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12:02 AM
[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] 1 opened issue. 4 issue comments.
[Zomis/FactorioMods] 10 commits. 846 additions. 684 deletions.
[Minesweeper] Games Played: 34, Bombs Used: 27, Moves Performed: 4831, New Users: 4
2 hours later…
2:03 AM
i now understand why wireframing tools are pervasively used in web design
css is so painful to work with it is impossible to get even a rough version of an idea down quickly
1 hour later…
3:32 AM
2 hours later…
5:14 AM
@Feeds wow this actually made me cry a little
it's so...true
6 hours later…
10:51 AM
True indeed. "We have a vaccine coming! Just wait, we'll all be safe then!" "Well, the vaccine is here, and everyone should take it, but you're still not safe."
When will it end...
@this oh, yeah, sorry, you're right. I had a sip of the kool aid. Thanks for pulling me back from the brink
1 hour later…
12:09 PM
@FreeMan am I only one bothered by the fact that whenever a kid says "I'm thristy", they are in danger of being hit by bricks or beams or whatever it is when the big red pitcher guy barges in?
won't anyone think of the children?!?
12:25 PM
Hot take: anyone who drinks kool-aid endorses wanton murder of children.
12:47 PM
1 hour later…
1:54 PM
I am trying to find a old article that warns against use of Erl - I want to say that it was recommended against using it because there are conditions where it may not behave as expected and that can lead to surprises. But I can't find that article. Does anyone else know?
The use of Earl Grey, however, is fully supported.
note that it can lead to delayed sleep cycles, especially when used late in the day
don't make your CPUs work overtime :)
note 2: Sleep() is not guaranteed to be accurate
2:46 PM
@this IIRC it was a SO answer by Comintern
wtf, I can't seem to find it anywhere
maybe it's a mass hallucination event?
I did indeed think it was a SO post (but wasn't sure if it was comintern or thunderframe)
I also recall an article like that
and nope, haven't found it. It does not help that erlang gets in the way
"erl" yields zero results when filtered for Cominterns' user ID
could it be that it was an article by wayne?
2:59 PM
[vba] is:answer "Erl" -> 14 results
@Vogel612 at least not on his website (searched erl site:everythingaccess.com, no good result)
3:56 PM
> Microsoft Defender SmartScreen blocked the download flagging the file as 'could harm your device'.

Additionally, a few other authorities flag it as well: https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/b16b65e5120fad2095e97f5fe1cfac73d7668c102c0a182ce544868c0c75a0a3/details.
@Duga #NotTheFirstTime mumblemumblemumble
IMNSHO, Antivirus is the virus.
What about RD does it consider to be harmful?
most likely just because it's new
AV usually dislike new things.
even if all you did was change a byte in the .exe / .dll file, AV gets all huffy, complaining "that's not how it works!"
4:12 PM
> File is not signed.
even if it was signed, AV still will complain. AIUI, Mat once bought a certificate only to see AV complaining anyway just because it's new
That's unfortunate
8 mins ago, by this
IMNSHO, Antivirus is the virus.
Is there an upcoming release for RD? I've seen a few merges the last couple of weeks.
It already happened. That's why the reports.
4:24 PM
3 Days late. Worse than usual.
hey, better 3 days later than never!
You miss a day, you miss a lot!
Not surprising considering I merge upstream/next whenever I want the latest-n-greatest.
5:07 PM
> Thanks for the heads up!

This is a recurring and frankly extremely annoying behavior from AV software, that IMO is massively hurting OSS as a whole. If I recall correctly the last Rubberduck build I bothered to get white-listed was v1.4.3, back in 2015. The white-listing process ("just send us an email sent from a corporate email account") disgusted me so much, I consider anti-virus companies and their bloated software little more than a giant scam.

As you know this is open-source softwa
> If the AV is actually preventing installation with no option to bypass, you may want to wait a couple of days and try again.

On occasion, I've had the installer flagged by our corporate AVs (yes, at one time, IT had 3 (three!) different AV apps installed on our machines). Either I've stuck with an older pre-release build until a new one was released (often within days), or I simply tried again the next day and it installed without complaint.
> Note that it's 4 providers **out of 68**, and the fact that we're using an InnoSetup installer script **alone** accounts for over 48% of the "threat" rating. Consider the alternative: we could burn $1,250 for an InstallShield license just so antivirus providers stop telling people we're dangerous, and then we'd be distributing the _exact same software_ and none of these providers would be flagging it.

