The Heap™ – Consultancy ©® - 2019-10-23 (page 1 of 2)

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5:23 AM

@PaulWhite Good answer here...

80

A: An apology to our community, and next steps

This is a plot of the up and down votes on this announcement (taking into account retracted up- and downvotes). On the left, we believed your apology. We thought you were sincere and wanted to fix this. On the right we realised you were just saying this to pacify us again, and do not care a...

Morning

1 hour later…

6:29 AM

Morning

6:50 AM

-5 pts – no axis labels. Also, without freehand red circles, I have no idea what the text is referring to :P — divibisan Oct 17 at 21:42

@divibisan just for you: i.stack.imgur.com/Wsbn4.jpg — Tim Oct 17 at 21:47

Mornin

7:08 AM

morning

7:26 AM

Joe Rogan on pronouns.... youtube.com/watch?v=wm5E5BLIAik

Morning

George.Palacios

7:46 AM

Morning

Boy... that transcript today

8:04 AM

@George.Palacios ?

George.Palacios

8:30 AM

@Philᵀᴹ Just reading through Evans plans to conquer the world

They're not plans, more certainties

Pronouns FAQ 1.0 has been deleted and replaced with FAQ 2.0:

42

Q: What does the Code of Conduct say about pronouns?

Please leave any feedback or questions about this FAQ on this other post. Two weeks ago, we updated The Code of Conduct to directly address concerns over pronoun usage. We tried to anticipate likely questions, but… missed the mark a bit. Inspired by Gareth McCaughan’s excellent post, “A Pr...

support faq code-of-conduct

"What if someone wants to be referred to as "the Great and Mighty One" -- Evan may be in trouble here

George.Palacios

> 2. May I use they/them by default?
Yes, but be prepared to make adjustments if so requested. If someone requests that you use other pronouns and you immediately continue to use they/them for that person, we may point it out to you.

They've softened that rule heavily

but I imagine it'll still cause some friction

8:45 AM

As I read it, as a user, you have two choices in that situation: (1) Use the pronoun you have been given; (2) Disengage without doing harm.

George.Palacios

Yeah that makes sense.

I personally have no issue with disengaging in a situation where somebody cares about how I'm referring to them more to than the information I'm providing.

5

I'm here for the latter

But it'll be interesting to see some of the more hardline opinions on the matter

> Some people are neither men nor women

I beg to disagree

In my opinion, some people believe they are neither men nor women

George.Palacios

This probably isn't the place for that discussion, but that's a vastly oversimplified view of what is emerging, complex science.

Which they are perfectly entitled too, but I disagree that I should be made to be believe that too. That doesn't excuse me from being rude but just pointing out

George.Palacios

@AndriyM I'm not sure that anyone is telling you what to believe, just what not to say

9:04 AM

No, you are right, they are not telling me to believe that, but still they are saying that as something that is an established fact. Granted, I've heard that there are actual medical cases that can make it difficult to determine a given person's sex but that's probably not (or not primarily) what they are talking about there.

So yeah, vastly oversimplified

At the very least

George.Palacios

9:18 AM

@AndriyM have you not come across people who say incorrect facts before? Why is this any different?

People have belief systems man. Fact is difficult for humans as it matters far, far less than being in an inclusive, loving environment.

I find the implication that the "facts" even matter to be quite odd to be honest.

Putting incorrect (or unproven) facts in a FAQ is a different matter

George.Palacios

Because it's not really about those facts, it's about building an inclusive environment (rightly or wrongly)

The facts are nearly irrelevant

If it wasn't misgendering it would be something else in a few years.

Wording it like that ("Some people are..." rather than "Some people believe they are...") is implying as if the whole world is already on board with the idea. So by not believing it I'm effectively making out myself to be one of the few stubborn ones

I might be happier if it read, "We believe some people are...", because that's essentially what I understand to be the case

@AndriyM You won't be allowed to say that under the new FAQ

@PaulWhite Thank you for the heads-up

9:27 AM

You can believe what you like of course

For the time being

@AndriyM See point 5 in meta.stackexchange.com/a/336369/194636

> Am I still welcome on Stack Exchange sites?
You are, but some of the things you might want to say aren't.

@AndriyM That wording was in an earlier draft (maybe even Gareth's I don't recall offhand). It was explicitly changed to the stronger wording after feedback.

The position is that if someone says they are e.g. a man, then they literally are, not that they 'believe' they are.

I really don't expect this ever to come up as an issue on dba.se but I suppose it might

George.Palacios

@PaulWhite Is it? I've not seen that statement in the FAQ, only that you should refer to them as if they were.

@George.Palacios I'm am relaying the company's position and the feedback from other moderators as best I understand it.

George.Palacios

I see. Interesting

9:38 AM

You are welcome to try asking about it explicitly on meta, but I would not expect that to go well.
Rude/abusive flags have been flying around for less.

