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12:01 AM
[rubberduck-vba/Rubberduck] 1 opened issue. 4 issue comments.
[Zomis/FactorioMods] 1 opened issue. 5 issue comments.
[Minesweeper] Games Played: 114, Bombs Used: 74, Moves Performed: 15274, New Users: 4
3 hours later…
3:26 AM
5 hours later…
8:10 AM
@puzzlepiece87 memories made. Found out my daughter doesn’t like big hairy dudes. She’s afraid of Chewbacca...
Exhausted Iven is ready for bed.<\iven>
8:27 AM
@PeterMTaylor Open Source @ Stack Exchange, they like questions like that. Tags [copyright], [licensing], etc.
4 hours later…
12:50 PM
@PeterMTaylor GitHub has full legal rights to do this.
1) We gave consent when we created the account.
NVM, reading the article, it's not that kind of backup. But point 1 still applies.
1:39 PM
@IvenBach Well, he kind of does have a reputation for ripping people's arms off.
@IvenBach visualizes Iven in his RD shirt, jumping for popcorn. Gets a good chuckle.
OK, I'm all ready to start a CR question on my Angular app.
2:46 PM
Hi all. Just got back to VBA after a bit of a hiatus. But now when I start VBA, RD says it threw an unexpected exception and to check the log. This happens in all MSO apps. I checked Process Explorer for sneaky instances of MS apps or RD (like automation), but there are none. Where is the log is says to check..? Any suggestions..?
did you update to latest?
log would be in %APPDATA%\Rubberduck, IIRC
No, there have been no updates or changes to MSO or RD. Oh...this isn't the usual case of conflicting duplicate Autosave workbooks...that I know how to deal with.
And it happens in Word and Access too anyways.
Ok thx I'll check the log.
not sure which build you are on, though
Ok weird, last time the log was touched is 2019-10-31. Current attempts to start RD aren't writing anything new to the log.
Oh also...I failed to mention that RD still seems to load correctly.
I'm on Probably a bit behind.
try the latest
2:56 PM
Anything to be aware of ahead of time before I update..? Any settings to save etc..?
3:06 PM
@spinjector Not guaranteed, but I'm 99.99% sure that an update to the latest pre-release build will keep all settings. There are some new ones since 2.2 (current build is, after all!), so I'd suggest taking screen shots of your current settings, then taking a wander through the new settings. Make sure nothing has changed, tweak the new ones to your desires
@spinjector Oh, and, welcome back!! It's good to see Max in the room again
6 messages moved to ­Trash
@spinjector updating RD never overwrites your settings =)
@Hosch250 good call
latest " stable" is, the announcement is here
3:22 PM
@MathieuGuindon at least not intentionally. ;)
not anymore anyway =)
@spinjector FYI we're in the final preps for releasing v2.5.0, so you might want to update to the latest pre-release instead of 2.4.1
3:35 PM
@FreeMan haha thanks =-) the company i work for is being sold, and my work is all upside down and i've been doing more SQL than VBA, to export sales & financial history for the new company...
@spinjector Not yours too :(
kids must be playing the musical selling chairs
yep, my cheese has moved...
yes in a way... family owned company... patriarch passed away, kids started running it into the ground, more interested in the short-term money than actually working to keep it healthy & profitable in the long run...
so onwards & upwards, trying to find another job as the MSO & VBA guru, hopefully with SQL too...
ok i have the 2.4.1 installer, so i just run that to install over the existing one..?
@this Mine was owner was retiring. Don't think he had any kids to give it to.
Good thing was, though, he kept it out of the hands of the venture capitalists and competitors who just wanted our product off the market.
It's still in a pretty good position. I got out of it, though, before the real merger started to integrate them.
that sucks... i worked for Corel when they bought InfoCentral for the sole purpose of killing it in favor of their extensively hard-sucking address book turd... people were calling for support with exploding heads because their entire lives were neck-deep in IC...
3:48 PM
LOL. Yeah, I hate companies like that.
At least MS, when they buy something now, typically ends up keeping it around at least for a while.
