The Whiteboard

overexchange

12:00 AM

hi

user55340

12:15 AM

0

Q: Close reasons and migrations (and stats?)

One of the close reasons that exists is: Questions containing broken code or asking for advice about code not yet written are off-topic, as the code is not ready for review. Such questions may be suitable for Stack Overflow or Programmers. After the question has been edited to contain working...

user55340

@overexchange 'ello. And welcome to the whiteboard. Its evening and we tend to be a bit more quiet on the evenings and weekends than during the day (this is a window open on the other monitor while at work in many cases).

Ampt

12:47 AM

@JimmyHoffa Yeah, I got it eventually, but at first I thought it had to do with the singleton pattern and I was like "Why would you build this into your language..."

Jimmy Hoffa

1:19 AM

@Ampt if you think learning python makes that easier to grasp, try learning Haskell and forever find every language you touch easier to pick up. They all feel like a subset of Haskell when you realize how to implement the idioms of other languages in such a reduced operation set as Haskell gives you.

Actually working on LYAH now? Fun headache inducing times.

Someone quick make @Ampt a mod, P.SE will lose half it's content this weekend

Jimmy Hoffa

1:31 AM

IME I've come to this conclusion, and I'm happy to hear other people's thoughts: There is a positive correlation between these 4 axes: Simplicity/Complexity, Difficulty/Easiness, Fragility/Flexibility, Maintainability/Puking-on-the-floor. Thusly: Complex code is easy to write, which is why people so frequently implement NCubes, they're *easy*, though they are fragile and cause you to puke on the floor when someone asks you to maintain them. Simple designs however take time and effort to implement, they are difficult to write but flexible enough to be powerful (LINQ is very little code, whic…

user15026

FYI - if @WorldEngineer is not around a whole lot this week it is because he is playing video games and the like in my house. I will return him to you safe and sound in a week, I promise.

Jimmy Hoffa

This is why learning simpler languages is difficult, though the code written in them is easy to maintain and quite powerful. This fact is wholey counter-intuitive because the difficulty and complexity are so often confused as the same thing such that people assume the results will be complex due to the difficulty of learning something. The counter is in fact quite often true, that more complex things are very easy to learn - this is where conventions and design patterns come into play, they are complex things (look at the actual code in any given conventions based framework and it'll make y…

@Ampt so I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it makes your head hurt, that's ok, the results will be worth it, and the headache will pass (though superseded by something far more sinister, realization)

(stop giving me shit about my busted ass english, I can't be bothered right now. I genuinely need sleep...)

Jimmy Hoffa

3:51 AM

Why do software job ads have videos with marketing and VP folks in them to advertise their company to software engineers? People are so clueless about what attracts software engineers to a company (hint: Software engineers, not marketing people or VPs with an over-inflated sense of self importance)

Ampt

4:05 AM

@ashleynunn I'll just assume my video game playing, cupcake eating, border hopping invite got lost in the mail...

@jimmyhoffa thanks for the heads up. And I just wanted to make sure you weren't dying :p

user55340

@AshleyNunn In other words, your house is The Bridge incarnate?

user15026

4:22 AM

@MichaelT Something like that :)

user15026

@Ampt Damn that postal system

gideon

2:02 PM

hey guys. Quick question : I'm trying hard to pass this interview, it's for a job I really want:

ratchet freak

oh dear

gideon

Essentially what they do is : Ask a few coding problems, you need to pen down the answer quickly in any language.

Now, generally I can solve problems that are relatively simple. But some of these can get hard.

Any ideas on how to practice for this kind of stuff? I've looked at Google Code Jam etc but for GCJ I can only get past qualification not through the next rounds.

ratchet freak

often those problems just require the interviewer to hear a buzzword algorithm/pattern

gideon

oh no, I have to pen down a solution and then they keep going by asking me what the complexity will be etc etc. It's real programmers asking those questions.

I've failed the interview twice :(

ratchet freak

best thing is to get a ready knowledge of typical algos they ask of you

gideon

2:09 PM

hmm. That's a good idea.