George.Palacios

Yeah I bet

I think they've misplayed this again. The belief part, if that is the case, is wholly irrelevant to their end goals

At which point, they're making a political point, not building a community. Bah

@Philᵀᴹ .A.MAN.A.PLAN.PANAMA.

There may be an element of personal politics involved - who could know - but my sense is overall that SE simply think this is the right thing to do.

People are free to agree or disagree with them.

Reeds the same backwards: .AMANAP.LANP.A.NAM.A.

We should send Evan to Panama?

9:40 AM

With a plan

Because he's the man

@PaulWhite as long as they disagree elsewhere ;)

Or a man

@George.Palacios I don't think they can "win" any more

George.Palacios

I guess I'm saying that if they want people to misgendering, the best way to do that is to not even comment on the reality of the situation and simply say that they don't want misgendering. The "facts" muddy the waters, because facts are never facts when said by a human.

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Or keep quiet about it here maybe.

The new FAQ is a small win for SE (albeit largely the work of non-SE people).

9:43 AM

@PaulWhite yeah, it's cool here. The hot - burning - area is meta

A big win would be getting Monica and two Community Managers into an actual productive discussion about the way forward for her personally.

@ypercubeᵀᴹ Yes by "here" I meant anywhere on SE's platform.

13

A: Make viewing deleted posts and vote counts more widely available on Meta SE

This is an excellent suggestion. This meta needs more oversight of deleted posts from users with 10k somewhere else on the network. There is an interesting parallel to the way chat flags work Users with the privilege to see deleted posts or view vote splits on any single network site should hav...

2 hours later…

11:48 AM

@PaulWhite I'm seriously surprised by Monica's stance. I would have my lawyer call SE ;)

Meh. The only people that can't lose in legal cases are the lawyers.

1 hour later…

1:07 PM

@AndriyM I had somebody explain it to me 'there are only 2 sexes but multiple genders' which is strange to me since it translates to the same word but might make more sense

One is the biological chromosome binary option and the other is something else. 'sexual orientation' might be close to translate able in dutch

1:48 PM

@TomV already that is far from being binary (although the non-default options are rare)

according to uptodate.com/contents/sex-chromosome-abnormalities up to .5%

2:16 PM

@dezso If you mean the "1 in 448 births" bit, it's slightly more than 0.2%

2:26 PM

@AndriyM I didn't, but that doesn't change the fact my math was wrong

George.Palacios

@dezso These people aren't generally referring to genetic differences necessarily

A lot of it is more about a sense of identity

In my view anyway

The genetic stuff likely includes that group though

@dezso sure the point was you can look at it biologically or emotional

George.Palacios

@TomV That's how I understand it too

"Social construct" I think is the term used by many

George.Palacios

@AndriyM Yeah exactly. Some people use that to mean that gender is completely unrelated to biological sex

as in, not linked in any way

Which I find ... interesting, and don't agree with personally, but I can for sure understand that people also want to be accepted for who they feel they are, whether that's factual or not

2:44 PM

there is an interesting analysis to be had looking at masculine and feminine characteristics of people and much they overlap

for example, competitiveness is stereotypically a masculine trait

the overlap between sexes is such that there's very little difference except at the extremes

so there are a great many women with higher masculine characteristics than most men

it's interesting to ponder

Corny name aside, I was recently watching Extreme Engagement on Netflix and it was an interesting peek into how many of what we regard as stereotypical gender traits really vary culture to culture.

indeed

but anything outside the US doesn't really count

we're rounding errors

😢

Now thats an objective truth we can all agree on.

Finally some common ground

@George.Palacios I was very specifically addressing @TomV's notion of the binaryness of biological sex, which is obviously not what is the main topic (or maybe a subset, or an overlapping set, I don't know despitebeing an ex-geneticist)

2:54 PM

all my genes are too tight these days

3

@dezso Ex-geneticist? Ex why?

goodness me

@AndriyM because I am a DB guy, as you might have noticed :D

@dezso read it again

@PaulWhite I don't dare

2:56 PM

Thank you

@AndriyM I hope you're ashamed of yourself

George.Palacios

@dezso Ah that makes sense

@PaulWhite I'm certainly round and cause a lot of errors

@PaulWhite I'm almost crying right now

Sit in the corner and think about what you've done

if only I understood what you lot are talking about

2:58 PM

Ex why? = XY!

That's as JEAGL as I'm gonna get

2

George.Palacios

> Suspended mod REFUSES to follow room rules

News at 11

is that a binary 11?

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

It's already 100 now.

Overflow

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

3:09 PM

@CadeRoux RegisterOverflow.