Thinking of Wunderlist (which got rewritten as MS Todo with basically the same UI) and Newtonsoft Json (which got rewritten and integrated directly into .NET as System.Text.Json).
And GitHub is actually expanding in quite some awesome ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually shut down Azure DevOps in support of it.
@MathieuGuindon This isn't a good answer, but I don't think it's a non-answer:
A: Flashcard Website

Alex LauranI like that the code is really readable and clean, can't wait to see more updates

Any thoughts?
I'm not as far ahead as all that, i barely even have a handle on Git, lol... but i probably should since i'm looking at programming jobs too... thing is i've never worked in a pure programming environment tho....
I mean, it does say "the code is [...] readable and clean"
@MathieuGuindon in case you dying to close a dupe:
Q: Excel VBA to create an array from non adjacent ranges

JudeDI couldn't quite find the answer to my question, but if there is another post I am missing, please, let me know. I am trying to add values to a dynamic array using range.value. The problem is that the cells I want to add to the array are not adjacent/contiguous. The array is created but it is onl...

@spinjector Wouldn't be a bad idea.
3:55 PM
Lots of experts here who can help you.
I think everyone in this chat knows Git better than the average dev, LOL.
hmmm i've been saying for a year now i need to start digging into RD to see if i can contribute, perhaps i should do that and to learn git at the same time...
Yeah, you can't do that without learning some Git :)
oh, today's news here - something blitzed my current install of RD, couldn't install and couldn't uninstall any version, so i let the windows programs window clear it out, then reinstalled my current version with the intention of uninstalling it right away so 2.4.1 could go in, but then i found the current version is working fine again, even the log file is getting updated...
so i dunno lol
i'll go ahead with the 241
@spinjector Yup
@BigBen the range isn't contiguous, OP doesn't want a 2D array there... They're in for a little surprise otherwise
4:04 PM
@Hosch250 I wouldn't say "everyone". But we're trying!
@MathieuGuindon I know it's not continuous but it does sound like OP wants a 2D array...
sorry I missed the title lol - dupe-closed now
You're the best :)
@Hosch250 I would have converted it to a comment, but Vogel already deleted it. Back when 200 was a mod, that would have probably flown as a "poor answer"
Vogel would've converted it too, I see, but the guy didn't have enough rep.
Or can mods override that?
4:10 PM
@Hosch250 I was wondering that.. ADO is much more than a repo manager though, GH would need a lot of build-out to replicate it all
@mansellan Yeah, it has a lot more permissions and build scripts and stuff.
@Hosch250 yes
But, some of that is coming to GH.
@MathieuGuindon Cool.
FWIW, it hink Azure DevOps ahs too much complexity
for example the permission system is nightmarish to work with
Yeah, I know.
The only thing I really like there is the build script system.
4:11 PM
I've still yet to figure out how to give my people proper access
But even that is going the way of no-UI, all-YAML.
I have a horrid workaround but ... bleh
I get the reasoning for making it no-UI. YAML? I'll have yams instead, thanks.
I liked the UI, since I never know what names to use, and stuff.
I don't mind having a UI as it is convenient when I just want to get started quickly without figuring out all the syntax
but it's trivial to have UI script it out
@this I love the fact that you can check build scripts into the repo, and I don't mind YAML
4:13 PM
and it usually make for better example, too
for a lot of it, you can use the UI and then just copy/tweak the genned yaml
@mansellan Me either. It's no worse than JSON. It's just knowing what names to use and stuff.
@mansellan That's what I'd do.
but its a shame it can't roundtrip so you get a UI for the yaml. maybe that'll come later.
UI + no scripting = dumb ass; no UI + scripting = PITA; UI + scripting = win. Really that simple.
4:16 PM
@M.Doerner sorry I haven't finished your VB6 PR yet, life getting in the way :-(
At work, might be going to Kubenetes soon - we pretty much decoupled from Service Fabric when we went to Core 3
Just got to sell the idea to the boss
I have to get a Linux box so I can run Docker.
Or at least an external drive.
install vBox and then Ubuntu in a guest vm...
@spinjector I can't.
i adore vBox
I don't have virtualization on Windows 10 (non-Pro).
