The Frying Pan - 2012-02-25 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

@Aaronut ah, in that case, because I need to spend less time in chat, and more time gaining rep, so I can actually vote to close :-P

Well, nobody flagged it either. No matter.

@Aaronut it was asked an hour ago

i think we get caught up in the chat here sometimes and forget to check the quesitons

@Jay I like how we're all responding so defensively and embarrassed. :)

although i was persronally stuck in traffic because of horrendous rainfall

@rumtscho relevant meta thread

Just because an old crappy question was left open doesn't mean all new crappy questions should be left open.

12:02 AM

@Sobachatina wow, this question sounds so wrong

1

Q: How do I get Nooks and Crannies in my English muffins?

I have tried making English muffins a few times. Each time the flavor was good but I didn't end up with the open interior texture that I expect from storebought English muffins. I let them proof for the amount of time recommended by the recipe- about an hour. I cooked them on an electric skillet...

breadmaking english-cuisine

No offense to people who ask crappy questions.

@derobert It's a technical term!

@Aaronut OK, I guess you are right.

@Aaronut The problem with that is that old question won't get enough close votes, I think.

That's what the holes in English muffins are called.

12:02 AM

@rumtscho Of course I am right. ;)

Wait a second.

Both of you are mods

It has twice as many close votes as it needs, if either of you wants to

lol

@Aaronut as long as you are here, what do we do with Michael's answer flag?

oops replied to wrong message

@derobert What... I already closed it.

12:03 AM

THREE of you are mods...

@Aaronut ohhh look at you showing dominance over the new mod ;)

@Shog9 lol what?

@Aaronut no, the old one that was apparently still open

@derobert No, Shog is a community whatchamajigger.

@Aaronut I thought as a SO employee he got mod-powers, or better.

12:05 AM

does a question need an extra close vote per upvote? how does it work exactly

@derobert Oh, I see. Well I wouldn't reopen it, but I've learned to treat old questions differently from new ones. Copycats get no mercy but the original highly-upvoted questions should have some community support/agreement to close.

@Jay No, always 5 per question.

@Jay I believe deletion works like that, but not close.

@rumtscho really? somehow i got the impression highly upvoted question require more close votes. i dont know

Is there another way to get attention on a bad-old-question that should be closed other than putting it in the chat?

12:06 AM

@rumtscho I'd delete the answer. You want to do the honours?

Just because it's Michael doesn't make it an appropriate answer..

@Mien ideally, flagging it would work...

Alternatively, asking on meta will get it attention

@Jay This is not correct, but it does require more delete votes.

Well, I don't want to flag when I have close votes.

@Mien can you do both?

And I don't want to make a meta thread about each old bad question.

12:08 AM

@Mien You can't, anyway - they'll get converted (I think... unless they only did that on Stack Overflow).

@Mien in theory, 10k rep users should look at questions with close votes on them... at least, there is a tab in the tools page for that

@Aaronut Not necessary, I wondered why this flag stood longer, if it was more questionable than the others.

@derobert Ah cool :)

I just had a coworker inform me that the rub he put on his sous vide steak this morning had papain in it. :)

whats papain

12:08 AM

Flank steak pudding.

A proteinase in papayas.

Papain, also known as papaya proteinase I, is a cysteine protease () enzyme present in papaya (Carica papaya) and mountain papaya (Vasconcellea cundinamarcensis). Papain family Papain belongs to a family of related proteins with a wide variety of activities, including endopeptidases, aminopeptidases, dipeptidyl peptidases and enzymes with both exo- and endo-peptidase activity. Members of the papain family are widespread, found in baculovirus, eubacteria, yeast, and practically all protozoa, plants and mammals. Papain-like cysteine proteinases are essentially synthesised as inactive proen...

@rumtscho I can only speak for myself - sometimes I look at a flag and it's not obvious from the post itself, and I just don't have time to read the whole context to make a decision.

