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12:23 AM
4
Q: ‘‘Loopy’’ C loop

humnWhat is the smallest number of non-space characters that can be added in order to change the following code into a complete C program that prints  LoopyLoopyLoopyLoopy? #include<stdio.h> main(){ <-- ^ | @ | v --> printf("Loopy");} Starts as: 5 lines with no leading spaces, totaling 52 non-spac...

 
 
3 hours later…
3:22 AM
21
Q: Read. Learn. Live. Escape

AlconjaYou wake lying face down on a hard stone floor. Your head hurts. As your eyes find focus, you see a haiku scratched into the ground beside you: A wrong step brings death! But, a wrong guess brings knowledge… Read. Learn. Live. Escape. Death? Escape? You leap up and scan your surroundings......

 
 
4 hours later…
7:28 AM
Some more thoughts on Sconibulus puzzle: the word first can be found vertically on the grid. Again vertically, but upwards we can find Grover's which could refer to Grover's algorithm.
Vertically, again upwards, we can also find the word place with the letters rte before it. Perhaps "replace"?
And, again vertically , upwards, we can read "Fibonacci"
Someone ought to solve it now, making sense out of all this
 
8:07 AM
@MariaDeleva Thanks, Maria.
 
8:20 AM
For what? @RosieF
 
@MariaDeleva For finding even more in Sconibulus's puzzle, and putting it into an answer.
 
Well, I thought I would put everything in one place. But can' t figure out what to do with all this
Other things I can find but are probably irrelevant: mum, dad, gay. Although not sure about Gay. It is a common name so it could refer to someone named Gay and their algorithm or something
There is indeed a person named Davis Gay and he wrote a paper on decimal/ binary conversions and vice versa.
David*
 
8:44 AM
@MariaDeleva I expect that those 3-letter words are probably just coincidence, and are not relevant.
 
Sid
Some of those letters might correspond to spaces.
 
9:17 AM
This is how the grid looks like converted first to binary and then to decimaL:
88 80 77 65 87 87 86 88 73 81 77 88 76 77 70
69 84 88 80 67 89 79 76 71 89 89 85 77 79 86
88 80 77 86 89 77 66 80 87 67 79 65 69 84 87
88 66 80 77 80 77 66 80 81 89 73 87 82 77 87
66 68 67 71 87 77 84 81 66 83 82 67 75 66 87
67 82 77 77 67 70 87 67 68 68 68 68 68 73 74
75 83 84 82 65 83 88 66 67 87 65 69 68 68 73
71 77 67 68 69 68 87 78 78 83 87 66 69 87 81
87 70 65 65 65 65 65 87 82 66 87 87 67 66 86
69 69 73 68 77 87 86 87 80 77 82 70 65 88 65
87 68 83 77 87 79 66 71 73 73 67 77 78 70 73
79 78 66 77 69 77 68 76 79 81 72 84 80 69 68
What Gareth saw in the grid AEIOU are basically all the vowels ordered alphabetically
 
 
1 hour later…
10:29 AM
So I
oops
So, assuming we've now cracked the Sconibulus puzzle, I have to confess I'm a bit disappointed by it: it feels as if the only reason it wasn't cracked sooner is that everyone was looking for something more interesting than the actual answer :-). I don't think the sense of disappointment is really fair to the puzzle or its author, though; my guess is that Sconibulus thought he was making a nice quick easy puzzle and watched in horror as everyone bounced off it.
 
Woo 6000 rep :P
 
@GarethMcCaughan If there is nothing more to find, what are the top two rows and the left-hand column for? We haven't found anything in them yet.
 
10:48 AM
Hello everybody
I hope you'll like my entry for the fortnightly topic :)
0
Q: The shrink and his patient (Part 1)

IAmInPLSThis is an entry in the 15th Fortnightly Topic Challenge. Harold Smith, a coffee in his hand, was contemplating his sleeping wife. Once again, he was up early, way before the alarm. "Why didn't I quit already? I could stay at home, take care of the baby with Sandra and make puzzles all day!", ...