I forgot to get that when I bought my computer.
Otherwise, I'd just run Docker for Windows.
And I don't have enough drive room to do a dual boot without pushing it pretty close to the limits on both systems.
So, external drive it is, I guess.
4:25 PM
Ok so flip it... ghost that Win10 into a vdi on a backup drive, then wipe the primary drive, install ubuntu, then vBox, then put the Win10 in a vm... =-)
LOL, that would work.
I really should just switch to Ubuntu.
And drop Windows.
i think once win7 gets far enough along, i'm switch entirely to Ubuntu... i despise win10 with the fire of a million angry trump voters...
10 isn't bad, IMO.
7 is terrible, though (for the couple hours I used it).
i miss xp
4:28 PM
xp was so easy
I miss 98
I had to use XP and IE6 when for proctored exams in college.
of course my xp was hacked like crazy with WinLite...
I was always worried the site wouldn't work or it would time out because the systems were so old and slow.
And of course, that just ate at my time limit on the exam...
XP was a terrible, horrible, no-good, very-bad experience for me.
user image
ah, the memories.
4:31 PM
Now, what do I do the rest of the day?
I might have a client job coming up. They requested a formal quote on the PoC I did for them.
The informal quote was given as 1 week (not by me, but sounds about right).
IE has been dead to me for like 20 years... except when i build SHDocVw into an app, lol...
yes i should get back to what i was doing: learning the CustomXMLPart object in workbooks...
later gators...
See you!
@skiwi tabs++
hey, the References nodes in 2.4.1 are a nice touch... but what's in mean when some are black and some grayed out..?
@this It's like a happy reminder when you're on an XP VM and get to play until things respond!
Can you remove the grayed out ones? They might be the "unused" ones.
If you can't remove them, they might be the "required" ones.
4:41 PM
holy cow... i just discovered the new references window... <insert daffy duck jaw drop here>
See, that's what happens when you don't update. ;-)
Unlike Microsoft, we provide useful enhancements in the updates!
ok the gray ones are definitely used in the project... like VBIDE and ms-regex...
see even the main one VBA is grayed out...
actually all of them in Excel are grayed out, but if i jump over to Access, about 20 of 25 are grayed out, the other 5 are black...
that most likely implies those are unused
and you can safely remove them
nope. i use msforms, vbide, regex, etc, just removed a couple, re-added them, and they're still gray, in fact, now they've all turned gray, none are black any more...
4:56 PM
@Hosch250 window[0].tabs == 2246
1 tab here.
What can you do with one tab?
Talk in this room.
Now imagine what you can do with 2246 tabs
Actually, it's 2247 already now
You can only be in one at a time.
4:59 PM
@skiwi talk to 2245 other groups!!!
So, you still can't do any more, and possibly less because your computer is slower.
My Firefox on idle
Mm actually CPU dropped back to 5-10% now
Just think of that 22.3% CPU you could be using to do something else!
@IvenBach Hahaha, I assume she isn't into Star Wars generally either? :P
5:04 PM
@MathieuGuindon I thought about converting it to a comment and then decided that I'd delete that as a comment
Thanks either way, @Vogel612.
@puzzlepiece87 She likes it. The fact he's 6'-8" tall in person is a bit intimidating to a small child. "But he's a bad guy." was her reasoning.
iirc the greyed out refs are locked
5:22 PM
@Vogel612 fair enough =)
@spinjector IIRC the nodes are usable before identifier references are fully resolved, so nodes might only turn gray after that's completed.
@mansellan on one hand I like non-actionable nodes being grayed out. On the other hand I'd kind of expect libs I'm not using to show up grayed out too... that's probably an interesting question to ask on UX.SE
@MathieuGuindon Yeah... I'm wondering if normal font but with a padlock glyph would be a better choice
@MathieuGuindon What you could do is just show a lock icon next to them and disable the Remove button?
@mansellan Heh, beat me to it.
5:38 PM
@IvenBach TIL Chewbacca is a bad guy xD
@IvenBach Disturbing characteristics are beginning to show...
Does she like Palpatine?
5:52 PM
Doubt it.