@ratchetfreak Generally, any tips on how to get better/faster at solving arcane coding problems ? (GCJ, Top Coder, etc)

ratchet freak

they are more contrived than arcane

gideon

ah yes, that's what I meant. It's the very word I was looking for :P

ratchet freak

but you can get a problem make a working solution and post on code review.SE with the interview-questions tag

gideon

@ratchetfreak ok so I'll be more specific. I fumble when it comes to paper more. When I have the magic of a computer and compiler to help me out it works out far better.

ratchet freak

then it's probably easier to use psuedo code

gideon

2:15 PM

I can't "compile" harder, more contrived problems straight in my head, And that's where I've messed up the two previous interviews.

I usually code by just trying out the first thing that comes to mind, then when I see the result I work my way through.

ratchet freak

you should actually try to interpret in your head

gideon

Yep :/

ratchet freak

sometimes it handy to get another piece of paper and make that your RAM :P

gideon

haha :P

so looks like your saying I just need to kinda practice to get better./

?

ratchet freak

debugging in your head will get easier with experience

gideon

2:20 PM

hmm. I see. yea.

ok, another question @ratchetfreak. This company is a Linux/FOSS company. Now, I've been doing OS, wrote CPAN distributions and even sent in tiny patches into linux. But most of my work experience is on windows.

You think the FOSS based companies discriminate programmers who have .NET work experience ?

ratchet freak

unless you did directX or directly to the win32 API it shouldn't matter

gideon

(Or if I use C# as a language to solve the program)

ratchet freak

language shouldn't matter

but you may which to attempt using a more traditional *nix language

gideon

Yes, this is what the company says exactly. One of my interviewers was a C# guy infact.

@ratchetfreak so I did that in the second interview (Used perl) BUT, C# is something I've been using since I was 16. I can think naturally in it. I've only started playing with Perl and Python maybe 2-3 years ago.

So it should be fair that I attempt in C# Or do you think an attempt in a *nix language would come off better.

ratchet freak

did you use pure .net features? like LINQ?

roscoe_casita

2:29 PM

regardless of 'fair-ness', unless the company uses C# in the *nix environment, more then likely they will view that as allegiance to M$

gideon

Yep, All pure stuff. In fact I didn't even use linq

@roscoe_casita yea you think so?

ratchet freak

some would, interviews are kinda subjective

roscoe_casita

if you have knowledge that they DO use C#/.Mono.Net in the *NIX environment, that changes things

but in general, C# is viewed as a M$ thing

gideon

nope. They are all about FOSS CentOS/MySQL/Perl/Python

roscoe_casita

then if you want a job with them, you can be sure that you will not be using .NET, and you will be learning those technologies.

Ampt

2:34 PM

what is this, 1999? M$?

roscoe_casita

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY M$!

lol,M$ pays my bills indirectly, so I bow.

how did I end up in this chat room anyways? Where am I?

Ampt

The Whiteboard

default chat for Programmers.StackExchange

roscoe_casita

interesting =)

Ampt

Otherwise known as the Lounge 2.0

gideon

@roscoe_casita yes, that IS what I want. Not that don't like C#. I just enjoy doing different things. Also, the jobs location is really what I'm after.

It's the only job interview has me completely stumped with their on paper style coding questions.

Jimmy Hoffa

2:52 PM

@Ampt Shut!

that's just insulting

@gideon sounds kind of nonsensical to be sure, that said I would unfortunately submit you might not know the right language to use on paper (perl ought to do if you know it well though) - if they do Python I would say that's likely your best language to use on paper for them. It's a much lower ceremony language so will fit more cleanly and easily on paper.

but the whole code-on-paper thing strikes me as nonsense, they wouldn't ask any of their employees to do it, the least they could do is give you notepad, I can understand not giving people a compiler to see how well they can check their code for errors in their head, but the whole use handwriting thing is dumb

roscoe_casita

what they are really looking for is process, how do you break the problem down into parts, and solve each piece

gideon

@JimmyHoffa Yea, but I really want the damned job! :P I just get so nervous and fumble on paper. Then I've come home and I can solve the problem perfectly well on the computer. The first time I tried solving 5-6 problems, lasted 3 hours, on paper, fumbled at 2. The second interview I was asked only 2 problem. Tried perl, but this time fumbled at 1.

roscoe_casita

easy way to do that, is give you pen and papper

Jimmy Hoffa

@roscoe_casita maybe. you can't know.

