Hub of Reason

Cerberus

1:34 AM

Morning!

I'm going to browse the questions and see what all this atheism fuss is all about.

Borror0

2:11 AM

Share with us what you find

@Vitaly Suffering from MoR withdrawal

Vitaly

2:35 AM

“Have you yourself proven that black holes exist? If not, then you're taking faith in the scientific community.” —Farseeker, in comments

Borror0

I think that's a valid point, to an extent

Vitaly

No, it's not.

Borror0

I'd phrase it as “Have you yourself taken the time to verify that black holes exist? If not, then you're taking faith in the scientific community rather than concluding from the available evidence.”

Vitaly

Have you yourself proven = Have you yourself composed a proof

Isn't it freaking enough to read an existing valid proof and understand it and check that there are no errors?

Borror0

@Vitaly Read above. I agree. Hence my use of "to a certain extent"

Vitaly

2:39 AM

that extent must be 1 on a scale of 1 to 1,000,000 then

Borror0

I meant that I agree with the point he was trying to articulate, not the one he made

Vitaly

How do you know he was trying to articulate the point as you've formulated?

I like my gravatar. :3

though the lambda is overused, but oh well

Borror0

Yours is oddly familiar to @Yasir's, and you're both Russian. Doom.

Vitaly

Mine is a mix of the lambda and the atheist symbol.

His is a lambda with shrooms.

Powned.

Yasir Arsanukaev

moin dewds

Vitaly

2:42 AM

Hi @YasirArsanukaev

Borror0

@Vitaly interpretive charity

Vitaly

lol

Yasir Arsanukaev

Borror0

6

Q: How do atheists deal with mortality and death?

There are a lot of people who I suspect are not atheists simply because they don't like the idea of dying and then never existing again. I remember that when I was investigating religion and atheism, I at first didn't want to be an atheist for the same reason. Even after I reluctantly accepted th...

Am I the only one who realizes this is a subjective question?

It should at least be made CW

Cerberus

3:20 AM

Yeah it is very subjective as it is presented there.

What if he asked "what are the standard arguments that atheists use to counter the depressing feeling that most people get when they first realize that there is nothing after death?"?

Borror0

@Vitaly Two new MoR chapters up

@Cerberus You'd have to take that a notch higher and limit yourself to one argument. Then, perhaps.

Vitaly

@Borror0 Good. :)

Borror0

"Currently visiting Oxford to research Harry's background in more detail" lol

Borror0

3:38 AM

OMG, the list line of the second chapter is awesome

But to LessWrong readers only

Vitaly

Map–territory relation

The map–territory relation describes the relationship between an object and a representation of that object, as in the relation between a geographical territory and a map of it. Polish-American scientist and philosopher Alfred Korzybski remarked that "the map is not the territory," encapsulating his view that an abstraction derived from something, or a reaction to it, is not the thing itself. For example, the pain from a stone falling on one's foot is not the actual stone, it's one's perception of the stone; one's opinion of a politician, favorable or unfavorable, is not that person; and s...

Borror0

I had not realized the semblance to "ceci n'est pas une pipe" but it's true

Yudkowsky is a pomo!

Vitaly

I love the second sentence of the 67th chapter.

Borror0

"The presence of so many students would stabilize the corridors for a time, by dint of constant observation"?

Vitaly

ya

Borror0

3:47 AM

I like "Even after eight centuries, Hogwarts was still a little shy about changing in front of people." much better

Vitaly

Isn't it just wordplay?

Borror0

yes, but it's cute

Vitaly

Ah, I tend to like allusions more

Especially when it's to quantum mechanics

Borror0

I didn't catch it until after you said you liked it

Vitaly

I am still wondering what the book was

but I am prolonging my reading of the 67th chapter

so IDK if it's there

I like the reference to London meetup as well

Borror0

4:14 AM

The Harry and Hermy conflicts are so adorable

Vitaly

so

I have a question

is there any hidden meaning in spelling Calv*ria as both Calvaria and Calveria?

Cerberus

4:33 AM

Woof.

The map-territory relation is indeed an important concept.

Because we often do not think about it, we sometimes get into semantic trouble.

