The Whiteboard

12:32 AM

@MarkTrapp, that was a good edit for the 'name of a bug' question. I'm glad to see questions about finding appropriate jargon terms in software development is not closed.

Dan McGrath

1:56 AM

Finally took the time to look into the 'desktop notification' option here on Chat. Hopefully adding chat.stackexchange.com in the options->under the hood->content settings->pop-ups->exceptions in chrome is all that is needed.

The downside of international websites for those not in the largest user-groups country = They often decide the maintenance window is in your timezone... Even more reason for developing systems that can have upgrades/maintenance performed while still being online. (I always see P.SE/SO 'offline for maintenance')

Dan McGrath

5:55 AM

Just saw this comment on an old question: Someday, a coworker asked the boss: "Am I allowed to do that?". The wise boss, not wanting to say no to a nice guy but being a boss anyway, answered: "If I had to officially answer this question, I would say no."

Dan McGrath

6:08 AM

I have edited a question previously closed today, hopefully making it more suitable for the site. If some mods can check it out and see if they agree? If not, feel free to rollback my change.

1

Q: The best and the brightest?

Google claims to hire "the best and the brightest". Yet many products they release fail (just to name a few: Knol, Lively, Buzz, Catalog, Froogle, Video, Orkut, Accelerator, Answers, Coupons, Wave, Dodgeball, etc) and others that are successful were mostly bought from other companies (youtube, ea...

Pierre 303

6:31 AM

It's an interesting question

Dan McGrath

11:50 AM

Yeah, it is.

user2334

@DanMcGrath It might be interesting, but speculation is not on-topic on Programmers.SE. It's likely a good question for Quora, where they eat those types of questions up.

Pierre 303

Maybe better for answers.onstartups.com

Dan McGrath

Hmm. "Why does having great software developers not guarantee great results in software development?" is what I see is the essence of the Q. I can see how you could ask that on onstartups. It is a pretty fundamental question for software development though. I fail to see how that doesn't qualify as an appropriate subjective question. It is as much speculation as "Why are more programmers not freelance these days?" which has been deemed an appropriate question. Unless you think I'm mistaken?

Pierre 303

12:06 PM

Dan: that's a lot better

user2334

@DanMcGrath Questions need to be based on real situations; i.e. they need to solve a real problem. The "problem", in this case, is based on an arguable assumption that Google's failed (fails subjective guideline 3). So, unless the answerers have deep insights into Google, which they almost certainly don't have, the answers aren't going to be based on fact or experience, but merely outsider opinion (which is shown by the answers already given, fails guideline 4 and 5).

user2334

@DanMcGrath Finally, there's no right answer. It's a completely open-ended question based on the answerer's opinion of what's up at Google. if the question was based on an actual problem the OP had (like, this is what's happened at my company, what went wrong?), it'd go a long way towards being on topic

user2334

It's also telling that 3 out of the 4 answers challenge the assumption made in the question.

Dan McGrath

Well, Google has admitted failure with Wave iirc (didn't meet its own user targets), Dodgeball was shutdown, etc so I wouldn't agree it completely fails guideline 3.

Interesting. Are you implying that a question who's assumption is potentially incorrect is not a valid question? I find that hard to swallow

Pierre 303

@Dan: post your question when Mark's is asleep. Problem solved ;)

Dan McGrath

12:17 PM

Haha :)

user2334

I'm saying the question is not coming from an impartial or constructive point of view. It's impossible to answer the question in any definitive manner when the question asker is wearing his bias on his sleeve.

user2334

@Pierre303 I didn't close the question, but I agree with why it was closed. @DanMcGrath asked a moderator to review, which I did.

Dan McGrath

Notmy question and I couldn't be that nefarious :) Besides, Mark seems to be on the ball and catches the one outside of his timezone too :p

Pierre 303

@Mark: that was some humor, I know the question is already there ;)

Dan McGrath

@MarkTrapp Are you saying that its non-impartial tone is what is stopping it? I've made an attempt to remove some of it, but surely it could be modified to be acceptable instead of just closing it. I still believe the essence of the question is a great subjective question

user2334

12:21 PM

@DanMcGrath The impartial tone and the fact that it cannot be answered in any definitive manner by anyone outside of Google is stopping it. A similar question that isn't speculation about a company the question asker isn't part of has a better chance of staying open, although I think @Pierre303 might be right in that it's probably a better fit for answers.onstartups.com.

user2334

Questions need to solve actual problems: if it was a question about the question asker's own situation, it'd be useful.

Dan McGrath

I thought the goal was to provide Q&As that were useful to everyone, not just the asker. You previous point would seem counter-intuitive then... Surely framing the same question on a company that everyone knows is better than solely serving the question askers benefit by being framed on a company/situation that only they know of?

ChrisF

The way I see it is that hypothetical questions aren't useful, and this question falls into that category. Unless you get someone from Google who was involved in these projects answering, anything anyone else posts is pure speculation

user2334

@DanMcGrath Check out Real Questions Have Answers which makes the point I'm not getting across a lot better.