Robert Harvey

@gideon Practice on paper.

gideon

3:04 PM

@roscoe_casita hmm. true.

Jimmy Hoffa

32 mins ago, by ratchet freak

some would, interviews are kinda subjective

^---

roscoe_casita

true @JimmyHoffa thats just been my experience.

Robert Harvey

In other news, why do interviewers make people solve coding problems on paper, when the job will never require that?

roscoe_casita

demonstration of ability to communicate design decisions ~

Jimmy Hoffa

The sad fact is interviewees may be completely competent and yet have no idea what the interviewer is looking for because interviewers make the whole process so opaque. I think that opacity is frankly a problem with many interviews, turning it into a test rather than an *interview*. Interviews shouldn't be focused on testing people, but rather should be focussed on working with them to find out how they work and what they can do. Collaborative approaches will always identify these things so much better than adversarial approaches, this is why people are so often hired and then after the fir…

user41796

3:06 PM

@RobertHarvey Gives me a chance to see them work through the logic

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey The only reason not to give someone a compiler for their code that I can imagine, is to find out how well they can error check code themselves because you believe it an indicator of how many errors they'll write, there's likely better ways of doing this though.

roscoe_casita

@JimmyHoffa I've long wished for a 'code bar exam'. so that interviews are not exams of knowledge of programming

user41796

For the record, I don't expect to see perfect syntax. But I do want to see a logical structure and I want to see how they adapt that structure when I change the requirements after the first round

user41796

@JimmyHoffa It does give you a chance to see if they discover the logic and fence post errors they created. Stuff you wouldn't otherwise see if you rely on the compiler to tell you it's okay.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 how would you feel if I started writing Haskell? That's my intent in any handwritten code anymore. Just simple pseudo code where functions are defined as:

F p1 p2 pn.. = statement1
               statement2

Robert Harvey

3:08 PM

The only time I ever use a pen anymore is for endorsing checks. I'm not sure I still know how to use one. (only slightly exaggerating)

user41796

@JimmyHoffa since I'm not familiar with Haskell, I'd have you explain what the lines of code are doing.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey I'm a compulsive note taker, I always have a pen and steno with me everywhere I go, habit I picked up in my first job and just always kept. Comes in real handy, I don't often look back through my notes, but the writing helps stuff stick better, plus I do go back to my notes often times as a journal of design decisions for when people pull that "No, I said to do it this way" shit

@GlenH7 it would be super simple, but do you think as a pseudo-code syntax, what I just show you would be understandable pseudo code?

Robert Harvey

Well, I do that during meetings. But a lot of times, we take notes with laptops.

roscoe_casita

+1 for that @JimmyHoffa

Jimmy Hoffa

sig = code

user41796

3:10 PM

@JimmyHoffa There have been some studies that show writing things down increases your retention of the material later on, even if you don't refer back to it.

ratchet freak

I have a pen laying on my keyboard but when I go to take notes it never touches the paper for some reason

user41796

@JimmyHoffa pseudo-code syntax is perfectly fine too.

roscoe_casita

even doodling on the paper while listening increases retention for some *

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yes but the pseudo-code syntax I described above - is that ok? It's not peoples typical curly-brace pseudo code

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I'd have you explain it if it wasn't immediately obvious

Jimmy Hoffa

3:12 PM

@ratchetfreak I must have a ringed pad to attach my pen to the ring so it's always ready

Robert Harvey

When I was in college I used to write programs on 8 to the inch graph paper with .5 pencil. I had better eyes back then.

