Game Development

Bálint

9:59 AM

Bálint

7k 2 12 35

opengl unity java c# 3d mathematics c++

And 7k \o/

user92578

congrats!

user92578

10:31 AM

fuck all my lib files just disappeared for some reason

user92578

like how???

user92578

hmm so apparently my master branch doesn't have those.... really really weird

Uri Popov

yep and Grandle stoped building cause some apache lib suddenly got duplicate conflicts today

must be international fucked up lib day

user92578

oh so because I added the lib files to git on another branch, and this doesn't have them, it deleted all those

user92578

git didn't care those until one branch had them and one didn't

user92578

10:45 AM

now to decide whether I'll work on OpenGL stuff today or Christmas theme stuff...

user92578

I think I'll try get a bit of both done

user92578

10:57 AM

ugh I forgot that I did the comment removal cleaning on the opengl branch, and my master looks terrible

user92578

11:36 AM

user92578

11:53 AM

okay way less merge conflicts than I expected, props to git

Casanova

12:59 PM

Lol my question was number 39,999

user92578

where do you see that?

user92578

oh nvm

user92578

that's cool!

user92578

1:16 PM

also dude your avatar is a swastika?

Casanova

me lol?

Bálint

@Tyyppi_77 It's technically not a swastika

user92578

yeah you

Casanova

hmm never noticed that lol

Bálint

The rules about what counts as a swastika and what not are surprisingly strict

If you make it triangular instead of a square, then it's not a swastika

If you remove one "branch" without changing the shape, then it's not a swastika

What the hell....There are swastikas in unicode...

Casanova

1:22 PM

lol

LastIronStar

Swastika is a good luck symbol in India I think

Casanova

it is not a nazi symbol?

user92578

http://卐.com/

user92578

wow SE chat can't parse characters like that in urls

user92578

(that's a SFW website)

LastIronStar

1:25 PM

I think it was adopted by nazis

not sure

user92578

how did you pop in here btw? an alert on the word "swastika"?

Casanova

lmao

LastIronStar

i'm a relatively new user so just browsing :)

user92578

cool

nwp

disguise it as xn--zkr.com

Bálint

1:27 PM

Oh, BTW, Godwin's law

user92578

lol

LastIronStar

haha

Casanova

Hmm God win

Bálint

Since when can you put special characters in URLs?

user92578

2010? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name

Bálint

1:30 PM

Ohh, that's fun

Casanova

So tyypi you used unity for your game?

user92578

no

user92578

A custom framework built ontop of SDL2 in C++

Casanova

game looks pretty cool man!!

user92578

thanks!

LastIronStar

1:33 PM

I've always had an interest in designing games, any suggestions on where to start?

Bálint

Design or make?

LastIronStar

this is embarrassing, what's the difference?

Bálint

Game designers sometime don't code, developers on the other hand do

Also, indie developers usually do everything from art to programming

user92578

design is the process of planning how features and mechanics work, and maybe tweaking those, while "making" actually makes those mechanics and features happen

LastIronStar

Ok thank you, I have no clue which I want to be. I have reasonable handle on C++ but my art work is pretty awful.

Casanova

1:36 PM

oh gosh i hate art

LastIronStar

My day job is research so ideally if i can gamify a problem that's hard to solve, that would be a win-win :)

user92578

yeah art was a tricky bit, I improved a lot by just drawing a lot of stuff, and looking at other people's art, combining different things from different sources

nwp

@LastIronStar If you were to make a starcraft clone, would you rather make the engine that supports arbitrary models and stats or make sure that the units are balanced and fun to play with?

user92578

That's what I used to draw like

LastIronStar

1:37 PM

@nwp the second part!

Bálint

This is what stardew valley used to look like

Stardew Valley Trailer (Old Version)

►

@LastIronStar Then designer

Try teaming up with a programmer and an artist and make a game

user92578

@Bálint Well that doesn't look bad, just not near as good as the final product

LastIronStar

@Bálint reminds me of chrono trigger

Bálint

@Tyyppi_77 1:11

It's not bad, but it got a lot better

user92578

Well unpolished UI is a whole different thing, the environments IMO are okay

LastIronStar

1:41 PM

@Bálint Thanks. Do I come up with my game's plan and then approach people? what forums do people usually use for this?

