@psr that stinks but at least it beats the shit out of MUMPS. To be fair, I wrote a fair enough bit of VB6 years ago, it's an easy language to get shit done in, even if it does basically only form a spaghetti architecture. That said, I'm genuinely curious if you could implement the list monad in VB6... does it have HOF? I don't even remember if it had a dynamic enough type system to allow duck typing that might let you fake up a strategy pattern because I know it doesn't have interfaces

the chosen answer isn't at the top?

Since when does that happen?

hey which language is best to start learning programming

nearly any is good

that's interesting but i still wonder if java or c++...

There are some languages that are extremely rewarding, but are difficult to get into. An example is C++. And Java has insane amounts of ceremony for the simplest things, which can be discouraging. I would instead like to nudge you towards Python. I'm not too fond of that language, but it's a lot easier to get into. For example, you can run interactive sessions for exploring the language.

with C++ there are a lot more gotchas to keep in mind while working with them

@Prashant whichever you find more intersting

hrrrrmmm. there's an IT position dealing with ETL/ERP work which has the option to allow remote work... not sure it'd be ideal nor do I know how marketable those skills are

@AshleyNunn basically doing data analysis/migration work for the massive database my company runs on

@amon C++ is rewarding once you know it?

@JimmyHoffa No. Well, I'm not actually fluent or proficient in C++. But learning C++ is one way to gain an unnecessarily deep knowledge of CS basics such as sorting algorithms, implementation details of your OS, and nasal demons. … no wait, that was the pitch for C.

@amon nasal demons....C++ can give you amoebiasis ?? C++ devs suddenly make so much more sense!

you can write a lot of C++ without giving any concerns about sorting algorithms

it rarely matters

certainly. There's a nice standard library, and the very nice feature of templates which allows generic programming. Which is why I noted that I was actually describing C, not C++. My personal issue with C++ would instead be that everything is possible, but nothing is convenient (← another exaggeration).

@amon if we don't exaggerate the differences between our languages, we'll be stuck realizing that we're all writing screwed up software and the language doesn't matter.

(holy shit did that come from me?!?!)

I think the only thing to learn from C++ is what the difference between stack and heap is, and why it's actually a huge difference that matters a ton... other languages handle that difference for you because... it's a huge different that matters a ton.

also how to make ugly code

ugh I'm writing this stupid requirements document and I haven't gotten anything worthwhile done on it for 3 days

What do you think is blocking you?

@whatsisname haha, sometimes I find doing not-worthwhile stuff in those cases is just what's necessary to keep the ball moving 1 yard at a time until it's done. So in your case: Go work on formatting, put the word page numbering and some nice header/footers onto the page layout, make sure your margins are where they should be...etc

before you know it you'll be fiddling with pointless stuff and you might start actually start doing something useful. Worth a shot when nothing else you're doing seems to be getting it done.

what is it Joel said, fire and motion? Or was that more about business strategy...

@RobertHarvey: one of the supervisors wants to do a highly waterfall-esque development project, and wants a requirements doc that "fully describes" what the software should be doing, and doesn't believe me that such an effort is futile and not a worthwhile use of time

Do you have a fair idea how long it's going to take?

writing this doc or the whole project

@whatsisname if he wants totality in his requirements, convince him it should be done in a total language; Agda. Then it can live as a theory only and forever while being complete without actually having been done.

it doesn't help that he wants the requirements to be "abstract", yet "not ambiguous", and of course fully describing the software

@whatsisname sounds mostly like he just wants you to do his job because he doesn't know how

@RobertHarvey: if we ran the project the way I'd prefer to do it, 4-5 months. If I do everything the way they're asking, 2 years and probably won't be done

sometimes in such a scenario, doing the persons job the way you want to makes them slightly irritated but inevitably happy because at least it got done and they still didn't have to do it

It doesn't sound like he knows what he wants. Is this is a new thing, or are there existing requirements documents in the company that model what he wants?

He's a hardware engineer, and wants to run the project like it was a hardware project

so, he doesn't know what he's really asking for, and it's a big source of conflict

First-time software architect, then?

@whatsisname ....this doesn't work. Maybe you should play to his peredilections and suggest he design some hardware that does it so you can get it off your plate altogether

He's not trying to design the software at all, so not really "software architect"

just a very 'process-oriented' kind of guy

Can you write out specifications for all of the classes?