And yes, the visual part was a hell to do.
 
11:04 AM
I'll edit a bit later as I am currently having lunch :)
 
@IAmInPLS I like how you hid the message in the book
 
11:18 AM
@GarethMcCaughan You're too fast
 
yeah but I haven't got there yet
 
Well, almost
 
unless NK really does indicate North Korea :-)
 
I think you should read the not-puzzling-elements one more time
 
have been doing
 
11:19 AM
It's in plain sight :-)
One tag = one element
 
you should stop giving clues
@IAmInPLS, there are some things in the story that are a bit odd but seem like they could just be minor mistakes rather than clues. Examples: "A bit perplex" for "A bit perplexed", "had still shivers" for "still had shivers", a mysterious space before a punctuation mark. Would you like to clarify whether these are just slips that could be corrected? (I can give you a longer list if you want it.)
 
11:37 AM
These are typos only, I'll be happy to edit if you give me all the ones you found. Or you can do it if you wish to!
 
OK. I found, in order of appearance: space before colon; "had still" for "still had"; "picking his appointment book" for, I assume, "picking up ..."; "has been suffering" should probably be "had been suffering"; generally that paragraph's tenses are a bit strange (~2/3 of the way through it shifts from past to present, and then it goes back again at the end). "A bit perplex" should be "... perplexed"; perhaps near the end "ended" should be "had ended". I think that's it.
 
Sorry my puzzle wasn't as interesting as it looked
Although, interestingly enough, there's also something resembling a hint that wasn't found
if you happen to try to decipher the first few lines of the text with the vigenere key 'EIEIO' you get something that looks quite a bit like English, but apparently nobody tried that
 
@IAmInPLS, also "favorite patient" should surely be "favorite patients"
@Sconibulus, as I said I don't think the disappointment is in any way your fault.
Even though I thought of EIEIO it never occurred to me to use that as a Vigenere key!
That's really rather cute.
(As is the "A*" thing, which I would never in a million years have worked out.)
 
11:54 AM
no kidding
 
I worried when creating it that the star thing was maybe a little too cute, but I thought it might be a little more obvious after nearest neighbor was found
 
I know A*, I even talked about it when we found Dijkstra's >.<
 
I only figured the A, B and D out because of this neat page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Search_algorithms
 
yeah, I tried to not use anything that wasn't on this page to help those who were less computer-inclined
 
@IamInPLS, oh, another one: "ran away of his office" -- away from, I guess
 
11:58 AM
Well, the Naive and Prim's weren't there. :) But I figured out the Naive anyway. :)
 
I think Prim is probably a coincidence
(but could be wrong)
 
Well, we can thank @Randal'Thor I guess @GarethMcCaughan :-)
 
oops, no, I see Sconibulus has confirmed Prim's. Sorry.
@IAmInPLS indeed
I am always reluctant to edit someone else's question when it might have steganographic stuff in it.
 
The 'hard' parts were supposed to be the book and the weird sentence, but you broke them in no time :-).
 
The book was (sorry!) super-obvious. (Clearly not only to me.) But this would not be the first time that I found the "hard" things easy and the "easy" things utterly mystifying. I am sure I will want to kick myself when I find the correct final step.
 
12:08 PM
@GarethMcCaughan I am so sure you will!
 
Why is this cipher such a pain to write... On top of the fact that I know it's a pretty weak one that can be solve quickly T.T
 
so CvWaes posted an answer that in effect suggests that there is no third part and the answer is that Mrs Smith is in Eliot's house. I'm guessing there is meant to be a little more to it than that.
 
12:25 PM
There are details in the framing story that leads to this conclusion, but CvWaes omitted them. This is the right conclusion anyway!
(please don't hit me)
(part 2 will be harder I swear!)
 
Sid
@IAmInPLS This is actually a very good puzzle according to me. You are just unlucky that Gareth is just too fast...
 
