The DMZ

9:32 AM

Top o' the mornin' to ye!

11:13 AM

Good morning! @all

Morning :D

11:36 AM

> http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/89761/how-do-i-secure-apache-tomcat-against-the-logjam-vulnerability

meh, I actually don't know how to answer this. @ThomasPornin ?

I think everyone should just disable SSL. I mean what does it EVEN DO?!

@SteveDL It doesn't belong to us anyway.

@ThomasPornin You happy now?! You got a logjam of questions about LOGJAM

@Simon i think the question's interesting, why would DHE_* be unaffected if there's no way to set the key size?

Tinned_Tuna

@raz oh yea, "SSL/TLS won't cut it"

11:41 AM

@SteveDL Yes but the main question is how to configure something, which doesn't belong to us.

@Tinned_Tuna Might as well use Win95

@Simon fair enough

@SteveDL I'm kind of a dick when it comes to the on-topicness of a question.

@Simon Except when you're wrong

wat

11:54 AM

idk, it's morning

I need caffeine

haha

Arperum

12:18 PM

That Logjam question reulted in me having enough rep to downvote all the things. It's crazy.

Does it make you feel special?

Arperum

@Simon It more than doubled my rep, so it's not a bad feeling, although I still think the question was pretty basic.

12:58 PM

@Arperum it's not about basic, it's about usefullness

1:16 PM

@raz Or it's about usefulness, for those who know how to spell the word.

trololo

@raz I agree. Disabling all variants of SSL is highly advised. TLS, however, is more than welcome.

@Rhino But it can be tricked into using weak crypto!

@Rhino And can be exploited in a single bound!

PLAIN ALL THE TEXT!

@SteveDL The notation is confusing - ECDH (Elliptic Curve Diffie Hellman) is unaffected mostly because the cryptanalysis methods (index calculus) don't work: crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8301/…

On the other hand, DHE - diffie hellman (ephemeral) is vulnerable if it uses a small key size and you get to intercept the key exchange, because index calculus does work.

1:26 PM

@Rhino Math is hard

@Rhino Still is not trivial to perform

@raz I'm studying a maths degree. If you want the simplest explanation I can give, the structure of the groups are different - one is amenable to cryptanalysis, the other isn't.

@Rhino Haha, well I got that much

@Rhino What's 63 times 38?

@raz anything else derives into my explaining group theory and fields and oh man

234goeatadonut

1:28 PM

this is fun, I love it, but you probably don't want me to start.

@Rhino ugh fields annoy me

Me too, I hate nature.

@Rhino I piss off my math friends by saying, a field is just a range of numbers, why have all this crazy math

@raz That's pretty much true - it's just a set of numbers and two operations and a bunch of assumptions (axioms) that hold.

@Rhino haha

I'm an engineer, so Galois can go to hell

I'll just reverse engineer the app, and exploit the protocol. Easy peasy

1:32 PM

@raz But Galois theory is beautiful :(

Honestly that guy was a genius

I know, it just mostly goes over my head

@raz I've had to read it through several times to make it go in. Maths is not easy, but that's why I like it.

@Rhino thanks for the explanation. Is that then right what OP was saying? That simply switching to DHE cyphers wont cut it if the DH key size is too low, and hence the advice on weakdh.org is incomplete/wrong?

@SteveDL I think so, but the thing is you can't generate DHE parameters precisely because they're made up on the fly, so it really depends on whether the implementation can be persuaded to generate 512-bit groups. So, I think it actually would be fine as I'm imagining DHE implementations don't do that in general, but it'd definitely be worth checking with @ThomasPornin

But yes, I think you're right in what he's asking.

I don't know enough about the given implementations to really say whether this would be okay.

Q: Is it acceptable to bring a notebook and a calculator in a salary negotiation?

5

To properly evaluate offers and counteroffers that includes benefits and whatnot, I'll need the proper tools - a notebook and a calculator. HR : I'm sorry, but we can't do X. However, we have agreed to offer you X-2000, which we think is a fair enough compensation. Me : Please give me ...

donut alert

wee woo wee woo

1:48 PM

I'm not going to answer precisely because I think the answer is it depends on the implementation and I don't know enough about that.