Bálint

I'm not sure, I'm technically a solo dev

LastIronStar

oh ok

nwp

Approaching people is difficult. There is a lot of fear of wasting time and incompatible goals.

LastIronStar

I agree, I don't mind writing the game myself but i don't have the slightest clue as to how to go about this. just raw ambition at this point.

nwp

@LastIronStar There are some decent frameworks like gamemaker around that let you make games without having to worry much about the programming part.

The important part is not to get hung up on unimportant details and concentrate on the core features. I recommend watching this so you can get a clearer idea of what you want to achieve.

Bálint

1:48 PM

^

GDC is always an amazing source of game design knowledge

LastIronStar

ok thank you

Stephane Hockenhull

3:29 PM

Ah, a new coder is going to learn the pain of networking and how quickly it gets complicated :D

Learning they gotta refactor everything to handle the backtrack and fast-forward part is the best.

user92578

aras-p.info/blog/2017/10/23/Best-unknown-MSVC-flag-d2cgsummary

user92578

I tried this, but I'm not too happy with the results

user92578

No huge time sinks in the compilation all though my compilations are pretty slow

user92578

largest times were like 0.2 seconds

Stephane Hockenhull

On my end I just got a lot of small files and templates. Only really hurts when I modify a base template that's used everywhere.

Full engine and game rebuild: 2m19.466s

This is what the linker command looks like in the terminal :D

678 files, 285 .cpp, 393 .h

Uri Popov

6:31 PM

why is animation so hard? Why cant it be easy

Jimmy

what's the issue?

Uri Popov

7:04 PM

I'm just complaining :D

Uri Popov

8:12 PM

Animator actually giving me the middle finger :D

Stephane Hockenhull

I tried using a precompiled header: 2m19.290s from 2m19.466s
So either the precompiled header is not being used or that's not the bottleneck at all.

That's not even a random background-cron-job worth of a difference :P

So Threadripper or EPYC Opterons might be my only choice for faster builds now. At least that's what I'm gonna tell the wife :D

Kidding. I don't have to justify it :P

Bálint

8:31 PM

I love Unity's documentation

The parameter for a method is called "grid" and is of type "GridLayout"

The documentation says:

Wouldn't have guessed that

Stephane Hockenhull

concise :P

Yeah. I rarely document parameters when they're self-explanatory

Bálint

The problem here is, that it isn't self-explanatory

After 3 days I still can't figure out how I need to use it

Stephane Hockenhull

ah well, now that is a problem

Bálint

For some reason, they give you a bound (an area between 2 3d vectors) when you need to do the preview

I thought "maybe it represents the area when the user uses boxfill", but it doesn't

It scales randomly, and only the center's useful

Bálint

8:50 PM

Finally, circles

Blue Bug

9:43 PM

So I have a question

My engine is forward rendering engine. In forward-rendered games, do they have one BIG main shader that does most rendering?

or should I switch around shaders as I try to render objects with different textures?

Bálint

@BlueBug People usually have multiple, dynamically created shaders

But uber shaders do exist

Blue Bug

I made a question

0

Q: One Giant Shader VS Many Small Shaders

I am building forward rendering engine combined with atlas shadow map technique. My goal is to build an engine that is capable of rendering similar scenes from games such as.. Doom Overwatch So I wonder, do I need to write one giant shader that does all? or do I have many different shaders fo...

shaders graphics software-engineering graphics-programming

@Bálint what do you mean by "dynamically created shaders"? Are you saying shaders are created kinda like... on fly? As the engine is executed?

I want to like

ask the person whoever wrote the engine

"HOW DID YOU MAKE THIS ENGINE!!!"

Bálint

@BlueBug Either generated on the fly or pre-generated

I'm pretty sure Overwatch has multiple shaders

I don't think they use the same one for Reaper's mostly metal gun and effects

Blue Bug

@Bálint generate shader on the fly as you are playing the game?

arent all shaders pre-generated? How can you ever have a shader generated on the fly?

