@RoryAlsop Yeah, that sounds pretty un-fun for me. I'm all for tearing down and building up portals, but figuring out the passphrases just seems... onerous.
I set up etckeeper and added the file /etc/etckeeper/commit.d/60github-push in order to push the commit to github.
[orschiro@thinkpad etc]$ sudo cat /etc/etckeeper/commit.d/60github-push
#!/bin/sh
set -e
if [ "$VCS" = git ] && [ -d .git ]; then
cd /etc/
git push origin master...
Still havent seen that expert pop up myself, not impressed with it as an april fool concept though, as it is yet another joke that desensitises users. If I had had it pop up I would have tried to hunt down its cause or possibly just ctrl-f4'ed it.
@LucasKauffman i thought for a moment that it was some kind of nagware/advertisement. being on stackexchange it crossed my mind that I had an infection of some kind. then i thought naahhhhh im using iceweasel on debian - which malware authors target that
While this answers the question in a pure literal form, it takes 2 paragraphs of things we (and most likely, the submitter as well) already know before getting to the real answer. I don't know about other users but to me the tone was condescending. Especially the "absolutely", as if it was logical at all to limit passwords in common scenarios. — gparent11 hours ago
@lynks Isn't that just firefox without the branding?
Anyway, I'm going to disappear for a while. Bad experience with a repevator. Someone should really prevent 101 rep users from having a comment privilege.
The fact that you need to ask this question is the answer itself - you do not know what is wrong with stacking these primitives, and therefore cannot possibly know what benefits or weaknesses there are.
Let's do some analysis on each of the examples you gave:
md5(md5(salt) + bcrypt(password))
...
Dave's false maxim: "If I add more stuff, it will be more secure."
@AntonyVennard Ouch! I just read all of it (again, after the edit) and I have no clue why the comments you're receiving. If it's to any consolation, you're not the only one being stalked by such members (I'll resist using pejoratives here, but feel free to include any that apply), and I guess there's only gonna be more of these as the site gains traction in the wider IT communities. @ThomasPornin gave IMHO the best advice to just ignore them. Your answer and the latter comments seem just fine.
@Polynomial Oh noes, not another Dave! On 1st of April no less :)
And a member since today with a gravatar that copies after @Luc's ... could it be an April Fools type question?
Just an idea I had, and I am sure there is a lot of material about this subject, so I am looking for a pointer as to where I can find more information.
My idea is this...
When storing a password in a database, it is common to store it as a hash. This is weak against rainbow tables, which is mit...
@TerryChia not to mention that if he hopefully decides on using bcrypt he just made a maximum password length 3 characters less long, and introduced a pepper into his KDF where salt should be.
Bad kitchen crypto, we need Gordon Ramsey to help us swear at them!
@TildalWave Hmm actually. The more I think about it, it appears that that 3 letter thing he is proposing IS a salt, it's just that he doesn't store it together with the hash.
@TerryChia Oh I didn't see his use of "random" 3 character salt. OK, he needs to be reminded that random isn't unique then. Random 3 characters won't be really effective salt and he's done the maths himself on how frequently they start repeating on average.
@TerryChia Meh, had to delete my comment, it was actually lame. Randomly entropic my ass LOL. The entropy stays the same no matter how fast the function may exit by chance. It's not what I wanted to point out with my comment anyway. The problem with his approach is that it's randomly costly to brute force.
@RoryAlsop Just a nuisance as @TildalWave says. The first commenter is disagreeing with me vehemently by holding the same position I and my answer hold and the second thinks "absolutely" really means "fuck you".
I guess it's a step better than WARNING: THIS ANSWER IS TOTALLY WRONG comments I used to get.
@AntonyVennard Your mistake might be that you are trying to convince your (dis)honourable contradictors. This makes them think that they are worthy of your attention.
By the way, thanks for the details on smart cards.
@ThomasPornin No problemo. I sent it in French, hope you don't mind but I thought I was more in need of French practise than you are in English.
@ThomasPornin Yeah, well, I was trying hard not to be condescending and aloof and all those things! Next time I'll call them absolutely, that'll teach them.
@ThomasPornin Okay, now modifying to "I speak French. Thomas says so".
3
It's much easier to write than to speak though, mostly because I can take a break and look up the words. I had no idea how to say smartcard in french prior to that email, for example. Now I do.
Anyway, hopefully the Feitian cards will come this week and I can play with them.
@TildalWave some people may have had some upvotes on their good answers that I hadn't previously seen :-) But it's always good to keep these things fair.
hmmm I'm getting really close to being on the 1st page for this year. I would've thought there's more active members here with generally good answers, honestly. I'm not too bothered about this rep thingy, don't get me wrong. It's just the site seems a lot bigger
@TerryChia Oh the bears, yeah how could I not notice. But I wouldn't say that others don't give great answers too. I'm just surprised that this number is rather low. I probably was reading a lot of old answers, being fairly new here and all. Maybe that's where my impressions come from
Often we use field visits for information gathering and/or equipment seizing. So a lot of the papers and cheatsheats will be left back in the lab. We also have an old laptop set up that is kept on the shelf, but used entirely for field work. It is, however, not normally kept in the jump bag.