That's fair enough

On the other hand, if regular DHE implementations decide to spew out 512-bit groups just for fun, then get registering a domain and make a logo.

and then we can find a new vuln name and become FAMOUS?

Can we call the vuln donut?

Ok I'm afraid we're out of luck being famous

I just scanned the tech report. In the 10% not saying NSA NSA NSA Nation States!!!!!! they are downgrading to DHE_EXPORT

DHE using strong groups is fine

obviously

So, it's not static they're attacking - although it would work for that - it's explicitly downgrading DHE to DHE_EXPORT.

So the guy is just a bit confused. I shall go and answer his question.

So was I, to be fair, and I'm half asleep.

E.g. a full bad cipher suite would look like this: SSL_DHE_RSA_EXPORT_WITH_DES40_CBC_SHA

@SteveDL also I stalked you on StalkedIn. Hope you don't mind :)

@Rhino Is he a pretty man?

Does he look like a donut?

1:58 PM

@Simon For reasons I don't get his profile pic is a donut.

Damn, too slow.

Haha.

I wouldn't know if he looks like your donut, however.

@Simon please update your DonutIn avatar with a picture of a delicious Doughnut

@Rhino And judging by what I've seen here in the past, it might be a bad idea to post a picture of her.

@RoryAlsop I shouuuuuld!

@Simon of course

2:00 PM

Or take a picture of me with a donut on my head.

I should add him. Endorse for donut.

10/10 would endorse again.

@Simon Probably a terrible idea. You've already survived calling her a donut... sort of.

@Rhino She likes it.

Man, most of the Suicide Girls are fugly.

@Rhino no worries.

not that it's a very informative page anyway

just kinda shameful that I run applied crypto labs... but most of what I do there is Python debugging

@Rhino are you A. V.?

2:07 PM

@SteveDL That's me.

Arnold Vuvuzela?

Adonut Verydonut, @Simon

Oh, makes sense.

🍔

🍩

The ttf-ancient-fonts package is a must.

2:31 PM

@raz Binary fields are used in GCM, and in some elliptic curves. Recent enough x86 CPU have an opcode (pcmulqdq) that optimizes computations in GF(2)[X].

@Simon apt-get install hieroglyph... not found. apt-get install caveman-drawings... not found. @RoryAlsop !! Why aren't you maintaining these fonts!

pls rory maintain

@Rhino Nobody uses static DH anyway.

Static DH was an old canard from the times when RSA was still patented, so the US government had to promote something else.

@ThomasPornin I'd hope not. I'm pretty certain you can still configure it if you try hard enough, though.

@Rhino It would require producing a certificate with a static DH public key, and finding client SSL implementations that won't choke on it.

This may prove challenging.

2:42 PM

@ThomasPornin True :) I've got static RSA to work once though.

I wanted to decode TLS with wireshark. There's two ways to do that - get Mozilla to dump its secrets or use rsa kex.

@Rhino Or you could create a fake server certificate and go full MitM.

Never go full MitM.

@ThomasPornin Yeah. I could have. In the end though, because I wanted to dissect http2, and the server wouldn't negotiate rsa kex (good server!) I just set SSLKEYLOGFILE for NSS. Wireshark will eat that format just fine.

Ok I have a mathsy question @Thomas - suppose I'm using RSA and I decide to use the same key for encryption and signing. Is there any cryptanalytic reason not do this? Or is it just a policy decision? With proper OAEP I can't think of a problem...

@Rhino It is unclear whether using the same key for encryption and for signing would induce a problem or not. This question has not been extensively explored.

@ThomasPornin Interesting. So using separate keys is just a risk reduction measure then?

2:54 PM

Note that when a SSL server supports both RSA key exchange and RSA-DHE key exchange, it does use the same key for both encryption and signatures (and in PKCS#1 v1.5 padding), and that has not resulted in an attack with a logo and Web site.

Not yet at least.

@Rhino In all generality you must separate encryption keys and signature keys because you MUST have a back of encryption keys, and you MUST NOT have a backup of signature keys.

So they cannot be the same key.

@ThomasPornin Ah yeah, I didn't think of that. Interesting.

A: Digital Certificate deployment: using two certs for each user?