Little tiny characters. There's something tactile about writing programs that way.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey mechanical pencils is one of those very clear generational things I've learned - everyone of a certain age absolutely loves them and thinks they're just the obvious choice (their arguments are totally logical so I'm not saying they're wrong), while absolutely no one below a certain age uses them except for the extremely rare odd one (probably @Ampt trying to be like Real Engineers)

user41796

@RobertHarvey 8 to the inch or 10? I'm used to 4:1 and 10:1 paper

roscoe_casita

nostalgia to the max right now

Robert Harvey

10 to the inch was too small.

One character per box.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:17 PM

I think it's just a historical event thing - mechanical pencils came to be at a certain point, and it coincided with their generation being a certain age that it just made an impression that's never gone away

user41796

8:1 makes sense then. 4:1 is generally too big.

roscoe_casita

Yay! the only graph paper small enough to not make a few words inchs long!

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa mechanical pencils? Are you kidding? Everyone in grade 5 and up used those. they hardly even install sharpeners anymore

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I don't think it's possible to get a degree as an engineer and not use mechanical pencils

Ampt

I don't think it's possible to get a high school degree and not use mechanical pencils

Jimmy Hoffa

3:18 PM

@Ampt yes but everyone around you is using a Pen.

Ampt

Granted, we're not talking drafting pencils either. just cheap mechanical Bics

@JimmyHoffa ever tried taking a test in pen? That shit is called hard mode.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt ...I haven't used a pencil since I was probably in 6th grade

user41796

@Ampt surprising how decent even some of the midrange mechanical pencils are

ratchet freak

@JimmyHoffa most note's you'll ever see me take is a sketch flowchart of a algorithm or an object tree

Jimmy Hoffa

but me and hand-writing are non-mixy things so the whole pencil bit doesn't make a difference

user41796

3:19 PM

@JimmyHoffa Further proof you're not a real engineer. :-D

ratchet freak

@Ampt scrap paper

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak Everyone who notes much builds their own syntax with meanings and their own semantic note language - yours may be very graphical. A veritable note-taking piet.

I have a variety of syntactic elements I use in my notes to put semantic meaning on the paper

@GlenH7 there need not be any further proof of that :P

ratchet freak

@JimmyHoffa it's mostly internal

Ampt

I assure you that while my notes may look like I'm simply coloring in every other square on this graph paper to make a pattern, there is infact a hidden meaning behind it: I'm bored

2

Robert Harvey

As someone else pointed out in passing, doodling helps you focus.

psr

3:30 PM

@JimmyHoffa just for fun let's make Ampt a mod on Math instead.

Robert Harvey

Speaking of boredom, I'm off to write my sixty-page software test plan. Enjoy your mechanical pencils.

user41796

@psr Remember: ~~Answers~~ Hints, not ~~hints~~ answers.

user41796

@RobertHarvey click click

Ampt

@psr Math.SE? I vaguely remember seeing red and next thing i knew, all the questions were gone.

for Answer a: DB.getAllAnswers():
    if a.containsIgnoreCase("Hint"):
        DB.remove(a)

user41796

-1 FOR SHOUTING — GlenH7 9 secs ago

Robert Harvey

3:40 PM

One time at an interview I was asked to code something in my language of choice. Their shop language was VB6, so I wrote it in VB6. Afterwards, they asked "Why didn't you pick Pseudocode?"

Ampt

@RobertHarvey well in their defense, they were going to know every mistake you made like the back of their hand. pseudocode has the benefit of being syntax free

user41796

@RobertHarvey "Um, because I knew you were a VB6 shop?"

ratchet freak

if you really want to troll the interviewer then you can solve it in a cellular automata on graph paper

enderland

@RobertHarvey lolcode!