Bálint

When the game starts up

Okay, let's look at an example

Threejs, because I can't think of anything else

You can create custom materials (shaders) by combining small parts

Stephane Hockenhull

10:00 PM

@BlueBug I generate shaders on the fly as needed in my engine. I got a bunch of micro-shader definitions and a system that combines them and them builds the shader.

Bálint

^

Stephane Hockenhull

@BlueBug Kind of like Photoshop has layers: "Multiply", "Additive", etc. I have: Point Light, Directional, Ambient, diffuse texture layer, modulate texture, normal texture, bump texture, etc ... That can be added even multiple times to the same shader.

Blue Bug

so by "fly" it means, there is bunch of small parts of the shader and you can "not write each shader" because your engine is capable of creating the shader you need before the game start by combining smaller parts, then compiling that new shader for you?

Stephane Hockenhull

So I got a "material" container class to which, for example, I add multiple textures "diffuse, diffuse, normal, specular" and when I try to render this the engine builds a custom shader with all those layers in order.

If I want 3 layers of diffuse (eg: add blood splatters) I can just insert another one and the engine builds a new shader.

The same applies to "light" and "shadow" layers. it's another "material" layer applied to the object. Same with cameras.

Blue Bug

It sounds something like ShaderLab where you don't ever need to write actual codes for the shader

Bálint

10:06 PM

Yes

Stephane Hockenhull

Well, I write code but they're tiny functions that do very little by its own.

Bálint

That's the idea behind it

Blue Bug

Is that correct? The only difference is that ShaderLab takes UI then convert it to shader code

But in this case, instead of UI you are working on "code" then program converts it to "shader code"

ok

I can't even begin to imagine how to build such a system tbh. Dang... :(

Stephane Hockenhull

yeah. I don't have a UI system above that. I could, but it's just as fast for me to edit a text file...

It was over a month of work ...

Blue Bug

I mean... doesn't it require coming up with systemic ways of structuring your shader codes and reading your own "shader instruction codes" then building "shader instruction codes" into "shader codes" then compiling the "shader codes" into "shader"?

Bálint

10:08 PM

@BlueBug It's just concatenating pieces of shaders together

Blue Bug

This sounsd like an insane amount of work.

Stephane Hockenhull

Nah, it's just a bunch of function calls that get ordered.

Bálint

I'd do it like this:

The main shell:

    #version 330 core

    in vec4 vertex;
    {INPUTS}

    out vec4 position;
    {OUTPUTS}

    void main(void) {
        {PARTS}
        return vertex;
    }

Then every part defines a list of lines it needs to put between inputs, outputs and "parts"

Stephane Hockenhull

^^ I got a very similar system. the syntax is different but it's the same in principle

Blue Bug

~~so like... these "keywards" in your file get replaced with bunch of codes?~~

Bálint

10:12 PM

For instance a "basic position" component would put the matrix uniforms between inputs, nothing between outputs and a vertex = projection * view * model * vertex between the parts

Not replaced, the code shouldn't replace it, so there's place for the following parts to "connect" into the system

The code would become

    #version 330 core

    in vec4 vertex;
    uniform mat4 projection;
    uniform mat4 view;
    uniform mat4 model;
    {INPUTS}

    out vec4 position;
    {OUTPUTS}

    void main(void) {
        vertex = projection * view * model * vertex;
        {PARTS}
        return vertex;
    }

Then you remove the meta tags at the end and compile the shader

You could even make the meta tags comments, so you don't have to care about removing them

Blue Bug

so each "component" does something. and "basic position" component assign the basic vertex transformation value to the variable "vertex"

Bálint

Yes

Blue Bug

I could come up with "scale vertex by some number" component or "add some number to vertex" component?

Bálint

Yes, or even a billboard component

Then do the same with the fragment shader and the color instead of the vertex position

Blue Bug

Then I guess the order of "component" in your shader instruction is important because based on the order it could either "scale then add some number to vertex" or "add some number then scale the whole thing".

