The Frying Pan

4:00 PM

@rumtscho So are you talking about a wine that is actually drunk and produced now? Or some artificial brew designed to trick connoisseurs?

rumtscho

And the amount of tannines could be unusually small for a red wine, but still within the acceptable range, so they don't notice the switch

So what they do is to start paying attention to the things which normally define red wine, and talk about them

And not paying attention to the things which define white wine.

And so, their critique includes the points important for a red wine, and not the ones important for a white wine.

Don't forget, both red and white wines have the same taste components, but in different ratios. And these connoisseurs are trained to detect them. So they can easily detect the red wine taste components in a white wine, even if a beginner is overwhelmed to do so.

If this theory is correct, then wine tasting is not the sham the results of the study seem to suggest.

derobert

@Mien Next time, I think I'm not going for 72 hours. That was tender, to say the least. Tender, as if it'd been put through a food processor. And I'm going to pay more for a chuck roast instead of bottom road (better flavor). Seems like beef prices have gone up a fair bit in the last few months :-(

Cerberus

@rumtscho I don't think it is a sham. But I also don't think there are white wines and red wines that are so close together as you say (though I have no proof for this); the number and kind of substances is so diverse that there are bound to be clearly identifiable patterns that exclude one kind or the other.

rumtscho

@Cerberus I don't see why they should be so diverse.

I agree, there are some grape sorts from which the white and red variety taste entirely different.

Muskat Otonel is such an example.

Mien

@derobert Okay, good luck!

rumtscho

4:07 PM

There are white, black and red types of Muskat Otonel, and they are totally different. (I don't know how they are called in English. White is white, black is red, but what is red?)

Cerberus

I rather think that people subconsciously refuse to accept the possibility that this is white wine, because it looks red. Just as you would think what looks like a cat must be a cat, even if it barks and obeys your commands; the possibility that there could be something that looked like a cat but was a dog is just zero, so that is the first thing you exclude.

derobert

rumtscho

But I think that the difference in taste between two white grapes can be larger than the difference in taste between a white and a red grape.

derobert

Sorry for the crappy exposure (and questionable color balance). Cell-phone camera.

rumtscho

@Cerberus yes, sure they do this.

Mien

4:09 PM

@derobert what's that third thing?

Cerberus

@rumtscho That is certainly possible; but, as a connoisseur, you're supposed to know the entire spectrum of possible tastes between grapes and regions and colours, even years sometimes.

derobert

@Mien the sweet potato?

Mien

Oh.

Yuck :p

Cerberus

@rumtscho So how did pinot noir and pinot blanc came to be?

Mien

I prefer 'normal' potatoes.

Cerberus

4:10 PM

@Mien Silence!

Mien

Your beans look delicious I must say!

Cerberus

Sweet potatoes are good too.

derobert

@Mien the beans were very tasty.

rumtscho

@Cerberus Don't know, I haven't eaten the Western varieties. Especially the Western wine varieties.

Mien

I'm getting hungry looking at it.

Cerberus

4:11 PM

@rumtscho How do you mean? There are eastern and western pinots?

I didn't know that was a distinction that mattered.

Though of course grape stems will difference between regions.

rumtscho

No, not eastern and western pinots.

derobert

The good news, is I still have plenty of beens left in the fridge. I wonder how sous vide green beens are.

rumtscho

I mean that I haven't eaten pinot, because this is a grape which is usually grown in Italy.

Cerberus

I don't remember ever knowing what kind it was when I ate grapes.

Are wine grapes even good as fresh food?

rumtscho

I have eaten Misket, Muskat Otonel, Gymza, Pamid, Keracuda, Dimyat and so on.

Cerberus

4:14 PM

eyes bulging

rumtscho

Wine grapes are less sweet than dessert grapes.

But if they are the kind of grapes your grandpa grows, you just eat them, because they are available.

I sometimes spit out the skins, if they are too tough.

Now, there are some western grapes grown in Bulgaria.

Traminer, Chardonnay, and so on.

But they are only available in more recently planted grape fields, I think.

Cerberus

I'm not a huge fan of grapes anyway.

I eat them when they're around, but...

Mien

I prefer white grapes.

Cerberus

Too sweet, perhaps.

derobert

@Cerberus Hmmm, we'll have to make you do some time in America. Then you'll never describe anything natural as too sweet again!

