The Sphinx's Lair - 2017-06-20 (page 2 of 3)

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3:00 PM

@Sid contact, right now, ok?

Hint 3 is very broad though. The clues and hints share common letters, and they are all contained in yellowish rectangles.

@n_palum I am telling you that user is Rubio's sock. See the similarities. :P

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

0

Q: Which number comes next in this series?

Find the logic behind this series: 5, 18, 402, 3098, 58120, ? and guess what comes next. It should be noted that it is not an standard sequence. To find the logic, you have to think out of the box and even consider individual digits of a number. Although, I don't have the answer and I may overth...

mathematics number-sequence

Gareth McCaughan

There is in fact an obvious and not quite so trivial thing that all those things in that puzzle have in common

namely redundancy

riddling riddle

each and every

enormously bigly

absolutely certain

updated and modified

etc.

3:06 PM

positive improvements

absolutely certain

What about hint 2 though?

I just had a good idea for it though

Gareth McCaughan

well, it made the title "riddling riddle"

I do think it is too broad too though

Gareth McCaughan

I'm going to guess BG's answer is not the intended one

Really? I'm kind of half sure on it

Gareth McCaughan

3:08 PM

doesn't really seem to connect with the redundancy theme

last few seem farfetched

Pretty sure "i" isn't a silly concept.

Again, hint 2. If the answer is "i", then why would -40 to 0 (or -40 to 32) be the ideal range?

Gareth McCaughan

incidentally, the lines don't all start with "I"; second starts with "My"

Because negative numbers

3:09 PM

redundancy... not seeing it lol

But there are negative numbers below -40

Yeah I know which is confusing me

It's really specific and really broad at the same timd

Things like 'i doesn't exist' make me cringe

Well it does but it isn't possible to exist

Maybe something like C=F? 0=32?

3:11 PM

@BeastlyGerbil i isn't any more non-existent than -1, 1, or anything

I don't see how hint 3 is a 'big hint'

It's just as confusing

Oh wait, I think I see what it is, and it's what Gareth said

Gareth McCaughan

there must be at least something beyond what I said, because what I said doesn't look like a solution to me...

So do you mind if I post then?

Gareth McCaughan

not at all, go ahead

3:13 PM

@Ankoganit edited

@Sid I am! (Apologies for the delay - I was in a meeting :/ )

What did Gareth say?

yeah, what?

Gareth McCaughan

I said that hint 3 in that puzzle is all about redundancy

saying the same thing in two ways

Didn't mean you've to edit @Beastly , I was merely ranting on the common misconception that i is somehow 'unreal'.

3:14 PM

Hmm

@Deusovi up for a game? that is?

Yup.

@Ankoganit yeah but what is said not true so edited

It is imaginary not non-existent

@BeastlyGerbil That comment on your answer XD

I wouldn't post an answer if I thought that there was no chance of it being correct :P

3:19 PM

yeah lmao

They disagree :P

Can we close the newest question as 'unclear what you are asking' as it doesn't actually match the picture from the site?

maybe he creatd the puzzle on the site?

No because he says he hasn't solved it

oh

3:24 PM

I think it should be closed but not sure what as

yeah

Once again raising the flag of "let's not pick on clueless new users", I don't think it needs to be closed.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the puzzle as of now.

I don't think it's a good puzzle. But I don't see any reason to close it.

Gareth McCaughan

@MikeQ if the answer is just "redundancy" then I have to say I think it's a bad question; I mean, the clues should actually apply somehow to the thing being clued, rather than merely having a property described by the thing being clued. (This isn't a complaint about your answer, for the avoidance of doubt, only about the puzzle.)

3:31 PM

Maybe "too broad"?

I think we should wait for the answer before deciding that.

Maybe, the puzzle has a "correct" answer that fits the riddle better than other answers

Idea: provide, with each question, a bcrypt hash of the intended solution + question ID

Yeah I said that earlier, while it looks very broad too me, the answer will dictate that. The OP hasn't responded to any new answers in 12+ hours

Gareth McCaughan

(I think there may be some confusion about who's talking about which puzzle here)

@GarethMcCaughan After your comment to Mike I think it switched to that riddle with 10 answers

3:34 PM

@JanDvorak "Solutions" don't have to be expressible in exactly one way.

Or even easily expressible at all.

I mean, in cases where the solution is a number / word rather than an explanation or algorithm

Gareth McCaughan

@n_palum It looks like that. But I think e.g. Deusovi's comment was still about the missing-number one.