50

Q: Down with FizzBuzz... LOL

This post is the result of reading through and following the LOLCODE Specification 1.2, and writing and executing my code on compileonline.com. My "hello world" was going to be a fizzbuzz. I like it because it nicely illustrates the basics of a language - variables, operators, looping, condition...

beginner fizzbuzz lolcode

Robert Harvey

@Ampt Confession: the last person I interviewed, I actually asked the guy to code something for me on paper. But I didn't expect his syntax to be perfect; I wanted to know his pattern of thought.

psr

3:43 PM

real programmers can get lols in any language

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I agree that that's the end goal, but subconsiously, when you work in the same language every single day, the little obvious mistakes stand out more and more, whether you want to judge them on those or not.

if I'm a java programmer, and I'm interviewing a candidate who claims to know java and is whiteboarding java and they don't attempt to put in a single semi colon, or they mess up the order of the for each statement, it's going to be instantly noticed

whether or not it's relevent

Robert Harvey

I guess my point is that writing code on paper is a very different exercise than writing it in an IDE, or even a text editor.

Remember, I'm the guy who put assembly characters in 1/8 inch blocks. Believe me, that's a very different exercise from writing in an IDE that can see your mistakes immediately and put squiggly lines under them.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Um, maybe you should stop coding in assembly then?

Robert Harvey

Twenty years ago.

I'm thinking about trying it again with an embedded device. I like assembly language.

Ampt

you can definitely do it with an arduino

not sure you could use the IDE to check your crap

ratchet freak

3:53 PM

@RobertHarvey custom writing your arduino assembly?

Ampt

but atmel has it's own IDE that supports it

Robert Harvey

@ratchetfreak Why not? There's nothing like the feeling of falling off a cliff.

ratchet freak

it's pretty hard to find errors in assembly

Ampt

@ratchetfreak you dont say

user41796

@RobertHarvey So long as you don't land, it's an awesome feeling.

Ampt

3:54 PM

@GlenH7 And don't forget your towel

user41796

I'm so glad someone caught that opaque reference

ratchet freak

I mean higher level languages has syntax to protect your lower extremities from stupidity assembly doesn't

whatsisname

so my friend and I investigated why the shitbox was making such a terrible noise when driving: i.imgur.com/0ayAAHJ.jpg

user41796

@whatsisname I think those parts have seen better days

whatsisname

the inboard brake pad was completely obliterated and the piston was grinding into the rotor

Jimmy Hoffa

4:12 PM

@whatsisname on the bright side, hahahaha

Ampt

@whatsisname I don't see anything wrong?

are you trying to say that the piston isn't meant to be a consumable?

also, you may consider replacing the rotor if the piston looks like that. I can't imagine what the inside of the rotor looks like

On another note, does anyone know of any good putty alternatives?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt Sap, Corn starch, wood glue, and quickcrete

user41796

@Ampt context?

Ampt

I need an SSH client

putty is good, but I'd like something a little more feature rich

user41796

por que non putty?

Ampt

4:26 PM

maybe some tabs

integrated SCP

user41796

offhand, I can't think of any, but that doesn't mean much. I've always been fine with putty and running multiple sessions of it.

Ampt

Where's @MichaelT with all his fancy paid solutions when you need him...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt ooo PuTTY. I literally thought you were looking for some engineered formable compound...

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa yeah, right :P

Jimmy Hoffa

(I humbly submit my suggestion would make a terrible formable compound)

@Ampt what, you have an engineering degree right? I really thought you were looking for suggestions. You people with your real-things engineering instead of abstract-things engineering, I never really know

Ampt

4:29 PM

@JimmyHoffa My degree does indeed say Engineer on it :P I'm sorry that we confuse you haha

Ampt

4:57 PM

Of course granted, in IEEE we're still just "Those software guys"

I remember doing my senior design poster presentation, which the IEEE put on, and at the end there was dinner and a speech. the presenter, a higher ranking IEEE member, went over the valuable contributions of "the Electrical Engineers, the Computer Engineers, and those software guys"

Yet it's some big mystery why no one wants to join IEEE

psr

@JimmyHoffa I hereby grant you an honorary degree in "customer delight engineering".

user41796

@Ampt Well if only you would do real engineering.

Ampt

@GlenH7 I know right. This new fangled software crap is just completely useless. No one will ever prefer this over those hard wired configurations

can you imagine computing engines that did more than one thing?

preposterous!

user41796

precisely

user41796

it's just a fad anyway

psr

5:11 PM

@Ampt I believe it's called "hard-coded".