Cerberus

4:17 PM

@derobert Heh I have heard some rumours...

But processed foods are often too sweet here too.

Like spaghetti sauce, ugh.

tastefive

@Cerberus canned spaghetti sauce :-(

Cerberus

@tastefive Yeah canned or in a bottle/pot. Horrible stuff.

But I like things like sweet cake dough or cookies.

We have this candy called borstplaat...

It is basically 50/50 sugar and fat, with some cocoa.

Actually it could be more sugar.

I bet @Mien knows it too.

Borstplaat.

Mien

What about it?

Cerberus

I like it, sometimes.

Mien

Ah candy?

Cerberus

4:22 PM

Oh, I mean, what % sugar does it have, you reckon?

derobert

@tastefive Hey, there are at least a few edible canned spaghetti sauces.

Mien

I know the piece of armor, but I don't know the candy.

Cerberus

Really?

But Sinterklaas always brings borstplaat!

Mien

Yes. Does not ring a bell.

No.

tastefive

@derobert there are some I suppose that are popping up, but for the most part, my general rule is stay away.

Mien

4:23 PM

He brings toys and chocolate and marzipan and oranges and nicnacs and....

Cerberus

It is extremely sweet and fatty.

Mien

Hmm, I've found a bottle of Pálinka in our cellar. Do you think it would work for vanilla extract?

Cerberus

And you can easy push a hole in it, at least in some kinds.

Mien

@Cerberus I don't know it.

Cerberus

Freak!

I will tell Sinterklaas to bring you some this year.

rumtscho

4:25 PM

@mein if it is anything like the Palinka I know, it will have too strong a smell of its own

Like grappa

I wouldn't use it for making extracts.

derobert

@tastefive CI recently did a taste test, and apparently found some. I must try some. Well, or not, its almost time to plant basil again.

rumtscho

Of course, commercial palinka could be milder.

Cerberus

farm3.staticflickr.com/2401/1968095810_d30c7990f4_z.jpg?zz=1

Mien

@rumtscho It's pear-flavoured.

rumtscho

@Mien I doubt that it is "flavored"

Mien

4:26 PM

@Cerberus But I was a bad girl :(

rumtscho

It was more probably made by fermenting pears.

tastefive

@derobert Yep, we have our basil started

Mien

Well, you have them in all kinds of flavours, prunes, chili peppers etc.

derobert

@Mien Just don't let him know that?

Cerberus

@Mien Then I'll tell him to spank you first, then give you the borstplaat.

2

rumtscho

4:26 PM

But this still leaves the possibility for very strong taste, just as with alcohol made from any other fruit.

Mien

@derobert He's all-knowing.

@rumtscho Hmm, I was afraid so.

I'll taste it and see how it is.

rumtscho

Yes, try it.

I have had some extremely bland obstwasser

derobert

@Mien Well, you could always hope your bf is out of town that week, and see if there are other ways to get "Sinterklaas" to come.

rumtscho

Maybe this one is like them.

derobert

@derobert (Oh dear, that's a line @Jay should have said)

Mien

4:28 PM

We don't really celebrate Santa ;)

We have Sinterklaas.

Sobachatina

@Cerberus The funny part of that line is that "borstplaat" sounds much naughtier than the spanking.

derobert

@Mien there. problem solved

Cerberus

@Sobachatina Heh does it?

What associations does it conjure up?

If you speak Dutch, I can understand borst...

Sobachatina

I don't quite know but there is a definite "Splat" component in there.

Cerberus

Huh.

Borst = breast; plaat = plate.

Sobachatina

4:30 PM

:) I have no idea what the word means- only what it sounds like.

Cerberus

Funny.

rumtscho

@Cerberus Wikipedia lifted the veil of mistery

derobert

@Cerberus Now, that definitely is a weird way for adults to have fun.

rumtscho

This thing is just normal milk fudge

Tablet (confectionery)

Tablet (taiblet in Scots), butter tablet, butter fudge, cream tablet or Swiss Milk tablet (derived from a condensed milk brand name) is a medium-hard, sugary confection from Scotland. Tablet is usually made from sugar, condensed milk, and butter, boiled to a soft-ball stage and allowed to crystallize. It is often flavoured with vanilla, and sometimes has nut pieces in it. Tablet differs from fudge in that it has a brittle, grainy texture, where fudge is much softer. Well-made tablet is a medium-hard confection, not as soft as fudge, but not as hard as hard candy. Tablet is often flavou...

