Game Development

12:40 AM

Changing networking later is always harder.

you will make game design decisions based on how your networking functions

in DbD we are having to retune almost every interaction possible given that Killers now have latency when they used to be the server.

it's taking a team of people full time over a period of months to do this

you do not want to redo networking later, especially on a solo project.

If you are ok with just LAN and how you build that in order to get it built in the first place, that's cool! Just don't expect to be able to change it later.

I would not be this emphatic about it did I not have first-hand experience with it on DbD. I would have previously said, "that sounds like it will suck, but it's possible."

user4704

I agree with the above.

user4704

Have had similar experiences; it’s always a pain.

TomTsagk

10:08 AM

hey all

trollingchar

hey

TomTsagk

how's it going

I tried the link you send the other time to try your project, but I think the game doesn't work

trollingchar

The delay of a free Heroku server is about 30 seconds.

I'll host next version's server at home, with port forwarding.

TomTsagk

Aaah I see!

Is it not possible to play hot-seat? as in without the server?

I gave it a go again and it worked hehe

trollingchar

Well, this feature will be in Test Application 4

and also English localization

but I must finish refactoring first

TomTsagk

10:23 AM

fair enough, looks interesting so far

trollingchar

New version has new UI, I even posted it here probably

and some optimizations and bugfixes

try to hit worms with phantom grenades! they are white semi-transparent

Q select LMB throw

TomTsagk

Ah cool!
have you thought of what to do once you finish the game? where to publish or sell etc

trollingchar

I'll publish it in our local social networks, and maybe later I'll invade Facebook. And later maybe there will be a mobile version.

TomTsagk

Wooh quite ambitious hehe

I've thought of support mobile too, but it's so troublesome :P

trollingchar

But I expect legal issues because Worms is a trademark. There is a possibility that I'll have to pay Team17 or redraw worms to not look like worms.

TomTsagk

10:32 AM

You could always make your own IP, wouldn't that be more fun?

trollingchar

hm..

who knows

TomTsagk

I think it'd be more creative, plus you would have less things to worry about

I mean, making a game is already troublesome enough

trollingchar

This is a difficult decision but I can postpone it.

nwp

11:37 AM

Make it cute little kittens and add lots of gore.

trollingchar

why kittens?

TomTsagk

I like that

nwp

Because they are cute and adorable which produces a nice contrast to splattering them with a bazooka. Maybe you can even incorporate it into the game properly. Give them a liquid power to get through any opening, trap them with a dish with milk, use a mouse to taunt a kitten to move and so on.

Plus lots of cool artwork, emojis and animations potential.

TomTsagk

This would easily attract new users, as they won't see it as a worms clone, but as something new

trollingchar

This will also easily disturb old users

TomTsagk

11:54 AM

That depends on your target audience to be fair

nwp

Should be fine if you keep it cartoony. But I understand if you don't want to use that style. You could go full PG13 and shoot food and once the kittens got enough food they fall asleep. When all your kittens are asleep you lose. That probably causes some gameplay changes such as attacks not exploding but instead attracting kittens and you no longer have destructible terrain in the same way as worms.

The airstrike can be replaced by a bucket of water.

TomTsagk

To be fair, destructible terrain was one of the fun things about worms

nwp

True, but without it level design becomes more meaningful. You can make levers or pressure plates and people can't just torch their way through anymore.

trollingchar

Just give them no torches

nwp

Then they use grenades/bazookas/supersheep/.... Got to replace all of them if you want to go that route. But it seems like you don't, so it doesn't matter.

You could remove falling damage because that kinda makes sense.

trollingchar

12:08 PM

we're overcomplicating things

we can just make the terrain indestructible

or at least part of it

nwp

Pfft. Planning like this is fun. After all is planned out I'll abandon the idea anyways :D

trollingchar

Off-topic: in your opinion, where is the line between junior and middle, and between middle and senior?

nwp

In the talk about compensation with the boss.

TomTsagk

Do you mean in a company, or experience-wise?

trollingchar

nevermind

TomTsagk

12:24 PM

Does anyone know of a website to find people (probably paid) to try your gaim?

game*

trollingchar

I can try for free

nwp

People generally try for free. You'd only pay for a proper report and excessive testing.