Wires are the bendy things the internet goes on.

Ampt

@psr no, no, no. You don't need any of that coding stuff. We can just put it all on the hardware. a transistor here, a flip-flop there, and the board does exactly what you want!

psr

@Ampt Not sure what all those words mean - you must be doing functional programming.

Ampt

@psr Ugh. How many times do I have to say it? Programming is a fad! In 5 or 10 years, we'll all be back to hardware only, and all these hot shot programmers will be back in their parents basements

Robert Harvey

5:40 PM

Clearly we won't be back to discrete hardware, but I do think we'll deliberately become less connected, as the convenience and benefits of remote access abilities will be offset by the costs of maintaining security and defending against terrorist organizations. The easiest, cheapest and most secure solution is to unplug.

It will happen when there's enough pain from data breaches that organizations won't be willing to risk it anymore.

Ampt

6:05 PM

Nah. As we increase our computing power, we exponentially increase the amount of effort required to hack the hardware

the real problem with todays security is people

and no amount of network disconnect is going to fix Sally from HR letting a "Printer repairman" into the building

Robert Harvey

It's a house of cards.

Ampt

and no amount of network disconnect is going to fix Sally from HR letting a "Printer repairman" into the building

Robert Harvey

Perhaps brain implants are the answer.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I think that if you can prove P=NP then yeah, it's a house of cards

Robert Harvey

Or keep Sally from letting the fake printer repairman in.

Ampt

6:09 PM

yep. the target fiasco was over an unsecure router used by HVAC maintenance personel

Robert Harvey

In the absence of that, the best solution is still to unplug.

You can't hack what you can't connect to.

Ampt

yeah but the biggest assets aren't going to because they need it. Can't run a credit card without an internet connection

can't load relevant ads about a person if you can't access the database with all their web habits

Robert Harvey

Don't get me started on that.

In any case, old-school hardware had a huge advantage. The only thing you could hack was settings.

You couldn't install an arbitrary program that took arbitrary actions, like you can now.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey it's also extremely expensive and slow to market

user41796

@RobertHarvey The layers of abstraction create many potential weaknesses

Ampt

6:13 PM

and if there's one thing we know, it's that people won't be slower to market in favor of security

quite the opposite really

Robert Harvey

Firmware is not bad. You can burn a PROM, and you've got new-school hardware with old-school security benefits.

Ampt

ok, but closed source firmware is what gets us into this mess in the firstplace

user41796

@RobertHarvey Have you read about badusb?

Ampt

Or the numerous flaws in many consumer and small business grade routers?

Robert Harvey

Routers are generalized hardware and software. As long as you have the capability to do remote upgrades, it's not a PROM.

user41796

6:16 PM

@Ampt compounded by the fact that many of them source the chipset and firmware from the same vendor

Ampt

or the fact that no matter how secure your cell phone is (encryption, disabling of features, etc) the tower can simply tell the baseband firmware to tell the CPU to stop it, and the CPU has to comply?

Robert Harvey

Cell phones are hack receivers. People are stupid to use them for any sensitive activity whatsoever.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Shouldn't that just be "People are stupid."? (myself included)

user41796

That said, part of the challenge is the complexity our society has introduced.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I'm just saying that doing everything in firmware is far from the answer

infact in some areas, it's the problem altogether

user41796

6:20 PM

For example, look at how exchanging money has morphed into multiple approaches

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 Informed consent has gone out the window. When people download an app, and it says "This app requires access to your phone book, your medical records, and your current location" people just say "Um, yeah. OK." What else are they going to do? Not download the app? Find another one, that just asks for the same permissions?

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I think that that's getting a lot better

especially with the big hoopla over facebook messenger

user41796

Used to be just bartering and cash
Then we created the ideas of cheques
Then we added in credit and loans
Then we added in credit cards
Then we added debit cards
Now we have prepaid cards
NFC and `bonking` are on the near horizon and are used in other countries
It's a bewildering array of choices.