See how it's a scam?
I hate antivirus. It's mutual.
@IvenBach oh hi!
5:25 PM
You know, I bet that if Rubberduck shipped with ads for facebook, they'd probably say it was A-OK
5:45 PM
the $1K+ InstallShield license that would eliminate that false-flagging is seriously infuriating
Cynet malicious score: 100
hmm.... is it because we changed the installer?
meaning, if we had green-released without altering the installer would it have been less obnoxious?
I don't think so. Merely having an innosetup installer script gets you flagged.
it's all about corporatism and $$$
do we know if there's an alternative that won't get flagged? WiX for instance?
feels like he just dropped the Voldemort's name
IIRC we did try WiX at one point... IIRC that would mean going back to having a VBAx86 installer download, a VBAx64 installer download, and then a VB6x86 installer download.
lovely UX
5:55 PM
isn't it The-Installer-That-Must-Not-Be-Used?
Yeah, they did finally get around to provide a graphical bootstrapper
But, I am worried that if we use the bootstrapper, it'll just put us back to square one because malicious code!!!
and it's not exactly effort-free either
You understated that just a little teensy.
I wonder if it's actually less scary to author our own installer....
says the man who struggled to (re)learn Pascal to build the current mouse trap...
relearn? That implies that man knew Pascal beforehand.
hmm or maybe we're doing it wrong. Take out all the stupid pascal script, just install the files to a temporary location and then at end of install, run a .exe program to do the actual installing.
stop drinking kool-aid, this
> Perfect. That all makes sense. Thanks for the color.

I will wait for more downloads before trying again on my end. I am dealing with a corporate AV that tends to be very strict.
6:06 PM
@this hence (re) learn... I wasn't sure which it was
Never programmed in Pascal before that.
Learnt that it was as horrid as advertised.
It seems to me that all programming languages from that era had one thing in common; they love being inconsistent.
back then languages had a heart. nowadays everything is cleansed, robotically consistent. WHERE IS THE SOUL?!!
AV and smartscreen really need to learn how to check GH provenance more intelligently. Especially smartscreen, now that they are from the same. damn. company...
@MathieuGuindon lol
6:13 PM
@MathieuGuindon umm... there go all our complaints about VBA...
VBA's a mangly ugly dog but aw, look at this fella. Just can't say no to a sad face like that.
@Duga is that like Dippin' Dots?
6:21 PM
@this definitely an underdog =)
"The little toy language that could"
Oh wow I almost missed that notification - we got a $50 donation today!
> Thank you very much for all your efforts made in the matter!
and another $25 yesterday
it seems like it just previewed few days ago
what happens to the $20K then?
@MathieuGuindon Doesn't get collected
6:30 PM
yeah, all or nothing, basically
yeah... iiuc, a lot of people set a modest target, then "stretch goals" for extra benefits. odd that he didn't...
> It is a shame we couldn't reach this crowdfunding goal, but project don't stop here. I want to see RAD Basic going alive and a lot of people have contact me for don't giving up.

As we could see, this failure makes you rethink how this project. I will change to funding full development process, to a iterative process, finding a way to get funding in a monthly basis.