(Yes, mine was about the missing-number one.)

oh, that should be closed, i think

Fair enough.. on the riddle one, I do think Mike's fits

But I do think it's overly broad as many answers fit so far

Gareth McCaughan

3:36 PM

Mike's connects with all the clues and hints. But if it's the answer the OP intended then I think the puzzle is unfair because the clues don't describe the answer, and that's how riddles are supposed to work.

True

yes

even words can often be expressed multiple ways

Maybe you are supposed to take the redundant words and do something with them?

Absolutely C positive

?

That would require more tags no?

3:39 PM

It doesn't require per se

But I'd expect so

@GarethMcCaughan Agreed. If that's the answer, it's not a riddle.

Sure F ... too bad the third redundancy isn't about furious ire.

C++

:P

Lol.

3:54 PM

What? Why do we assume "how riddles are supposed to work"? Isn't the whole point to be obscure and expect a creative solution?

@MikeQ A riddle gives indirect clues about an unnamed object or concept to be identified. It is often presented in the form of a poem.

Anyway, Mike (and Gareth) were correct it would seem

And this puzzle gave indirect clues about an unnamed concept to be identified. Granted, the clues are very open-ended and there seemed to be multiple possible answers; I'm not defending the puzzle's quality, but I am defending that it is a riddle.

Gareth McCaughan

I'd put that almost exactly the other way around. The puzzle may be reasonable, but it isn't a riddle. Or, more precisely, the way in which it was presented misled the reader (not merely by allowing them to make wrong assumptions, but by actually misstating what was wanted) about what was being asked.

Then how should it be classified?

Maybe enigmatic idk

riddle lines are meant to give you a word and have it fit, not be a line involving (wordplay?) that makes the style the hint instead of the actual perceived hint

Gareth McCaughan

4:04 PM

If I write a clue that says "I just killed Lady Magnolia, never offering pity" and the answer is "alphabetical order" or something then sure, the clue has told us something useful; but it has also claimed that the answer is something that in some sense "just killed Lady Magnolia". Unless either there's a setting where Lord Alphabet is one of the suspects, or there's some further indication that the surface meaning of the clues is not to be believed, you shouldn't do that

I don't at all object to puzzles in which you're meant to infer what's going on from (say) grammatical features of the clues. But such a puzzle shouldn't be presented in a way that implies that the clues are (even if obliquely) telling you something that truly applies to the thing you're looking for.

Agree with the second statement the most - the riddle tag is misleading especially when the answer is revolving around a style/grammar feature/some wordplay etc

I like that a redundant asnwer has just been posted to the question in question.

lol

To borrow a clue from 1932 (ref: Cluetopia), in crossword clue terms the first form of the riddle feels to me like: 'So Eustace dedicated his book on tubers to you! We English are no longer farmers, I am afraid; the sight of a decayed swede or fetid parsnip no longer thrills us.' (Hidden) (4)

@Rubio Your 5E is quite controversial

4:12 PM

@Sp3000 ???

Meh.

(the intended answer for that one is SNIP hidden somewhere in the phrase - back then crossword cluing wasn't as well-defined yet)

Whaaat.

That's terrible.

So the entire rest of the clue is useless?

... yup (which is also how I feel about this riddle)

Gareth McCaughan

4:14 PM

Bear in mind that in 1932 the whole idea of cryptic crosswords was still in its infancy.

^

I am so glad we have the modern cryptic crossword.

4:30 PM

@Sp3000 ... Wow. Imagine having such clues today

So the word is "snip" because it's in the clue? Why not "raid" (afraid) or "tube" (tubers) or "long" (longer), etc?

because those don't work with crossing words I'd assume

@MikeQ Because it would fit with crossing answers, I guess.

@n_palum I don't think it's too broad - the problem is that most of the answers are silly and don't really fit.

Although in light of the accepted answer, maybe it's not a good puzzle anyway.

Yeah I've already said the answer would likely change my mind, in this case it just made me dislike it

4:35 PM

On the other hand, it's a sort of out-of-the-box non-riddle along similar lines to the most upvoted question on the site.

@Randal'Thor That one worked better than this one. A lot.

It's still a riddle. It even uses the "clues given by the unknown thing/object" trope - but it does so cleverly. The clues are still descriptive of the object, just... given differently.

In this one, the "clues" are wholly unrelated.

So if I wrote a riddle where the solution is "clue", and the riddle lines are each clues but the riddle as a whole doesn't indicate a specific thing... is it not a riddle?

