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2:18 AM
Q: Fast telephoto primes for APS-C mounts — would they make any sense?

Jukka SuomelaI can see the benefit of designing and manufacturing a wide-angle lens specifically for APS-C sized sensors instead of full-frame sensors: you will get smaller, lighter, and cheaper lenses. But is it really useful only for wide-angle lenses? For example, the Wikipedia page on Canon EF-S lenses w...

Is the Pentax system unique with respect to this question?
Or do other brands focus on APS-C sensors as more than just a low end alternative?
2:41 AM
@Sean didn't that question start out focused on canon EF-S?
yeah, @mattdm edited it to be generic
damn I hate it when somebody says just enough econ to convince the public of total shit
@rfusca ?
eh, the question about why a D700 costs so much. The camera market is plenty competitive for normal econ to apply, but somebody is basically saying that camera companies are just out to screw you
i'm just venting
2:57 AM
@rfusca Isn't that one way of looking at normal econ? That everyone acts selfishly and in their own best interest, which makes everything work out in the long run.
@rfusca Yeah, I hate that too. Economics these days is probably the largest driver of price...taxation, large import tariffs, government meddling, etc. are making it very difficult for manufacturing to get a leg up these days.
@cabbey Yes, I had noticed a Canon bias on that question, but since it wasn't explicitly stated, I thought maybe there should be some broader context of the rest of the camera market mentioned.
@Sean thats micro economics yes, but we're not talking about micro, its a macro thing. We're talking about groups of people and companies - they collectively act similar, but its not as though a company can just pick a price and say "screw the customer" - it just really doesn't work like that
There are some powerful forces that drive pricing for manufactured products these days.
3:00 AM
Its not nearly as simple as "just picking a price".
if Canon wanted to sell their flagship camera for 5k but it really only costs 100 bucks to make it - Nikon would just lower their's to 4k and steal EVERY BIT OF THEIR BUSINESS
but they don't
because they can't
because it doesn't work like that
There is a balance between cost, supply, demand, and competitive price that equals a worth-while profit margin. Its a pretty narrow band, and while there is some wiggle room, there ain't a lot.
Which is one of the things that has me curious about the Digital MF market.
@jrista That's where a Nash equilibrium comes in.
While I understand that manufacturing a larger sensor certainly costs more due to lower yield, I can't imagine the difference is enough to really, truly warrant a $40,000 price tag for the average digital MF camera.
I mean, Canon offers a FF camera, which is just over 1/4 the size of a full size MF sensor, for $2400.
What is the pixel count on that one?
3:07 AM
but thats beside the point
pixel density is quite a bit smaller on MF sensors
and the cost of manufacturing a larger sensor is a little more than 4x the cost of manufacturing a FF sensor
@Sean umm i can't say i've really since Nash thrown into that mix before...i mean, maybe, kind of. But, not really.
accounting for the increased sensor cost due to low yield, and throwing in some extra cost for better electronics, more features, maybe brand name, and a little bit of a premium for it simply being a digital medium format
you might get up to $20k
but thats still half the average price for most MF cameras
i gotta think that tooling up a factory is a high portion of it
for making the sensors?
@rfusca I'm thinking of the context of a duopoly or oligopoly (such as between Nikon and Canon).
3:10 AM
hmm...that begs another question...do MF camera makers make their own sensors, or farm that out?
@Sean possibly, but Nash is usually brought into the mix for games with some level of cooperation between players. I could be applied there, but I just think its unneeded. I don't think Nikon and Canon are colluding with each other (I really don't)
it does in an extremely basic sense though
@jrista regardless of sending it out or not, somebody is paying for it and its not a crowded market
@rfusca Sure, but farming it out to an existing fab costs FAR less than building your own billion dollar fab.
And as far as I can tell, all the MF companies farm out.
@rfusca I don't think there is a requirement for explicit cooperation. Just being aware of the impacts their actions will have on the market and on each other can lead to a situation where a Nash equilibrium makes sense.
@Sean no, there's no requirement - sorry if i implied that.
If your talking about the game theory thing, I think its a bit more complex than that.
There is at least one fairly random force involved in any real world market that makes that difficult: consumers.
I guess you could call them the indeterministic third player.
3:21 AM
nod thats what I was saying, game theory typically isn't applied in large economic markets because there's far too many players.
its more common with a small group of players
like trade negoiations, court mediations
stuff with smaller number of players
the field of macro-game theory is very limited right now
not to say it doesn't exist
I haven't read much about it, so I couldn't say.
But what I do know about it seems to limit it as you said.
90+ percent of my education is in econ
interesting....so, if you were to give the obaminator one piece of economic advice, what would it be? ;P
"back the fuck off"
that would be mine too
we had a discussion about obama the other day, I blurted that out, rather loudly, in a restaurant