I think that following a documented process is more important to him than actually what comes out at the end of said process

@RobertHarvey the problem with software specs is software is a spec. You can't finish the spec without finishing the software.

You can build the skeleton without putting meat on the bones.

@RobertHarvey: its the same problem with all software specs: I don't really know what I need out of all the classes until I've started exploring what the actual user scenarios are

@RobertHarvey yeah but that's not really a "spec" in the sense many - especially a hardware engineer - see it.

Ah, you're trying to write requirements without use cases? Game over.

and if I am going to write something that 100% describes the software, I might as well just write the damn thing in c++ and be done with it

I hear ya. But there's this niggling problem that your boss wants a spec.

The classic model, you write the software spec/requirements, then hand that off to one team to implement, and another team to write tests

the only spec that really makes sense for software is grammars and protocol specs, beyond that the how is really specified by the code

and expect the two to come together in any meaningful way, is a recipe for failure in software

You mean, you're not the guy who's going to write the software?

@RobertHarvey: yeah, and since they're paying the bills, if that's what they want, that's what they'll get, but its hard for me to actually get it done because I think its dumb

A class diagram is sort of the minimum daily requirement, if you're going to be the Architect.

@RobertHarvey: the worst thing about it, is that I am the only software developer working on this thing

I will ultimately write both the software and the tests

So make your time count. Create the empty-shell classes. Make that your spec.

That ain't going to work

Well, of course it has to be in a form that looks like a specification. But at least you're moving forward with some software development, and your spec will more closely align with the software. How much time do you have to make the spec?

I now have an unlimited amount of time

so that's the upside

@whatsisname after a while, that upside always starts to feel like a downside...

Whatever you do, make it something that benefits your software development effort. I'm not going to claim to be an expert at overcoming procrastination (i'm one of the worst offenders), but I do know that doing one small thing, and then doing the next small thing, does work for me.

well, if it takes forever (which it will), then one of three things will happen:

1) They'll come around to realize that what makes sense for hardware doesn't for software

2) They'll bring some of our other software guys on, who agree with my positions

3) They'll pull me off the project and put someone else on

all three are acceptable outcomes

why are so many managers of software projects morons

Ah, well I didn't know 3 was a viable option. I still like being employed.

and/or completely inexperienced

@RobertHarvey: I'm not worried about being canned over this

But you won't tell him he's full of shit, will you?

@enderland because it takes years of intense study to understand real software development at any reasonable level, and managers have approximately 3 hours of study on the topic.

the company owners are often battling with my supervisor over my time because they want me for other stuff

@enderland: the guy isn't an idiot, he's just in unfamiliar territory

and what he wants to do makes a lot of sense for a hardware project with 100 engineers, which is what he's used to

but obviously is running into troubles for a software project with 2 engineers

Makes sense.

Will he be open to looking at your existing process? How well does that existing process work?

@whatsisname this was my last job, being bounced around from stupidly impossible project to stupidly impossible project, they thought I was good enough to save each one but the truth was none of them had a chance - meanwhile they thought highly enough of me I had no job security concerns so it didn't matter until my unlimited time turned into a downside as I was too bored...

well, there really isn't any existing process

its a rather complicated situation

Maybe you can humor him, then. Have you got a week to work on it?

@JimmyHoffa So do you tell them that their stupidly impossible projects are stupidly impossible, or do you smile and collect your paycheck?

well, the president of the company basically asked me to "humor them" literally

so, there it is

@RobertHarvey ironically I think they thought highly of me because of the former - only more professionally and with specifics. I shined a light, they couldn't do anything about what I shined a light on but nobody else there was even doing that much

Seems reasonable. You tell them it's not going to work, they say "try anyway." You get paid, it doesn't work. Everyone wins. :)

@RobertHarvey what a sad definition for project success...

except it's somewhat boring

It is sad. And boring. But it seems to be the way of the world, all too often. And I've been proven wrong sometimes.

Hardly ever, though. :P

@whatsisname like I said, an upside, until it becomes a downside...