So, I'm preparing a Patreon page for all of you who want to continue collaborating in RAD Basic. I will share with you ASAP (next hours??).
I don't think he has a USP since twinBASIC...
6:35 PM
unique selling proposition
but didn't he get gui already?
yeah Wayne kinda threw them a wrench there
@this unclear how complete, none of the demos interact with his designer.
...another way of seeing it would be that it's sane competition that can only lift both projects
@mansellan the "this looks fake" pushback from the VB crowd didn't help either
6:38 PM
@mansellan oh.... ^
yeah the images on the KS page gave me the impression that he had a functional designer
but I haven't seen any of the videos.
yeah... I kinda hinted at that without outright calling it - thing is the demos did look fake. I think its most likely that the demos were just not as good as they could have been.
Didn't help that he was asked for a proof of concept (enough to compile hello world) but didn't provide it
I guess most engineers are not also salespeople...
still, he did get 184 backers, which is encouraging
@mansellan that would have gone a long way towards shutting down any "meh fake" attitude
I don't think it was a scam, but couldn't prove it wasn't
features aside, wayne did a much better sales job - utterly convincing demos on YT, alpha builds, public preview...
7:04 PM
does that mean tB has some kind of reflection API on the way?!
hope so!
wayne did say he was thinking of reflection when he worked on the IDispatch stuff
tbh I'm starting to itch for a MSForms tB equivalent
VBMVVM isn't very fun to make with a single-file project, but having to run it as a standalone exe to test & debug is the killer
that said TextBoxPropertyBinding works both ways now
in principle
Oh wow - RadBasic made it onto The Register. @WaynePhillipsEA you'd definitely get a story. Might be a double-edged sword though - lots of exposure but the comments will be brutal because everyone loves to hate on VB6...
None of the comments have picked up on tB yet
lol @ that heading
7:18 PM
> There is, however, no word on how much it would cost to ensure it stayed dead.
> everyone loves to hate on VB6
give me VB6 over javascript any day of the week...
> Bring your VB projects to 21th [sic] century
that was a bit mean of them - he's not a native-English speaker
on the comments:
> All it really lacked was proper inheritance, strongly typed generics and the option to base collections at index zero instead of one.
so he's wrong on the last point, and the first 2 are/will be added by tB :-)
I just read all the current comments, quite surprising - yeah there are a few haters but also a lot of love / nostalgia and even some current VB6 devs in there.
8:04 PM
just read them all too :) ...yeah, heaters gonna hate....
8:26 PM
MsgBox "On accepte avec les larmes aux yeux."
question is reopened btw
wah already
@BigBen you're on it?
As in writing an answer?
8:28 PM
um I probs need more detail lol
Further edits to better clarify exactly what you intend the function to output wouldn't hurt, but FYI I've voted to reopen regardless. If 2 other people agree, it'll reopen (further editing to clarify puts the odds on your side!). — Mathieu Guindon 15 mins ago
basically OP wants the two sets of 20 variables as Range parameters and be able to invoke it as a UDF - that means there probably needs to be a separate function to calculate & return the intermediate a1 and a0 values, but I lack the math-fu to tell what these functions should be called lol
(I think the 20 doesn't matter, but the code should probably validate that the two ranges are the same size)
given how bored I am at regular work, maybe I can work on this
I think this can be all done with LINEST probably.
Are you sure you aren't reinventing the LINEST function? — BigBen 59 secs ago
8:55 PM
damn that i tripped me up
For Each i In ... deserves a RD inspection
Like seriously
> BAD DUCKY! Use i only if you must, and when you do, only in a For...Next loop.
The mapped value could be the cell.Value though, or just Empty, or whatever, right.
hm that edit was uncalled for was it.. I just took OP's dict.Add i, i and inferred they meant to have the cell reference in the dictionary.. could be either way lol
Yeah hard to know but at least the edit gets to OP's problem.
9:00 PM
@MathieuGuindon probably should allow j too, for one level of nesting. k, not so much...
heh, bonus points if teh duck can determine that j is being used for an inner loop :-)
That shouldn't be too hard, but I must not be nerd-sniped into implementing this... I extracted command classes and now the peek popup isn't showing up anymore unless it's invoked from the CE =(
Mission Failed: Nerd-snipe Mug. Retry level?
> The key is used to retrieve an individual item and is usually an integer or a string, but can be anything except an array.
@MathieuGuindon I may have undone your edit
9:19 PM
all good
@MathieuGuindon ha - that's the same trick I use... I know something needs looking at, but I don't have time right now, so I raise an issue to track it. At work, I'm even mulling adding an empty repo for a lib I know we'll need, just so I can say it's "In Progress". (n/a here of course)
@MathieuGuindon ¿Where is Duga?
makes me wonder what's a good rule when there's too many nested loops. I easily can see 2 level as sensible. is 3 too much? 4 definitely.
@this Duga went on her annual vacation. To Fiji, and she's very much enjoying the beach.
9:54 PM
Oooh... brain tickle.
@this i, j, k isn't unreasonable if you're making a 3D chess game :)
tB feature request: object / collection initalizers. Too much?
@MathieuGuindon yah, I thought i, j because rows/columns. k is probably fine too, on short loops.
depends what it looks like I think
@MathieuGuindon yep, syntax is everything...
9:58 PM
See, if we go 3 levels, I'd want to reference a named variable
@this I've seen k in the wild. It's a thing. I think it's ok.
Like Mat said, 3 dimensions.
l and beyond, hell no.

For i = l To u
  For j = 0 To Foos(i).Count
    For k = 0 To Bars(i).Count


For i = l To u
  Dim Foo As Foo
  Set Foo = Foos(i)
  For j = 0 To Foo.Count
    Dim Bar As Bar
    Set Bar = Bars(j)
    For k = 0 To Bar.Count
@mansellan what if we had a CodeMetricInspectionBase that would issue inspection results / warnings based on code metrics?

Procedure 'DoSomething' has a 'Nesting Levels' metric value of 147. Recommended value: <2.