Bálint

10:21 PM

Yeah

Blue Bug

oh man

This sounds so cool

but feels like LOTS of work

and easy to mass up

Bálint

Nah, it's only a couple of classes

Blue Bug

I struggle with 4 classes in college RIP

Bálint

You'll only need to write 4 lines of code to create a diffuse shader though

E.g.

user92578

And you want to make a sophisticated 3D renderer?

Bálint

10:23 PM

ShaderFactory.create()
    .addBasicPosition()
    .addDiffuse()
    .addSpecular()
    .compile();

user92578

While 4 classes are causing trouble???

Blue Bug

@Tyyppi_77 I thoght Bálint meant like classes in school. Too much college school and now I am confused between "class" in school and "class" in programming. I know it sounds crazy but I actually thought he meant "You need to take couple college classes".

user92578

wat

user92578

odd thing to confuse but okay

user92578

"Dynamic shader creation 101 & 102"

Blue Bug

10:26 PM

There is no such class in my college. Nobody teaches how to build a graphic engine :(

Mithrandir

o_o

user92578

I'd be amazed if there was a separate course for dynamic shader creation, let alone two, as it's basically just a preprocessor

Mithrandir

The English language strikes again!

user92578

We have a few 3D graphics courses available, but sadly they're in DX

Blue Bug

@Bálint so when I call "addDiffuse" or "addSpecular" program will add components such as "diffuseColor" or "specularStrength" or "diffuseTexture" (if I use texture instead of a color as my diffuse) or "specularTexture"?

Bálint

10:31 PM

Yeah

Blue Bug

So I guess the strength of this approach is that you could potentially create bunch of small operations that does fancy things and you could order them in such an order that it creates an effect?

Bálint

Yeah, it creates a layer of abstraction over the shaders

Blue Bug

But I guess "cons" is that I will have hard time creating very specific effect such as this

user92578

And less copypaste between any shader code in general

Blue Bug

user92578

10:35 PM

Not any harder than without the abstraction

Bálint

Oh, is this that game where you create custom powers by pressing different keys?

Blue Bug

@Bálint it is called Path Of Exile, Yes you can create your own skill/power by connecting stuff

Bálint

Great

No, not that much different

You give it a texture, make it reflective, make it glow somehow

Blue Bug

ok what if this particular effect does require types of code that's not used in any other shaders?

For an example edge detected material code

Bálint

If you do it with a custom shader, then it'll require a whole shader, that's not used by anything else in the game

And dozens of custom shaders

Blue Bug

10:42 PM

@Bálint are you saying...in that special case I just need to either write a whole shader or I need to come up with a unique "component" that is used only once for that particular effect shader?

Bálint

If it needs a unique component, then there's no problem with that, it's better than creating a whole custom shader

Blue Bug

ok clear

:O

ok I can do this. I will struggle but I can do this.

ty @Bálint @StephaneHockenhull I think is super cool and happy to know how to do this now... I am... probably gona need to spend a month I guess?

Bálint

On this one thing?

Blue Bug

yes

Bálint

Probably a week if you get the hang of it

Stephane Hockenhull

10:50 PM

Depend how complicated/flexible you want it to be...

Blue Bug

On top of my head I am still clueless how you would manage the buffer though

depending on the instructions the required data that need to be put on buffer for the shader is different?

do I just assume "the worst possible scenario" and put all the possibly required information inside the buffer?

like ex) .addBasicPosition().compile() will only need vert position and world view projection matrix inside buffer to transform "basic position"

.addBasicPosition().addSpecular().compile() will need basic position and world view projection matrix inside buffer to transform "basic position" then a float value that determines the specular strength inside a buffer?

user92578

What buffer?

Blue Bug

buffer inside my shader to hold all the "uniform variables"

Stephane Hockenhull

I build the buffer according to the components parameters.

Blue Bug

oh!

Stephane Hockenhull

10:58 PM

Each layer has a uniform "struct" definition

Blue Bug