So... if anyone wants to talk about anything I'll be here ;)
I do think there are some things to be said still about 'rudeness' and related topics
but apparently, once one tries to force the discussion to be more organized, all participants lose their desire to debate. Perhaps, that's the real value of having a chatroom like this: You all get to cool down and have to actually think, so less nonsense gets said.
@Danu what you said in the hbar is not right: It is not true that PO allows namecalling (such as moron, idiot, etc). I admit that one incident happend, which is the issue Kyle linked too, in the past. But as I already said, it was dealt with and people who observe such things should just flag them or write to admin.
I have nothing more to say at the moment, but I will observe this chatroom and respond(maybe with a time lag because I am currently travelling) if needed.
@Dilaton Sorry if I made the impression that I thought PO allows namecalling - it is pretty obvious to me that PO does not. I personally really don't have any issues with anyone; I've tried both PO and PSE, and feel that they just cater to a different audience (PSE is more suitable for me, because I'm not (yet) at a level that is taken to be the norm at PO). The 'Ron issue' is something I'd just like to let rest, I don't think much progress can be made ;)
A community ad caught my eye, and I visited http://www.physicsoverflow.org. What are the links between Physics SE and Physics Overflow and how are they different from each other?
Physics.SE had a user named Ron Maimon. He got into a lot of conflicts, in part because of his advocacy of ideas like cold fusion, and in part because he made posts that were rude, angry, or threatening. He claimed that being rude was a good thing, and this is one of the guiding principles of physicsoverflow: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/15033214#15033214 . He was banned for longer and longer periods of time. His most extreme posts were deleted, so many people never saw his most extreme behavior. This was a big factor leading to the creation of physicsoverflow.
@BenCrowell any external chat discussion or events that took place outside PhysicsOverflow are irrelevant, what is relevant is the discription in the FAQ. Concerning such issues we maintain the same guideline as SE: What happend outside the site (elsewhere in the internet) stays outside. This comment is therefore off. Misrepresenting PhysicsOverflow based on your personal disagreements with Ron Maimon (and without ever having been a member of PhysicsOverflow yourself), is rather unprofessional to say the least.
I would tend to side with Arnold Neumaier in that there is no real need to be rude to carry one's point across, that being rude will make other people less inclined to hear one's point of view, and indeed that a civil atmosphere is essential to a successful site - but the Physics Overflow administrators seem to think otherwise.
@EmilioPisanty yes, Arnold s answer is the most upvoted one and all administrators agreed with it. So even though this feature is not enabled, Arnold s answer can be considered as accepted and maybe it would be a good idea to copy it into the FAQ.
Also concerning the really bad things you mention, such things should of course be flagged or people can also write a mail to the admin mail adress. Updating the FAQ correspondingly is a good idea, so thanks for pointing this out.
@Dilaton Note that Arnold's answer, while it contains good arguments, is not really conclusive, and if you copy it verbatim into your FAQ it will be very ambiguous. As a prospective user of PO, what I'd like to know is this: if someone harasses me on this site (going from mild name-calling to all-out campaigns), will the site take action? What if those posts have some physics content as well?. This should be in your FAQ, spelled out clearly, and isn't (yet). Personally, I wouldn't go for that sort of atmosphere, but if you think there's a market for it then I do hope you find it.
@EmilioPisanty of course is explicit name calling not appropriate on PhysicsOverflow and we did and still do remove inappropriate comments or insulting parts get edited out. People who feel harassed can use flags or the admin mail to indicate this. PhysicsOverflow does not tolerate nonsense or trolling, conversely to what other comments here try to insinuate. Yes, the FAQ probably needs some updates, we will discuss this.
@Dilaton: People who feel harassed can use flags or the admin mail to indicate this Except, as indicated by Emilio's links, one of the admins is doing the harassing, so what good is it to "flag an admin?"