everyone nodded their heads
3:25 AM
it was pretty amazing
that dude has a serious issue with the separation of powers and check/balances
well, sadly, he still has one house of our congress supporting his violation of our constitution
I feel really betrayed by Nevada
I'm also a bit miffed at the republicans
They've proved they are still the wimps they've been the last couple decades with their "historic" budget deal.
i'm not much fan of any of the politicians right now
heh, its rather ironic
we were also discussing politicians the other day
3:28 AM
they keep making decisions where "they know better" than all of the polls of americans who are like "we don't want that!"
I may be wrong...but it seems that the vast majority of them are also lawyers, or ex judges, or someone who has been integrally related to the legal domain.
i'm just afraid come election time everybody will go dumb again
I got a roll of hilarity the other day when I made some quip about them only being qualified to do ONE thing: Write more law.
takes alot of money to get elected, you have to be well connected
well, that...or, if the liberals and obama are right...all you have to do is hand out more money
@rfusca Which is also ironic...for all their war against the wealthy...they ARE the friggin wealthy....
3:30 AM
i wish there was somewhere in the world i could move to and just not have to deal with government, but still have all the amenities i want - like electricity, internet
lol, internet is a definite
i'd love to live in the wilderness, but i'd like the OPTION to be connected when I want to
so the rich think the rich should pay more taxes
why do the poor complain?
I'll have painful withdrawl symptoms if the bottom really does fall out and power production stops...I can't live without internet :P
oh, I was reading something the other day
about tesla coils
and how Tesla figured out how to extract energy right out of the air
most people thing its rediculous, but according to a newer theory of physics and astrophysics I've been reading, the air IS a weakly charged plasma
assuming thats the case, there is a tremendous amount of energy in our atmosphere, powered by the sun
which would make it possible to extract energy from it
The Second Law of Thermodynamics comes to mind...
3:33 AM
you aren't creating energy
just extracting and converting energy that is there
energy can be converted
the trick is you need something with a neutral or opposite charge to dump the charge into
check out "Electric Universe" and "Plasma Cosmology"
once you understand the "Earth as a Leaky Capacitor" concept, you'll understand why I think its possible
@EvanKrall yeah, thats supposedly what Tesla's device is
Energy stored in a "more orderly" manner can be extracted efficiently. Otherwise, not so much.
seems one of Eddison's guys managed to nab it
@Sean Where does the second law state that?
Conservation of Momentum, Conservation of Energy, and Entropy
plasmas tend to store energy, and allow current flow in "double layers" between plasma cells of differing charge
Essentially the concept of entropy is dealing with order and disorder
3:37 AM
I'm guessing that Tesla's device somehow creates a large enough charge differential to create current flow from the atmosphere into the device
I just haven't found any specifics about how it works yet.
seems like its high voltage low current
so it wouldn't run much
but, it might be useful to charge a camera out in the field
although apparently Tesla did experiments where he broadcast electricity through the air over 25 miles and lit 200 light bulbs near Colorado Springs
@jrista That is capturing energy from radio waves (somebody is paying for the transmissions, just not you). The efficiency of wireless power systems is extremely low. There have been some recent attempts to improve it, but there is a very long way to go before it is viable for more that a few inches.
Sure, its not a high efficiency system in little one-offs like that.
My point came out of an unvoiced thought about still using my DSLR if our country ends up in financial collapse.
It might take a while, but there is no reason you couldn't transform the current you get like that to the right voltage and type to charge up camera batteries.
You could probably also create an array of collectors to generate enough electricity to run the lights in a house.
3:53 AM
Magnetically coupled resonance looks like a promising way of bringing up the efficiency.
As for the EM waves, we get plenty of that from the sun and from space, so we don't need to be generating our own radio waves.
@Sean Yeah, I read stuff about that a while back.
"WiTricity is rooted in such well-known laws of physics that it makes one wonder why no one thought of it before."
Its so sad how people seem to have entirely forgotten the amazing work Tesla did, and the amazing discoveries he made.
Our entire power infrastructure and all the benefits of electronics today owe to his genius.
@chills42 @jrista and @RowlandShaw - looks like our 48 hours are up again. The message on the PSE page is gone again.
4:08 AM
should be up again
@jrista - not seeing it yet, but I'll check back again in a few minutes. What a pain, huh?
not sure why they have a 2-day limit
would be nice to have a 7-day limit
then our problems would be over
@jrista Looks like it's all set again. See you in two days. ;-)
ok, thanks (for the verification) :)
4:27 AM
damn, somebody submit a better photo for this week
4:39 AM
/me hasn't looked yet
wow, three downvotes in there already?
4:53 AM
I guess I could, but it seems kind of pointless at this late point.
A couple already have 8 or 9 votes.
A: Weekly Featured Image: Apr 18, '11