(and possibly, since I handle so many flags, other mods assume that if I left it alone then it must be contentious? I don't know)

@Jay With time and especially heat it will soften meat until it is mush.

@Aaronut Ah OK.

It is likely that he will have flank steak pudding when he gets home.

12:10 AM

@Sobachatina That doesn't sound tasty.

I am currently working through a list of shortened amazon links, mostly by Michael. So we could get more bumps with him.

Is that what he wanted?

No, not to me either.

But I think that most of his answers will be on topic.

Not at all. He didn't check the ingredients.

12:10 AM

@Aaronut They're afraid of you ;)

@Sobachatina It is not about being tasty, it is about tenderizing the meat.

@Jay They should be.

Pudding is indeed tender.

@rumtscho Can you give me an example? Did he obfuscate the links to preserve his referrer or something?

The papain dissolves the steak surface, much like an acidic brine.

@Mien Why is @Aaronut the only mod with the spank modtool?

12:12 AM

@rumtscho Yes- but for 10 hours at heat in sous vide it won't just tenderize the surface.

...yes.

2 days ago, by Shog9

@rumtscho: As the new mod on Cooking, I'm gonna hand you an issue that came in via email: a few dozen short links to Amazon that could use a structured cleanup.

At some point a while ago, the site was breaking Amazon links while trying to insert the SE referrer. Some shortened links may come from back then.

@rumtscho Interesting... and hobodave did it too! Bad, bad men.

"What can I do with accidental flank steak pudding? Any recipes that would work or commercial products that you have had success with?"

12:13 AM

I'm doing three a day. As you can see, most on the list is Michael.

@Aaronut I guess you know who to use the spank tool on now

@derobert True, I remember that. Generally link obfuscation is a fairly serious crime, especially if it's done with intent to profit.

But it's hard to guess at the intent because of that bug.

@Aaronut :) This is funny considering SE does it automatically for itself.

@Sobachatina That's the point... SE inserts its own referrer, people who obfuscate the links to escape that are gaming the system.

@Sobachatina its the crime of "interfering with Jeff and Joel's unicorn-dollar swimming pools"

12:15 AM

Didn't Jeff leave?

@aaronut why, when I open the question, I see the flag interface on the bottom, but it doesn't have a "delete answer" button, only a "no further action required" button?

@Sobachatina i saw that post

@Sobachatina I bet he still has plenty of ownership

@derobert Good point.

@rumtscho Because the bottom-anchored flag interface sucks.

I guess the designers assumed that since you were already on the relevant question, you could just scroll for it or something.

12:17 AM

OK, I used the flag queue interface.

Yeah, that's what I do.

questions for the mods: what do you think of people who continue to downvote a question that is already closed?

@Jay It's not town hall here ;)

You're really upset, aren't you?

@Jay lol

@Jay Speaking of that, I haven't voted on enough questions. At least according to the Stack Exchange Overlords. I should go find some closed questions...

12:21 AM

ask better questions then :P

@Jay It can make sense from the point of view that if it ever gets reopened, it keeps its downvotes.

It'

Honestly, I think that once the question gets deleted, it doesn't matter, because rep on deleted questions doesn't count (at least, once your rep is recalculated)

It's just my question that i asked was considered off-topic becasue of a meta post and not something you know from the FAQ\

I'm off to bed. Nn all.

Have a nice weekend :)

12:22 AM

That's the main reason why it rubbed me wrong

@Jay For controversial questions it's very important that people do that.

We don't get a lot of that here, though. More common on the tech sites.

@Aaronut what is "do that"?

visit meta?

@Aaronut I think that in his case, it wasn't a controversial question, more a question of a type the community dislikes in general.

@rumtscho In whose case? What are you talking about?