From my understanding PO aims at research or research track discussions. Anybody who has worked in large research physics groups must have observed the great variety of behaviors of people. In my opinion the rudeness gauge lowers the better a physicist one is talking with , but as with necessary and sufficient, rudeness is not sufficient to be a better physicist . We say in greek "the cassock does not make the priest". It is true that at physics.se with the lower level of users, some completely ignorant of physics and some beginning highschool students needs a soft policy, particularly
for students, and I have been talking about this at times, the fast hold or the fast duplicate, though I think that the moderators have found a balance by now. BUT at a research track/level discussion the decision of what is rudeness and what is politeness should be lower. I accept "a what nonsense are you talking about Anna" from an equal or better physicist without flinching , because I may be talking nonsense if I am a my limits of knowledge. I do not consider it rude in the discussion, the way I would consider absolutely rude " you are ignorant". The rule should be "characterize the action
not the person" . A person can say stupid things and be absolutely brilliant, as the story I have recorded elsewhere of Feynman and the rising moon shows. So anybody aiming at a competitive research career in physics should be prepared that sometimes there will be flak. If one is scared of the fire, one should not aim to be a firefighter.
@New_new_newbie I am copying from a web page of mine, though I have said at the wattsupwithat.com blog. :I think this is the point to tell once more my Feynman story, which would make any scientist that has put a foot in the mouth feel in good company.
This is in 1980, after Feynman had his first operations and when he was feeling well enough to go to conferences, in Crete, at a theoretical workshop. It is the second day he is in Greece, the first being spent going around the "must sees" of Athens with yours truly, so definitely jet lagged.
It is after sunset, and many eminent physicists are having a drink on a veranda overlooking the Aegean, and several greek ones from other disciplines attracted by the pole of Feynman (as yours truly). There is small talk and a lull in conversation and suddenly the full moon draws the attention on the horizon in all its glory, reflected in the waters. Feynman looks and observes: " that must be the West then".
The interest in the story is not the slip of Feynman, it is the reaction of the physicists. Feynman said it after all, so that must be the west. I do not remember if T'Hooft was there at the time, he sure was at the workshop. It remained for yours truly, youngest and most irrelevant in the company to sputter: "but,but, but". end of story
@New_new_newbie well the company woke up from the spell so there was a general hubbub. I think I was for a while remembered as "that woman physicist who told Feynman he was wrong" :)
@KyleKanos yes of course as in every online community, adminitrators can err and make mistakes, get carried away in passionate discussions, etc ... This is why there are several administrators and not just one dictator. And believe me, on PhysicsOverflow administrators did and do correct each other up to calling each other out for things that went blatantly wrong if needed. The second happens not on the site itself of course... But generally I agree with Anna: The targetted audience of PO is advanced students and grown up physicists, who can stomach more robust discussions than high-schoolers.
@annav: BUT at a research track/level discussion the decision of what is rudeness and what is politeness should be lower. I accept "a what nonsense are you talking about Anna" from an equal or better physicist without flinching Something like this should be accepted by most without flinching. However, gathering from the linked posts, the words chosen were moron and idiot (among others?), these words should not be used among "research level" people to describe another. That type of behaviour is usually rooted out at young ages, and shouldn't be observed at 20+ year old people.
@KyleKanos all moron, idiot, and related business was efficently stopped and kept out since the link you mentioned was relevant... Should it reappear just flag it.
@Danu it is the other participiants in the discussion who ask questions and bring up criticism, so I have to respond properly as well as clarify and explain things. But yes I agree that it would be better to discuss in chat. Maybe even the existing comments could be moved into a corresponding chat room (by the help of a moderator?).
@Danu thanks for the above clarification. BTW I and also Dimension10 always thought your questions should rather be on-topic for PO, so you are aleays welcome to try it if you feel like :-)
@Dilaton I have to say I always feel a bit intimidated by some people on PO... :\ (seriously... I wouldn't want to ask a 'stupid' question on there, I'd get butchered)
...but I can give it a shot if an question of mine doesn't find an answer on PSE :)
I would also be more than happy, if things that happend in the past, such as any stories related to Ron could rest in peace now, and also if the hostility bezween PO and P.SE could be stopped some time in the future. On PO there is no hostile talk about other sites, of course we sometimes explain what we do differently (user interface, software, and yes some policy too).
I think the wirst thing that should happen is that somebody says your question is not up to the level and it gets closed. It happend to me once too ;-). My really stupid questions I do not ask on PO either ...
A community ad caught my eye, and I visited http://www.physicsoverflow.org. What are the links between Physics SE and Physics Overflow and how are they different from each other?
Discussion on question by Deer Hunter…
Discussion on question by Deer Hunter…