The Factory Floor - 2017-12-06

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11:11 AM

Hi all. I'm sorry for interrupting but it has been a few weeks and I am not sure whether or not my sandbox question is good for posting. If you have some minutes to spare (and will to do so :)), can you please review this draft? Thank you all. worldbuilding.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5583/7974

2 hours later…

1:08 PM

@HendrikLie I'll take a look at it and post a comment either way.

@JDługosz Thanks

3 hours later…

Future Historian

4:17 PM

I am alive.

@Gryphon? You were saying?

@sphennings. The blog post is going to be on the Universal Factory.

Remember?

Sorry for disappearing on you that way.

School WIFI is one of the worst things ever invented.

Anything you want help with?

Future Historian

In the States? I can tell.

Nope, Canada.

Close though

Future Historian

@Gryphon? Remember that link I posted on the Cuban Missile Crisis' order of battle?

Yeah, one sec, let me go up and find it.

The alternatewars one, right?

Future Historian

4:25 PM

Well, just try and see how much of a problem those Soviet/Cuban MiGs and SAMs would have in shooting them down.

Yes.

:P

So, @Gryphon? Could the Cubans and Soviets save some of the missile sites or would it be too much for the MiGs and SAMs?

And this is during the initial air strikes before the subsequent invasion and tactical nuclear strikes.

So, 700+ AAs, and 60 MiGs.

Is what it says there.

Future Historian

So, how long could they last against the American aircraft?

And the US has about 100 squadrons of strategic bombardment aircraft.

If I'm looking right.

How many in a squadron?

Future Historian

16 - 24 aircraft per squadron.

And NOTE: I am talking about the assets near Cuba.

Ignoring nuclear warheads for a second.

It doesn't say where the strategic bombardmant aircraft are.

Can we assume they can get most of them there?

Future Historian

4:32 PM

Well, that is why I am asking for the F-100s, F-104s and F-105s near Cuba.

And NOTE: I need you to ignore total and skip to Cuba.

Soviet forces and Cuban forces in the area.

Ignore Europe and nuclear weapons for a second.

OK. Soviet forces in and around Cuba.

And Cuban forces, obviously.

Within a few hours, Cuba can get 175,000 troops.

Future Historian

Except that the Soviets have 100 tactical nukes ready to bombard Havana and Guantanamo Bay just in case.

As for the total amount of aircraft, I found 399 aircraft vs 102 aircraft in total around Cuba.

Soviets have 12 Rifle Battalions, 4 Tank Battalions on the island.

Future Historian

25 US squadrons to bombard Cuba, 6 Soviet/Cuban squadrons to keep the Americans away from the missile sites, ignoring the SAMs.

Yeah, not going to end well for the Soviets.

Future Historian

4:38 PM

The F-104s try to stop those MiGs, and the F-100s and F-105s strike their ground targets.

Anti-Aircraft does how much?

Future Historian

30 F-104s, though.

The rest are F-100s and F-105s.

How much do the Cuban AA guns do?

There's 700 of them.

Or more.

Future Historian

The S-75 Dvina (Russian: С-75; NATO reporting name SA-2 Guideline) is a Soviet-designed, high-altitude air defence system, built around a surface-to-air missile with command guidance. Since its first deployment in 1957 it became one of the most widely deployed air defence systems in history. It scored the first destruction of an enemy aircraft by a surface-to-air missile, shooting down a Taiwanese Martin RB-57D Canberra over China, on 7 October 1959, hitting it with three V-750 (1D) missiles at an altitude of 20 km (65,600 ft). This success was attributed to Chinese fighter aircraft at the time...

These are the Soviet ones.

(72 * 2) + (288 * 2) = ???????

72 launchers with 288 missiles per PVO division.

720

How many missiles to bring down an aircraft? On average.

Future Historian

4:42 PM

144 launchers + 576 missiles.

Oh.

So, how long to reload a launcher?

Roughly?

Future Historian

So, 700 in total of the following.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZPU, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_mm_air_defense_gun_KS-19, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZP_S-60.

How many of them per design is unknown.

So far, I can say 6 missiles before reloading.

@Gryphon.

OK

Future Historian

And NOTE: The SA-2/S-75 Dvina missile launcher is the same type of missile launcher that killed Maj. Rudolf Anderson while flying his U-2 spy plane in our timeline; hours before the B-59 nuclear submarine fired its torpedo in this timeline.

OK. So, the torpedo gets fired, how long until the attack on the Cuban missile bases?

Future Historian

4:52 PM

Kennedy schedules the attack for to begin within the hour, and all US forces go to DEFCON 1.

As in: an hour after the torpedo is fired, and negotiations break down.

So, an hour. I don't think any missile bases are going to survive. Soviet response is to push west in Europe.

And they obviously go to whatever their version of DEFCON 1 is too.

Future Historian

NOTE: Mach 1.3 is how fast an F-100 can go, Mach 2 for the F-104s and and Mach 2.08 for the F-105s.

@Gryphon, either that or I can just delay by next morning, while not telling the Soviets about it.

Not sure, actually.

It has to be a timeframe in which some of the missile sites survive, but not all of them.