31

In a sane organization, it is actually necessary to have two distinct keys, one for signing and one for encryption. When you receive some encrypted data (e.g. an encrypted email, as in S/MIME or PGP), you normally store the encrypted data (that's what happens by default for email). Therefore, if...

In the case of a SSL server, there is no need for a backup of the decryption key (since what is decrypted is the source of the session key, which is not stored), so that argument does not apply.

The other argument (a weird unforeseen interaction between decryption and signature algorithms) still applies, but "so far so good".

@ThomasPornin Yep, makes sense. I didn't think about key escrow at all.

@ThomasPornin I wondered about RSA particularly as it's a special case (trapdoor permutation rather than trapdoor function). The textbook case already has enough problems I guess.

Anyway, the real world calls. Enjoy your donuts.

Q: Why should one not use the same asymmetric key for encryption as they do for signing?

@Rhino Thank you, you too.

Iszi

3:09 PM

@ThomasPornin Don't I have a question that's duplicate of that?

48

In an answer to a question about RSA and PGP, PulpSpy noted this: It is possible to generate an RSA key pair using GPG (for both encryption and signing -- you should not use the same key for both). What is the reasoning behind this? Perhaps my understanding of public key encryption is fla...

cryptography encryption digital-signature

Oh for fucks sake, I spent about 15 minutes trying to debug my the cursor wouldn't change in a VB.NET application only to realize that it was because of my RDP client.

Good sentence Simon, good sentence.

@Iszi I am not entirely sure merging duplicates that both are more than 3 years old is really a smart thing to do.

@ThomasPornin Do you ever do anything special on the St-Jean-Baptiste day?

Iszi

@ThomasPornin I'm not entirely sure you should have a say in it. You never even bothered to answer my question in the first place, even though it came first by about 10 months.

3:25 PM

@Iszi You tell him, ex-one!

3:45 PM

@Simon I do not go to work, which is special enough for a non-week-end day.

@ThomasPornin That's it? You don't use it as an excuse to get drunk?

@Simon If I want to get drunk I get drunk. I don't need excuses.

@ThomasPornin Tsk tsk, typical adult who feels good about himself.

"Aux âmes bien nées,
la valeur n'attend point le nombre des années"

Who said that?

3:53 PM

Jean Racine

Jean Racine (French: [ʒɑ̃ ʁasin]), baptismal name Jean-Baptiste Racine (22 December 1639 – 21 April 1699), was a French dramatist, one of the three great playwrights of 17th-century France (along with Molière and Corneille), and an important literary figure in the Western tradition. Racine was primarily a tragedian, producing such "examples of neoclassical perfection" as Phèdre, Andromaque, and Athalie, although he did write one comedy, Les Plaideurs, and a muted tragedy, Esther, for the young. Racine's plays displayed his mastery of the dodecasyllabic alexandrine; he is renowned for elegance,...

Ah, of course.

It's from his play "Le Cid"

Dammit

Not Racine, Corneille.

Pierre Corneille

Pierre Corneille (French pronunciation: [pjɛʁ kɔʁnɛj]; 6 June 1606 – 1 October 1684) was a French tragedian, and one of the three great seventeenth-century French dramatists, along with Molière and Racine. As a young man, he earned the valuable patronage of Cardinal Richelieu, who was trying to promote classical tragedy along formal lines, but later quarrelled with him, especially over his best-known play Le Cid about a medieval Spanish warrior, which was denounced by the newly formed Académie française for breaching the unities. He continued to write well-received tragedies for nearly forty years...

Hum, I know Le Cid but the name Corneille doesn't ring a bell to me.

Is that like El Cid? ;-P

@RoryAlsop The 1961 movie with Charlton Heston ?

Same historical figure, but completely different story.

4:05 PM

that's the fella

4:18 PM

@raz This is inherently an information security question. The fact that it's a question about server configuration is irrelevant. This group is inherently cross-functional, and covers many disciplines. Please don't turn Information Security into a finger pointing exercise where we refer them to another forum, and they do the same thing. — Steve Sether 33 mins ago

Agree or disagree?

security.stackexchange.com/questions/89782/which-novel-is-best oh well

@Simon go back to PHP.

pls steve

storify.com/minesinafrica/…

Interestingly our boss trains us the exact same way. Finish project / graduate = restaurant outing. Squeak.

