Game Development

9:53 AM

Hi guys! So I'm reading some webgl libraries and I've seen a simple geometry cube where points are duplicated.
I'm wondering if storing duplicate points is a "default" thing, and reading this answer: https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/172610/4508 seems to confirm... normally in 3d geometry shared points between triangles are duplicated because of in this way we can store normal per vertex and have smooth shadow right? but does this make sense in a cube?

TomTsagk

10:05 AM

Hey @nkint
Yes, duplicating vertices is absolutely normal, and that has to do with how they are stored in the GPU to be drawn faster

This is regardless of the geometry

So if you have a rectangle that is divined into two triangles (for example) you would have 6 vertices in an array

As you mentioned this also has the benefit that you can have different values on each vertex (normals or texture coordinates)

nkint

ok thanks!

TomTsagk

12:12 PM

Is anyone here using Blender?

Vaillancourt

2:32 PM

We don't, I used it a bit in the past.

TomTsagk

Ah, they changed the UI recently, and was curious if I'm the only one that finds it annoying that I have to learn it all over again :/

Vaillancourt

Yeah, the UI and the UX are the biggest complains about Blender. I heard they did that to help transition from other big 3d software, though.

TomTsagk

Yeah, but they changed all of the shortcuts and made the experience worse for existing users

I wanted to bake the ambient occlusion on some assets yesterday and spent way too much time trying to find where everything is

Vaillancourt

2:51 PM

I heard there was a way to revert to the old shortcuts.

TomTsagk

I'll look more into it later today, hope there is

Vaillancourt

Good luck :)

TomTsagk

Thanks, I think i'll need it :P

TomTsagk

3:48 PM

The chat seems quiet today, I can't really think of a good programming topic to make it more active :p

Pikalek

3:59 PM

@TomTsagk Yes. They're not the only franchise that does this sort of thing; sadly, the company of misery doesn't compensate for the time sink of relearning the tool sets.

@Vaillancourt Admittedly, I'm at all up to speed on Blender's current state of affairs, but that's somewhat shocking based on my past experiences with their community view on UX.

TomTsagk

I just wish they didn't completely change the whole UI in just one update, and did it gradually or something

It really feels like a completely new program

They even changed how you select objects, or vertices from objects

Pikalek

That solution (gradual conversion) has its own set of hassles. Nonetheless I sympathize.

TomTsagk

I can understand that to be fair

Pikalek

Being open source, someone is free to fork / branch & support the legacy UI.

TomTsagk

I guess people can always just download an earlier version

Pikalek

4:06 PM

"Free" being a loaded four letter word in this case.

I learned 3DS max first - when I tried to to use blender for the first time, it was maddening.

TomTsagk

I've heard that from an artist friend of mine

Pikalek

Having the same thing without switching brands is even worse.

TomTsagk

I started with blender, so for me its UI always made sense

Pikalek

Yes, you get used to what you're used to.

TomTsagk

The thing is, I think Blender's UI and shortcuts worked amazingly well. Sure there is a learning curve because they are different that other 3D software, but I think once you learn them you can work quite fast

I haven't gotten used to the new ones yet, so I can't really say if this is faster to be fair

I've used Maya in the past, and it felt quite weird at first :P

Pikalek

4:12 PM

"Sure there is a learning curve because they are different that other 3D software, but I think once you learn them you can work quite fast" - I've heard similar logic for numerous open source projects. Even when it's factual, I think there's a danger in dismissing the standard operating procedures of your target demographic.

TomTsagk

If they all start to look alike, then what's the point have multiple of them? :/

Pikalek

I would argue that if you can come up with a good answer for that in terms of features, cost or support, then you need to rethink your product.

TomTsagk

To be fair it is open-source, and maybe they are trying to satisfy their donators, which sure makes sense

I guess I'm just a little more emotional because I planned to do some work on blender these days and it turns out I have to spend double (or more) so I can learn the ui as well

Pikalek

I'm not saying things can be different. And there is great value in exploring new solution spaces. But refusing to consider previously mapped solutions out of spite isn't helpful.

@TomTsagk That's understandable.

I think that also goes toward why a lot of people don't switch from commercial software to certain open source alternatives. They just want to be able to get work done. Asking them to unlearn commercial app X and relearn how to do that in open source app Y represents a cost that many projects fail to estimate correctly.

Almo

GIMP has a horrid interface

I did not like Blender at all, but that was around 2010. It may have improved.

TomTsagk

4:23 PM

I think GIMP has made some good decisions lately

@Pikalek That makes sense, and I think it's one of the good arguments I've heard of why someone would prefer commercial software instead of blender

Didn't GIMP unify all their windows into 1 now?

Almo

Not sure. I've used it pretty recently and still find it weird.

TomTsagk

The only thing I find weird with GIMP is when you have to structure a project with folders. It feels like the UI is lacking there

Almo

the whole "floating layer" shit is confusing

the way you move selected stuff around is confusing

the different modes on the select box are confusing

I could go on and on

Pikalek

I haven't tried GIMP in a very long time. At this point, I don't know why I would unless I moved off Windows.