TomTsagk

@trollingchar Aww thanks :3

Guess that makes sense, but what if I have a paid game for example? Just distribute free keys for some users?

nwp

Give them a key in return for filling out a form at the end or something. Alternatively add spyware into the game and you give out spyware keys. Just make sure people are aware that you are recording their progress and optimize the game around the gathered information later.

TomTsagk

Giving out keys and filling a form sounds like a good plan

I don't have the best feelings for spyware :/

trollingchar

12:31 PM

@TomTsagk just upload it to torrents)))

nwp

Don't consider it spyware then. If you are upfront with people and tell them the point of playing the game is for you to gather data, not for them to have fun then it's legitimate. As long as you do it with their consent it's fine. Personally I'd let you record how much I suck in return for getting to play a game for free.

TomTsagk

@nwp I see your point, but my issue is not with the wording. I just find it pretty weird recording users interactions with a game. I'd much rather have 5-10 testers, let them play, and hear opinions.

I plan to publish one new project around holidays, and I'm not sure yet what approach to follow

nwp

It's just as weird as letting thousands of people watch you on twitch or programming on other people's projects. People do the weirdest things for money and I don't think this one is so weird it shouldn't be done.

trollingchar

You can let the game record logs and your users send them to you manually

Is this less weird?

TomTsagk

Yeah but publishing something on twitch has clear consent, programming on other people's project also has clear consent (assuming they want to accept my changes).
But if I just have a pop-up in the beginning with something like "your actions are recorder" most people will just ignore it

I'd rather not record anything inside the game

trollingchar

12:40 PM

I don't like recording too. Even if you unchecked the option, are you sure that it is no longer spying?

TomTsagk

Not to mention the GDPR hassle

I'd much rather not record any data

nwp

GDRP has nothing to do with that.

TomTsagk

If I gather enough information to identify a person, wouldn't that be a massive GDPR violation?

nwp

No, identifying people is not illegal.

Anyways, a form probably works nicely. Put questions on what you are interested about and leave a free form field for people to write their review.

TomTsagk

Yeah, I like this approach, seems simple

trollingchar

12:43 PM

About forms. Do not make any fields required. I don't like it.

TomTsagk

Haha makes sense

So is there a paid service to actually test if a game is also fun? or if it works? Or is it just for finding bugs?

nwp

From what I understand the GDPR says people have a right to know and decide what is done with their data. Websites secretly keeping track of users through cookies is not cool, but with a banner that says "~~We're tracking you and selling your data to advertisers~~ We value your privacy" it's fine. As long as people know what is done and are able to opt out it's ok. Besides that they forced some options on cookies, but that's not your problem.

TomTsagk

Fair enough

trollingchar

omg I have found a possible deadlock

nwp

Nice.

Multithreading is just so brain-hurting. Sometimes you think you understand it and then double-check and change your mind and it just keeps going.

trollingchar

12:51 PM

It can happen after a check but before acquring the lock, so calling notify_all from the other thread has no effect

@nwp I never think I understand it.

nwp

@trollingchar That kinda sounds like double-checked locking where the second check was forgotten. Ouch.

trollingchar

I don't know what is double-check exactly but it sounds similar to what I have

there are two checks

nwp

Double-checked locking

In software engineering, double-checked locking (also known as "double-checked locking optimization") is a software design pattern used to reduce the overhead of acquiring a lock by testing the locking criterion (the "lock hint") before acquiring the lock. Locking occurs only if the locking criterion check indicates that locking is required. The pattern, when implemented in some language/hardware combinations, can be unsafe. At times, it can be considered an anti-pattern.It is typically used to reduce locking overhead when implementing "lazy initialization" in a multi-threaded environment,...

trollingchar

my case is different, there are condition variables with their spurious wakeups and I can't afford holding two locks at the same time because it's an another guaranteed deadlock

but I know where the critical section is

Vaillancourt

3:26 PM

@Elva Hmm, really? Did they change it lately?

Elva

No I don't think so

But see for example this chatlog: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/28/minecraft-talk

"11 days later" on the first page

Vaillancourt

3:53 PM

Oh wow! Ok, thanks we'll try this out :D

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