Riddles have to indicate a specific thing. That's practically the definition of a riddle.

I believe one of the most famous riddles is, to paraphrase, 'What's in my pocket'

And that riddle is bullshit.

:P

4:39 PM

even though it was a terrible riddle

"Putting it gently" - Deusovi

Oh hey, @Rubio, remember this? Turns out I got to answer it on SFF after all!

@Sconibulus That's not a riddle.

"Vote to close, precioussss!"

@n_palum You know me, always tactful.

Nice

4:40 PM

@Deusovi Tactful, Tasteful and a bit... tart?

@n_palum Who are you calling a tart?

I mean I'm a puzzle piece now

Apparently, me.

@Randal'Thor viewed 34,273 times

.... how

Not a tart, but tart

@Rubio because everyone who comes to this site looks at the top questions, everyone.

4:42 PM

I suppose so

@Rubio Over on Movies & TV there's a recent question which got more views than that in a day despite only having 1 upvote and not having hit HNQs.

@Randal'Thor did it get linked on reddit or something?

@Sconibulus I'm guessing it's high on people's search results and about some recent film.

Anyway, this was but a brief foray. Later, all.

5:11 PM

would a Liars/Minesweeper hybrid count for the fortnightly challenge?

"Liars"? Like a Minesweeper puzzle where one clue in every row and column is a liar? I've seen those before, but I'm not sure if they're hybrids per se. "Liars" isn't a puzzle genre of its own, unless you're referring to something else.

more like having to deduce which clues are liars based on the grid, but not establishing a specific 1 per row/column

Depends on what you mean by that. (The 1 per row/column thing is a common variant of grid deduction genres, which is why I assumed that.)

Sounds like a hybrid. Minesweeper (grid deduction) + liars (logical deduction).

yeah I mean in my puzzle, the number clues from minesweeper would be a guy with a number who will either be lying or telling the truth.

5:16 PM

That just sounds like a cruel version of minesweeper where you aren't sure if the numbers are real

They're already hard to figure out as is D:

possibly, but minesweeper complexity is controlled completely by bomb density. simply reduce the bombs to make the puzzle easier.

given a puzzle of sufficiently light density and enough exposed clues, one should be able to solve it with a little bit of effort

that being said, I haven't actually made the POC I have in mind and I'm looking to add another twist, so I don't know if it will work. Just hoping to get it in before the deadline if it would qualify, which is what I'm hoping to find out here.

plus, since this is not an interactive puzzle like minesweeper, all of the number clues would need to be visible at the start, making it a different sort of challenge

Plant a virus under each bomb

er djpi;f ,slr yjod yjr mre dysmfstf gpt vp,,imovsyopm

no, that's a terrible idea

The word you are looking for there is great

good to get that feedback early

5:26 PM

Planting a virus, or making the numbers visible?

@Forklift Deus wasn't calling your idea terrible if you thought

Ah, sorry. Yeah, I was talking to n_p.

it was... unclear

I don't particularly like Minesweeper, but a minesweeper with liars could be interesting.

OR do liars with slitherlink that has minesweeper in it

5:31 PM

It wouldn't be a hybrid of two grid deduction genres though.

I'll need to workshop it some. not sure how feasible it would be. my basic idea is roughly (again, I haven't tried it yet) is to expose all of the number hints, but they are either indicating the number of bombs or non-bombs next to them. or they are lying about it by one (plus or minus). all of the numbers would be exposed so the challenge would be to find all of the liars and the one square in the puzzle that is special

that is true, but therein lies the crux of my question: would such a puzzle qualify for the biweekly?

The one square that's special?

I don't think I'd consider this a hybrid, but I might consider this one to be one.

^.

For it to be a "hybrid", you have to mix two grid deduction genres somehow.

As I said

5:34 PM

so the idea is more than one grid-deduction puzzle, not more than one puzzle, one of which is a grid-deduction

yes

perhaps I should have led with the question worded that way :)

Domidoku is a pretty good example of that at the least

#SelfPlug

@n_palum They are related to the current conversation and considerably easier for me to find than someone else's puzzle lol

5:35 PM

#SelfPlugDon'tCare

ok, thanks for the input guys. That should give me extra time to woodshed my idea.

If you get a good puzzle idea you can still post it as not a part of the FTC

^

Or just wait for the topic to come up again, like Deus is unintentionally doing with a meta-puzzle?

I'm sorry D:

5:48 PM

Post it. Post it. Post it. Post it.