At least if the linking mechanism between languages works correct this time

Cerberus

@rumtscho Yay!

@derobert It is usually given to children by a saint...

derobert

4:34 PM

@Cerberus Well, the Catholic Church sure has had its share of scandals as of late.

rumtscho

@derobert We established that the Dutch are predominantly Protestant, I think

Cerberus

@rumtscho Hmm not sure whether we use dairy products in it. And it is typically chocolate-flavoured.

derobert

@rumtscho Hmmm, well, I couldn't make a joke with that.

Cerberus

But I guess it is similar.

rumtscho

Or rather, predominantly atheist. But the ones who made the traditions about Sinterklaas were probably not atheist.

Cerberus

4:35 PM

@derobert Heh fair enough.

@rumtscho Atheist, I don't know—irreligious, rather.

rumtscho

@Cerberus This is what Borstplaat links to. It could be that it is the wrong link and that borstplaat is actually made with butter and sugar, not milk powder and sugar.

Cerberus

They may believe in "something", but not adhere to a particular religion.

rumtscho

@Cerberus how do you define the difference?

Cerberus

@rumtscho It is probably just the closest thing: that's how interwikis often work.

rumtscho

Oh. So what is the difference between irreligious and agnostic?

Cerberus

4:38 PM

Well, irreligious is broader. It includes anyone who does not adhere to a specific way of thinking that is commonly called a religion. An agnostic is just someone who says he does not know whether there exists something supernatural. So there will be many people who are irreligious and agnostic, but also some who are only one but not the other.

rumtscho

@Cerberus Wikipedia talks about several types of milk-and-sugar candy and several other types of butter-and-sugar candy. I would be surprised if this one is the closest it gets.

Cerberus

Hmm. Let me find some borstplaat recipes.

rumtscho

But strangely, the NL wiki says "gemaakt uit water of melk, suiker en een smaakstof, zoals vanille of cacao"

What is "water of melk"? Whey?

It sounds strange to make candy with whey.

Also, it would mean that it has practically no fat then. Which is contrary to your experience.

derobert

Well, does it have cacao butter?

Mien

@rumtscho water or milk

Cerberus

4:41 PM

@rumtscho Water or milk.

So the diary products are optional.

rumtscho

@derobert I doubt it.

@cerberus it looks like the fat is optional too.

And it isn't really caramelized.

Cerberus

Most recipes call for sugar + something watery, which could be water, milk, or cream; and many (but by no means all) recipes use butter too.

@rumtscho True, and true.

rumtscho

So it is some kind of fondant, with added fat.

Cerberus

Perhaps we normally eat roomboterborstplaat here.

@rumtscho Yes, that's more like it.

Mien

Is there a difference between boter and roomboter?

Cerberus

4:43 PM

@Mien I think boter could be margarine too?

Mien

No.

Cerberus

I don't know, the only kind of boter I use is roomboter.

@Mien Cacaoboter?

Mien

Well, people say sometimes 'boter' when referring to margarine, but they know it's not real butter.

Cerberus

But any normal, typical boter should be roomboter.

Mien

@Cerberus Can you buy that? :p

Cerberus

4:44 PM

@Mien Heh no idea!

Mien

I was just asking because I buy 'roomboter' and you got me thinking it was something else from normal butter :p

Cerberus

Oh. As far as I know, roomboter is just normal boter.

I have never seen any boter that isn't roomboter or margarine.

rumtscho

I don't know if there is a process for makng butter other than using cream.

There could be one.

So it could be a dairy butter made without a cream stage, or something.

But I doubt it.

Who managed to answer the single dad question while I was closing it?!

Cerberus

In any case it would not be something you find in supermarkets.

rumtscho

At least she answered the powdered sugar question too.

derobert

4:49 PM

@rumtscho The master of one-sentence answers, it seems

rumtscho

@derobert Yes, I noticed that.

derobert

@rumtscho at least my prodding got a few more sentences out of him

rumtscho

And she isn't even that new, has 156 rep already.

derobert

Hmmm. I have a half-baked blog topic idea. An interesting thing to do—variation on recipe development, really—would be to take someones "ordinary" dish, and chef it up.