6:03 PM
I don't know whether to be relieved or disappointed.
6:24 PM
I say she's smart for not falling for Strap Wars baloney
6:43 PM
@this Strap Wars? Sounds like a very dirty joke.
@Hosch250 well, i know what i'm misspelling from now on
that's up there with pet quincineras
I'm sorta glad I didn't let myself see the high quality light saber. My inner nerd would have screamed "All your saberz are belong 2 me!" and rationality would have went out the window.
@IvenBach TIL that you can open the File Explorer to a folder, then type "cmd" in the path and it opens the command prompt to that.
@Hosch250 IrmaGourd. That is sweet. TYVM for sharing that. Very helpful indeed.
Q: Gray-out conundrum

Mathieu GuindonAs we're approaching the release date for v2.5.0 of Rubberduck (an open-source VBIDE add-in), we're facing a bit of a dilemma regarding a specific type of tree nodes in one of our toolwindows: The idea is to show library/project references in the treeview, and somehow convey whether a particul...

when in doubt, ask Stack Exchange
@mansellan @Hosch250 we are showing a padlock icon for the locked-in refs
7:03 PM
one way could be to use italics
@MathieuGuindon why are they greyed out then?
because they're not actionnable would be my guess
It's the disabled versus not-used.
We are using the disabled-gray-out. But our users are thinking not-used-gray-out.
I'd keep disabled as the standing best-practice is (greying it out)
not actionable as italicized while greyed out not in use seems to be standard across most software, which allows the use of both (greyed-italicized)
7:06 PM
And for unused I'd use something else (like italics and yellow undersquiggles)
maybe we could add "(not used)" to the node text when applicable?
ugh. and introduce a new resource key
we want the unused state to prompt action, so it should be clearly different from disabled and normal
so the question becomes, how to make users reading disabled nodes as not in use to no longer read them that way
we could reuse the RD toolbar resource key and have each node say "({0} references)"
but then that feels bloated
well, the semantic point is that you cannot make a person not read something; unless you have a grouping that says "not in use (4)" and is collapsed and a group that says "in use (1)" which is expanded, where the IDE moves items, you don't have a way to not make the user read it wihtout them explicitly digging4
maybe a tooltip would be best then
one thing that makes me wonder, is why stdole and office libraries are grayed-out in an empty project. they're not locked, and they're not in use AFAICT.
7:14 PM
@this i'm jumping on that bandwagon, as it seems like a simpler approach. not actionable italicized. yo ucan't make someone not read, but you can make a visible difference where they will need to know something about layout
might be because they're dependencies of the Excel lib
I'd definitely go with italics over bold
@MathieuGuindon it's been the default for so long but you're correct. It's not necessarily used.
bold for currently in use, greyed out for not currently in use, greyed & italicized for not in use and not actionable
interesting: "find all references" is disabled for stdole and Office libs
so they should be disabled+italic?
@MathieuGuindon inherently, everything would be a reference so that doesn't feel correct
@MathieuGuindon yes. rather than 0/1, it's -1, 0, 1
7:17 PM
oh, I need to correct myself....
stdole is the one that is commonly included by default in all hosts that I know of
However, Access doesn't have Office by default whereas Excel apparently does
it can be safely removed though (but we're not allowing it)
wait we are allowing it, but only from the add/remove refs dialog
hm why is the "remove" context command disabled then
7:58 PM
so... i can download Brave from work, but i can't download RD... that makes sense?
^^ logically you'll get more benefit from a distracting movie than an educational duck.
8:16 PM
LOL, meant the browswer, but the movie would be pretty solid, too
"what'd you do today" 'watched a lady get turned into a bear and hang out with her daughter'
@IvenBach i take it you saw merida at disney? lol
@Cyril #TIL there's a browser named brave.
the javascript guy made it; was trying it out to see if it's better than trying to configure ublock origin and privacy badger on chrome
and on that note, taking car to the shop to get a chip filled (warranty = free) then home to play some RDO before i have to pick up the kids from daycare
have a good weekend folks!
Hmm, I definitely think that greyed-out (no other adornements) should mean unused - that seems to be idiomatic to me - e.g. unused procedures in VS get dimmed (is that R#?)