@Aaronut shes talking about me

and this is the question: gaming.stackexchange.com/q/51986/16007

12:25 AM

he asked an offtopic Q on gaming

@Jay No, it's important for people to downvote questions of the popular-but-inappropriate variety, even if they're closed. But apparently you were referring to a specific question.

when it was closed it had 1 downvote

within 1 hour, almost like a mob, it went down to 5 downvotes

but i think because of my comment, i got 2 pity upvotes

@Jay So you're even, don't complain. ;)

which actually puts me +5 rep

lol

no wait

wow my math is bad

...no, it's +0, AKA even.

12:26 AM

@Jay How many Hofgaarde did you have until now?

@rumtscho only my 2nd, leave me alone :(

is that Hoegaarden in German?

@Jay I'm not saying not to drink them, I am observing and correlating with your math skill.

@Jay No, it is what I misremembered the name to be like is.

And please disregard my grammar in the last sentence, I don't feel like finding out what is wrong with it.

@rumtscho o ok. you totally couldve lied and i wouldnt ahve known better lol

@rumtscho he thinks he's drinking bear, but he didn't notice that I added everclear.

Mmm, bear.

12:29 AM

man sam ley for 1110 rep in 16 days

That's a high-protein beverage.

@Aaronut is it really or is that a joke?

Feb 14 at 19:30, by Sobachatina

@derobert Real men drink bears.

because we had a discussion about legitimately drinking bear before

There's really nothing you don't talk about in here, other than cooking.

3

12:32 AM

This is probably imappropriate but it hasn't stopped me in the past but take a look at this exercise video lol

@Aaronut we talked about cooking earlier today!

o

its gone nvm

@Jay removed by the user

@derobert Well, now I am surprised.

@rfusca and probably more from questions than from answers?

12:33 AM

wrong timeframe :( sheepish look

@rumtscho hahaha

@Aaronut we talk about cooking once per day, just to make sure @Shog9 doesn't have us shut down.

@rumtscho ya, i've gotten oogles from questions

@derobert wait...what is this...'cooking' thing

crappola

@rfusca that's when we wonder about how to make a waffle recipe work. Because waffles are tasty.

12:35 AM

i just cut my finger trying to twist off the top of another bottle of hoegaarden

@Jay aren't you used to be dri....nevermind

@Jay go back to drinking bears, much safer than beer, apparently

The blood gives it a spicy note. Drink it.

/me adds a few ounces of everclear, that oughtta give it a kick

@derobert Really, don't do such bad things to beer.

If it is not strong enough, distill it. You get whiskey then.

12:38 AM

@rumtscho well, it'd take too long to distill it. I think we're trying to get @Jay drunk as quick as possible, otherwise how will we clear the rest of the cooking quotes off the star list?

@rumtscho also, its ok to do terrible things to it, I'm not drinking it :-P

time to play LoL

@derobert I don't see cooking quotes on the list, I see lots of quotes about us not talking about cooking.

drunk!

yay

2 hours ago, by ElendilTheTall

dammit, too many bagels, not enough pans

... there, got the right one that time

that is way to close to cooking

@Jay please thank not-so-distant relatives, the yeast

@derobert It seems like all we can talk about this week.

12:40 AM

@Sobachatina Oooh, we should start asking questions about quickbreads. That'll throw them.

i gotta wait till Sob leaves - he's not here on the weekend, so I can safely flood the system with bread questions without fear of him. He'll only have monday to catch up

muwahahahaha

@rfusca :)

Very true.

@Jay Just remember, the yeast died for your sins.
… Well, so you could have sins.
… and then forget them afterwards.

@Sobachatina shouldn't you be homebound?

Yes...

My bike broke so I had to drive.

I hate driving.

12:43 AM

@rfusca supposedly, my new dough hook has been delivered...

I must go fetch it, then try another 250g dough with it.

@derobert good luck, let me know

@Sobachatina ...are you driving now?

Ummm. Yes. My bike broke and I don't want to have to walk from the train station.

Ok- you convinced me to go now.