Would a KenKen + Sudoku count as a hybrid? Or are they too similar (you could argue that it's just a kenKen with one additional requirement)?

Borderline, but I'd count it.

I'm trying to brainstorm but all of my ideas so far are "sudoku with a twist"

6:06 PM

I'm building one, finally had an idea I like

it's been months since I've done a real puzzle :)

Woo

I might need a uniqueness solver guinea pig

I'd volunteer but you probably need someone smarter

I'm not ready yet, I just have suspicions

@Sconibulus is it a logic grid?

6:16 PM

yeah

wait, no

it's a grid deduction

hybrid

fortnightly guy :)

same concept (to me) I can probably test-solve for you. I won't be able to solve it faster than most anyhow I'm sure.

logic grids are the ones where the guy in the blue house eats pancakes I think

yup

What about pancakes?

logic grid puzzles are a bunch of statements like "the man in the green house lives east of the person who has a fish"

6:19 PM

Vote to bring back the pancakes

@Deusovi Like I said, same concept (to me)

by the way, oosh (yes I'm in two places at once!)

Now I'll have to wh twice to put myself back together...

what's the name for the puzzle where you have to count up a grid?

count up a grid?

taxi cab geometry

yeah, like there's a 1 in the bottom left and a 60 in the top right and a 24 somewhere near the top left or whatever and you need to find a path that fills the grid such that every N is the Nth step

I know I've seen them

6:30 PM

Hidato?

ahh, yeah. Thanks

wow

7:04 PM

what if I combine a logic grid and a grid deduction

Then you've made a puzzle? Congratulations?

closes Rubio's question as unclear

There wasn't a question mark. :)

I'll borrow one of Deus'

7:26 PM

@dcfyj I think I've got it ready, would you be able to take a look and toss me some feedback sometime in the next couple days?

Catching up... I recently found an expanded Minesweeper type game with all sorts of extra hint types and logic involved. The author has been adding new levels with new functions semi-regularly. I LOVE it. kongregate.com/games/ZBlip/mine-of-sight

I can post the puzzle with onetimesecret

Question about what constitutes a hybrid: What if it's a multi-step puzzle, where the steps are different types of grid puzzles?

that's probably not a hybrid, but it might be a great puzzle

Hybrid = 2 becomes 1

7:31 PM

so the puzzle must contain a single grid that combines 2 puzzle types

AFAIK

@Sconibulus sure, use this email to send it: dcfyj1@gmail.com

@feelinferrety Yeah, I've played that before. It's pretty hard towards the end. some of the clue markers make life much easier though.

alright, sent

7:48 PM

Your rules aren't super clear, I've an idea of what I need to to (I think) and while I excel at solving the second type of puzzle, I suck at solving the first kind >.<. How reliant are they on each other?

only the clues rely on eachother really

basically two different endpoints from the same start point

(is the one you like the county one or the bordery one)

the bordery one (as you call it) is the one I suck at, also, I don't see how to get a single non-intersecting border

have you had to do anything strange yet? There's one big Aha! that I included the spoiler for

That's part of the issue, I don't see any of the clues for the county, just the bordery (I looked at the spoiler, I don't particularly see how it helps with either)

oh, I think I see it

The spoiler's for the bordery...

You jerk lol

the spoiler applies equally to both

7:58 PM

Well, I see how you could use it for the county, but I don't particularly see how the clue relate to it (I'll just need to pull out my matching object I have.)

Wait, does this follow all the rules of both?

I think so

sorry @Mike, didn't mean to be rude

8:14 PM

I took it as jokingly

just curious - who here said they played hearthstone?

I play a little bit

north america servers?

aye

battle tag? :)

8:17 PM

umm... not certain at the moment

On the subject of gaming - would you all recommend Factorio?

not released yet?

@Deusovi it is a very specific type of game

but it sounds cool

it is playable in its current state, i enjoy it a lot

but there can be a steep learning curve, some of the UI and tutorials are lacking

8:24 PM

@Deusovi A friend of mine would, he loves it, but I've not played it

Steam gives it a 10/10. So, it must be something

I tried the demo, and "steep learning curve" is very accurate.

in The Bridge, 30 secs ago, by MadMAxJr

Factorio strikes me as a game for engineers and electronics experts.

many good games have steep learning curves

i think there is a demo available, it is pretty representative of the rest of the game

@Mithrandir more like people who like logistics

8:24 PM

It's pretty highly rated though, and I like making overcomplicated automation in Minecraft - I've heard Factorio is basically "overcomplicated automation: the game"