Any progress on the wheat implication?

Vitaly

@Cerberus yeah, you often don't think about it. Very well put! ;P

Cerberus

@Vitaly: Wow, your ping really scared me, it is very quiet here, haha.

Vitaly

@Cerberus No, I hope to resolve the question by stumbling upon something related. It's not that urgent.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: I feel like a believer in God in a conversation with an atheist who is depressed because he just found out God does not exist: I am still not getting your wheat problem, and I am blissfully free of cares.

Vitaly

lol

Cerberus

4:41 AM

Are many of the guys on atheism.se religious?

Vitaly

I can remember 4 offhand.

Cerberus

Okay that is still more than might be expected.

What draws them?

Do they try to convert?

Borror0

@Cerberus Some are genuinely curious, others are trolls.

Cerberus

Ah ok.

Are the trolls any fun?

Vitaly

When they're in the pictures I posted here, yes.

Cerberus

4:44 AM

Pictures? Let me see...

Vitaly

Jan 3 at 6:03, by Vitaly

Borror0

@Cerberus RE democratic religion: such a group couldn't logically exist. It would have to be founded on the principle that "the majority is always right" at which point you can't question the majority (ie it would be illogical to do so) because it is always right. Moreover, if Christianity dropped its supernatural claims, it would become a moral philosophy. It wouldn't be a religion. That's why supernatural claims are an essential part of a religion.

Cerberus

@Vitaly: Ha, a delightful picture... are those real quotes from the atheism questions?

Borror0

@Cerberus Let me use mod tool to dig up the most downvoted answers...

Vitaly

Yes, his comments, and answers, give or take a few exclamation marks.

Borror0

4:48 AM

-11

A: How can I avoid defending the theory of evolution?

Proving that God exists is very logical. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI

-10

A: Are atheists more moral than Christians or other religions?

If you look at the public school system since religion has been removed, you have clear evidence that morality (and the quality of the education itself I might add) tends to go in the toilet as faith is abandoned.

-9

A: Would scripture encoded in mathematical constants constitute strong evidence for supernatural origin?

No. They will not believe. To do so would mean they'd have to answer to the God of the Bible--and that is inconceivable. Luke 16:30-1 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the pro...

-7

A: What is the proven fact to support the argumentation that God does NOT exist?

There is no proof either way. The Bible agrees with this: ... he that cometh to God must believe (Hebrews 11:6) The Bible makes no effort to prove itself, it simply states: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Psalm 14:1) Then it becomes a question of which option makes ...

I think you get the point :)

Cerberus

@Borror0: What if the majority is not always right, it is just an organic process of different people having differently weighted votes, and some shamans that could decide all kinds of things about the tenets too? I do agree that some beliefs about the supernatural must reasonably be part of any religion.

@Vitaly: Thanks! That Youtube video is pretty grand.

Vitaly

???

Cerberus

Especially the part about slicing down physical objects and finding no "explanation" of the universe within.

The lowest comment has a link to a video.

The -11 comment.

Or Answer.

Vitaly

Oh, so that was to Borror0.

Borror0

You @'ed Vitaly when you meant to @ me

Cerberus

4:53 AM

Hmm did I?

As I see it, my @s seem fine?

The video was addressed to Vitaly.

I like the other answers too, by the way.

Vitaly

I don't understand. @Borror0 used his mod tools to get the most downvoted answers. He posted them here, you followed the link to the -11 “comment,” then found a link to a YouTube video there, posted by Spencer B. @Cerberus

So the thanks goes to @Borror0 — or Spencer B.

Borror0

If the shaman has *any* veto power, then it's still arguments from authority. At the end of the day, the shaman's opinion is still undebatable.

If the shaman has no say in the matter, and it's not based on a "the majority is right" fallacy, then it's not a religion: it's an assembly of people discussing their belief , voting for no apparent reason, and then leaving each having their own belief. A majority vote *can't* force someone to change his beliefs *unless* he believes the majority is always right.

Vitaly

via LessWrong vbs.tv/en-gb/newsroom/…

Cerberus

Ooohh my apologies. You were both right, as always—I looked wrong.

@Borror0: So thank you! Hehe.