12:46 PM
Hmm, OK.
So are you going to give CvWaes the checkmark (I would be absolutely fine with that) or should I edit that conclusion into my answer?
(do psychiatrists usually know their patients' home addresses? I have no idea)
oh, no, wait, the proposal is that it's Smith's house they're in
and actually I don't see anything in the story that does much to distinguish between (1) EA is at HS's house carrying on an affair with his wife, (2) EA is at HS's house having attacked his wife, (3) EA is at EA's house having kidnapped HS's wife, and indeed (4) EA is somewhere else entirely having kidnapped HS's wife. If I had to pick one as most natural given the story I think it would be 3 rather than 1,2,4, but that isn't actually what CvWaes said.
(#1 has the advantage that it explains why EA has been arriving late.)
 
1:15 PM
@GarethMcCaughan I had in mind that the line " I could stay at home, take care of the baby with Sandra" would imply that his wife is staying at home with the baby (maternity leave, you know). So Harold goes to his house to check 1/if his wife is at home (EA is a patient so maybe he's not telling the truth" and 2/ check if his baby is still home too. But you'll know more about this in the second part (and I hope you're not too disappointed from this 'ending' of the first aprt)
But I see you came with many possible backstories, it's very interesting :-)
That leads me to conclude that you could be very good at building puzzles :-)
 
People keep telling me I should be making puzzles. But making puzzles is much harder work than solving them. And so far as I know I'm no good at it :-).
 
@GarethMcCaughan Agreed on the fact that making puzzles is harder than solving them! I'll see you for the second part then, I guess :-)
 
@GarethMcCaughan Takes practice, so get cracking :P
 
@Sid Thanks for the kind words! And you're right, I suspect @Gareth is some kind of artificial intelligence trained for the only purpose of speed-cracking puzzles from us.
 
2:19 PM
3
Q: I go round and round

numberknotI go round and round and rise above the ground My head’s nothing but air & lets anything fair To make some gay and others flay. Who am I?

 
2:30 PM
Not enough attention? It has five answers, and no comments or edits from OP. What is he expecting to get?
 
Who knows
maybe he just wanted to get a bounty badge
 
Sid
3:09 PM
@IAmInPLS Yeah.. That's why he never makes puzzles. Only solves them... AI are not programmed to make puzzles..
 
I dunno, if a road goes from A to B, and you're willing to ignore all traffic laws, you can traverse the road from B to A
so just perform every operation backwards and you should end up with a puzzle that's completely impossible to solve!
wait... that's not the goal at all...
 
For some more narrowly constrained kinds of puzzle, if you can solve them then you can make them. E.g., the sort in Simon Tatham's "portable puzzle collection". Generate random puzzle instances, run your solver, see if there's a unique solution, and (at least for puzzles where this is a thing you can do) add/remove hints to constrain the solution more or less if it's non-unique / impossible.
 
3:27 PM
making puzzles is kinda hard, I've ended up with quite a few false starts so far
like one idea I was working on I just realized would end up being something like a 20 page story
which is probably well more than anyone wants to solve
 
@GarethMcCaughan That's fine in theory, but if your solver finds exactly 1 solution to a puzzle you give it, it might still be that your solver is deficient and there are other solutions it hasn't found.
 
3:50 PM
@Mithrandir :
0
Q: Mithrandir has lost his keys!

rand al'thor Announcement: All puzzles are being delayed because my Puzzling notebook with all of my keys disappeared. :/ -- Mithrandir Some hours after discovering this devastating loss, Mithrandir went to bed. Still moping over his missing notebook, he didn't notice the piece of paper on his pillow at ...

 
Poor Mithrandir, Rand stole his keys :P
On a side note, Rand knows where he lives!
 