Does this make us a register machine

Does absence of a question mark at the end of a sentence stop the sentence being a question

Maybe it makes it a rhetorical question

Is a yes/no question binary?

null

A ternary one then

3:17 PM

it depends

@AndriyM and with 'dunno'?

@AndriyM Did anyone say it was ok to leave your corner?

Um, no-one said it wasn't either...

He'll get us all suspended

@TomV he?

3:24 PM

@AndriyM Welcome back!

@ypercubeᵀᴹ They?

@TomV yeah, "they" as "Andriy and Paul" ;)

Mr Dalliard, we are getting silly again!

The silliness has definitely increased in this room since Paul isn't moderating

It's like we are allowed to have fun again

2

George.Palacios

We were always allowed to have fun, it was just frowned upon

4

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

3:32 PM

@TomV I'm totally serious.

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells We expect nothing less from you

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells A likely story

@Valorum Of course it's a live hand grenade. A respected moderator was summarily removed for pre-thoughtcrime over this issue. I, personally, will not touch any post like this until at the very least the official FAQ is finalized. I advise any other user to do the same. SE created this mess so let them clean it up. — Null ♦ yesterday

@TomV 😥

Fun was always allowed. In officially-approved small doses of the correct type.

How else would Evan still have an account here?
Or Andriy for that matter

George.Palacios

Fun™

3:44 PM

@PaulWhite Thought police avant-la-lettre

"you can have fun, but only the kind of fun I approve of"

It's nice to have clear rules isn't it

You should post them on meta

And revise them a few times

We should be good by FAQ 23.0

Of course it'll be just McNets and jcolebrand by then

Approved by Jordan himself

George.Palacios

FAQ 42 answers the question

3:47 PM

What is six times nine

George.Palacios

Not that question, the question

That is the question

That's it, that's all there is

George.Palacios

the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything

yes

> What do you get if you multiply six by nine?

3:50 PM

I always felt something was fundamentally wrong with the universe

That is the Ultimate Question en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

It does explain a lot

George.Palacios

Isn't it 6 * 7?

lol

Ready linky

Shows their age

Does eh

George.Palacios

3:52 PM

Oh base 13

lol

Not really

We should ban anyone from here that hasn't read HHGttG within the last five years

The whole book is full of weird jokes like that

And double ban those who pretend they read it but watched the movie instead

> At the end of ... the novel The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, Arthur Dent, having escaped the Earth's destruction, potentially has some of the computational matrix in his brain. He attempts to discover The Ultimate Question by extracting it from his brainwave patterns, as abusively suggested by Ford Prefect, when a Scrabble-playing caveman spells out forty two. Arthur pulls random letters from a bag, but only gets the sentence "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?"

@TomV Oh dear lord the movie

George.Palacios

@TomV 6 * 9 is 42 in base 13 though 😉

3:55 PM

I think Doug Adams refuted that

And he's known for being serious all the time

George.Palacios

I think his specific was something like "I don't make jokes in base 13"

lol

1 hour later…

5:07 PM

→ 4 messages moved to Trash

lameness relocated

@PaulWhite howdy

@swasheck hey stranger

what's new?

oh not much

user image

i've seen your name out-and-about

5:09 PM

Very succinct and accurate

Hey @swasheck

hey @AndriyM

@swasheck have you indeed. on a Wanted poster?

@PaulWhite more like "oh and that guy, too"

ah well I'm sure I'm in an illustrious group of peers

so that sounds nice

if only as an afterthought

well you seemed to have been in decent company, taking a stand for personal beliefs and such

5:12 PM

@PaulWhite didnt you quit moderating???

@swasheck Well one does what one can you know how it is

@EvanCarroll Still a room owner, boyo

'tis all we can do with what we're given, @PaulWhite

well make me an owner and step down ffs

@EvanCarroll I will give that serious thought!

As soon as I stop giggling.

Besides you have your own room

you keep deleting my own room

5:14 PM

I did no such thing!

the trash can?

LIBEL!

nein.

@swasheck No Evan had set up a helpful room for ex-mods to chat in

zehn

5:15 PM

Jack linked to it

oh

I could find it maybe

sweet

i'm so out of touch.

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/99937

@swasheck How long have you been away? Seems like ages

indeed.

5:16 PM

A lot has happened in the past month or so

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/54583/…

2-3 years, i believe

i'm just not smart enough to hang out here anymore

Paul White has removed Evan Carroll from the list of this room's owners.

@EvanCarroll It was auto deleted for inactivity

BECAUSE YOU KILLED IT

5:17 PM

OMG YOU KILLED KENNEY

see.. i said "No fascists, racists, sexists, Microsoft users, bigots, liberals, or capitalists allowed" and that got me banned

@EvanCarroll No no no no no no silly person

alt right network

I'm talking about Good Bye Mods

which one, evan?