cabbeyApril's Promise We've had plenty of April's showers, here's hoping May lives up to the old adage. extracted from this shot on SmugMug

and I'm not sure any of my work would really be any better
its been raining here, so I don't have any good photos of spring blooms yet
There's no limit on the image having to be current.... i just used one from last year.
yeah, I've already posted some of my best though
i think this might be the first one I've done
4:56 AM
I might try that floating water droplet thing
maybe people would go for that
if I didn't have LR up and had just been fooling around with old wall papers for the last couple hours when @rfusca complained I wouldn't have botherd
damn, somebody is voting harsh
oooh that water drop stuff looked awesome
yeah. downvotes on those threads really don't seem appropriate :(
prolly one of the other folks trying to get their pic up
i thought that... but the ones that don't have downvotes, also don't have -2 rep hits in their profile
whoa. i've already got a -1, and the beer one is now -2?
5:00 AM
ya, your -1 was what i was commenting on
/me makes a note to check the next time they do a monthly data dump to see if they include who downvoted what
I downvoted
I thought the beer one was just terrible
didn't really like the ... dome thing?
The vinyard shot could be so much better
still debating whether to down vote the indian sunset
its got some appeal
Guffa's china shot is not bad
i don't care for it, (the indian sunset)
I don't really care for it either
but its not as bad as the beer shot
I"ll admit, if I was in a nasty mood, the beer shot would likely get a -1 from me too. none of them really were images I'd choose to see for the next week... none of them really speak to me. That's why I submitted my own.
5:05 AM
I dunno
I guess I have been hoping for better quality shots.
The white elegance is a nice demonstration of high key
we've had some good weeks
has some nice bokeh
but it still comes off as rather boring
Guffa's china is much nicer, its composed a bit better, and the focus is very nice.
@rfusca A couple...but we've had a lot of weeks.
Maybe we should spice it up a bit.
Pick a weekly theme, set some criteria, and see what people come up with.
Rather than just letting it be wildly open.
not a bad idea
5:08 AM
Should exhibit good control over focus and DOF.
Should show skill with composition.
Should demonstrate skill with color composition.
things like that
Might even encourage people to get out and take some new shots
there's something I could use
a reason to get out of the office and shoot
me too
i grabbed my camera the other day and there was literally a film of dust on it. :(
i think my image is the only to break 30 votes
theme's would be nice
seems like it
I really liked that jelly fish shot
pretty amazing shot
5:11 AM
@rfusca and it had a handful of very good competition.
That rose was your first shot with your extension tubes, right?
@jrista yup
Friol's got 29 votes
and sebastians, the very first one, got 29
nite guys
5:31 AM
@cabbey I generally downvote with wild abandon on the weekly picture threads, frankly. I figure that if I'm going to have to stare at something every damn time I come to the site for a whole week I'm going to do my best to make sure it isn't a picture that annoys me... and there always seem to be a bunch that annoy me.
