM

we have a Perl script whose sole purpose is to generate those dummy files

enderland

hey we had something like that too, actually. :|

Ixrec

eek

well...were half of your dummies Fortran symbols?

enderland

we had some perl black magic going on generating some sort of temp files

no

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec yes, if C++ didn't have a toolchain clearly built by someone following a recipe to summon Cthulhu, it would probably have a lot lower cost of entry

Ixrec

we had an amusing bug ticket the other day because someone managed to dummy out main() and broke everyone else's code

user41796

8:07 PM

main() is for suckers.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec sounds like they had a deadline looming and decided to pull the fire alarm instead of getting marched into the principles office

Ixrec

hopefully

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec "both"?

Ixrec

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Javascript and C++

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa "a"?

enderland

8:08 PM

my brain is mush right now

Ixrec

I love both C++ and Javascript, they do their respective ends of the spectrum quite well (when subsetted properly), the only real difference between them for me is that C++ always requires fighting with a build system of some kind

Robert Harvey

Every time I talk to someone who's worked with C++ about learning C++, they say "Don't learn C++." Everyone in The Lounge says that to me. Not sure if they are protecting my sanity or pulling my leg.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland you been doing lots of coding lately? Gotten your wish? You seem to be in a constant state of transition, can't keep track of whether you're doing dev work, school work, or getting stuck with old legacy operational junk

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey probably both tbh, but as long as you're not tied to an evil legacy codebase C++ can be quite satisfying

Lightness Races in Orbit

@RobertHarvey haha "Lounge" and "sanity"

2

Ixrec

8:13 PM

the main thing to remember is that it is a language where you must read the entire manual before writing any code

or you will hurt yourself

Lightness Races in Orbit

@RobertHarvey also, enough with the "everybody"; these guys can't call you on it, but I know for a fact that's not true, so pull the other one!

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec but seriously, the manual is like 10k pages!

Ixrec

and by "manual" I mean a book like The C++ Programming Language and then Effective C++, one book won't cut it

enderland

@JimmyHoffa no, I'm tryign to wrap my mind around a complicated query schema right now. I'm not really doing much coding, almost all ETL work

user41796

< grabs popcorn />

enderland

8:14 PM

I've been FT now for 3 years or so, most of which I was doing coding...

Ixrec

and of course for modern C++ add one or two more books for all the new features

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec All 1000 pages of it? That's how long Bjarne's book is.

user55340

In college the lab I hung out in used Bjarne as a synonym of the headache you get from dealing with too much complexity.

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey you can probably skim some parts

Lightness Races in Orbit

I spend most of my life in C++. I'm really quite accustomed to it. It is fine for what it is, at the layer on which it sits. (Even if C++14 is a bag of shite and the future will be even worse.) But as a consequence of focusing on that gritty world, I have very little experience with higher-level stuff, Python, Ruby on Rails, Github, groovy new-fangled tools people talk about in opium dens like this one. My little dalliance with Docker this week has made me a little hungry for more of the poppy.

Ixrec

8:16 PM

I'd avoid skipping anything, except maybe advanced template metaprogramming (basic is enough to avoid hurting yourself)

psr

@Ixrec avoid hurting yourself?

Robert Harvey

@LightnessRacesinOrbit "Even if C++14 is a bag of shite" and "I have very little experience with higher-level stuff" are actually consistent viewpoints.

Ixrec

@psr to learn where the line is between useful templates and cthulu templates =)

user55340

@LightnessRacesinOrbit just stay away from php if you have common sense.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@RobertHarvey I use "higher-level stuff" not in the very narrow sense that the nonsense added to C++11 and C++14 might be described

Jimmy Hoffa

8:17 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit outside of C++ circles there tends to be pretty common agreement that if it's really easy to screw something up, it should be fixed or avoided altogether, C++ folks lean towards the "just learn how to do it safely" instead approach

Ixrec

@LightnessRacesinOrbit dare I ask what's wrong with C++14? (I really like what's in there; it may have a lot of corner cases and inconsistencies but no more so than C++98)

Lightness Races in Orbit

C++ was always a language built on hacks, but it's really bad at that now. Really, really bad. The glamour of how you can compose metaprograms and impress your retired CS professor is not really relevant to that point.

user55340

Some php O_o : ideone.com/ppfv3f

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec anything useful is utterly illegible and cosmically esoteric

the language's rules for doing just the most basic things are absurdly complex

Robert Harvey

Wasn't that always true?