And then there could be a setting for each "metric inspection" with default/configurable thresholds...
not sure that's much better because you still can easily make the mistake of referring to Bars(i) when it should be Bars(j)
I do worry that I might be trying to turn tB into c# :/ I don't think that's what I'm doing, because the cool thing about tB is "unmanaged / native". Just trying to suggest lauguage level nicities from c# 9.
@MathieuGuindon Wow - that has potential!
Even more so with CPA
10:03 PM
@this it's better because you kinda feel the urge to extract the body into its own scope :)
Just to point out, 147 probably means your nesting will wrap around because of >64 levels and limitation of 1024 character per line
@this ROFL!!!
I had Cyclomatic Complexity for the metric in the draft lol
Tried to ping Simon about Duga, but too old for auto-complete. Anyone remember his nick?
10:07 PM
@MathieuGuindon yeah, it's easier to pass as a parameter, which also helps with readability, too. By that reasoning, you could collapse all nested loops into a single level of loop.
the nesting becomes implicit then
yes and you can argue it's less readable because you now have 3 procedures each doing loops.
that is the part where LINQ start to look better.
found it
@SimonForsberg Duga seems to be taking a break
10:14 PM
if there's no auto-complete, I believe the user doesn't get a notification
unfortunately both Vogel and I have lost power-ping abilities now
Over in chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/16134/…, where Simon regularly dwells, Duga works just fine.
@MathieuGuindon maybe now that we're past 666, smortscreen will smarten up
@M.Doerner Hook issue here
@MathieuGuindon hmm, #til
10:24 PM
Since yesterday 11PM, we get 500 responses from Duga.
The only two differences I can see between the RD hook and my personal Advent of Code 2020 hook, which is working fine, is the room id and the fact that there is a secret set for RD.
I have pinged Simon on the webhook issue.
With that, TTGTB.
@this did you see the earlier chat about RadBasic?
Would love to get your perspective
I think you left before the publicity it got
Not sure how well known The Register is in the US (seems to get a bunch of traffic, but US is a lot bigger than UK) - in the UK most techs know / read it.
10:45 PM
I occasionally read The Register.
@BigBen I'm not in any way affiliated, but I think I must have read it for at least 10 years. It's kinda the tabloid of IT internet news - easily digestible and lots of pictures. I tried Reddit and Slashdot, but they take concentration. The Reg is like an "IT snack".
And they seem to catch most relevant trends. Was surprised they found RadBasic - I think they maybe watch Kickstarter.
11:20 PM
lots of pictures is putting it lightly
@BigBen Not for me - Firefox with many blockers of various types :-)
Pics for the story still come through, but the ad spots are just whitespace.
In their defense, I've seen much worse adtech on mainstream news sites.
Targeted ads are ruining the internet.
Hey @IvenBach
How goes it?
I know about Register and don't read it regularly... sometime find it offputting because of their propensity to slant things for the outrage clickbaits. Haven't read through RadBasic yet
@this Yep, unbiased is not their thing.
11:32 PM
Currently messing around with a bit of python for editing excel files.
@this But that's.. normal? Closest I've seen to unbiased is the BBC (they have a charter), but even they lean noticeably to the left.
@IvenBach Careful. Pythons are constriction predators. They will lie in wait until you are least suspecting, and then strangle all your hopes and dreams. They Excel at that.
It's mainly for me to go outside my Excel/VBA-landia/C# comfort zone and see something new.
I'm a bit surprised by my ability to figure out what I have so far.
Don't be. You've grown.
I hope so.
All the effort and frustration to push past WTF-is-this confusion has been a constant companion the last couple years.
Remember: every language is a different abstraction around the same thing. Underneath it all, it's 1s and 0s. And you've learnt a path into that. The others are not so different.
11:46 PM
I still attribute a lot of progress I've made to the help everyone has offered here.
^^ That was a big step I had to make.
Everyone gets help from somewhere or other. Inventions are rare.
Still don't really understand all the bits, but I know enough to know where to look for what I haven't yet learned.
> Use the search.
@IvenBach That's what we all do - you're at max level!
I really want to outgrow just the Excel-jockey stuff I do.
Everything else is "tricks" - you've learnt the secret.
11:50 PM
Poking around with python is showing me I can probably hack it together.
You can
I want to learn more algorithm and actually understand BigO notation at a lower level.
Heh... I have a book on notation, from a university course I bailed on.
Haven't needed it yet, other than a lift-elevator pitch
It sounds like you could pitch for non-Excel jobs (caveat, I'm not in SoCal)
Just when I see the list of reqs for dev work: SQL, Restful API, Django, Perl, Jenikins, ...
The vast majority is for things I don't know and haven't even touched.
Oh, they're shopping lists...
They don't expect to get them all.
11:58 PM
I don't even really feel entirely comfortable listing C# since half the time I lean heavily on the RD code base to know what to do.
Wait, wut?
Excel, VBA, git. I've got those 3 understood.
Open source is the most in-demand resume skill out there
I've not made any programs myself.

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