@Caleb Yes, I believe the ministry of David Hogan to be credible. He doesn't claim to raise everyone he prays for from the dead; in fact when he saw his 1st one he was as shocked as everyone else(reminds me of John Wimber's 1st healing). A couple of things, 1) If you're looking for secular media to report/verify claims, look again. I could point out time after countless time secular media refused to report something-yet went to great detail to point out an indiscretion.

@Caleb (con't) 2) I am not looking to someone else to 'justify' or make credible my faith, I have personally witnessed many such things. My father(RIP) was a pre-Vatican II Catholic who got "Born Again" after being prayed for and receiving absolution from a couple of Jesuit priests from St. Louis, who had recently performed an "exorcism"-the subject of Peter Blatty's book,"The Exorcist". This happened in '61, when nobody in the Catholic Church (it seemed) had a 'clue' to what was going on.

@Caleb (con't) My father was "delivered" from sleep-walking, except his sleep-walking took him out in the middle of busy streets with nothing but his bvd's. He was 'discipled' by Billy Graham and others on the radio, as his local priests weren't sure what happened to him. He described "speaking in tongues" as his job was to deliver electrical material, and he found that 'speaking in this prayer language' helped him to be 'freer' and connect with God.

@Caleb (con't) I could go on and on, but the one story he told was when he was at a customer's house(he was an Electrical Contractor by then), who while my dad was working on something else, gashed himself severely. He held his hand, while my father got something to apply to the wound, then went out cold. The bleeding stopped, there was no pulse, and he emptied his bladder. My father got his wife to call an ambulance, then proceeded to pray for him "In Jesus Name".

@Caleb (Last-honest) It took about 20-25 minutes for the ambulance to arrive, but just before it arrived, the man got up, looked around and asked-"What happened?" He didn't want to go in the ambulance, but when his wife insisted, he went.

@All I have had numerous "escapes from certain death", have prayed with people who were "brain-dead', multiple organ failure, cancer, and many other maladies and have seen them healed. I have also witnessed close friends who lost their loved ones; my father also died when he was 69. I believe it is part of the "Normal Christian Life"(a term coined from Watchman Nee's book) and my faith is no different than your faith. You read the same bible I do, what does it say?

@All "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go to My Father."(Jn. 14:12) Jesus is our 2nd Adam, meaning "if He can do it, we can do it". A grain of a "mustard seed" of faith-without doubt, is all that is needed.

@All (I will get off my soap-box) In Africa they have that faith; in China, Indonesia, Philippines, they experience supernatural encounters w/God. Why not Europe & US? Jesus said, "To whom do YOUR children cast them(demons) out?"(Mt. 12:27) If your belief is in the 'power of man'-whether or not you 'pray', nothing will happen. Those 'other places' don't have an answer-except sorcery and pagan worship which makes them more sick. But somehow we have 'evolved' in the west-or have we?

@All (1 more comment...) I started my Christian walk being a serviceman(Navy) who was told by the Catholic Chaplin, "...you're too zealous for us, go join the Navigators". I did, and was very Baptist, Dispensational, and Cessationist(I told a girl who once tried to 'lay hands on' and pray for me-Do it and I'll break your arm!) But I took the Bible seriously(after memorizing all those verses in Navigators, how can't you)(con't)

@All and after seeing others who were "Charismatic/Pentecostal" winning souls for Christ, and myself not, I went after the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with my Bible, and nothing else. That's when I felt I was in the 'courtroom of the Lord', when it seemed He was saying, "What about James 1:17, I Cor. 12-14, Mark 16, John 14:12, and others. One night I asked a friend to pray for me for the "Baptism" and nothing happened-I prayed my way into a headache and went to bed.

@All (Last-really) The next day a friend had to speak at a Christian breakfast, where my Commanding Officer, the Admiral's representative, and many others came. He wasn't used to speaking in public, and started 'nose-diving-becoming inaudible' when I suddenly started blurting out something in tongues. He pulled his head up, and starting DELIVERING the MESSAGE! And that's when it 'clicked' for me, it's about being witnesses, and delivering the message. I then led a number of people to Christ.

@user2479 Do you have a link on hand that can be instructive on this issue?

@user2479 How you know that someone is saved? How do you recognize him? Some manifestation in particular?

@PaulVargas There are many, many. The one's I am more familiar with are older; "They Speak With Other Tongues" by John L. Sherrill an Episcopal priest is one. Interestingly, Jack Deere, a "former" Dallas School of Theology Professor has a book-I can't think of it off hand.

@PaulVargas I have asked numerous people and prayed with people to "accept Jesus into your heart as Savior and Lord" and have had a variety of manifestations. I personally had nothing when I prayed, until I went to sleep. I dreamt I was playing in the snow and rejoicing and throwing snow in the air, when I was on a tropical island for 2 1/2 years. So I was "saved in my sleep".

@PaulVargas The Best Answer is a changed Life! St. Francis once said, ":A sinner can pray, a sinner can fast, a sinner can give alms. But what a sinner cannot do is Obey!" I have seen people weep profusely, be "Slain in the Spirit AND Speak in Tongues" after praying the sinner's prayer; and I don't discount these experiences. But when they "Hear and Obey" the voice of the Lord, I know 'regeneration' has occurred.

@user2479 Can I ask you something? Tell me ... in your own words what is the Gospel? How would you define it?

@PaulVargas Charles Finney described his "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in his book "Revivals of Religion"-something that helped influence my decision.

@PaulVargas The Truths that we ALL have sinned, and are deserving of Eternal Death, that "good works" are insufficient to merit Salvation, that God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to take our punishment for sin, and that by accepting by faith His Son as our Savior and Lord, we become "born again-spiritually regenerated", our sins are forgiven and the Holy Spirit bears witness that we are His.

@PaulVargas That's it in a nutshell-I could elaborate on "confess with your mouth and believe with your heart" but I would have to type "con't" to get it all in.

@user2479 Do you make the unbeliever repeat the sinner's prayer?

@PaulVargas An "unbeliever" doesn't get anything(without faith it is impossible to please God..)(Heb. 11:6) Many-I would say "most" people have 'faith' to be saved; it's those '1 or 2 things' that get in the way of them being saved. If those issues are not addressed, chances are their prayer is not "from the heart" and nothing will happen. That's what happened to me, initially. I don't make a person "pray a sinner's prayer" if they are not ready. I ask them 1st, (con't)

@PaulVargas "Are you ready to ask forgiveness from every sin you can think of, and willing to forsake a sinful life?" If they have to think about it for a minute-the answer is no. God has prepared the hearts of the one's that say "Yes"; then I ask them to repeat the sinner's prayer. It's important that they "say it from the heart" and not just "parrot" your words. Some people don't even get that far-they start weeping and then it's on.

@user2479 Oh! I see. That is, faith and repentance. Humm ... you did not mention repentance.

@PaulVargas Repentance is implied by "we have all sinned and are deserving of death". A person who acknowledges they are a sinner, but doesn't repent truly hasn't acknowledged "the wages of sin is death". The are living out a fantasy that 'it will all be ok in the end". I DO believe that it takes a 'revelation' from God for a person to acknowledge their sin, because ultimately, it's against Him that they have sinned.

@user2479 How would you define repentance?

> He said, "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the gospel!" (Mark 1:15 NET)

@PaulVargas I don't like the word "metanoia" because it implies 'mere thinking'(change of mind) can facilitate repentance. The Hebrew words "shav" and "nacham"(approx. spelling) imply turning away from sin, and turning towards God in heartfelt sorrow (Godly sorrow) The thief on the cross had "shav and nacham" although his physical state prevented him demonstrating it.

@user2479 And you were there to see it right? You know he was shocked because you saw it on his face when it happened. Or did you just hear him say he was shocked when he re-told the story later to an audience far away? Do you have any direct sources outside his own entourage for the circumstances of any of his alleged miracles?

Have you been to Mexico and followed up with the Aztecs or asked around about his work? (And FYI my answer to that question is > 30 times and 'yes').

Basically it seems that even after my warning, your persisting in doing exactly what I suggested was an unwise way to make your case.

@user2479 I'm not waiting for the media to report anything credible about Christianity. But I am aware that much of what gets talked about and hyped in American church circles is smoke and mirrors. I've been to Latin America. I've been to Eastern Europe. I've been to Africa. I've been to places specific things were supposed to have happened and talked to the people that were supposedly there to see it. And you know how much of what goes into missionary field reports is legit?

Charismatics are especially egregious in this department but across the board there are serious issues in this department. Has it occurred to you that refusing to take the accounts and weigh them with a bit of critical thinking and fact checking might work against your witness in other areas?

@user2479 re your point #2: why do you come at me with a classic anti-cessasionist argument of "i've seen x y or z myself"? I'm not even a cessasionist in the way you seem to assume and am not opposed to the idea that God answers payers, intervenes in time and space and does miraculous things.

But whether your story is true or not that doesn't validate everybody else's claims and it was the claims of of a specific individual that were called into doubt and you seem to be resistant to reviewing ether that case or seemingly any other like it with a critical eye for whether there might be more to the story that it's face value.

@Caleb Whoah, hold on! I said I believed the credibility of David Hogan's ministry; some of that is from those that I have accountability with who work directly with him. What I am not doing is being the "Imprimatur" of his ministry. What I am not finding is "By the way, I have raised x number of people from the dead, where is David Hogan's number?"

@Caleb I spent perhaps way too much time addressing the "Cessationist" argument: it's one I bought into(many years ago) and I was laying out some understanding for why I changed; with Scriptural references and personal accounts(2 Cor. 4:12). We should believe Scripture, and I will stand on that.

@All BTW-Cessations don't believe that "all manifestations of supernatural Divine Intervention ended with the Canon of Scripture"-far from it. They believe in the "cessation" of the gifts of the Spirit cited in 1 Cor. 12 with the 'Canon' of Scripture. Frequently they cite "tongues shall cease..." from 1 Cor. 13:8, and "when that perfect(Scripture) come, than that which is part(manifestation of gift) is done away.(vs 10)

@user2479 All of us must, each for his own part, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.

> These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so. (Acts 17:11 NET)

@user2479 Are you thinking of Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God?

@FrankLuke I was thinking of Surprised by the Power of the Spirit

@user2479 I guess the doctor in this video is the same person whom you have mentioned above.

@FrankLuke Sorry, I forgot how to hyperlink in comments

@user2479 Try this --> [link text](http://example.com "optional title")

@PaulVargas I thought it was a different source; I will send you a different one.

@user2479 fixed

@Daи Thank you!

@user2479 Check it out here: How do I format my messages?

@Daи I learned on the computer Jim Lovett used in Apollo 13-its been downhill from there

@user2479 my first was a Radio Shack TRS-80 -- there's hope ;)

@Daи Do you remember the commodes?-I mean Commodore's?

@user2479 haha yes

Commodore 64

@Daи I also wrote a program for an Apple IIc, then my brain cells jelloed

@user2479 nice. I mostly only coded in BASIC, then QBasic, then I learned C

I never learned Visual Basic until much later but I like C# better for .NET

@Daи What I really miss is Dosshell, you could really do some damage with it

mostly now I'm a Python guy

@Daи I tried looking at Linux, but gave up. I learned computers when 10Megs was standard-and donut style core cards stored RAM. It was about 1 1/2 steps ahead of punch cards...

@user2479 how long ago did you try? Many of the debian/Ubuntu-flavored distros are pretty user-friendly these days

I learned Linux by necessity because I had no money haha

@Daи Probably 10 or 12 years ago. My generation doesn't have the typing skills; I learned to type on my grandmother's Smith Corona, the same motion would destroy your keyboard in 5 minutes

@user2479 etsy.com/listing/118879606/… muahaha

@Daи I love it! Just what the digitally challenged need!

@Daи If you saw the movie "Apollo 13", Jim Lovell punched in commands using his slide rule and punching buttons on the IBM 30/60. I actually did that on that same computer-it was a military usage computer using a 30Meg Control Data hard drive-huge!

@Daи We had a 'clitch' on it, so we had to 'lower level' format it and couldn't. A Chief had a 'bright idea', he thought if you put the hard drive in a desicant crystal oven, you could erase the format. Instead, he melted it. We got him a "Pillsbury Doughboy for his efforts.

@user2479 nice

@user2479 I always found it more fun to just crack them open and spin them up while touching the surface with another metal object - like a paperclip

@Daи Those were the days you could see what you were doing.

@user2479 tell me about it. I have to solder most components onto smart phones with the aid of a microscope now

@Daи What more beautiful thing!

@Daи I really should learn to make solder joints that small

@Daи We learned what we called "mini-mod", gold soldering using microscopes. They didn't have 'hybrids' back then, but they had chips with wires which were gold.

@Daи I remember when that first came out

(the mod kit, not the original typewriter)

I'm sadly not old enough to remember typewriters other than as a thing that we had one lying around that was fun to play with because of the noises it made and had moving parts instead of a screen

@user2479 not my keyboard

I have a mechanical keyboard

It is designed to have a much more classical feel. I love having the actual feel to when I press my keys

@AJHenderson You would have loved Freiden Calculators. Divide by Pi, and get your hands out of the way

funny you should say that

3.141592653589793238462643383279502

and no, that is not copy and pasted

I kind of have a thing for Pi

@AJHenderson good, good. And now e (Euler's #), and go....

which actually was just that a friend of mine and I wanted to see who could remember 100 digits first because it was around the ceiling of our homeroom in 8th grade. I did it in 3 days. Those digits are now permanently in my brain whether I want them or not

@AJHenderson A lot of noise, discs and carriages moving. But it was how most companies did pricing and invoicing until Texas Instrument came out with their calculators.

2.718281828459045 is all I can do from memory for that one

mostly because the pattern 1828 repeats twice then it is the angles of an isosceles right triangle

@All With that I'm going to bed-been up all night. Bye!

so all I have to remember is 2.71 + 1828 x 2 + angles of right isosceles triangle

@user2479 bye

@PaulVargas outstanding

I think it was inappropriate.

@PaulVargas no prob, I found it funny :)

@PaulVargas I had found another comic today I find funny but that some may find inappropriate, dealing with how I feel when I want to learn something new: abstrusegoose.com/272 (click the image to continue)

the context is that I'm preparing for some advanced coursework in cryptography, and so I've been reading up on linear algebra and number theory

@PaulVargas I also found it funny, though probably not a good fit for this room in general principal

but yeah, the other fun fact that goes with the number of digits that I have stuck in my head is that if you had a circle the size of the universe, you'd be accurate to sub-electron sizes

if memory serves

there is no point to it at all other than being able to fire it off as rapidly as possible (which it is far more fun to say in person)

same reason it is fun to be an auctioneer

@Daи what do you think of the TrueCrypt fun?

and why don't you hang out on IT Security?

I can potentially understand why you don't hang out in The DMZ

@AJHenderson this isn't a religious site ;)

Report: NSA looking to crack all encryption with quantum computer The spy agency is working on a cryptographically useful quantum computer, according to The Washington Post

@AJHenderson time

@Daи yeah, though it's more likely to be offensive to the general occupants of the room

@AJHenderson indeed, hence why it came with a warning

yeah, I meant Paul's original message

which was directly linked

but I saw it after he removed it already

(yay mod powers... how to guarantee every blue person in a room sees a message 101... delete it)

@AJHenderson ahh yes

@AJHenderson I did nothing. :-/ Ah! Yes, I did. :-)

@AJHenderson haha yup

@AJHenderson yes, if I want to obscure it, I make a radical edit instead ;)

@Daи you can actually prevent it by editing to "removed" and then purging history

that's what I do whenever I delete something in TL

unless I actually want everyone to see it

special note, this doesn't work if you delete first though

you must edit, then delete or the last message is preserved

and there is no way to nuke that

@AJHenderson good to know

least, not for mods

@AJHenderson @Daи There was a word in the image that could be offensive. For this reason, I removed/deleted it.

@PaulVargas it's a good call, especially since the image would be visible to all

@PaulVargas but no big deal

@AJHenderson what were the two sites you mentioned about security?

@Daи IT Security

And The DMZ is their chat room. Enter at your own risk.

@Caleb I've gone there a couple times in response to flags in chat

@AJHenderson or @Daи How do you create an image link?

I never deleted anything because it seemed par for the course haha

@PaulVargas that isn't as scary as it sounds though, symmetric algorithms are pretty darn resistant to quantum attack. They are faster than current, but still impossibly hard. Assymetric crypto (like SSL) has far bigger issues though if quantum computers capable of doing psuedoprime factorization become active

@PaulVargas usually if you post a link to an image in chat it just appears

@PaulVargas it's automatic if you put an SE site url

atleast if they have a logo

Testing...

It works!

@Daи I fairly regularly hang out in DMZ as well, but I think I'm one of the few that you'll find in both the Christian/Bible related chats and the DMZ

@AJHenderson well, I'll pop in and scope it out a bit

@Caleb @AJHenderson I'm always a little leary of the non-SO tech sites

because it seems I can get the same questions answered on SO in half the time

IT Security is really solid

though I am a bit biased as one of the top contributors

we have a few world class experts in sec.se though

@AJHenderson cool

thing about security, is there is far more to security than software development

but enjoy the advanced crypto courses. I loved my graduate level crypto course

even if my brain now falls under US export restriction

the other thing I mentioned was the whole fiasco yesterday about TrueCrypt being shutdown (supposedly)

@AJHenderson I'm starting this program in the fall

either that or their website was hacked

not sure which would be scarier

my emphasis is computational linguistics

my background is digital forensics

excellent

yeah, I only had the one 6000 level crypto course

I dual majored so I didn't have much in the way of free time

but that 6000 level course was extremely informative

@AJHenderson yeah, I've been reading and working through this book to better prepare

I had a linear algebra course prior to taking it

I had to go either linear algebra or calc 3 for my math requirement

I went linear

@AJHenderson probably helped a lot

yes it did

you will learn to love and hate the S-box

my favorite stuff was the asymmetric though

problems that can be solved in one direction but not the other are inherently fascinating to me

@AJHenderson here's the first homework assignment

no specific programming language is required, you are expected to be able to implement the theory in any language you choose

doesn't seem too hard

actually, seems pretty simple

but then again, I have finished a 6000 level crypto class, so a 5000 level should seem easy I suppose

especially the first assignment

even if it was 8 years ago

(oh my I feel old now)

@AJHenderson looks challenging to me haha

@Daи Can JavaScript be used? ;-) Ah! With CSS3 and HTML5.

@PaulVargas I would think so

well if you have questions, asking around Sec.SE or DMZ is a good way to get further explanations. At least 16 to 20 of us actually understand the inner workings of all major cryptos at a reasonable level

and a few know them really, really well

@AJHenderson well, I will likely have lots of questions when I get to that course

actually

now that I think about it, there is actually a Cryptography specific SE as well

I always forget about them

they are actually the better place for the really deep crypto questions. I don't hang out there mostly due to lack of time though

I'm already heavily involved with 4 different sites

@AJHenderson didn't know that, either

@AJHenderson I know the feeling

I want to ask something from the Bible.

@PaulVargas what do you think this is? A room for general discussion of the Bible??? ... oh wait

;)

@AJHenderson Could Job clearly understand the Gospel? i.e. he looked forward in time?

> As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and that as the last he will stand upon the earth. (Job 19:25 NET)

the Prophets spoke of the gospel prior to its full revelation

> He first found his own brother Simon and told him, "We have found the Messiah!" (which is translated Christ). (John 1:41 NET)

> Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." (John 1:45 NET)

that's why Jesus states that "these are those which speak of me"

so Job would have had knowledge of the need of a savior and that a savior existed and would be sent

What do you think of the following?

can't watch a video atm

but my view is that everyone is saved through Christ

both old and new testament

@AJHenderson @PaulVargas that seemed to be Paul's view, too ;)

@PaulVargas The essence of the gospel is God's promise of a child from a woman (Gen 3:15) would solve the sin problem. This was known by mankind right from the start (so to speak). All later revelation is narrowing down Who this child is, and all OT saints looked forward to the coming, while NT saints look back to the One having been revealed, and Who will come again to finalize the work. The essence has been known, the details still coming.

@ScottS good ol' proto-evangel

@Daи @ScottS Did the ancients understood this verse like that?

Any extra-biblical reference?

What is the origin of this interpretation?

@PaulVargas my guess is that it's a post-Christian interpretation

but not sure

@Daи I think that's a very good question whose answer is very important.

@PaulVargas I'm not sure it's entirely answerable

but don't let that dissuade you from asking

@Daи I will publish it. What do you think?

@PaulVargas here is a question with a similar pattern:

The trick is to not ask for a modern Jewish interpretation, but rather to ask for pre-Christian understanding of the text

@Daи I'll need your help for any correction in the question.

The problem is that it is difficult to find pre-Christian Rabbinic sources

@PaulVargas sure

@PaulVargas I believe Eve understood the essence (Gen 4:1, with her emphasis that the child was from the Lord). Of course the verse of Gen 3:15 was not around until Moses, but I believe "the ancients" had verbal knowledge of God's promise prior to that, and some (very few) believed it. Abraham believed the expanded detail of the promise and was accounted righteous (Gen 15:2-6).

@PaulVargas I'll even ask the question if you want

I would ask, "What is the historical basis of viewing Genesis 3:15 as the protoevangelium?"

@Daи That's fine with me. Go ahead!

@Daи You might want to add the text of the LXX and also if this was the thought of the Apostolic Fathers. ;-)

@PaulVargas my general impression has been that some did, but by the time of Christ, most viewed the messiah as being a military leader the style of that which brought them out of exile in the past

@Daи But even if Genesis Rabbah is post-Christian (which its compilation is though some of the traditions within it are pre-Christian) if the rabbis agree the verse is a proclamation of the Messiah, that says much. They would naturally disagree with the identification of Jesus as said Messiah.

@FrankLuke of course, I just am curious what sources exist for this

@AJHenderson I believe this and I think so do many of you.

@PaulVargas I added the LXX to the question

@PaulVargas by asking when this idea developed historically, that begs the question "Who came up with this?" - which was likely a Church Father. So there is no need to explicitly ask for that in my mind

@FrankLuke Well, I found this in the Genesis Rabbah:

> Issi and R. Hoshaya in the name of R. Hiyya the Elder said four things: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him [the serpent]:

> "I made thee that thou shouldest be king over all cattle and beasts, but thou wouldst not have it; therefore, MORE CURSED ART THOU, etc.; I made thee that thou shouldest go upright like man, but thou wouldst not; hence, UPON THY BELLY SHALT THOU GO; I made thee that thou shouldst eat the food of man, but thou wouldst not; hence, AND EARTH SHALT THOU EAT; thou didst desire to kill the man [Adam] and take his wife: therefore, AND I WILL PUT AN ENMITY BETWEEN THEE AND THE WOMAN."

> Thus what he desired was not given him, and what he possessed was taken from him. And we find the same in the case of Cain, Korah, Balaam, Doeg, Gehazi, Absalom, Adonijah, Uzziah, and Haman: what they desired was not given to them, and what they possessed was taken from them.

I think they knew healthy interpretation principles.

I hope this way of writing of mine would not offend anyone.

@PaulVargas there are already two great answers to the question, check em' out

@PaulVargas nahh, not at all

@MarkEdward Thanks for your answer. It was a question I asked myself several months ago.

Just so you guys know, the notification noise for this chat is terrifying when your speakers are at full volume without realizing it.

@PaulVargas And, you are quite welcome.

@MarkEdward Oh! Forgive me. That's my fault. ;-)

@Daи Also references to kings ruling in Israel.

@Mark I've been shock oot of my wits a couple times. It's incogruously loud compared to most of my system (which has most beeps and alerts disabled) and if you happen to have left speakers turned up from something...

@Caleb I don't even know why my speakers were that loud. Then again, the volume is run through a dial, so maybe my daughter cranked it up when I wasn't looking...

@MarkEdward indeed

@MarkEdward @Caleb I jumped in my chair yesterday. :-P