TomTsagk

I see what you mean, I haven't used a commercial software for images in years, but I can see why the floating layer thingy can seem confusing

@Pikalek Makes sense, I'm not using windows so choices are limited

Pikalek

4:29 PM

What are you using?

TomTsagk

I'm on Arch Linux, the two most famous image-manipulation software there is GIMP and Krita

And imagemagick, but that's not the same :P

Pikalek

Haven't tried the Arch distro.

Almo

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=gimp+argh&room=19

a search for all instances of "gimp argh"

TomTsagk

Oh wow :P

Pikalek

I'm still easing into Krita. For the most part, I like it. I wish the had more into about their API though.

Almo

4:31 PM

thing drives me nuts :)

TomTsagk

Someone really doesn't like GIMP haha

I've used Krita only once before, wanted to give it a try. It was ok but I didn't spend much time on it

What software do you use @Almo

for images

Almo

Gimp

i just hate it

if i had a choice i'd use photoshop

but I don't use it enough to warrant paying for it

for simple editing, I use GraphicConverter

a paid app on OSX

Pikalek

It depends one what you want to do with images. Edit & pixel push or create from scratch?

TomTsagk

I think that's the best response :P

Almo

edit and piuxel push :)

Pikalek

4:35 PM

I wouldn't use Krita for that sort of work personally.

TomTsagk

Is Krita more useful to draw new things then?

Pikalek

I like it for painter-ly stuff. I'm also not using it for game dev, just for art-ing around.

I'd consider doing some dev work on it, but thus far, I've found their info on their API & systems to be rather opaque.

TomTsagk

What kind of work do you do?

I mean on Krita :P
what do you draw?

Pikalek

I did that mostly in chalks.

It needs more detail work.

TomTsagk

Oh cool! looks pretty interesting!

Is this part of something or just practising?

Pikalek

4:45 PM

Mostly I'm using it as a vehicle for improving my drawing. It's nice to be able to iterate more quickly than if I was using physical materials.

TomTsagk

looks pretty neat!

Pikalek

And I'm not quite willing to dedicate space for doing things like painting with acrylics. So doing it in Krita (or some other painterly app) works well for me.

TomTsagk

Is there any goal? Or is it just a hobby for now?

Pikalek

Mostly it's a creative outlet for me right now.

And my kiddo is into art so, it's nice to have a shared activity.

TomTsagk

oooh that sounds so cute, parent and child both drawing for fun :P

But yeah, so annoying when the UI changes for no reason :P

Pikalek

4:52 PM

Yes.

It's been years since I did anything with Corel Painter, so I don't really recall how it did & didn't work. So Krita is more or less a clean slate for me. I'm not sure I'm into this enough to justify purchasing painter for myself. And the couple of mid tier competitors I've looked at don't have quite the feature set I want.

If I could write plugins for Krita similar to what Paint.net allows, then it'd seal the deal for me.

TomTsagk

I've heard of Corel Painter but never used it

Can you use a drawing stylus in all of them?

Pikalek

Not sure about Paint.net, but the the others do have stylus support.

I got to dabble with a lot of creative software back in college. for a while, I managed the "multi-media" lab, so it was more or less my job to know how a wide array of the stuff worked. Exposed me to a bunch of stuff I might otherwise not have tried.

TomTsagk

Ooh, I used to make online webcomics some years back, and apart from some odd game-related stuff, I haven't worked that much in graphics

Guess it's why GIMP kinda worked for me :P

Pikalek

5:07 PM

There's some interesting comic oriented tools out there theses days. I haven't tried them, but I've wondered how much of a niche it is (i.e. does it have needs that are strong & different enough to warrant separate products).

@TomTsagk @Almo out of curiosity, have you tried pinta?

TomTsagk

haven't tried it before, but looks promising

Pikalek

I found it just now while looking up gimp related options - not familiar with it myself.

shrug

TomTsagk

5:26 PM

It seems its open source and supports BSD as well, but its described as being influenced by .NET, so not sure about that

I prefer programs that have their own idea of what they want to be, instead of copying others

Pikalek

Didn't realize that it had that overlap. That's would actually be a plus for me - writing paint.net plugins is sometimes a pain as the source APIs are only sort of available as far as I know (using old versions or reflection). Having documented, accessible source might make somethings easier.

@Josh Morning.

user4704

5:51 PM

Hi.

Pikalek

I saw your comment regarding sdding network support sooner rather than later. In your experience is net support something that has been hand added to projects or run through pre made library code?

Almo

@Pikalek I have not :)

Paul

10:17 PM

Refactoring is always such a pain to begin with.

But once you get started; you can't stop and it feels so satisfying to compare it with the original.
It quite helps me understand the code I wrote so long ago and making it more understandable for the future, avoiding bugs to begin with; instead of fixing them afterwards by applying more ugly patches.

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