Because you need some more nukes to hit the US?

Or some other reason?

Future Historian

Well, the former, actually.

Remember: the Americans have no knowledge of the 100 tactical nukes, BUT some of the MRBM and IRBM sites NEED to survive to justify an invasion of Cuba itself.

Of course, they will get nuked anyway.

So.........

Given that, what is a good time to launch the initial air strikes before invading?

@Gryphon? I forgot to mention. In our timeline, the 29th was when OPLAN 316 was supposed to be executed if Kennedy ordered it and the Soviets did not back down.

In this timeline, is it going to remain the same or will the Americans choose to rush the attacks in response to the nuclear torpedo problem?

If they launch the air strikes within the hour, you can decide that one or two missile sites survive (You're the author, after all) to justify the invasion of Cuba.

Future Historian

4:58 PM

I just want to know.

I would say they would probably invade as soon as possible, in response to the nuke.

Future Historian

But if I wait until the 29th, what happens?

Well, fine.

If they wait until the 29th.

Future Historian

@Gryphon? If they wait, what happens?

Maybe you can destroy all the missiles, and they invade in retaliation for the Soviet invasion of europe.

Would that work?

Future Historian

5:00 PM

Well, fine.

Rushing it is, then.

OK. So they rush in to destroy any remaining missiles. Everyone dies in nuclear fire.

Right?

Future Historian

More or less.

The Sagua la Grande MRBM site and the Remedios IRBM site still have a few operational launchers, so the invasion is executed.....oblivious to what the Soviets have planned for the Americans, while Western Europe is invaded.

Then..........BOOM!

So, the Soviets nuke Cuba. Where from?

Future Historian

As the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions land and the Marines expand the perimeter around Guantanamo Bay, 100 tactical nukes are detonated in their face.

@Gryphon. See that order of battle?

The Luna launchers, the Cruise Missiles and some IL-28 bombers had nuclear explosives ready to be used on the Americans on Havana and Guantanamo Bay just in case.

Oh, I see that now.

So, Cuba=Nuclear Wasteland.

Future Historian

5:04 PM

The Central Cuban silos are still operational, but most of the Western Cuban silos are knocked out.

How many Cuban missiles left?

Future Historian

@Gryphon. Not just Cuba.....Germany is next, followed by the majority of the Northern Hemisphere.

11 total left.

So, in retaliation for the American invasion of Cuba, the Soviets invade Europe, fail miserably in nuclear fire.

Future Historian

6 SS-4 MRBMs and 5 SS-5 IRBMs are still operational.

What happens after the failed invasion of Europe?

Future Historian

5:07 PM

So, after the tactical nukes are launched, and the nuclear exchange in Germany results in nuclear obliteration, MAD happens.

No one knows who launched first, but.....within hours, most of the Northern Hemisphere is reduced to rubble.

Yep. Do the Americans have time to use The Really, Really, Really FINAL US Plan to Hit Cuba?

Where the essentially wipe out the entire island?

Future Historian

@Gryphon. By the time they execute it, the missiles have already left the silos.

Got it.

Future Historian

So, by then...it is too late.

One by one, missiles, and bombers rain fire on their targets, and chunks of the Northern Hemisphere erupts into pure, white blinding light.

Followed by mushroom clouds over chunks of the nuked areas.

Wait, why would either side launch first. The Americans just wiped out the Soviets in Europe, not a lot of further threats other than MAD. The Soviets got wiped out in Europe, but they were invading it, so there isn't a lot of provocation there either.

My money would still be on a Soviet first launch, but even that seems unlikely.

@FutureHistorian?

Hello?

Future Historian

5:39 PM

@Gryphon? I am alive.

And I meant MAD.

That is the point.

Global Thermonuclear War happens.

@Gryphon? I am alive.

Sorry. I don't see why either side would decide to fire first here?

Future Historian

Well, what I mean is that it escalates into global thermonuclear war.

Alright?

Yeah, I get that. But, why would either side fire?

Why does one side make it escalate into global thermonuclear war?

The Soviets might, in retaliation for Europe, but I don't think the Americans would.

Maybe in retaliation for Cuba?

Future Historian

5:55 PM

More or less.

The Soviets detect the B-47 bombers en route to Cuba, then fire before the bombers arrive, followed the nuclear exchange that destroys modern civilisation.

6:08 PM

OK. That makes sense.

Future Historian

@Gryphon? NOTE: I meant to say "the Soviets detect the B-47 bombers en route to Cuba, then launch before the bombers arrive, followed by the nuclear exchange that destroys modern civilisation as 1962 knows it."

@FutureHistorian Let this be a teaching moment about peer pressure. Learning to say no to people and holding your ground will serve you well throughout your personal and professional life.

Future Historian

Fair enough.

I probably should have never asked that question.

Back to the Cuban Missile War, though.

Future Historian

6:27 PM

O_O

Well, that is it. I am dead.

plays dead

Future Historian

6:46 PM

O_O

@Gryphon? Mind if we continue the research part?

At least before we begin?

4 hours later…

Future Historian

10:30 PM

Test.

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