Ampt

Android L promises a lot of changes in that area too

user41796

@RobertHarvey I agree with what you're saying there. So you end up segregating what you use each device for.

user41796

6:22 PM

@Ampt I disagree; many app updates ask for increasingly broad permissions.

amon

<advertisement> I found this interesting question on SO regarding multiple inheritance, the diamond problem, and Java. A shame it wasn't asked here. Anyway, I found the existing answers unsatisfactory, so I added my take. What do you think? Vote to find out!

Ampt

@GlenH7 I mean that users are getting smarter about what it means when you hit "I accept" and the operating systems getting clearer

Robert Harvey

It gets worse. People have no idea what the apps on their phone do. Do they phone home? Do they track your locations and your texts and look for patterns? Nobody really knows.

user41796

@amon You forgot your closing tag. -1 for invalid syntax.

Ampt

No, the ad's just not over yet

amon

6:24 PM

@GlenH7 Nah, some tags auto-close. Ever closed a <p> paragraph in HTML?

user41796

I'm going to say yes

Ampt

Me too

I can't remember not closing one?

amon

me too. I'm not proud of it.

Robert Harvey

Hey, we're talking about serius bidness here, and you want to talk about auto-closing advertisement tags? :P

user41796

Yep, I type </p> all the time

Robert Harvey

6:25 PM

>_<

user41796

@RobertHarvey You're right. Let's just shut the entire ecosystem down

Ampt

@RobertHarvey I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be.

In any case it's not really all that different than advertisers tracking you

user41796

@Ampt I'm not as certain. Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I don't see an increased security awareness with the people I talk to.

Ampt

@GlenH7 You didn't catch whiff of that giant Facebook Messenger app to-do?

user41796

@Ampt Which is actually part of the problem. Can you imagine the phishing attacks that would be possible if lexis-nexis were breached

user41796

6:28 PM

@Ampt People whinge and leave FB whenever they make any change. That said, their site hasn't shuttered (yet)

Ampt

@GlenH7 No, but the whole conversation was over what permissions the app needed

so people are talking about it

Robert Harvey

Target and Home Depot getting hacked didn't really bother me all that much; we all agree that happens for dumb reasons. What might keep me up at night is some terrorist hacker figuring out a way to bring down the entire electrical grid.

user41796

@RobertHarvey more easily done through physical means

user41796

cost of attack is higher, yes. But probability of success is also much better.

Robert Harvey

Technicians have done it by dropping a screwdriver into an electrical panel. It's the nature of interconnected networks; the interconnection is what makes them vulnerable. All you need is to lose a few generators on a hot day, and the entire grid shuts down.

I think they've worked on that problem some, though.

user41796

6:36 PM

Or just take down a few critical substations

Robert Harvey

Health care information was reasonably safe until the Obama Administration decided to computerize it. The way Healthcare.Gov is administered should make you feel very secure that they know what they're doing: "What’s more concerning is the security vulnerabilities that led to the breach: the manufacturer’s default password on the server had never been changed, the server was not subject to security scans, the test servers were mistakenly connected to the internet."

I'll be the first to admit that I need to take some IT Security classes.

user41796

No doubt that getting security right can be difficult

Robert Harvey

Yeah, changing that default password requires a lot of expertise.

user41796

Start with the SANS Top 20. It's a set of 20 recommendations to secure environments that have been demonstrably proven to shut down a significant majority of attack vectors.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Knowing that it's there is where the expertise comes in

user41796

6:42 PM

The task to secure is generally bog simple. But knowing that the task needs to be done can be a different story. Not trying to excuse that behavior, but it helps to understand how the action happened (or didn't) in order to fix the problem.

user41796

Here's a direct link to the SANS Critical Security Controls. IIRC the original research came out of Australia by their equivalent of the DoD

user15026

8:06 PM

So, I just got offered a job

user15026

problem is it starts Monday

ratchet freak

there goes the weekend

user15026

My problem is I need to find a graceful exit from my position I am currently in

Ampt

8:32 PM

"Cya later chumps" won't cut it?

user41796

►

user15026

@Ampt That might just be it

user15026

Because, well.

user41796

@AshleyNunn You have an offer letter in hand? Not just a verbal offer?

user15026

As soon as the woman from the recruiting office gets her shit in order she is emailing me paperwork

user41796

8:34 PM

@AshleyNunn I make it a rule to never say anything until I have a letter in hand confirming start date, salary, etc...