"if you figure out where I put your notebook, then you really are the master of puzzles" - "this one should be easy" Either the notebook part is extremely hard and the name part extremely easy or he couldn't decide how difficult the puzzle is :P
 
19 hours ago, by Rand al'Thor
@Mithrandir Perhaps you'll get an encrypted ransom note which you can then post up as a puzzle!
I beat @Mithrandir to it :-P
 
hehe
 
@RosieF yeah, the assumption is that the solver is designed to find all possible solutions (well, if there are lots it might merely report that there are lots) and isn't full of bugs.
 
3:58 PM
Gareth has actually been creating a massive epic puzzle all these months he's been on here :P
 
What is the inside-joke about Scimonster all about? I have seen links to his/her profile often in the last time.
 
@Scimonster and @Mithrandir know each other in real life. (Don't know what sort of relationship to each other)
 
Oh cool
 
4:18 PM
@dcfyj nope, sorry, really haven't been
 
Damn :P
 
4:36 PM
It would be funny if @Mithrandir's keys were actually over the fridge
 
You never know, coincedence isn't just a fantastical word
 
@BeastlyGerbil I know a bit more than that ...
 
So I'm finished making my puzzle, but I can't post it because I'm not done building it...
 
It's a physical thing made out of wood or brick or something? It's a piece of computer software that takes a very long time to compile?
 
4:40 PM
No, I have to transcribe the riddle letter by letter into the cipher. It's a bit time consuming.
 
To me that makes no sense
You just told us how to solve it though :P
 
Not remotely
You'll understand when I post it. I know it'll get solved pretty quickly since as a cipher it's not super strong (although the riddle might withstand a little scrutiny) but over all knowing how i'm building it, makes no real difference.
 
I've posted at least one puzzle where I told everyone exactly how I encrypted it but decryption was still something of a challenge.
 
Plus, even knowing how it's encrypted, you wouldn't know off hand which letter is which
 
Hexomino managed to find more meaning in my puzzle than I put it in
 
4:45 PM
8
Q: Cyclical Vigenere poem!

rand al'thorThis is a new idea I just came up with. I'm going to tell you exactly how I constructed the following ciphertext, and your task is to extract the plaintext. If you really want a challenge, you can try attacking the ciphertext just as a string of cryptograms without reading the spoilertag below, b...

 
@Randal'Thor Yeah... That's a bit more complicated of a cipher than the one I'm using lol
If I'd realized mine was going to take this long to make I would've started it before part 1 was solved...
 
@dcfyj Mine didn't take long to make ... maybe we have different definitions of 'complicated' :-P
 
To make no, but to decode yes
You know, I think I might add the [no-computer] tag to this next one. It's perfectly feasible to decipher without them, would just take a few minutes as opposed to a few second. :P
 
how familiar are you all with the phrase 'double it and add thirty'?
 
Yay I just got my first tag badge, riddle. Mainly from this
 
Sid
4:59 PM
Here's a question, What is the maximum rep anyone has lost due to deletion of a puzzle??
 
@Randal'Thor?
He'll be able to answer
 
@BeastlyGerbil Congrats!
 
Thanks
 
@BeastlyGerbil Why? I've almost never lost rep from deletion of a puzzle AFAICR. Apparently I've been lucky enough to avoid answering plagiarised stuff.
 
can't you run queries and stuf
you have access to internal google analytics
 
5:04 PM
@BeastlyGerbil Those are really boring actually, and I've hardly ever looked at them. The most exciting rep privilege by far is what you get at 10k.
 
Thats my yearly target
 
I'm almost done! Yay!
 
@dcfyj Damn, that means I'll be otherwise occupied when you post it and I'll get scooped :-).
(For the avoidance of doubt, that is not in any way a serious complaint.)
 
I still have 2 lines to encipher. (technically 4)
And I'm contemplating putting a no-computer tag on it. I feel as though Computers are by no means required for this.
 
@GarethMcCaughan, you know that people get too easily offended when you have to explain that :P
 
5:08 PM
He didn't have to explain, I figured he was joking.
 