@Deusovi yes, this is true

i like that

in the endgame, you can do very complicated things, like have things start or stop production based on how many of those items you already have, that sort of thing

it's not fancy logic, it can be like "make circuitboards until i have more than 10k circuitboards"

sounds fun

and then it will automatically turn off or on when those conditions are met

there is also EE kind of stuff, like setting up wires to transmit signals, but i'm not interested in those things so i don't use those features

and its kind of a strange thing to say, but setting up and perfecting production lines gets really fun

8:29 PM

like I said, I play Minecraft a fair amount, and that's mostly just for the purpose of automating things, so I'm not opposed to the idea of Factorio

it seems pretty interesting, but the demo was somehow both overwhelming and underwhelming? I dunno how to explain

like figuring out the timing and quantities needed for the sub components to get built, then those go down conveyor belts to feed higher level component construction, and so on

GamEn

the main game is like more of the demo

@BeastlyGerbil gameN

Spacechem was pretty fun and seems sort of similar to that

8:30 PM

I didn't get too far through the demo, though. Just wasn't sure where to go or how exactly things worked

@Sconibulus I've played Spacechem. It's fun, but doesn't seem too similar to Factorio.

@Deusovi did you play the level where you have to rebuild the abandoned base?

I... think so? It's been a while since I played it.

@Deusovi ok, that level is pretty representative of the rest of the game

Hm. I might have to try it again to see if I like it, then.

long story short, i recommend the game if you like the demo

8:32 PM

(Unsure if this belongs as a comment on the latest meta question) Is there, or could someone compile, a list of "distinct" grid puzzle types that are valid for hybrids?

it has a very specific appeal, not everyone likes it

@MikeQ I mean, there are a lot. And we don't "police" what counts as an FTC entry anyway, especially because it's just for fun.

anyway, i hang out on the bridge, feel free to come over there if you have more factorio questions

The Bridge

General Arqade Chat. We tried to leave once, but the door lock...

crap, I forgot to favorite that older Grid Hybrid puzzle

interesting bug

when you remove, it doesn't go off the sidebar

8:43 PM

@Deusovi Yes but a hybrid should be a hybrid of multiple distinct and identifiable things, correct?

@Deusovi do you remember it? Three puzzles where each was two different puzzles in one?

and we had a hell of a time figuring out what secondary puzzle types the last couple could be

@MikeQ Sure, but as long as you can say what they are, and it's at least slightly different from just being one of those two puzzle types, then it's good.

(Like, a Sudoku/Kenken combination where all the Kenken regions were the columns summing to 45 wouldn't be any different from a regular Sudoku.)

To clarify - I am asking about the difference between "sudoku with a twist" and "hybrid of sudoku and [distinct puzzle style]"

There might not be much of a difference. Some puzzles could probably be "presented" either way.

@Sconibulus This one?

8:49 PM

Oh, we still didn't finish that.

Actually, your answer for that one has a decent list of different-looking puzzle types

Wow surprised Dune came over here

Most of which are Japanese ones that I've never heard of before

There are a lot more.

I recommend gmpuzzles.com/blog for logic puzzles.

Also, when designing a hybrid, is the expectation that you basically superimpose two grid puzzles?

8:53 PM

They've got a list of genres down the left side (of course, there are more, but there are a lot there)

The expectation is that you combine the rules of two grid deduction types in some way.

You can interpret that however you like - "grid deduction hybrid" isn't a standard term or anything.

nikoli.co.jp/en/puzzles/index.html also has a fairly big list of genres.

Ok ok. What about kenken, but the regions are n-ominoes, and the kenken borders aren't shown?

Is that too simple?

That's a variant, but I'm not sure I'd call it a hybrid - what other type are you "merging" it with?

kenken + n-ominoes

(It's not too simple though!)

so it would basically be a grid and some spaces have "+12" or "x24", etc, and nothing else

8:58 PM

Yeah, I know what you mean. And it seems like an interesting variant. But the word "hybrid" means "combination of two things".

That idea has Kenken and... what else?

n-ominoes.... is that not a genre on its own?

Aha, see, this goes back to my original question about variant vs hybrid

Not a grid deduction genre I'm aware of. Some puzzles use n-ominoes, though.

what is an n-ominoe puzzle?

it's not a specific type.

A hybrid combines two specific types of puzzles.

n-onminoes just are used in many puzzles, as deusovi said

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Jun '1720

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