@Sobachatina you're driving while chatting? O.O

Oh- I misunderstood.

Obviously.

@rfusca- Enjoy having the bread to yourself until Monday morning.

ya, i was really confused

@Sobachatina lol

12:47 AM

Bye.

have a good weekend

@rfusca I'm going to have to find at least some more bread questions to post. Or maybe just answer all yours to get rep :-P

@derobert there ya go

@rfusca I need to try your approach of asking questions I only once had, except I'd have to find a book I want, and I already have several sitting around waiting for time to read them.

Anyway, good night. Gotta go fetch my dough hook (had it delivered to my parents' because I thought it was going to come while I was out of town, but of course it didn't)

@derobert lol

@derobert ciao!

12:54 AM

I'll probably be back later. Once I get some dough kneading.

cool

have fun :)

1:45 AM

Help!

I'm making tiramisu for the first time

Expected the mascarpone mixture to be stiff-ish (like whipped cream)

It is lkiquid.

Is this normal?

Should I cheat?

1:57 AM

@rumtscho the mascarpone is liquid?

@rumtscho its not normal

@rfusca More like soft peaks

It doesn't flow immedieately

But it isn't as dense/hard as I have had in tiramisu normally.

The zabaglione was more liquid than stiff

crap, brb

And the mascarpone dissolved in it, resulting in a still-liquid foam

I folded in the cream, it got to be like eggwhites at stiff peaks.

Now I wonder if I should put gelatine in it.

I used epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Tiramisu-351138

But maybe my yolks were small, the eggs were size M

1/3 cup of Marsala should be 80 ml, right? I hope I didn't use too much.

Or maybe I should use non-soaked ladyfingers, so they soak humidity from the cream.

2:16 AM

sorry, i had to put the kiddo to bed

@rfusca np

@rumtscho @tastefive is probably your best bet for a 'what went wrong' aspect, i've not done tiramisu in a long, long time

@rfusca I'm more interested in your prognosis

@rumtscho so where are you at now?

If it is too soft now, can I expect it to harden in the fridge?

Still as described.

2:19 AM

with a very liquid zabaglione?

@rfusca Now I mixed mascarpone and cream into the zabaglione, it is like soft-peaks eggwhites

very aerated, like whipped cream.

that sounds right to me

The tiramisu I've had was denser.

that mixture for tiramisu should be light

And its cream held its shape.

It was more like cream cheese in consistency, this thing is more like whipped cream.

@rfusca so my previous tiramisu has been wrong?

I mean the one I've eaten, I haven't made it before.

2:23 AM

@rumtscho just different, but i definitely wouldn't would expect cream cheese for tiramisu

@rfusca OK.

I asked it on the front page too, but I will go on as it is.

Even if it falls apart, it will still be tasty.

@rumtscho yup

2:51 AM

@rumtscho the two times ive made tiramisu, the flavour was awesome but it never really set for me

it stayed the same creme texture

@jay were your eggs still warm when you mixed them with the mascarpone?

@rumtscho hmmm

what i made was very similar to a custard base at first with the egg and sugar

Mine were, so I hope they melted the mascarpone, and if so, it should harden in the fridge.

then i believe it immediately added the marcapone

then the whipped cream

@Jay custard base? With milk/cream? No foaming?

2:54 AM

but it never really hardened

I made zabaglione with the wine.

egg yolk and sugar

i didnt add any alcohol to mine

I should have thought of using more yolks or less liquid, usually the difference of M instead of L eggs isn't too much, but foams are tricky.

did you use the egg white too?

why did it foam?

The recipe says to foam the yolks with the wine.

2:59 AM

o

My foam was very runny.

hmmm my egg/sugar mixture was relatively thick

and i just remembered. i did let the egg/sugar cool down in a ice wter bath first

Oooh! Time to ask a bread question! @rfusca What do you do with a vendor who sends you the wrong dough hook?