@BeastlyGerbil I'd never even looked at the analytics page on Puzzling before - I found out on SFF how uninteresting it was.
Just checked it now, and meh.
 
Seems an unworthy prize for 20k rep
 
Wait, wtf? scifi.blogoverflow.com is the 4th biggest referring site for Puzzling?
 
I'm not sure people actually do get too easily offended -- but better safe than sorry.
 
Have I been linking loads of Puzzling stuff on the SFF blog and forgotten about it?
 
5:12 PM
Anyway, AFK now for at least the next hour or thereabouts. I hope to see an awesome puzzle from dcfyj comprehensively solved by Rand or someone when I get back :-).
 
Sid
Damn, I can't cheer up now. I lost 140 rep at a time... I was hoping someone here would say at least 150 but, maybe it's not my day... :(
 
Is it bad that I'm starting to be able to read my cipher as though it were plaintext?
 
I have lost 165 or something from serial upvoting :)
Although I am not sure that counts at all
 
@dcfyj, that adds to the puzzle
 
@dcfyj, that is actually a good thing :)
 
5:16 PM
@BeastlyGerbil How so?
 
For others not in chat, it will look like its not a cipher. So the puzzle will be harder
 
@Sid Cheer up, warspyking once lost at least 300:
0
Q: I had over 1500 reputation yesterday. Where has it all gone?

warspykingI don't see any trace of it all disappearing... I had over 1500 now it's 1200? How'd that happen? Can anybody tell me? I just realized that my answers here had been deleted, this is where I got a ton of rep! I'm assuming the number is the upvotes I got! 45: http://puzzling.stackexchange.com/que...

 
What's not a cipher? i'm confused...
 
@dcfyj, forget it I think I misinterpreted your comment
 
@MariaDeleva No, serial voting is different. That was rep you 'shouldn't' have had in the first place, but rep lost from deleted posts might be if you answered a question in good faith but it happened to be plagiarised or something.
 
5:19 PM
I figured as much. But still - wanted to comfort Sid in some way :)
 
@BeastlyGerbil It is a cipher, I'm just starting to be able to read as though it were written in English normally...
 
Sid
Thanks, made me feel a LITTLE better... @dcfyj When are you posting your puzzle??
 
We are awaiting eagerly
 
@BeastlyGerbil 25k. The 20k rep powers are a bit better: you get to vote to delete answers. (We need more 20k-ers here - I and the mods are the only ones voting to delete answers atm!)
 
I just got done translating it. Now I have to check to make sure I didn't make errors in translation
 
5:20 PM
0
Q: Sink me and live

Steve MangiameliYou wake up sitting in a chair, hands tied behind you and ankles strapped to the legs. A looking around you see you are in the middle of what looks to be the inside of a dimly lit log cabin; the windows all look dark. The furnishings are sparse, except for a clock on the wall, a table in front ...

bleah
 
@Randal'Thor, hopefully I will join that gang one day :P
 
Sid
@dcfyj which means 5 minutes??
 
In theory
 
Don't rush poor @dcfyj :-(
 
@Randal'Thor clearly you need to be less stingy with the upvotes :)
 
5:22 PM
I'd rather see a better puzzle posted later than one posted earlier which then needs to be constantly corrected (coughTheBitBytecough).
@BeastlyGerbil Here, you can have a sneak preview of the 25k analytics:
 
Wow. I could probably make that on excel.
 
Sid
@dcfyj Yeah yeah... slow down.. I need to study for my exam...(Just saying)
 
@Sconibulus I've already cast 3393 upvotes. How many do you want?
 
I've done 442
 
I've done 255
 
5:25 PM
@Randal'Thor, I'll tell you how many I want. 3393 upvotes on my questions :P
 
Then you would need to post 3393 questions
 
@BeastlyGerbil You don't have 3393 posts.
 
True
Does anyone?
 
hmm, I've only done 176, maybe I
'm the stingy one
 
@BeastlyGerbil Nope.
 
5:26 PM
Whats the max?
 