4:35 PM

@raz I cannot say I disagree with him. Though this is a "server configuration question" it still is very InfoSec in nature, and I doubt the OP would get a correct answer on serverfault.

@ThomasPornin I pointed the OP to Tomcat IRC and help section.

Not to serverfault.

I agree I don't think ServerFault would give a better answer. I think @Rhino gave a nice answer. Although it isn't quite Tomcat specific.

Sether has some very strong opinions about the style of community here

@schroeder That's fine. I'd rather discuss them in chat if he has an issue with something.

@raz agreed - or in Meta

@schroeder True, I don't visit Meta that often. I should probably do that.

4:40 PM

in my opinion, the question is on the fence - yes it is about a specific server's specific configuration, but the heart of the question is about the conceptual efficacy of the fix - so I would keep here

@schroeder That's fair

To fit InfoSec.SE, the title of the question would have to be changed.

@Rhino i dont think the other answerer on the Tomcat question has even read the question lol

@Simon "Does the recommended course of action for preventing Logcam on Tomcat servers really eliminate all risks of weak DH keys?"?

I'm currently editing it

@SteveDL Now you're talking.

@SteveDL Yeah i'm not sure which question he's answering lol

4:43 PM

@raz tried lazy generic copy/pasta for cypher configuration questions, and failed. + his answer is kinda link-only

@SteveDL Copy/pasta and cypher? Are you Lighty?

cipher?

bleh. English spelling is inconsistent </saidbyafrog>

hahaha

YOU'RE A FROG?

I've told you numerous times I'm not a donut.

wat

4:47 PM

He confusing donuts and frogs

fronuts. :| frogsty donuts

0

Q: Which novel is best

Which book that i have to read to become a ethical hacker

professional-education

hahahaha

I think @schroeder is confused

And rightfully so

trying to help ....

@Polynomial asked us to be nicer

Hey who'd have thought he was looking for fictional inspiration...

@Iszi just flagged his own question from 3 years ago as a duplicate...?

wat

4:52 PM

oh no nvm... wow that was random. He realized 4 years later that a duplicate occurred 6 months after his original question.

@raz maybe I should recommend Neuromancer

amazon.ca/Neuromancer-William-Gibson/dp/0441569595

that book inspired many

@schroeder ummm what about Digital Fortress?

And Harry Potter?

@raz Dan Brown? that dude really does have a hard on for ciphers, doesn't he?

"so mysterious!"

"how do they work?!?"

"must be magic!"

@Simon Harry Potter is unlike Digital Fortress. One of these books involves magic and accumulation of arcane jargon. The other involves magic and accumulation of arcane jargon too, but at least it is well written.

5:02 PM

@ThomasPornin As expected from someone who actually isn't a writer.

Can't deny that she created a complex story though.

@Simon I didn't know Dan Brown was female.

Oh you god damn donut.

One learns something new every day.

Ah ! Schneier jumped in the Logjam wagon, and, predictably, goes in full "NSA did it !" mode: schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/05/the_logjam_and_.html

Never go in full "NSA did it !" mode.

@Simon Dude you never go full NSA

5:10 PM

@raz Would you say that going 25% NSA is the absolute maximum?

@Simon Probably otherwise just get out your tin hats

Personally, I'm a big fan of tin foil hats. I usually wear one when I go out.

@Simon Foil donuts

om nom

Montréal is such a strange place to live. A boss can send you an e-mail in French and then send you one in English on the next day.

@Simon That's a great story, can you tell it again?

5:18 PM

I was gonna swear but then I stopped myself.

@Simon Sure .... THAT'S what makes Montreal a strange place to live ....

pls

CodesInChaos

5:42 PM

@AviD Is that really a duplicate? security.stackexchange.com/questions/89690/…

@CodesInChaos I didn't flag it because of the nuance of logging out AND closing the browser.

CodesInChaos

As I read it, it's asking about problems when you logout without closing the browser, whereas the supposed duplicate is about closing the browser without logging out.