...
@ScottPack - Will you be reviewing your jump bag contents any time soon? :P
Do we need a meta post? "What should be included an answer to the 'What should be included in a jump bag?' post, and how often should that answer be reviewed?"
The real reason to have a user type their password twice is to avoid mis-typing it in. It is very easy, when typing a new password, to get a capital letter incorrect, or accidentally type the letter next to the one you think you are typing.
If this happened the user would not be able to access t...
@ScottPack Yes, but the answer also lists the contents of your bag. Presuming you've updated your bag twice since, it stands to reason you should update your answer as well.
Actually, even i do not understand that why this is bad. As i saw few of other answers they say that if someone breaks into your database then they can easily break the hashes but what i think is that even if we use random salt each time then we have to store them with our hashed password for com...
This seems more of a question to me, than a real answer. OK, maybe not good enough for a new question, but shouldn't this rather be in the comments than an answer on its own?
@Luc Oh so that's what it is, and I thought you're a GO player :)
@RoryAlsop so small thy're barely any bigger than the close thumb LOL. I'm so glad they put the script on window close when you're adding something now, tho I'm not sure it's still implemented on comments and I have closed a few by mistake before posting... Oh, and browser crashes... answering a question and having tons of pages open as references sometimes isn't the best way to do it LOL
That "drag a tab into new window" is something I should learn to use more often
Right guys, I probably am going to be spanked for this, but hear me out. I need to store passwords (hashed) the problem is my program needs to be pure python. Bcrypt and Scrypt are known not to work in pure python. I can either use pbkdf2 with sha1 or write my own implementation of pbkdf2 with sha3.
@JeffFerland I don't quite fully grok terminology for people in the upper levels of management. Does "executive" specifically mean "C-level" or "VP", or does it just encompass the whole category of "People whose asses you need to kiss."?
@TerryChia needs to be portable to linux and windows systems, the problem is if you want to install python libraries that have native support you also need to have a c compiler installed
For instance if you want to run it on the appengine
you're going to have a bad time if you're not running pure python
Why was keccakc even selected as a SHA3 winner? Here are some performance charts: bench.cr.yp.to/results-sha3.html but I don't see any clear reason why this specific algo won?
@TildalWave Mostly because NIST reoriented its priorities
in 2008, NIST feared that SHA-2 would soon fall, and they wanted a replacement -- a fast one.
In 2012, NIST acknowledges that SHA-2 will probably remain unbroken for some time, so they wanted a backup plan.
Therefore they chose the function which was most different from SHA-2
Among the candidates, there were functions which used 32-bit or 64-bit additions, functions which used AES round elements, and Keccak, which used neither.
@ThomasPornin So it won because of cycles/byte on large inputs? That's the best reason I can see based on those charts, it clearly beats groest and jh variants
@TildalWave Most discussion on SHA-3 were about performance, because that's where there were actual things to say; but it appeared that NIST was not very much interested in performance after all.
This was made apparent when they chose the finalists. For instance, in the category "AES-based", they selected Grøstl, which was much slower than ECHO and SHAvite3
On the 2nd of October NIST decided that SHA-3 is the new standard hashing algorithm, does this mean we need to stop using SHA-2 as it is not secure?
What is this SHA-3 anyway?
@LucasKauffman I don't think the term applies. The Laws of Nature imply that I aggregate reputation and badges. There is nothing that I am socially expected to do against it.
@ThomasPornin Have you considered you might be stuck with "1m" for a really long time if Skeet thought of shortening display of such large rep numbers?
@TildalWave I'm sure The Bear can have that pesky rep-cap thing taken care of. On MSO: "Remove rep cap for users with 1M+ rep". SEI response: "Umm... no." The Bear: "RAAAWWRRR!!!" SEI response: "Okay, no problem!". The Bear hits 2M overnight.
@Iszi ROFL :) Of course, he could also just spend some of his rep on bounties and then award them to his own answers. Not sure how many bounties you can have at one time, though. But he could gather more than 200 rep per day so. Accepts are also immune to rep cap
did I get this right? I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the tweaking tricks (e.g. w.r.t. padding oracles) but it'd be nice to get confirmation: security.stackexchange.com/a/33576/5400
There has been a lot of talk about the daily reputation cap and what counts and what doesn't count and so on. But why is there a cap at all? I've seen lots of questions about whether the cap number should be changed, or whether certain things should or should not apply to the cap, but I've never ...
@Polynomial I think that's another possible reason for it. So people that don't only answer to gain rep don't look with envy at those that do? Or so members simply don't put all their efforts to gaining rep. @ThomasPornin would only need to be here for about 10 minutes per day if that's all he was after
I guess the main reason is to make people come back daily.
But I'd really prefer it if the rep cap was removed / increased for high-rep users.
since they're already likely to come back daily.
even if I didn't get rep I'd be here. I can't say it's not a factor in my efforts to produce the highest possible quality answers, but it's still nowhere near the most significant reason I contribute.