rumtscho

Interesting, this is good audience involvement

You can announce the topic first on meta, and wait for people to suggest dishes

And then pick one and chef it up, and show them how you did it

Maybe even do different variants

"Minimal variant: You add curly parsley and some sour cream in a ramekin"

"middle ground: make a Hollandaise to go with it"

derobert

4:56 PM

Yes, it could also be something a few blog authors could collaborate on.

rumtscho

"all-out: use homemade stock and fresh herbs. Add a mousseline sauce"

@derobert I don't know about collaborating, it is hard to do from a distance

Unless you combine it with the showdown

But it is a thing which can be done multiple times

Each time by a different author

derobert

@rumtscho Yeah, collaborate on the post. As in, two authors could each try to chef up the dish, then combine both final results into one post

... yeah, sort of like the showdown

but this wouldn't necessarily be competitive, more to show different directions you could take it

rumtscho

Yes, we can do the quick and the highbrow version by two authors

Assign who is doing which one, and both cook

Then present recipes, pictures of the results

But also describe the thought process which lead to the decisions made

derobert

Yes, the thought process (and failures along the way) is the interesting bit

rumtscho

"A well made sauce is rare in home kitchens. But I realized that a traditional heavy sauce like a remoulade would drown this tender fish filet. So I aimed for something light."

derobert

5:02 PM

Wow, I'd hate to be making remoulade at home, that has a lot of ingredients, no...?

rumtscho

Maybe I should have sent a mail to rebecca

She hasn't answered in the lounge, but I assume that she gets so many pings a day that she doesn't notice all of them

derobert

@rumtscho you have her email?

rumtscho

If she doesn't say anything in a day or two, I will write a mail.

@derobert yes, I do. She has sent some mails to us mods. But I assume that it follows the normal SE structure anyway.

Yes, it does. It is just firstname at the domain.

derobert

0

A: Question ideas for a hypothetical blog

That's no Ordinary Dish Ask blog readers to submit one a recipe for an "ordinary" dish that they feel could be better (e.g., here on meta). Pick one, and one or more blog authors attempt the "chef it up". The results—importantly, including the thought process and any failures along the way—get p...

rumtscho

Oh, there is a mod chat starting at 19:00 UTC

I wonder if I should go there.

derobert

5:05 PM

LOL, no idea what mod chats are about.

rumtscho

I wanted to go home and do other things, but Rebecca will be there for sure.

Mien

Dinner time, bbl. Spaghetti! <3

rumtscho

@derobert I have only been there once, it was about some changes being implemented.

I guess that the non-mods learn about this stuff later from the blog.

derobert

@rumtscho Yes, you must trap her. Gather up @Aaronut, et. al. as well, form a mob around her, don't let her escape :-P

@rumtscho Or, probably, first by reading meta.SO

rumtscho

@derobert I don#t know if it gets discussed there, I don't read it normally.

derobert

5:09 PM

@rumtscho following status-completed there is useful

rumtscho

@derobert good idea.

derobert

@rumtscho you can get an RSS feed for that

ElendilTheTall

@laura groovy. probably enter may seeing as I might be away by the time June is posted. I'll get a Paypal account sorted and wait with bated breath!

derobert

Wow, looking at that "I'm a dad, how do I cook" question, I notice it uses the needs-to-die preparation tag. Trying to remove it, but I can't actually tag it correctly, because there isn't actually a tag that fits it. Well, "cooking", but that's even worse than preparation. I guess I'll tag it please-remove-this-tag

rumtscho

I don't see why you should correctly tag bad questions

If you insist on weeding the bad tag out, leave the others in

They don't fit, but this is OK - we don't want tags which fit this kind of questions.

derobert

5:19 PM

@rumtscho well, I can remove preparation from that one without bumping it to the front page (because, of course, its already on the front page). But eventually, to kill that tag, all the questions must be retagged.

as long as I'm retagging, I might as well do it properly.

@rumtscho also, to help kill that tag, many of these can be deleted: cooking.stackexchange.com/search?q=[preparation]+closed%3A1

rumtscho

@derobert I'm not sure what our exact policy is, although I remember that we do delete old closed questions

But maybe not the ones closed as dupes.

derobert

23

Q: When should I vote to delete?

My question is simple - when should I cast delete votes? I've recently reached enough rep on one of the sites to be able to cast delete votes. I am not sure when a question is supposed to be deleted as opposed to just remain closed. What criteria should I use when deciding whether or not to cast...

cooking-time should die, too :-(

rumtscho

@derobert why?