@derobert spank him and tell him to go to your room

@Jay wait, tell him to go to his room, or my room?

3:01 AM

@derobert your room... but if you rather not, send him to my room

@rumtscho i think "harden" is a bad choice of word

@Jay well, before you have your way with him, can I make him knead my dough for 15 minutes? I hope that won't wear him out too much before your turn.

You should say does tiramisu set in the fridge

or something similar

firm up?

tiramisu never actually turns hard... so i think harden is not a good choice

@rumtscho normally, I think the word you're looking for is 'set' though I'm not sure which recipe this is, having stepped in mid-conversation.

@Jay I don't distinguish much between firm and hard I guess. As long as it is not soft.

@derobert tiramisu, see my front page q

@rumtscho its possibly a language translation thing

3:06 AM

@derobert oh snap, what did you get?

@rfusca they sent me a coated C-hook

@rfusca instead of the spiral one I ordered

McGee says zabaglione is made with anywhere from the same volume wine as the yolks to four times the volume of the eggs.

He says a yolk is 15 ml. I used 80 ml wine.

Sounds like I would have needed another yolk or two.

didn't you say you had 4 eggs?

ah no, wait.

up to 4 times the volume.

So they should be able to thicken up to 240 ml wine.

If my yolks were 15 ml each, I'm not sure about my M-size.

"The key to a maximally light zabaglione is to stop the beating just when the foam teeters on th ecusp between liquid and solid"

But mine never reached that stage

but you have a light zabaglione I thought

3:11 AM

Yes, but the sentence confirms that zabaglione can become firm

Mine didn't

@rumtscho where did you get 55°C from? I don't see it in the recipe...

@derobert Normal temp for yolk foam

Yolks start foaming at 50°C

And the first yolk proteins denature at 63°C

Haven't worked with egg-yolk foams, do you get any thickening power below that denaturing? Custard certainly thickens above that.

Yes, custard thickens from the denaturing itself

It needs more than 63 because 1) the mixture changes the temp needed and 2) there are multiple types of proteins which can harden, you want all but the last ones to harden in custard

(If the last ones harden, the custard becomes grainy)

A yolk foam is an emulsion of the yolk's fat with liquid and air

books.google.com/… ... gives a higher temperature of 72°C for an egg yolk foam

but once again, never dealt with them. It also mentions you can go higher with some acids in the mix

3:17 AM

Its proteins have to relax for the hardening, but don't have to form cross-links

Wine is acidic.

McGee gives 50°C.

But 50°C is the starting temp, and your book speaks of an optimal one.

I should try a higher temp next time.

Well, I don't have said book, just Googled it up :-)

Sadly, I don't have enough wine to try it now.

Aha! But now I can answer your question, even though I don't actually know anything.

but I didn't ask how to prevent it

and also, I think 50°+ should have worked too

/me is curious what McGee says... I have a copy of that.

3:27 AM

page 115

But I thnk I have a UK edition

ok, its listed as 100–115 in mine, so yeah, lemme try that page

looks like Yolk Foams: Zabaglione and Sabayons starts on pp. 113

@rumtscho OK, found that paragraph, under Zabaglione Technique, which is indeed pp. 115. The technique he's describing is to put it over simmering water, and whip. So, same thing as in the recipe...

@rumtscho "When the temperature reaches 120°F/50°C, high enough to unfold some of the yolk proteins, the mix thickens, traps air more efficiently, and begins to expand. As the proteins continue to unfold and then bond to each other, the foam rises into fluffy mounds. The key to maximally light zabaglione is to stop the heating just when the foam teeters on the cusp between liquid and solid."

Yes, giving 50°C as the minimal usable temp.

@rumtscho so, McGee isn't saying to hold it at 50°C, he's just saying it won't really start foaming until 50°C—you don't stop heating until it "teeters on the cusp between liquid and solid". He doesn't give a temperature for that.