Nobody even has 1000 here.
 
Wow. I suppose there are only 7500 questions here
 
This guy has over 4000 answers on SFF.
 
Which is why its not suprising they have 213'000 rep
Thats is a hell of a lot
who has the max rep on stackexchange total? Or on an individual site?
 
@BeastlyGerbil You missed a 0 there :-)
@BeastlyGerbil You haven't heard of Jon Skeet?
 
5:28 PM
Oops
Well yes
 
Jon Skeet, Reading, United Kingdom
894k 482 6472 7427
 
Waiting for 1000k
 
And for SE total, it's still Jon Skeet: chat.stackexchange.com/users?tab=all&sort=reputation
 
@BeastlyGerbil Wouldn't that be 1M?
 
Good point.
 
5:31 PM
Jon Skeet has like 10x more great answer badges than I badges O_o I need to rethink my SE activity :P
 
Jon Skeet's #2 site is main meta, where he got most of his rep from this answer:
821
A: Jon Skeet Facts

Jon SkeetThese are written in the third person so as not to disrupt the style of the thing. But hey, as we all know, Jon Skeet can make 1 == 3 anyway, so it makes no difference. Jon Skeet is immutable. If something's going to change, it's going to have to be the rest of the universe. Jon Skeet's additio...

 
His parent user has 101 rep :P
 
what is a parent user?
 
@MariaDeleva Everyone's chat profile is linked to a 'parent' site (in your case, SO).
 
Mine is Puzzling I believe
 
5:41 PM
You can change your parent user by hand to any site where you have an account.
And mods can change anyone's.
 
Ready to wander?
@BeastlyGerbil you see why it took so long for me to translate?
 
Looks like sherlocks dancing men cipher
 
No idea, I found it online, but there's a no pc tag because it's quite possible to do without.
 
Its the sherlock homes dancing men cipher, see here
 
It's similar, not all the letters are the same
 
5:52 PM
Thats just the pictures, the actual one will match yours
 
Of course 1 man = 1 letter, just the men are different in mine compared to the one you linked
 
Yours seem to be Italic for some reason
 
Ah yes, postmodern italic dance.
 
I want to start to write them down and perform frequency analysis, but then again, somebody probably already started with that and I'll be too late :P
 
@Randal'Thor actually, that answer has been CW since the very start, so he got 0 rep for that.
Unless your point is the fact that Jon Skeet can earn rep on CW posts, in which case... Carry on.
 
6:08 PM
I assumed that's where he got his rep since it's his highest-voted answer there, but ... yeah, he can earn rep on CW posts, that works too.
Also, this must be what they call a "drive-by Shogging".
 
@BeastlyGerbil Are you putting it in word by word?
I think I lost him to my cipher
By the way, part 3 probably won't get put out until next month, regardless of how fast #2 gets solved.
 
gah this riddle is really long for manually deciphering
I think I might have an answer though, although I've got I think 3 couplets left
 
6:25 PM
@Sconibulus It was really long for manually encoding, tis only fair :P
Out of curiosity, what do you think the answer is?
 
I thought it was tbng, but I just deciphered zhfpyr naq snatf
(rot13)
 
You got tbng from the first couplet?
 
thanks for only introducing a letter or two per line, it makes deciphering on the path much easier
 
Wasn't on purpose lol, I was just trying to get the meter and rhyme consistent
 
It fit ok, and more the further I went
 
6:29 PM
Hey, some of us can do ROT13 in our heads! :-P
 
Once you have the entire riddle you'll understand better how to answer
@Randal'Thor So I should start using rot47?
 
@dcfyj Wow, never heard of that one.
Grr, somebody downvoted my Mithrandir question :-(
 
@dcfyj, back just had dinner
 
Ah ok
Rot47 uses more characters than just the alphabet, makes slightly harder than 13, but not much more so.
 
@dcfyj Just so long as you don't get overconfident and sloppy, but instead take due care with your enciphering. (Not that I'd suggest you weren't taking care already...)
 