downvotes in meta don't seem to really have any impact on folks reputation... so it probably doesn't matter
I like the idea of themes
@cabbey They don't seem to. I don't bother explaining my downvote (like I generally try to on the main site) because I tend to viscerally feel pretty harshly and not-even-a-little-bit rationally about the pictures that I don't like...
and "-1 'cause your picture makes me want to stab my eyes out with a rusty fork" just doesn't seem that constructive or helpful to the person who took the picture... :-)
2 hours later…
7:22 AM
I think I figured out why a certain stretch of highway between me and mountain view has very monochromatic yellow light
they're low pressure sodium, which has two very close strong peaks, right near the middle of human luminance sensitivity, so they're very efficient.
there's an observatory nearby, and the lower intensity and very narrow spectrum means the light pollution is more easily filtered out
5 hours later…
12:48 PM
@cabbey This is a common "gaming the system" technique on server fault and stack overflow. I guess if it gets the questions answered, I don't care. The "Enlightened" badge seems to encourage it, though. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/20978/…
3 hours later…
3:39 PM
@mattdm yeah, familiar with it, never liked it.
I'm quite proud to say I earned my Enlightened badge with an un-edited answer :)
Usually my edits are grammar and spelling and such.
3:56 PM
@DLambert haha.. so you just raised the low bar? ;)
@cabbey I dunno -- maybe lowered it...
4 hours later…
7:59 PM
@cabbey reputation isn't impacted in meta at all, your reputation is simply carried over from the main site.
@JayLancePhotography agreed
@chills42 yeah, noticed that on child meta sites. m.s.o itself is the exception, but I didn't realize it was an exception until last night
@cabbey yeah, that one is an oddball all around
1 hour later…
9:08 PM
Q: Photography concepts using SX20

LucianoI've bought a Powershot sx20 half a year ago and I'm quite happy with it although I know it doesn't compare to a DSLR. I've learning photography on my own: bought a 58mm ring and some filters (cpl, nd8, macro, star cross). I've got chdk to save in RAW so later with Photoshop I can reduce the no...

handy andy
@Jritsa @RowlandShaw handy andy
@rfusca ta
9:25 PM
Its amazing...I don't think there is a question that matt hasn't edited at least one these days. :P
10:02 PM
@jrista I like everything to look nice and be organized. :)
matt's our resident ocd ;)
@rfusca only while I have the attention span for it. :)
10:37 PM
ADD and OCD...scary stuff
10:54 PM
@jrista They're, like, the Twin Pillars of the Internet
11:05 PM
And if someone else doesn't put [equipment-recommendation] on this one soon, I'm gonna. :)
Q: What tripod is this? Can you recommend something similar or better?

Paul McMillanI was reading the recently released review of the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II over at The Digital Picture, and really liked the neat little tripod used for the example shots. The head is the Acratech GV2 Ballhead, but I can't figure out the legs. Does anyone know what tripod this is? Do y...

You're welcome. :-)
@mattdm The more you do it, the more time I have to myself. ;P
community effort etc, etc, blah blah blah :)
gtg. see yall later
11:59 PM
I love this guys work:

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