Your reputation should be based on what you do, not how often you are on the site; many people do not live on stackoverflow and may not be able to spend time exept on perhaps one day a week. I would rather see such people give quality answers once a week than be encouraged to rush through a few answers everyday. — HawkenMar 25 '12 at 14:57
This is to me the most agreeable comment in that discussion
@Polynomial Your MIC/MAC terminology is a bit weird (last I saw it was in WEP, not a shining reference altogether). Actually, the distinction between "integrity" and "authentication" is rather artificial.
@Polynomial There's a tricky definition point there. Integrity is that you get the "right data", but according to what notion of "right" ? How comes the data from the attacker is not "right" ? If you answer "because that's from the attacker, not from the right client" then you are doing authentication...
@Polynomial You mean if you weren't working, full stop? Because let me tell you that freelancing takes a lot more time from you than 8 hours per week day + commuting.
@TildalWave yeah, I'm aware of the freelancing slog.
ran my own web design / dev company for a year.
quit because people are dicks and treat you like an idiot
"Yeah, we cancelled the project, so we're not paying you." "Sorry, but you signed the contract and it says otherwise. See, right here, it says that you still have to pay." "But the project was cancelled. We have no funds allocated." "Tough luck."
then they drag their heels for a month
and either pay up over a long period of time, or you have to take them to SCC and hammer them there
@Polynomial That's with contracts. But we're being screwed with the Euro to the point we'll be like Cyprus soon. Many simply don't have the funds to pay up.
@TildalWave if they have the funds to pay their own employees and themselves, they have the funds to pay you. if they entered into a contract in bad faith, they fucked themselves over and you should have no qualms about bending them over in court.
at the end of the day, your costs are probably a fraction of the overheads for a single employee.
Next time someone tells me it's a good idea for a small country to adopt a currency that's controlled by another, I'm gonna buy a pineapple and show it up theirs where the sun don't shine.
in general you can assume that, whatever the employee is being paid per year, the company is probably shelling out double that in total for their employment.
taxes, pension, healthcare, at-work resources, etc. all add up
@Polynomial Yar that's true, but i'm supposed to maintain those costs just as well. I didn't go into freelancing to skip on basic insurance and stuff. And taxes,... with our system, I'm actually getting it up mine double as much as if I was permanently employed.
The links for the Windows 7 VHD files stopped working recently. Does anyone know of a mirror or email address to contact someone at NIST to find out when or if the page will be updated? thanks
@Polynomial yeah hasn't worked out too bad, one of our clients only pays us when the customer pays them, which can be slow, but to be fair to them they've only been really slow on one or two occiasions...
@RoryMcCune even just one browser on one platform. those people are usually the ones that plaster the page with animated gifs they found from Google Images.
@RoryMcCune haven't you heard of responsive design? it's the new thing... it killed any designs whatsoever... but it lowered cost of ownership... and then they still want it to look good, for the same money
@TildalWave yeah I've seen the bootstrap responsive template. It's useful for minimum viable product but I wouldn't see it as much good for a real production product..
@Polynomial wow that's quality from a web design house...
in some cases when I knew a client was gonna be a dick, I just bought a web template from a stock template site for like £15 and spent a couple hours tweaking it to look more like what they requested.
more often than not it would've left me in negative equity had I actually done the work for them properly.
That's what you get when designers pretend to be developers. And then these developers have no other choice but to pretend they're security experts just to excuse their worth. That's why we have so many CSS coders here thinking they can reinvent crypto.
This is epic: You are correct and I apologise. Your last project was actually both commercially viable and original. Unfortunately the part that was commercially viable was not original, and the part that was original was not commercially viable.
I set up etckeeper and added the file /etc/etckeeper/commit.d/60github-push in order to push the commit to github.
[orschiro@thinkpad etc]$ sudo cat /etc/etckeeper/commit.d/60github-push
#!/bin/sh
set -e
if [ "$VCS" = git ] && [ -d .git ]; then
cd /etc/
git push origin master...
The fact that you need to ask this question is the answer itself - you do not know what is wrong with stacking these primitives, and therefore cannot possibly know what benefits or weaknesses there are.
Let's do some analysis on each of the examples you gave:
md5(md5(salt) + bcrypt(password))
...
Just an idea I had, and I am sure there is a lot of material about this subject, so I am looking for a pointer as to where I can find more information.
My idea is this...
When storing a password in a database, it is common to store it as a hash. This is weak against rainbow tables, which is mit...
Often we use field visits for information gathering and/or equipment seizing. So a lot of the papers and cheatsheats will be left back in the lab. We also have an old laptop set up that is kept on the shelf, but used entirely for field work. It is, however, not normally kept in the jump bag.
...
On the 2nd of October NIST decided that SHA-3 is the new standard hashing algorithm, does this mean we need to stop using SHA-2 as it is not secure?
What is this SHA-3 anyway?
The links for the Windows 7 VHD files stopped working recently. Does anyone know of a mirror or email address to contact someone at NIST to find out when or if the page will be updated? thanks