There's a troll loose on the CFRG mailing list. It's been a bit of a train-wreck over there since yesterday afternoon.

CFRG?

@Simon The IRTF (Internet Research Task Force) Crypto Forum Research Group.

5:48 PM

Oh.

that's not a troll, that's a random seed

Google Chrome is very unhelpful in letting me join the chat. So I have to use IE. Worst day ever.

What does Chrome do?

I suspect it has something to do with the forced https add-on that I was recommended

No referer was present - this may be due to a browser setting

@Kisunminttu Yeah, for reasons I have yet to determine, some days SE and (particularly chat) and Chrome seem to hate each other.

5:54 PM

@Xander Only started doing that after the add-on. On the other hand, I've been lurking so long I wouldn't know if it's just Chrome and the chat being fiddly :D

@Kisunminttu Yes, that could well be due to it not playing nice with the add-on. HTTPS to HTTP requests won't set a referer.

I promised @AviD I'd keep an eye on the chat for him

@schroeder LOL. It's random all right.

@Kisunminttu Then tell him he closed a perfectly valid question as a duplicate.

@Simon I'm afraid I can't do that, sir

6:00 PM

Damn it, at least I tried.

Man, chili nuts are so good

@Kisunminttu You're eating nuts?

@Simon Yup

@Kisunminttu Last night I had the last 8oz of my cashews with some nutella. It was heaven while it lasted.

@Kisunminttu I think you can safely extend that to any food that contains significant quantities of chilies.

6:03 PM

@DavidFreitag Cashews and nutella? Whoa. That's like... Feta on edam. Or ham on pulled pork. :D

@Xander Ohhhh yyyyeeaaahhh

@Kisunminttu Or a beer stuffed into a chicken, stuffed into a turkey, stuffed into a roasted hog.

@Xander I always spice everything up. Even deez nuts. I put some chili powder in the bag and shook it up.

@Kisunminttu Would you say that you're a Spice Girl?

@Kisunminttu I bought raw cashews and roasted them myself, I think I'll have to try this next time...

@Simon Definitely.

You guys remember my attempt at growing herbs last year that turned out to be an epic fail?

6:07 PM

Dude, speaking of spice girls, I watched the last day of Ezekiel_III's charity stream last night. Him and ManVsGame sang "I'm a barbie girl" together, then put makeup on each other as the donations ticked past $50k ($27k in 8 hours)

I've had way better luck this year.

@Kisunminttu What did you grow?

@DavidFreitag I'd hit that donate button

@DavidFreitag I'd totally do that for charity.

@Kisunminttu That's fantastic! I think my family is cursed with a black thumb. No one in my family can grow much more than crab grass.

@Simon And CohhCarnage shaved his awesome beard for charity. I think a bunch of really popular streamers on twitch raised almost $500k so far...

6:09 PM

@Simon We have parsley, purple basil, so so so many little chilies, mint, sprouting cucumbers, and this: learn2grow.com/plantdatabase/plants/…

@DavidFreitag I'd do that too but I'd look like a kid.

And so many flowers coming up.

@Kisunminttu Are bugs feasting?

@Simon For reference, his beard was nearly 8" long.

@DavidFreitag God damn.

6:10 PM

twitch.tv/ezekiel_iii/v/5281801

Watch it ^

purple basil?

@DavidFreitag No son, work.

@Simon Nope, they're on the kitchen windowsill, flower pots are on the bedroom windowsill.

@Kisunminttu Oh, clever.

@CodesInChaos im happy to vote to re-open

More rep for me :-D

6:11 PM

They are super drunk, and super excited about how much money they raised. ManVsGame even cries, which subsequently makes his makeup run down his face.

@Simon It's too cold to keep them on the balcony. Bugs shouldn't be a problem even then since we have a glass balcony

@Simon Dude it's hysterical.

@DavidFreitag Wow.

@Simon They raised nearly $30k together in less than 7 hours

@DavidFreitag this made me awwww

6:12 PM

@Kisunminttu Well it's not every day I see something I've never eaten.

3

Chicks dig crying men.

@Kisunminttu Dude I know, after zeke and man started, I almost lost it

eeeek silly keyboard

@Simon It's for charity! St. Jude Bro!