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:19 PM

yes

Ixrec

^

user55340

And Ruby and JavaScript.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 you sure saw it coming, I'm with you on this one :D

user55340

JS WAT Talk reup

►

Lightness Races in Orbit

adding more things makes it worse, especially with all the TMP gubbins people are focusing on so much

I mean jesus christ look at the mess that is std::enable_if

Powered by SFINAE, a disgusting hack by any definition!

it's really extraordinary

Jimmy Hoffa

8:20 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haskell doesn't have SFINAE! :D

Ixrec

alternatively, we could point out the fact that enable_if is less useful in C++14 than in C++98 because more of its use cases are covered by less arcane features now

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec such as

Ixrec

constexpr stuff and lambdas with auto parameters are the main things that come to mind

Lightness Races in Orbit

(I'm not disputing — I honestly haven't paid much attention to it)

hm I wouldn't say any of those take care of enable_if's use cases ... though I guess I can see how they might make those use cases obsolete

if you accept the distinction

Ixrec

I do =)

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:22 PM

constexpr seems like a bit of a mess too, though I won't profess to be an expert

Ixrec

pretty much every feature is a mess if you think about it too hard, though constexpr is actually quite devoid of gotchas

Lightness Races in Orbit

lambdas seem to be about the only new feature from 2011 and since, that isn't a total travesty

Ixrec

the worst you can do is fail to understand why the compiler thinks it can't be constexpr, and give up and let it go back to being runtime-only

Lightness Races in Orbit

right

don't get me started on std::move

inb4 no the single argument one

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit why? did they forget std::stop and you'll just keep going until exhaustion?

Ixrec

8:25 PM

before we move on to std::move, one of the noteworthy differences between C++11 and C++14 is that C++14 allows a lot more stuff to go on inside of constexpr functions; previously you were limited to a single return statement

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa well, for starters, it doesn't move anything

@JimmyHoffa it doesn't actually come remotely close to moving anything

@JimmyHoffa which seems strange for something called std::move

Ixrec

yes, you have to just know that std::move does not move

it was not a great choice of name

Lightness Races in Orbit

it's named after a use case, which is bafflingly stupid and entirely contrary to how the rest of the language is constructed

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit semantic naming never was a strong point for low level languages

user55340

std::head:::case

Ixrec

8:26 PM

it's hardly the first time C++ has chosen a bad name for something standard (random: the one problem with constexpr is that's also a dumb name)

Lightness Races in Orbit

and yes I'm getting sick of the build process too

lol I write one python script and listen to me

Ixrec

to be fair every language has some dumb names in the standard

looking at you Haskell monad "return"

Lightness Races in Orbit

ooooh you said "standard" and "Haskell"

user55340

Retrum? Red rum?

Lightness Races in Orbit

7

Q: What does it mean to be "standardised", and why is Haskell it?

Wikipedia claims that Haskell is "standardised", but the Haskell standard is not ratified by an internationally recognised standards body such as ISO; not even by a national body such as BSI or ANSI. So what really are the criteria for a programming language to be labelled "standardised"? Does i...

haskell standards

AHA

Jimmy Hoffa

8:28 PM

> God appears, and god is light
> To those poor souls who dwell in night
> But does a human form display,
> To those who dwell in realms of day
> -Blake

Lightness Races in Orbit

haha and someone suggested migration to Programmers #irony

Ixrec

as for move semantics, I believe they did quite well with that because although it is incredibly tricky and complicated, resource management always is, and fundamentally that whole topic is about ways to tell the compiler how to do a certain class of optimizations that are usually only necessary for classes that manage resources; if you don't manage resources you can virtually ignore move semantics and silently reap the benefits

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec I'm not disagreeing, I know why they used the name (it gives a pretty imperative appearance to do notation stuff), but yes I don't care for it

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec that was rather convenient yes

psr

@Ixrec I'm sure they just wanted the do notation to be readable and approachable to non-Haskell programming dolts. Normally they would just call it a Nytharlomorphism or something.

@JimmyHoffa Beat me to it.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:32 PM

@psr I typically just make an alias for nytharlomorphism to return in all my Haskell so I can use the correct name.

user55340

@LightnessRacesinOrbit btw, our sanity quotient may be a bit... Questioned. Very high blue name ratio, Haskell, JavaScript and even mumps coders.