Ampt

@AshleyNunn I would hold off on the chumps bit til you've got the paperwork

same goes with showing up, even for training

user15026

Yeah

user15026

I know

Ampt

nothing like showing up to training to find out they don't have a position for you

user15026

I just have to wait for her to email me

Ampt

8:35 PM

that one happened to me

user41796

And I'm assuming you've already asked the future employer to push that back so you can provide notice?

enderland

@AshleyNunn "I QUIT AND AM OUTTA HERE SUCKAZ!" doesn't count I assume

Ampt

OH OH OH! I know! Ask on the workplace!

this is right up their alley!

"Quit your job"

user41796

@Ampt No, no. How should I quit my job?

user41796

Hot questions list FTW

Ampt

8:38 PM

instant hot list

include the part where you get called nasty names by customers on a daily basis

user15026

@GlenH7 Yes, that doesn't work because of it being a training class that starts on that date

user41796

d'oh

Ampt

(It's really, really hard for me to feel bad for your employer when that kinda stuff happens and they know it)

user41796

Best you can do then is apologize and explain why you couldn't give more notice.

user41796

Likely worst they can do is not hire you back, which probably isn't an issue in this case

Ampt

8:40 PM

can you tell that I'm really excited for you?

user55340

@RobertHarvey lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/different-kinds-of-darkness

user55340

83

A: What is different about being targeted by a professional attacker?

Disclaimer: I work at a company developing security software to mitigate against targeted attacks. Some of the methods we use are similar to those used by attackers (when clients want to test their systems). For example, one client asked us to test their security by doing targeted [spear] phish...

user55340

@AshleyNunn I told you about my notice to Employer^^?

user55340

The three weeks before, on friday, someone in the department gave notice. Friday came along. I went up to the manager when I got in and said "Bob, its Friday, we need to talk."

user55340

The look of realization on his face was quite distinct.

user15026

8:52 PM

The problem is not giving notice, really, the problem is that I am not giving technically enough notice

rolfl

^^^ Not really, the problem is that the new employer wants you to start before it is reasonable to ask you to.

user41796

@AshleyNunn Is it specified in the contract?

user15026

@rolfl Well, yes, but since it isn't a tech job, it is a call centre job and I am part of a training class, they can't change the training class for me

user15026

@GlenH7 Yes. however, I can make working evenings for current job work with day training for new thing

user15026

so if i have to do that, I have to do that

user41796

8:54 PM

And that clause may be in there mostly as a formality. A reasonable employer will not want a disgruntled employee representing them to their customers.

rolfl

@AshleyNunn do you have accumulated leave available to you at the current employer?

user15026

We don't really do that

user15026

Like there's no formality to my time off/vacation

user41796

And that having been said, I have heard of companies letting the person go immediately once notice has been provided.

rolfl

That is common where I work (IBM), but not always.

user15026

8:57 PM

@GlenH7 Considering it would only be a few days (because I am not scheduled other than tonight and thursday this week) I am not too worried if that happens

psr

@AshleyNunn Sounds like a "yes"

user41796

I have seen / heard of that happening before, so one of my other rules is to not provide notice unless I can ride things out until the next gig starts.

user15026

@psr What does>

rolfl

When I am confronted with questions like this (ethical), I ask myself what my father would do.

user15026

@GlenH7 I can.

psr

8:59 PM

@AshleyNunn Yes you have accumulated time off/vacation.

user15026

@rolfl I called my mom! She's the strongest person I know, and good at these things

user15026

@psr I am a contractor, so we don't have that specified as a thing

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