@Borror0: I can see that you are tracing the power over these beliefs through the system I proposed, and that you are trying to arrive at binary values: power v. no power, believed v. rejected.

But why can't a religion be an assembly of people having somewhat related beliefs?

Borror0

5:09 AM

Because there is nothing uniting them!

Under such a broad definition of religion, an Hindu, a Shintoist, a Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew, and a Muslim could all have the same religion if they sit down and that about their respective belief.

Cerberus

Very true.

But what about Christianity and its diverse sects?

Borror0

In other words, it's not an useful definition of religion

@Cerberus Different denominations of a religion. They all share a few dogmatic traits, such as the existence of Christ and the existence of a God (ie there IS a common tread).

Cerberus

When you want to define religion such that it describes most things that we normally call religion in daily speech, you will find that it is a very difficult task, agreed?

@Borrow0: What definition do you propose?

(I don't have a good definition myself, I must say.)

Borror0

I really wish you didn't ask me to define terms before I go to bed

Cerberus

Aww I'm sorry.

Can I ask you a quick question on French?

You speak it, right?

Borror0

5:17 AM

that is much easier

Fluent, yes

Cerberus

How do you pronounce "un": as compared to French "saint" and English ur in "murder"?

Perhaps my question was not clear...

Vitaly

I'd like some opinions about the video when you guys finish with your French and whatnot.

Cerberus

It is late here too.

@Vitaly: I am half way through, and I like it so far.

I have it paused.

Borror0

@Cerberus It isn't

Cerberus

Not clear?

Borror0

5:19 AM

@Cerberus It's not clear. I'm not sure what you are asking.

Cerberus

OK.

Do you pronounce "un" like the "aint" in "saint"?

(I think not.)

Borror0

Not at all

Cerberus

OK.

Do you pronounce the u in "un" like the ur in English "murder"?

Borror0

When I say "un" my mouth if forming an O. When I say "saint" my mouth is wide open

Cerberus

Okay.

Borror0

5:22 AM

un is very guttural

Cerberus

Yeah ok, but that is caused by the n, right?

Borror0

And, no, not like like murder but closer than from saint

Cerberus

Hmm ok.

Borror0

Since ur is more guttural

Cerberus

Oh I was referring to British pronunciation.

Sorry.

Borror0

5:23 AM

I'm Canadian

Cerberus

Yeah I wasn't thinking.

So what about British murder?

Borror0

Though, my English accent is an amalgam of Canadian and American accent

Cerberus

I still have no clue about the difference. I asked a Canadian in a bar last week, he couldn't explain.

Borror0

@Cerberus I can't say I see a similitude between them. I think the American ur was clsoer, actually

Cerberus

Hmm... any other French word, but one that has no u?

Well perhaps this is an impossible question. You should go to bed.

Borror0

5:26 AM

un sounds perhaps the closest "ooooommmmm" in English

Cerberus

Hmm, so is that close to French "on"?

Borror0

Close, but different

Cerberus

OK.

I will listen to it on Forvo again.

Borror0

With un, your lips are more closed

To say un, you have to make an O with your lips and push air through your throat

With on, your mouth is much more open but it's the say way to push air in through your throat (or at least close enough that I can't tell them apart)

Cerberus

Hmm...

I have a feeling that there might be two ways to pronounce it. Let me give you a link.

forvo.com/search-exact-match-fr/un

"un bon vin blanc" sounds slightly different from "un devoir"

Borror0

5:31 AM

Well, Canadian French and FRance French is like UK and US English

Cerberus

On Forvo I mean.

Borror0

There's a difference in pronunciation

Cerberus

Hmm right.

Borror0

So, what I'm talking about is like the guy who says "un peu"

He's from Canada

And that's obvious

likewise for "Un jour de canicule"

Cerberus

That sample is a bit unclear, well, it is very fast.

Okay let me look at the canocule

OK

So do "un canicule" and "un bon vin blanc" sound the same?

Borror0

5:34 AM

Compare to "un bon vin blanc" which is SOOO French

Cerberus

Ahhh

Borror0

They're a bit more uptight

Cerberus

Now I feel like I am getting somewhere

Borror0

How good is your listening and reading comprehension of French?