5:18 PM

The Revolutionary Heap VERSION 2 was ages ago

Like when I was young

> A room to celebrate the mods no one appreciates, stepping down and making the network better for everyone.

mods also deleted version one in defense of fascism chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/54470

@EvanCarroll No that was explicitly because we hate you

yall delete all my tremendously popular channels

It is an outrage I grant you

But whatcha gonna do

OUTRAGE GRANTED

5:21 PM

looks like i show up and the heap goes to crap

some things never change

Paul White has added Evan Carroll to the list of this room's owners.

@swasheck nah we're all having fun here

Evan Carroll has removed Tom V from the list of this room's owners.

Evan Carroll has removed Lamak from the list of this room's owners.

Evan Carroll has removed Jack Douglas from the list of this room's owners.

Paul White has removed Evan Carroll from the list of this room's owners.

REVOLUTION

snigger

5:22 PM

RACISM

Paul White has added Tom V to the list of this room's owners.

Paul White has added Lamak to the list of this room's owners.

Paul White has added Jack Douglas to the list of this room's owners.

i almost abolished the ruling class

was it fun while it lasted though

you can no longer say I never give you anything

2

seriously though you made jack an owner again?

wtf is wrong with you...

@EvanCarroll yeah he seems like a responsible person

5:24 PM

up with the proletariat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heh heh heh

the people demand an end to the regime!!!

this is a little corner of sanity on the network

i vote this room go ownerless

@EvanCarroll the people demand proper spelling!

5:25 PM

i blame planck

ANARCHY

Would it be ironic if Evan drove me to pick up the diamond hammer again just so I could ban him properly

something something serverless, schemaless onwerless room as a service

stop pretending like you're not a beta mod.

Bill will never be a room owner. Clouded judgement.

@EvanCarroll I aspire to be beta!

5:28 PM

well... you certainly wouldn't be hitlers fav with an attitude like that.

Rooms aspire to be free, cain't nobody own a room. It's like trying to own thoughts

😥

see...

your notion of room ownership is being challenged....

@billinkc That's very profound

IF APPOINTED TO OWNER I WILL FIX THIS

ball is in your court betamod.

btw betamod is the dankest term ever.

5:30 PM

@PaulWhite I'm on a lot of tea this morning

@EvanCarroll er is that good?

@billinkc Are you in England?

Red Army Choir: Bella Ciao.

gah! grammarly!

@PaulWhite Kentucky. Surrounded by chickens, clucking and drinking tea with their pinkies out, all proper like

@billinkc paints a picture. kinda odd with evan's music selection playing in the background

freemusicarchive.org/label/Betamod

ah well enough fun

back to the salt mines

5:35 PM

sql server is more like a tar pit

salt mine is good living

@Feeds moment of counter revolution

anyone learning rust?

anyone read or do domain driven design?

I should kick Evan for old times sake

If there was anyone left in the teachers lounge, you'd get them a running here

nah kicks don't summon mods

well not unless you kick three times

What was it? We did something one day and a whole flood. there, that's what it was

flags

a.k.a calling the cops

@TomV everyone should, on a regular basis, he likes it

5:48 PM

narc everywhere

it reminds him he's not an RO

he who laughs last laughs best

@PaulWhite Is it three times in a row or three times in a set period of time or regardless?

@AndriyM three kicks for the same person

Try it on old punching bag there

(joke!)

Three for the same person from the same person, correct?

5:50 PM

@EvanCarroll Jeff hasn't stopped laughing in three years

@AndriyM No I think three on the same target is enough

I can't say as I've ever tried it

Thanks

jeff was like G2G bye!!!!

People normally get the idea after the second kick (which lasts 5 mins)

@EvanCarroll I have this image of him sipping cocktails on beach somewhere reading meta

now he spends all his time on the yacht

sounds like a tough life

5:53 PM

i wonder if this shithole changed his ideas of a meritocracy

@EvanCarroll wieliczka is awesome

probably changed his ideas about tax havens

2

hahhaha

definitely

you see that stupid ass post he made a while ago shitting on unions

I don't really follow him

WHY DONT I HAVE FRIENDS I HAVE IDEAS!!!!!!!

5:55 PM

I don't know why people do that

class interests

I should say: I don't follow him at all

might be nice to have friends

for the same reason Ellen is friends with Bush

@EvanCarroll I'm glad you put a capital B on that

Isn't that capital

5:56 PM

But at the risk of falling for something, yes it is nice when people with opposite views can get on

@AndriyM strike two bucko

Better get back to the corner

Hey can you imagine an election where someone ran against Evan and lost

I would probably have them executed immediately. One has to consolidate power, etc.

Seems fair

I can't figure out how to kick they on mobile so it's getting away this time

5:59 PM

look at what happened here. i had room owner privs. i was abolishing ownership of this scarce asset. and then, we had a counter revolution.

should have done away with Paul

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