@Cyril Merida? I had to look that up. Nope. Arora, Jasmine, Daisy Duck, Clarice.
8:26 PM
@mansellan R#, but VS dims other unused code.
For example, it'll dim a local variable.
It's pretty standard in the coding world that dimmed means unused.
Aside: it'd be great if we could split the References node with subcategories - Libraries, Controls and Declares
Declares possibly futher split by lib name
hm. Declares are in modules.
Yes, it would need the parse results
What UX would there be around the controls?
add events?
not sure I follow - the References really just be a one stop shop to see what external dependencies you have.
Controls may be display only, no actions
8:34 PM
the thing is that there could be helluva lots of controls
what if there's an Access form with 100 controls?
what would I do with such list?
Oh, not thinking of listing all instances, just the types
Oh, you want "Types used in this project"
although "go to references" would be a nice action
See everywhere you have a TextBox, for example
I can see why that'd be useful. Few times we've had to deal with some stupid legacy activeX control that nobody should be using anymore so it was a fun scavenger hunt....
In VS (especially with the SDK format) I can see at a glance what I'm depending on
by category
Unrelated: is it worth raising issues for stuff that needs AvalonEdit, or should I just suggest it here?
@this Conceptually, a control is just a type from a COM library. We list DLLs under references, but not OCXs, even though they're different flavours of the same tech.
Granted, they're added in different ways, but still.
9:07 PM
@mansellan vanilla-VS also dims redundant casts
@MathieuGuindon I am very confused about this discussion regarding the reference nodes in the CE.
We grey them out exactly when they are not used.
that doesn't appear to be the case
Can you give an example?
What is in the code?
here stdole, Office, and Scripting aren't used/referenced
it's a brand new empty project with a reference to scripting runtime (reparsed)
Hm, then scripting should be greyed out as well.
9:10 PM
Wait a minute - shouldn't Scripting be dimmed?
hence the confusion
the more I look at it, the less I know how it works
For me, it actually is in a new workbook.
I'm running .5170, and after the initial parse of an empty workbook, VBA and Excel are black, stdole and Office are greyed out
parse again, now everything is greyed out
@M.Doerner I didn't follow that. Rephrase?
@MathieuGuindon Based on the reparse, this sounds like a bug to me
add scripting library -> black
parse again -> grey
9:12 PM
I have just opened a new workbook and everything is greyed out.
so yeah looks like there's a bug there
The issue may be that when adding a new reference it needs another parse to know it's not yet used
(though, I thought ARR dialog does a parse on close?)
unused and removable references should be an inspection too if they're not already?
Does the reference dialog just add a new node to the CE?
I believe the CE decides what nodes to create based on what the project refs are
the reference dialog just adds/removes project refs
(and IIRC changing refs triggers a reparse, which would trigger a repaint of the CE)
9:14 PM
right - that's how it's supposed to communicate changes to CE
there's certainly a VBE event for add/remove refs
but surely, by that time, it already knows that a newly added ref is not used
@MathieuGuindon check for a easter egg Comintern may have put in ChaoticBehavior
9:15 PM
@mansellan I think we're bypassing it though, and getting that info from the typelibs API
ah ok
even if we were doing it from the typelib API, isn't it supposed to reparse?
It reparses
also, it'd be interesting to know if it fires when an OCX is first used
OCX is weird.
9:16 PM
We just get the correct visibility on the second reparse, which is not right.
@this node.IsEnabled = (new Random().NextDouble() < 0.5);
@this what isn't in our domain?
when you add a new OCX, it does add a reference and I assume it fires the standard ref added event.
but you can remove it and still use it
I think there is something missing in the CE's cleanup task at the change to REady.
@this uh, wut?
9:17 PM
in which case, we have no way of knowing from refs alone whether there's OCX used.
the enabled/disabled state of the "show all refs" context command is a bit puzzling too
@this I wonder if that's because OCXs are also COM DLLs, and you can use them as such so long as they're referenced (from standard modules say). But forms also ref them directly for their control types...