@DavidFreitag I'm assume that you were the first one to star that? Well done.

6:13 PM

@Simon Uhhhno.

o

@SteveDL I fiddled with the purple basil yesterday and the smell of basil was surprisingly strong!

To whoever did it: well done, I had to re-read it to get the double-entendre, hehe.

Does it have the exact same flavour?

@SteveDL I don't know yet, it's just a baby still

6:14 PM

Also, it was Zeke's birthday yesterday, and since he hit $50k, he's gotta quit smoking. Cold Turkey.

relevant: blog.foodpairing.com/2015/03/…

Now I wanna grow it. It looks nice. Wish I had a garden..

@SteveDL Oooh, I like that!

This blog is brilliant

@SteveDL It's by far the hardest to grow, even the chili is easier

Out of the five little young basils that sprouted only one remains

I really love growing stuff. It's one of the reasons I'm so happy to get out of bed way too early in the morning, to check to see if they've grown and to water them :D

@Kisunminttu I'd be happy to get out of the bed if @Adi were in it too.

6:19 PM

My family is cursed with the black thumb

@Simon If I could have him here in my bed, I'd never get out.

@Kisunminttu Are you guys in a long-distance relationship?

@Simon He's in Amsterdam with @RоryMcCune and @AviD

@Simon Right now yes, unfortunately

@Kisunminttu That sucks.

@DavidFreitag SEE I WASN'T INSANE

6:21 PM

@Simon Thanks, I know :(

Has anyone here heard of the game Amnesia? You should play it if you're into scary games. It's pretty fucked up.

@DavidFreitag Pffft, Amnesia is nothing

Ok people I need a sanity check. Bottom of page 6, top of page 7 of this paper: meshekah.com/research/publications_files/…

Looks to me like the salt is computed S=HDF(p) xor decoy

@DavidFreitag Try Penumbra. I got a mini heart attack like 10 minutes into the game

then the stored hash is computed D=H(HDF(P) xor S || S)

if you stick S from one into the other I'm pretty sure that cancels out HDF(P)

6:28 PM

@Kisunminttu Well tbh, I was watching someone stream it, not actually playing it. It wasn't so much scary as it was just fucked up.

@CodesInChaos you're good at this stuff ^^

@DavidFreitag I can't watch streams or play scary games, I can't watch horror films or even read creepypasta anymore. My body reacts with a very strong, uncomfortable sensation.

@Kisunminttu The problem with me watching scary things is that my brain starts to think those things are real. I get to the point where I need to check every room when I get home to make sure there are no scary things ready to tear my face off. Thankfully this hasn't happened in a while, and Amnesia wasn't really that scary

@DavidFreitag Haha.

There was a series of videos on Youtube called crimson something, I can't remember the title right now (and google is failing me), that hit me really hard. I was terrified for weeks.

6:35 PM

@DavidFreitag This happens to me too, but it's mostly during the evenings and nights and mornings. Some mornings I wake up legit scared! The worst thing for me are mirrors. I can't even peek inside the bathroom without turning the light on.

@DavidFreitag I believe I know what you're talking about

@DavidFreitag can you tell me more about it?

@Kisunminttu It was about this group of kids and this creepy dude who followed them around showing up randomly

Very tall, very skinny, very freaky looking, and in a black suit.

@DavidFreitag "A Crimson Mark part-1 (gay short movie)"

:D

@DavidFreitag I'm assuming you don't enjoy anything with slenderman in it...

Crap this is seriously bugging me, now I need to remember the name...

Which is a huge mistake, because then I'll end up watching it again.

@DavidFreitag I know dat feel bro

Found it! (I was way off btw)

youtube.com/user/MarbleHornets

Be warned I was terrified for weeks.

6:48 PM

@DavidFreitag "Marble Hornets (abbreviated MH and sometimes stylized MarbleHornets) is a YouTube webseries and ARG inspired by the Slender Man online mythos." says wiki

@DavidFreitag HAHAHAHA no way in hell I'm watching that

@DavidFreitag You did hear Headhunterz's track about Skyrim, right?

@Simon Nope

REALLY?

Oh how I have failed you, I'm sorry.

@Simon AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA