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12:01 AM
@Daи Ah! I see. Thank you.
@brilliant The main problem is that people are treating the Peshitta as if it is the original
but it is written in a dialect of Syriac that didn't exist until over a century after the Gospels and other early writings were recorded
that's like trying to use an English translation to understand the ancient Greek text - anachronistic and foolish (yet Christian teachers/preachers do it daily)
12:23 AM
@Daи "but it is written in a dialect of Syriac that didn't exist until over a century after the Gospels and other early writings were recorded" - How do you know that?
@brilliant I've studied Aramaic, and early Galilean Aramaic is a quite different dialect from Syriac
there were a number of literary dialects, such as Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, Samaritan Aramaic, Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Syriac, Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic, and Mandaic Aramaic
but if you know Hebrew and Aramaic well enough to wade through deep material that assumes this knowledge, check out this book for a detailed analysis of the linguistic differences
even so, Joosten himself will tell you that book is out of date to some extent and has some errors
so reading more recent articles is advised
but the problem is that access to these articles isn't free nor cheap
But my question was How do you that that dialect, in which Peshitta was written, did not exist before the 1st century?!
@brilliant I should reword that. Aramaic clearly existed, even a dialect that is fairly close to the Peshitta, but it's not what would have been spoken in Galilee during that time
8 mins ago, by Daи
there were a number of literary dialects, such as Palestinian Jewish Aramaic, Samaritan Aramaic, Syro-Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Syriac, Babylonian Talmudic Aramaic, and Mandaic Aramaic
The lines blur quite a bit
"but it's not what would have been spoken in Galilee during that time" - Ah, I see.
And there is the issue of whether these discourses indeed took place in Aramaic or Hebrew
it could be either
and as Joosten will demonstrate, some parables only make sense in one or the other, not in both
and they may very well flip flop
I think the events occurred in multiple languages
this quickly becomes too complex to do much beyond speculate
the reality is, we have some excellent copies of Greek manuscripts to play with
and we have some interesting Aramaic manuscripts that gradually begin to include more texts than just some of the Gospels
(the antilegomena appear much later in the Aramaic corpora)
but we don't know much more
12:44 AM
yet none of the oldest Greek manuscripts is as old as the oldest of the Aramaic corpora
@brilliant how do you know that? ;)
I thought that was a fact that all scholars agree upon. Not? I read about it in many various sources.
@brilliant which sources? (Again, most sources that are free are highly unreliable)
in this particular area
Do you know any Greek manuscript that is dated before Peshitta?
@brilliant can you find me a single source that says a Peshitta manuscript of the New Testament is older that is not from the works of George Lamsa, nor from any individuals within the Messianic Judaism movement in North America, nor within the Assyrian Church of the East?
12:51 AM
"Again, most sources that are free are highly unreliable" - This makes me feel at least suspicious. Why is it so that reliable sources are not available?
@brilliant because we don't know much
we don't know when a lot of the manuscripts are from
all we have is speculation
so when someone says definitely one thing or the other, it is suspect
One of the most convincing arguments for me, though, is that when we look at the New Testament in light of Jesus’ own dialect (early Galilean Aramaic, a dialect quite different from Syriac), we can find places where such phenomena (wordplay, puns, mistranslations, etc.) exist that are not present in the Peshitta. That is huge
"can you find me a single source that says a Peshitta manuscript of the New Testament is older" - - "Volume of the book" by Welch
"all we have is speculation" - But I thought that even speculations of all agree that Peshitta ated older than any available Greek manuscript we have
@brilliant the reality is, the manuscripts appear to be about the same age
I don't think we can say definitively which is older
I tend to think the Aramaic would have been the originals for the gospels, but probably not the extant copies
then instead of "the reality is" you should be saying "my speculation is"
keep in mind that Welch wrote that before the discovery of the DSS and whatnot
@brilliant it sounds like you've already made your mind up on this
I'm simply saying that I've spoken to folks who teach this stuff at places like Oxford, Notre Dame, and Strassbourg, and they tell me just don't know
And I shared an article with you explaining this
from one of these folks
It's not my speculation
It's the consensus of scholars who do this for a living and are recognized by others who do the same
a lot of the most scholarly stuff on all of this is on JSTOR
1:00 AM
so, you mean to say, that consensus of scholars is that we don't know which Greek of Aramaic manuscript was dated when, right?
I am quite puzzled now, because Wikipedia says almost in each one of its articles something like
scientist agree that this-and-this manuscript was written not earlier than bla-bla-bla
What is DSS?
@brilliant dead sea scrolls
What is JSTOR?
@brilliant we have a decent idea going back to the 4th/5th century, but prior to that we don't know which came first
@swasheck thanks for the feedback, I hope you will find the site useful.
most agree that Jesus would have mostly spoken Aramaic and Hebrew (it was only after the discover of Nag Hammadi, DSS, and other findings that scholars have begun to realize that early Mishnaic Hebrew is just as likely a candidate as Aramaic),
but whether the Gospels were originally penned in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek? No one really knows
that's what I'm saying
@brilliant but knowing that an extant copy in one language from the fourth century is older than an extant copy from the fifth century tells us nothing about which language the work was written in first
that's what I'm trying to explain
1:07 AM
@swasheck, as Daи said, I'm still in a very early phase of testing so there will definitely be bugs and I can't guarantee that nothing bad will happen to your annotations. That said, if you want to throw caution to the wind and start uploading and annotating texts, that would be really helpful for load testing this project and seeding it with content.
Also, one of the main reason I'm showing this project around at this point is to get feedback for new features to implement and usability improvements...so let me know if you have any.
@Ami oh we will haha
@Daи, I restored your two annotations. Also, as you may have noticed, text annotation was totally broken since last night's update but it should be fixed now.
@Daи "keep in mind that Welch wrote that before the discovery of the DSS" - But Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956 and Welch wrote "The Volume of the Book" in 1971.
@brilliant yes but this is pre-Internet, and pre having easy access to those
we're still learning about them
even if he did nothing but spend his whole life reading them from that point on, he's still only glean some from it
I've got to get dinner
enjoy reading the article
1:33 AM
@Daи you asked: "do you intend to allow users to highlight the text to annotate in a future update?" Yes, I just added it to the trello.
2:03 AM
@Ami what's your motivation? also ... are you thinking of posting to github or something and inviting collaboration?
@swasheck, just for fun.
The repository is already publicly available on github
@swasheck, are you interested in collaborating?
@Ami to the degree that i can ... sure
(i've recently made myself quite busy)
nice. so are you a .net dev?
2:13 AM
(unless that wasnt supposed to be funny)
I work for a small custom software development company so I end up using a lot of different languages and technologies
but .NET the most.
Are you a DBA?
i see.
@Ami guilty
are you doing the free azure preview with this?
i have my own personal projects for which i was using azure
but then the trial ended
it's a pay-as-you-go subscription and right now it comes out to a few dollars a month
2:16 AM
even with data, or how are you managing that?
You're billed for what you use
I don't think they charge for database under 20MB
right. my calculations DIDNT come out to that cheap
the best i've been hoping for is installing server 2012 core with my msdn sub and having a web/sql environment
but i wasnt sure how to get mvc .net installed on core
Interesting, I was not familiar with server core.
@Ami looks like <100MB is free
Nice, I didn't actually bother to look it up...
2:27 AM
well. i'm getting conflicting information
nonetheless ... my database is currently 1.5G
2 hours later…
4:02 AM
@brilliant I'm back if you're still around
I'm very curious to know your faith background
You've asked questions about Eastern Orthodoxy on C.SE before, which is intriguing to me
4:31 AM
@Daи I grew up as an Orthodox Christian in Russian Orthodox Church, but that was more like nominal than real. I mean, I followed all the rituals, traditions and customs, but I can't say I had faith at that time.
@Daи My real believing happened when I started reading Watchman Nee’s books and joined Local churches (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Local_Churches), that’s when
I prayed to Jesus for the first time in my life with my own words and began to believe in real.
Now I am still practicing my Christian life in that group, however, I am not so much into Witness Lee’s ministry anymore (he is one of the main teachers in the The Local Churches) and am becoming bigger and bigger fan of C. H. Welch and E. W. Bullinger’s books.
@brilliant ok very cool
we have taken opposite faith journeys :P
I grew up Protestant, ran much of the gamut of the denominations, and then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy
What do you appreciate about Orthodoxy the most, and what do you find as weak or as a kind of lack?
@brilliant encountering God
and the lack: Phyletism and its consequences
I mean the teaching.
@brilliant same answer, but I suppose I could say 'theosis'
4:40 AM
I see. To me ,the biggest lack in Orthodoxy is "vagueness" in doctrines, especially with regard to salvation.
At times I get the feeling that that and other doctrines there haven't been fully worked out.
I mean one priest says one thing, another one another thing, and there is no one official view like in Roman Catholic Church
@brilliant that's what I like the most haha
so long as one confesses the Nicene Creed, one is Orthodox
believing that the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church
"that's what I like the most haha" :) - WE are really different then. I really suffered a lot from this kind of uncertainty.
@brilliant I can appreciate that, tho
I suffered a lot from things being too well defined
"believing that the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" - so then I am not a part of that Church, according to your belief, right?
@brilliant I know where the Orthodox Church is, but I can never be too sure where it is not ;)
note that I've modified that from how Orthodox folks normally say it
4:49 AM
that's the "vagueness" I was talking about :)
to remove the false humility and backhanded slap in the face
the reality is that you'll find fundamentalist strains even within Orthodoxy, which wish to define everything precisely (e.g. ROCOR and some others)
and you'll find those who use an accepted culture of apophatic theology as an excuse for heresy and rationalist secular individualism
and you can find all of this in Western Christianity as well
it's just that the Orthodox don't abandon their unity over it - not officially, anyways
talks of autocephaly tell a different story
yet they still view one another as Orthodox
I see. Well, for me things are much more simple with this now - anyone who has prayed to Jesus believing that He is God and the Son of God is a part of One Universal Church.
Sorry. Can't talk more at the moment. Need to run
(I would want to return to the topic of manuscripts next time)
@brilliant no prob, chat is asynchronous
5:54 AM
@swasheck I now have a tech blog and an 'everything else' blog. There are no posts on the latter yet, but if you click on 'Huh?' at the top you can see the 'about' page which is tentatively finished, pending I change my mind about something.... :P
6:05 AM
I think I like participating on meta so much that I created a meta.westernsecularworld site :P
8 hours later…
1:53 PM
@David I wanted to tell you that in order to correct the last comment I'd made on hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/7996/2873, I had to delete it and enter another. Now my new one is below yours. Thanks.
2 hours later…
3:56 PM
A: What is really being said in Mathew 6:22-23

BKchiefI believe this scripture is dealing with the things we set our eyes on. By setting our sights on what is ungodly, we allow darkness to enter our hearts. By setting our eyes on the things of our Lord, we receive light. Here are some scriptures that I feel support this view: "For he was lookin...

This ^^^^ seems like a very lightweight answer to be accepted and alone: I'm going to try and do better myself but I hope someone more knowledgeable might step up too.
4:23 PM
A: Beta sites should be in the Data Explorer

Nick CraverSites in public beta will now appear in the data explorer, refreshed weekly like everything else.

4:35 PM
@TRiG data refresh is pretty ssssslllllooooowwwwww
@JohnMartin Thanks for the heads-up - I'm quite new to this part of StackExchange, and only just stumbled on your note here. Helpful place to have "offline" conversations, so as not to "clog" main Q&A site? All I meant to say in my last comment is that clarifying your objections to Hughes should help you make progress in your own thinking about this particular (and knotty!) problem. Bye for now!
@JackDouglas done
5:39 PM
@JackDouglas Jack-Is there a way to edit my wording I put in a bounty? hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q/7422/2873
1 hour later…
6:43 PM
Q: Can we have a way to edit bounty text?

Eric HuI put up this bounty over on SO with the assumption that the text would be formatted like it is for a question or answer. I'm not really sure if I was incorrect in my assumption, or if I just formatted my text improperly, as I can't go back and edit what I put in. Am I missing an obvious featur...

I'm afraid the answer is 'no'
a moderator can remove a bounty (which refunds the rep)
I'll check if that tool is intended to be used like this
7:02 PM
@JohnMartin I've asked around and I think the answer is "we can do it, but we don't want to encourage it" or something
I'm happy to remove the bounty and allow you to repost it if that is what you want but I'd prefer you let one of us know sooner after the bounty was posted if at all possible
let me know if that's what you want :)
3 hours later…
10:16 PM
I just had to preserve this for fun:
Quite the score :P
@Daи Hi Dan - I discovered "The Library" earlier today :) Was just going to post this as a comment to you (Re: "666"): "Ack! It's a plot! :) I better DV somewhere - that'll move me away from the apocalypse, right?"
@David haha you'll get an upvote soon enough
We live in hope! (Well, I do, anyway!)
@David I've really been enjoying your contributions here, lately. What's your background (faith/other)?
That's a whacking great bonus you sent my way - thanks for that. On bg:
I'm fascinated to participate in "the commons", though - if you see what I mean
10:29 PM
@David for sure, and we appreciate you joining us
I think I had my eye on BH.SE for a little while - I've been on SO for a long time
@David ok cool
@David no no yours is fine
@David very neat
Not sure if that's the kind of computational stuff that would interest you,
10:43 PM
@David I can only see the abstract, so it's hard to say
@Daи @David ... hi @David
If any of it looks of interest, I can probably grab pdf for you
Hi @swasheck - nice to meet you
howdy. i'm having a hard time sifting through this (due to my fruitfly attention span)
@David please do!
Unfortunately, I still have to work.
10:46 PM
no need to apologize
I take it from Dan that you have an interest in Hebrew semantics?
Greek. but i'm interested in semantics in general.
one of my ill-fated doctoral ideas was to trace the progression from Linear A -> Koine Greek to see if Hellenization could be traced linguistically ...probably too much and i've decided no phd work for now
Right - that would be ambitious.
that led me to become interested in computational linguistics for reasons i've since forgotten
@Daи - I have a PDF for you - how would you prefer to get at it?
10:51 PM
but they're written down in a journal in my office
@David thanks!
Got it if you want to remove
@David so what do you do for this project?
indeed. so what kinds of projects are these?
It began in the early 90s, so it's been kicking around for awhile
@David I understand that
11:00 PM
projects - there was a good example online, but it's not up now that the site is getting migrated
I had one just complete on sematics of Hebrew terms associated with "glory", another on the way on an aspect of "everyday life" - language for cooking (!)
presents some interesting challenges for "lexemes" where we lack "encyclopedic knowledge"
let me see if I can find a link
no kidding
@Daи - email bounced: "recipient rejected" / "it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain..."
@David one moment
Yep - that's exactly what I used
do you have admin rights to see my email?
If you do, feel free to send me a note
I'm sending from gmail, btw
@David I see the problem, but for now I can send and not receive
good idea
11:14 PM
Got it
and sent
It's bedtime for me, though, so I better sign off
Glad to meet up here.
And - for fun - it looks like I've "maxed" for the day, so will be on 666 for a little while longer. ;)
@David haha nice
perhaps. ;)
Hope to chat again soon - bye for now!
@David same here
have a good night
@swasheck now to figure out why my email is broken haha

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