I entertained myself at that place by gathering most of my current P.SE rep...

well, the upside doesn't exactly make the whole situation net-positive, no doubt

it's alright though

we want to get this thing work on for early Q1 2015

I doubt we'll even be 1/3 the way through by then

so we'll see what happens

another trick to break your procrastination - this is pretty bad but it's worked in the past - have a drink or two and then just start actively trying to write the garbage that immediately comes up, without inhibition. Look at what you did on the spec tomorrow and you'll see all kinds of things wrong, but then you can just treat it like fixing problems with the spec rather than having to come up with stuff. Sometimes one step forward, even if it's a stumble, is better than staring blankly ahead

(this is the worst professional advice I think I've ever given...)

Jimmy Hoffa... The king of anti-procrastination strategies.

Anyway, closing my browser window now. I have 250+ test data files I need to generate for a V&V, and I've got a week to do it. Then I get to interview for my own job. You think you have problems.

It doesn't help that I'm having a huge party at my house this saturday and a lot of thought has gone into making sure everything is lined up for that

which reminds me I need to make a couple phone calls after lunch....

What does that have... Oh, wait. NVM. Closing my browser... Now.

I'll be back a little later, and we can commiserate some more.

@RobertHarvey interview for your own job? ouch.. sorry to hear that

DDOS'd? Sounds like a good time for those sick day activities!

@Ampt some portions of the industry that's business as usual, not as huge a deal as you'd think

@AshleyNunn That option can bite you in the butt if you don't get it though.

Schedule a sick day.

sounds like her work site is under attack

I'm sure it's probably a serious attack if they haven't fixed it

I guess calling the service reps nasty names wasn't enough for this crowd

they're making time for your sick day activities!

So... when you have a tree you are recursively traversing searching for something, how do you manage the scope of the "continue?" flag?

how generous!

pass it in

ususally it's a counter

decrement it by 1 before you pass it to the next call

I'm basically searching a tree, and will find a matching node

at that point I can stop execution of the search

ooooh

and you want to quit early

yeah, since I have a recursive function

well is it a single thread?

yes

it's pretty simple

ok, so if you reach the bottom and don't find anything, return null

if you find it, return the object

when you're at a node with multiple children

check the last returned value before going back down

returning anything but null should return you all the way up

would that work?

ah, yeah I think so

for... some reason I never thought to do that. lol

it'll be slightly tricky since I have some logic in there to allow multiple ways into another layer into the tree, but should work

@enderland I've been doing recursive tree parsing for a few days :) We'll chalk it up to that

Specifically recursively parsing Json trees to turn them into directories... it's kinda gross

@Ampt I'll have to see, it's kinda a crappy tree I wrote (it's not exactly a tree per se but it's a heirarchy I'm searching until I hit the bottom of every possibility)

@WorldEngineer so what does it do, let you inject path variables into a shell prompt?

Damn...

good thing I use windows

No kidding

AND it's Taco Tuesday

@Ampt ... ? you're terrible at dates.

(it's ok, I'm worse; promise.)

sweet @Ampt that works, now just to verify the logic I have in my tree buried away will return a good result 100% of the time...

which is a miracle if I can 100% prove it

@enderland Test cases are for amateurs. just assume it works until proven otherwise

@Ampt ;)

Test cases are for amateurs

at least, for anything beyond what they are at face value

this is hopefully goign to be more robust than the current stuff, so it better be reliable ;) hahaha

now you have to multithread it for performance

mwhahahahaha

eh there aren't that many things to iterate through

lol

Damnit man, I get through like half the message and you delete it. at least give me a chance

the trick is I'm automating a UI with long convoluted hardcoded x-path's which... sometimes change

hardcoded changing paths... uh... huh.

so I want to use the "key" for each and find the actual x-path, but this will require me iterating through each element on the UI in search of the "key"

God help me if they use the same key in multiple places in the UI

haaahahaha

O.O

I'm shocked you guys didn't do that a long time ago, poor guy is going to spend the next 6 months reading conversations now ;)

@enderland .... brb

man my high school was a cakewalk, would be "stupid busy" in another way

oh the joys to have been interested in programming in high school... alas

spent on reddit all day?

Psh, why reddit when you can play Halo on an xbox calling everyone nasty names.

that's what the kids are really up to these days

is borked one syllable? My 3rd grade clapping to the syllables training is failing me.

it may be my dialect as well

borked = bork-duh

I talk dun good

the other mods come beat him/her up?

wonder if you could auto-chatban yourself by flagging your own message

Just talk about yogurt

gogurt

shit, I didn't it wrong )8

this week is draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaging on

@enderland .....and oooonnnn