Ixrec

@MichaelT and the Javascript coder prefers it to all other languages =)

psr

@JimmyHoffa @JimmyHoffa - It just makes sense because only Nyarlathotep is pure.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@MichaelT I'm so sorry

OMG FEEDS SHUT UP

user55340

(JavaScripting here at the moment. Jquery Ajax calls to a Java backend)

user55340

8:34 PM

Use mobile. No feeds.

psr

@MichaelT I know, when they were talking about dumb names in the standard MUMPS has one by the time you read the title.

user41796

@MichaelT +1 for more jQuery

Ixrec

the thing in C++11/14 that I feel they did screw up was universal/braced initialization; it could have been objectively superior to parentheses and equals initialization, but nooooo they had to make auto x = {...} deduce to std::initializer_list for no reason whatsoever and now everyone's afraid of both styles

user55340

At some point I might d3 and add red circles.

Jimmy Hoffa

> C++ developers finally learned to be afraid of their own language, news at 11!

;D

Ixrec

8:43 PM

@JimmyHoffa well, the good ones are already afraid of raw owning pointers

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT ~~scotch~~ are you scotch questioning my SCOTCH sanity ~~scotch~~ !?!

user55340

There is nothing to question.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT alright ~~scotch~~ then! Carry on..

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec oh yes

@Jimmy wtf

user41796

@LightnessRacesinOrbit sed s/wtf/scotch/

user41796

8:48 PM

probably one of the best auto-replacements you could put in place and just leave there for eternity

enderland

@GlenH7 it would result in a lot of ~~wtfs~~ scotches per minute

user41796

1 min ago, by GlenH7

probably one of the best auto-replacements you could put in place and just leave there for eternity

durron597

We just had a phone interview with someone to get my job

user41796

@durron597 And they're awesome, right?

user55340

Those are always fun.

durron597

8:50 PM

my base salary is right in the middle of the posted range on the SO careers page

the guy is like "this is for a senior position, right? that salary is kind of low for senior developers"

let's just say it was difficult to not say cough no shit cough

user55340

Heh. Hint to boss then.

user55340

Ok, can't type this fast enough on mobile...

Jimmy Hoffa

@LightnessRacesinOrbit scotch on you, you've heard me proclaim a file system monadic, spew various general nonsense and quote blake, yet you would still say scotch? I can't be blamed for you only now realizing scotch.

user55340

So, when I moved to Silly Valley back in '96, overheard some newer managers talking with their mentor about the developers they had and complaining that a few of them were getting paid more than they (the jr managers) were. The mentor said "good - try to make sure you keep them."

enderland

@durron597 "yeah, ~~if I were you I'd apply to other companies, like Amazon~~ it's a low cost of living here"

user114359

8:53 PM

A few jobs ago when I quit my boss didn't even bother to ask why. He already knew I was way underpaid and he already got blocked by his management when I asked him to fix it.

user55340

Was amusing looking at the shock on the jr. managers faces.

durron597

Honestly, I took a lower pay than I wanted because I was out of the industry for so long. And, to be honest, looking back, I wasn't worth what I thought I was, again for the same reason.

user55340

i think it's reasonable to say that most non tech places undervalue technology professionals.

durron597

(how many more times can I fit the word honest into one message?)

user41796

@durron597 honestly, we don't know. Honest-to-goodness.

durron597

8:56 PM

But now that my skills are much more current, I'm still getting paid almost the same amount. No wonder I'm leaving!

enderland

enderland is trying to stalk @durron597's company on careers

durron597

@GlenH7 That's an honest answer, honestly.

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 yeah, one of the oddities in our industry is that pay increases aren't anywhere near at the rate commensurate people's value increase. As a decent engineer starts a company and begins learning the domain, after a couple years the value they're providing just from what they've learned of the domain is wayyyy more than earlier on.

user55340

This goes back to the most people want crap? No, they don't. They want what they think they can afford and what value they afford to technology professionals.

user114359

@durron597 You know what is really demoralizing? Being paid less than when you started in inflation-adjusted dollars but not being able to do anything about it because of the Great Recession.

enderland

8:57 PM

@JimmyHoffa I've wondered about this, if I leave my current company what I could get in terms of salary/etc...

durron597

@Snowman I'm kind of expecting to change jobs every 3-4 years for the rest of my life at this point. Unless Amazon figures it out.

Jimmy Hoffa

It's funny that job hopping is a stigma, and yet doing it every 2 years will yield an enormous pay increase over time, compared to the piddling normal 1-5% yearly (5% is pretty damn uncommonly good) you get around industry

enderland

glassdoor suggests a slight average pay increase from what I'm making now, actually

user55340

@enderland set a value for yourself and interview to find your marketability. If it's above the number, take the job.

durron597

I tell this story all the time, my a family friend worked as an intern at... FNC I think, having a car pick them up at 6 AM every day for zero money for two years

user114359

8:59 PM

@durron597 I have had four jobs in two years

user114359

But I think I finally got it right, this new job is probably the one I will stick with for 4+ years.

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