I went for 55 or a bit above, but didn't reach 60.

I think that you stop beating when that happens, not heating

Once you have a temp in the usable interval, it is a matter of aeration

I have made mayo at less than 70°, functions by the same principle.

I think 70 can even cook it.

@rumtscho: My copy definitely says heating, not beating

and he definitely means heating, the next sentence goes on:

3:40 AM

@derobert OK, overlooked the word.

"Further cooking will produce a stiffer, denser, eventually tough sponge as the proteins over-coagulate"

Yes, the dense sponge part is unpleasant.

Have had it with a hollandaise.

Well, at least we have an idea of what went wrong.

Now the trick is how to fix it.

So you think it wasn't enough heat? I will try it next time.

I already layered the tiramisu.

I hope the mascarpone will firm in the fridge, else I will have to eat it in a falling-apart state.

Gelatine could have worked, but it has the bad habit of trapping aroma.

well, it should still taste good. As long as you're fine with unpasturized eggs.

3:43 AM

yes, I eat them occasionally.

(well, OK, it should taste good, as long as you like coffee. Which I don't. So you don't have to worry about me swiping your tiramisu)

The risk per egg is really low, I figure I can take it personally. FDA rules take into account the risk multiplied with millions of eggs eaten per day.

Yes, its pretty low, I make mayo with raw eggs, though that's not an everyday thing

you don't like coffee?

nope, can't stand the taste of coffee

3:46 AM

I don't drink coffee, because I don't want to build a coffeine tolerance.

But I love the aroma.

oh, it smells great, I just can't stand the bitter flavor

And the taste can be good, if the coffee is brewed well.

Ah, the bitterness.

I love bitter.

I drink pure vermuth tea for the taste.

Wormwood tea, I mean.

Unsweetened.

Coffee doesn't rate anywhere near it.

Never tried wormword or vermouth tea...

But for the tiramisu, you have a few drops of coffee per sugary ladyfinger. It doesn't taste bitter.

@derobert most people haven't. Not easy to find, and it is extremely bitter.

I donno. For some reason, even the smallest amount of coffee in something, and I don't want to eat it.

Tea (i.e., Camellia sinensis), and a lot of herbal tisanes, I'll drink those. But not coffee.

3:55 AM

@derobert do you dislike other bitter stuff too? Or only coffee?

I think its only coffee. E.g., chocolate is fine. Same with various bitter greens.

@rumtscho y are you still awake... my goodness

@Jay do robots need sleep?

@derobert they need to recharge their batteries

@rumtscho Do you have a charger next to your computer? I'd certainly put one there if I were a robot.

@rumtscho and I answered your question on the site.

@Jay so, what can we do, to get this channel back off-topic?

5:07 AM

@Sobachatina Did I ever mention my experience with cooking a spiral-cut ham with raw pineapple slices in between the layers? Roughly the same results...

5:25 AM

@Shog9 mmmm, tasty ham and pineapple pudding?

3 hours later…

8:06 AM

@rumtscho I'm disappointed in you! Why would you make tiramisu with whipped cream?

And a second question, is there in fact a large difference between using whipped egg whites vs whipped cream when making tiramisu?

And I've never heaten the yolks in my tiramisu :)

8:19 AM

@Mien It is in the recipe, what else should I have done?

@Mien I suppose there is a taste difference.

@Mien If you want to foam them with the wine, there is no way around heating them.

I mostly just throw in some amaretto in the yolk-mascarpone mixture.

But did yours set alright?

Haven't been to the fridge yet

9:01 AM

@rfusca sourdough pancakes - nice!

think I'd add perhaps a little lemon zest next time

or make a fruit compote, blueberry or raspberry perhaps

3 hours later…

11:54 AM

user image

Bagels turned out well, haven't tried one yet though

4 hours later…

3:36 PM

@ElendilTheTall Jeepers! That looks very tasty.

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The Frying Pan

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