Cerberus

Well...

I am reading Ames Grises at the moment,

and I must say I am having some trouble with my vocabulary

Reading non-literature is fine most of the time

Listening, not so good

Borror0

5:37 AM

Hmmm... so, am I cruel enough to introduce you to Québec French? /evilgrin

Cerberus

I am not sure I could follow a film

No, I like such cruelty

I did hear some difference between the two samples

Borror0

We are very... non-proper?

Cerberus

Hey I know a game

You name a sample that is typical of either Q or F

And I tell you which it is.

Without peeking, of course.

Borror0

Like, rather than say "je suis" we often say "chu"

Cerberus

Hmm, but I think I have heard Frenchmen say that too?

Just as "ché pah" for "je ne sais pas"

Borror0

5:40 AM

The latter is much more common in France than here

Cerberus

Hey, does verslen exist in Canada?

Or is it verslin...

Borror0

You mean talking backward?

Cerberus

Yeah

Borror0

We have something even weirder

Cerberus

Ha!

Good.

You guys believe in God or anything?

Or is that too weird.

Borror0

5:47 AM

During the 40s and 50s, we had a period now named "la Grande noirceur" where the Duplessis gov't was very conservative and highly religious. Québec was practically under the control of the Catholic Church.

When Duplessis died in 1959, what followed is what is known as the Quiet Revolution. The province of Québec changed from a very conservative province to the most liberal place in North America. We happily threw out the church out of everything, nationalized health care, etc. Radical changes, in the form ofg nation-wide consensus. Hence the term "Quiet Revolution."

Cerberus

That sounds pretty good.

Ça sonne assez bien.

Is that correct French?

I doubt it.

Borror0

The result today is that religion is practically out of everyone's life. I have no idea how religious anyone is, other than my most immediate family. Out of all the classes I have been in from Elementary school to the end High School, I only remember one religious kid and he had a strong dislike for organized religions. "Fuck le Pape" were his words, I believe.

Cerberus

The name Duplessis does ring a bell, by the way.

That is interesting. So what about the countryside?

Borror0

I grew up with the notion that belief in god was illogical.

@Cerberus I come from a town in the middle of nowhere, with less than 30k citizens. Is that countryside enough?

Cerberus

My great-great-grandfather refused to a member of his (protestant) church anymore and walked away. No-one in my family has ever been religious since that time.

Borror0

5:51 AM

lol

Cerberus

Haha, yes, that is pretty provincial... and this town is not close to a big city?

Borror0

Over six hours away from anything in the six digits.

My grandmother is really religious by our standards. She goes to church at least once a week, and usually more! When I had my first girlfriend, she told me to "have fun and use protections." That's the actual quote.

Vitaly

@Borror0 “is that countryside enough?” That's a desert! (Speaking as someone from a megalopolis with a population of 12 million)

Cerberus

Haha, yes, that is pretty good as far as provincial goes.

Borror0

The whole province is like 8 million people... over an area three time the size of France

Cerberus

5:56 AM

In my country, you could never be more than a half-hour drive away from a 6-figure city.

Irreligion in Canada

__NOTOC__ Irreligion is common throughout all provinces and territories of Canada. Irreligious Canadians include atheists, agnostics, and humanists. The surveys may also include those who are spiritual, deists, and pantheists. In 1991, they made up 12.3 percent which, according to the 2001 census, increased to 16.2 percent. Some non-religious Canadians have formed associations, such as the Humanist Association of Canada or the Toronto Secular Alliance. In 1991, some non-religious Canadians signed a petition to remove "God" from the preamble to the Canadian Constitution. Svend Robinson, wh...

This article says that Quebec is very low on the irreligion scale.

Borror0

Netherlands is like ridiculously dense

Cerberus

Yeah, people complain about that, but I like it.

The four largest cities are all within a circle of a half-hour's radius.

Borror0

Canada could have a population in the 100,000,000 (ie over three times more populous) and be tenth of its size... and the Netherlands would still have a bigger population density.

Cerberus

Haha really, well, perhaps you should do that.

The Netherlands will be happy to accept a couple of provinces and trade them for a few million people.

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