(guessing, untested)
I don't know how to explain it. It's kind of super-secret late-binding, is what I say
Magic. Got it.
To sum it up, I think the only thing that is surprising about the greying out behaviour of the references in the CE is the bug that freshly added references show as not greyed out initially.
9:21 PM
There's still the matter of the unused references looking the same as the locked references, though. Granted, they have different icons but I have to squint a bit to see it's a padlock so...
@M.Doerner there are two pretty reasonable user expectations about greyed-out nodes: 1) actionnable nodes are black, non-actionnable nodes are grey (current intended behavior), and 2) unused reference nodes (i.e. actionnable) are grey, used refs are black. Both are defensible expectations, and they're contradicting.
Not sure they are contradicting. With 2), an action is "Remove unused reference", at which point it disappears.
Alleviating 1)
but how would I know that from looking at CE?
The currently implemented behaviour actually is 2).
@this I don't follow sorry?
9:26 PM
hm, VBA and Excel being greyed-out points to intended behavior being 1)
or that's the bug?
Basically, if it's used, you can't remove it. Hence it's "disabled" and we gray it out.
No, they are not greyed out if you actually use them.
But a lot of programmers take grayed out to mean "unused--clean this up."
9:27 PM
You would expect a workbook to reference it, but we currently have no idea that is the case.
Anyway, TTQW.
iPhone restore worked finally, but now I need my coworker to come sign into his apple account.
@M.Doerner "to reference them" - what is "them" sorry?
Just add anything using a range to your project and Excel will not be greyed out anymore.
the Excel library
but we do know whether the reference is locked.
and that doesn't need to be used. In which case, it could just stay black always
9:28 PM
ah ok, and we can't detect external usage atm
them should have been it and actually written out.
It is just implemented to consider only the references actually made for greying out.
@M.Doerner oooooh
@M.Doerner while you're here - are you in a hurry to get that VB6 PR merged? If not I'd like to finish my review on Monday's commute.
like, because ThisWorkbook isn't a Workbook, we don't know that Excel.Workbook is in use
I think we just need to make the graying out logic to skip any locked references, then that UX problem goes away.
9:30 PM
As soon as you use Debug.Print or any other ting from the VBA library, it will also stop to be greyed out.
@mansellan I am not in a hurry at all.
ok cool
Tomorrow, I will attend a wedding. So, I will probably not be able to do anything till Monday anyway.
@this good point
I think we actually loose information.
9:33 PM
Granted but what can you do with a locked reference that's not used?
Stare at it intently?
If you know that your project does not actually use the Excel library, you are safe to port it into any VBA host.
starred because funny. But yes, max has a decent comeback :-)
Granted. In which case, we still have to somehow differeniate a locked reference from unused reference. Icons isn't enough.
On the other hand, if we count implicit supertypes as references, you will not be able to see that anyway.
We could put unused locked refs in brackets?
9:35 PM
@this Why is a padlock icon not enough?
actually it is yes. greyed but padlocked.
In my case, at least, I have to squint a bit to realize it's a lock
@this yeah... we had some chat about the padlock icon, but i think its still not right.
It needs to be as small and high-contrast as possible
I think it can be done in pure black, 5x3 pixels
@IvenBach thanks for the pic; that one had me confused. Was thinking silence of the lambs
Like “damn, disney really does own it all”
@mansellan Just tried in MsPaint. It can't.
9:43 PM
@Cyril what is your impressions of brave?
5 wide by 7 high is the best I could do
fwiw, when I think of the conjunction of "Greyed out" and "Non-actionable", I think of action targets - buttons, menu items. In on-screen items (lists, code), I don't automatically think greyed = non-actionable.
greyed-out can mean two things: 1) it's redundant and can be safely removed, or 2) it's disabled and can't be interacted with
and both are reasonable expectations to me
but you can't directly remove a greyed list item. you have to interact with it (e.g. right-click), at which point the menu item is either greyed on just not there.
It's the difference between "immediate action" and "secondary action"
greyed to me just means "nothing useful here"
buttons and menu items are first-order - when you click them you expect something to happen, so greying out means "it won't".
list items are second-order, you have to choose an action for them
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