Dan McGrath

I've read it

user2334

12:29 PM

Then I'm not sure where you're getting tripped up.

Dan McGrath

I find it slightly humorous that a site for 'subjective questions' requires real answers, not opinions when subjectivity is defined as 'judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts'. It seems like they want the site both (mutually exclusive) ways

I guess that is the crux, I don't completely agree with Jeff that subjective questions always have real answers.

If they did, they wouldn't be subjective questions

hence the whole premise of the site is wrong

user2334

@DanMcGrath We allow a specific subset of subjective questions, as defined in Good Subjective, Bad Subjective. We welcome subjective questions, just not all of them.

Dan McGrath

Yes, but that still doesn't address the real answers, not opinions quandary.

Subjective questions, but definition, which have answers based on opinion

Anyways, its been fun to pick your brains on this issue. As always, I defer to the mods as they understand the sites intentions better than I. If I wasn't disagreeing on some questions I'd be worried the mods have been giving to much slack. :)

user2334

@DanMcGrath No, they don't. Subjectivity is based in a specific perspective, not just opinion. I can say X is Y based on my experiences and my knowledge, and you can say X is Z based on your experiences and your knowledge. If we were drawing from the same set of experiences and knowledge, we'd necessarily agree. Experience is the key aspect of this. Unless the answerers work for Google, their answers are useless.

user2334

This is different from an opinion, where I can say "It's my opinion that vanilla is better than chocolate" and you can say "No, chocolate is better." I can't falsify your opinion, and you can't falsify mine regardless of anyone's experiences. That's in no way what we're after on Programmers.SE.

Dan McGrath

12:37 PM

"If we were drawing from the same set of experiences and knowledge" <- I disagree. That is assuming that everyone would have the same interpretation of those experiences and knowledge, which I don't accept. Given this, I would say that even having access to the same experiences and knowledge" boils down to an opinionated view unless it is solely grounded in facts

user2334

@DanMcGrath "unless it is solely grounded in facts" <-- That's what we're looking for.

Dan McGrath

Even if you assume 2 people had identical experiences since birth, it only takes 1 neural connection difference between those 2 people to make difference decisions unless they were working with absolute facts

user2334

Consider answers to be primary sources: like a war journal. It's not opinion simply because I experienced it: it really happened because it happened to me.

user2334

Unless I worked at Google, my answer to a question about why Google is failing is complete conjecture and speculation.

Dan McGrath

No, if you re-read the question, it uses google as an example

The one I posed above ^

user2334

12:41 PM

I've read the question several times. You can't separate Google from it.

Dan McGrath

""Why does having great software developers not guarantee great results in software development?""

user2334

Like I said before, if a similar question based on a real situation the poster had was asked, it'd probably be fine.

Dan McGrath

No google, same essence of the question

what is stopping primary sources from answering that???

"Hi, I'm john. We had great developers but due to incorrect management of the release schedule..."

user2334

Because the question is based on a faulty, inaccessible premise, that Google is indicative of how hiring the best and the brightest still leads to failure. If I wanted to address the connection between the problem (Google hiring the best and brightest still lead to failure) and the question (why does hiring the best still lead to failure), I have to either know exactly what happened at Google (which I can't, since I didn't work there),

Pierre 303

What's interesting in the question is how could a programmer really affect the success of a product. Many books and gurus tell "hire great programmer, and you will succeed". Well it's not true is some case and it's interesting to have opinions of other developers.

user2334

12:45 PM

or or I have to make stuff up based on my outsider's perspective (i.e. opine/speculate). That's not what we're after. Answerers can't actually relate to the situation that sparked the question and answer in a useful manner because they don't work at Google.

Dan McGrath

but Mark, the question I just posed has no reference to Google, nor does it need it

How is that different from "Why are more programmers not freelance these days?"

@Pierre303, I agree with that. A lot of Software Development is more that just what the Software Developer does

user2334

I can only review individual questions as they are asked based on the guidelines for the site. I've tried my best to explain that a similar question, without the Google framing, would likely be okay (if not on Programmers.SE, Answers.OnStartups). The question that you're having an issue with isn't the question you're arguing for.

Dan McGrath

and it follows that you need more than just a great Software Developer for success

@MarkTrapp, I agree with that. What I'm arguing for is we change the question to that instead of closing it. It solves the same general premise, minus the google references. Why wasn't editing the question to be that the solution instead of creating another closed question (noise) on the site?

It is, however, 11:51pm here and I believe my wife is waiting for me to get off the computer :) Thanks for your patience and the discussion @Mark (and @ChrisF, @Pierre303). Have a great day.

user2334

@DanMcGrath You can make minor changes to a question to clarify things, but you can't change the essence or the motivation for the question without the author's permission. If there's an issue you're personally having that's similar to the question, feel free to ask a new one.