Cooking time is one of the most important things you want to know

Or rather final temp, but nobody asks about that

derobert

5:34 PM

Its not something there can really be an expert in.

Well, any more than you're an expert in cooking

rumtscho

You can have a book listing cooking times (or rather final temperatures) for different things

It is important information, I think. And useful for searches.

derobert

Sure. Most cookbooks do.

rumtscho

Also, I still think that a tag shouldn't be based on people who have a knowledge or don't have it, but on the knowledge itself

derobert

Yes, its less clear it should die from that perspective. Though, considering where you'd find that knowledge—most likely, in a cook book along with the recipe—I'm not sure it provides any specificity.

rfusca

@rumtscho - btw, read #4 blogoverflow.com/getting-started

rumtscho

5:40 PM

They want one post a week?

derobert

Stack Exchange Community Blogs

For anyone wanting to help or participate with the Stack Excha...

1

... now that, is a useful bit of information

rfusca

@rumtscho yes

rumtscho

I wonder if this still holds, most of the current blogs aren't that regular.

derobert

Of course, the room is frozen. YEAH.

rfusca

@rumtscho really? I think the more popular ones are

rumtscho

5:42 PM

@rfusca Maybe I should check them. But look for example at the tex blog, it has some frequent announcements but not stuff people would like to read.

rfusca

@rumtscho just because it exists, doesn't mean its a good healthy blog to imitate

the photo blog isn't updated nearly often enough and they're not super happy about it

rumtscho

No, of course not.

But I mean that frequency doesn't equal quality.

In fact, I would rather have a two-week blog with deeper posts than a weekly blog consisting of fillers.

We don't have the amount of contributors which can produce the output which exists on the bigger sites

rfusca

@rumtscho I disagree, I'd rather have short lighter posts frequently with the semi-frequently more in depth post. It makes the blog look more active. Active blogs work. If they don't look active, then nobody comes and looks at your quality content

i'm not talking about just straight up filler, but every blog post doesn't have to be a treatise

rumtscho

If they have a schedule, people can come regularly. It is blogs which post infrequently and sporadically which don't get checked.

@rfusca if we can get good quality short posts, this is good too

But I don't think we should set the bar on frequency too high

Even with short posts, this will mean that the few contributors have to write more often

And many can't do that.

rfusca

then maybe there's just not enough contributors to make it sustainable

rumtscho

5:48 PM

I don't see why a blog post appearing once every two weeks is unsustainable

derobert

@rumtscho Wait, does anyone follow a blog, except by RSS?

I think we could pull off once-a-week with how many people we have. But we could certainly start with twice-a-month and see if we can build up a backlog of content to post, then switch to weekly

rumtscho

@derobert I do

For example, I used to follow Bad Science when it used to update every tuesday

rfusca

i just seriously have my doubts that all the people with actually contribute...call me jaded perhaps, but I just don't believe that all the peeps who say they'll blog, will

rumtscho

@rfusca yes, probably not.

But there are people who might contribute without having written their name. Like Sobachatina.

As an examples for good irregular blogs, look at Steve Yegge

There probably isn't a month when he made two posts

He is missing whole months

But once he writes something up, it gets read.

rfusca

thats cuz it takes a month to read one post :P

rumtscho

5:54 PM

Lol OK, this is a thing we shouldn't copy from him

derobert

Well, we could start with a posting frequency of (for example) every other Tuesday. Then see how much content we actually get, and if its enough, announce Cooking.SE Blog 2.0, now with posts every Tuesday.

rumtscho

@derobert Yes, but I wouldn't be too quick with that

I expect that in the beginning, more people will have an idea

And later, we can expect a lull in activity.

rfusca

anybody from the community team ever respond?

rumtscho

But the problem is that the official post says "at least once a week"

@rfusca no

rfusca

weirdo

rumtscho

5:58 PM

But I think I should ask by mail soon

derobert

There is the counter-argument that as you gain experience writing, it gets easier, so posts should become more frequent. At least if you're right that ideas are a dime a dozen.

rumtscho

I don#t know if the teacher lounge was the appropriate place to ask

rfusca

open a meta post as a 'feature request' probably

rumtscho

@derobert I don't think it gets easy after the first time

It gets easy after quite a few times

But you are motivated for the first time

The second, third, etc. times are still the same amount of work

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