6:38 PM
@RosieF I went through and double checked before posting, I found 3 wrong letters and 1 missing one.
 
@dcfyj, problem is sometimes even with multiple rechecking, one can still miss something. I am an example of that. :)
 
Oh I know, I went through man by man, but it's quite possible I missed something, I'll know once someone puts up the riddle whether or not I missed anything.
 
:) Right now I am still working on my TM puzzle - will post it later tonight
 
@dcfyj, I have to go now for at least 90 mins, hopefully someone will finish it off for me or I will finish when I get back
 
Hopefully, I won't miss anything
 
6:43 PM
@BeastlyGerbil by the way you have some incorrect letters on the second line
 
Boom!
That was really fun
although my neck is sore from screen staring
 
Lol, Good job
Although the second half of the first couplet is referring to "King of the jungle"
And btw, Crags are cliffs
 
ahh, King of the Jungle Gym... that makes sense
 
I have no idea where you're getting gym from.
 
where folks get quite sweaty?
or was that jungle
 
6:49 PM
folks get sweaty in a jungle :P
Hot + humid
 
oh, I wouldn't have thought of that... I suppose it's true though
 
Also, The original Chimera didn't have a dragon head, but it did breathe fire.
 
there's an original?
 
Well, as I expected, part 2 didn't withstand scrutiny too long. I doubt part 3 will either but I won't have much time to work on it in the next couple of weeks. Yay for vacation ^^
 
yay vacation
 
7:04 PM
@Randal'Thor Hm. I beg to differ. There is no "this user shouldn't have got those rep points". Whatever the intentions might have been, of anyone who made the rules, "serial voting" isn't an act that has a moral value and deserves punishment, it's just the result of a search by some so-called "voting fraud detection script". IMO users don't deserve punishment for their votes being spotted by such a mindless algorithm.
 
I don't really understand the reason why it happens in the first place (excluding the "socket puppet" cases, where someone thinks they can exploit the system and gain more rep for themselves). I would understand if someone wants to upvote a series, but still...
 
I think on StackOverflow, what they saw happening was that someone would come along who a Question/Answer helped, and be grateful, so click on that person and upvote their top 10 Questions/Answers, just because the one answer helped them so much
which interfered with the usage of votes as a metric of quality on the other posts
 
well, yes, it makes some sense on SO, but here??
 
Well this site was originally intended to be like the other SE sites.
 
you mean SE?
 
7:12 PM
you saw nothing :P
(i'm really tired)
 
what my question actually is why would someone serially upvote someone else. Let's just say serially downvoting somehow makes more sense to me - you could be annoyed by someone and want to punish him. But the upvoting is more puzzling to me. Pun intended.
 
StackExchange is one network, the rules and bots are mostly standardized
 
I am not talking about the rules, the reversal of votes and anything of the sort.
I am referring to the motives of someone who would do that.
 
Sconibulus already answered that
 
well, don't really see what puzzles could be helpful for, but ok.
 
7:19 PM
@Sconibulus More's the pity, in this case! (I mean, it's not as if a bot could automatically punish you if your behaviour on, say, a ProBoards or WordPress site met a condition that a bot was looking for.)
 
@RosieF Serial voting does have some kind of moral value. Especially downvoting, but also upvoting in many cases. Sure, it's spotted by a mindless algorithm, so there are false positives and false negatives, but the behaviour that algorithm exists to detect actually is bad.
@Sconibulus Yes, pretty much this. Also sockpuppeting: if one user is casting an awful lot of their upvotes on a particular other user, it's a good sign that they're actually the same person and just farming rep for themselves.
 
Did you get to play with my puzzle @Randal'Thor?
 
@dcfyj Which one? Dancing men?
 
yeah, that one
 
@Randal'Thor Oh I don't doubt that there has been bad behaviour in the past, and that algorithm exists to detect such bad behaviour. But I do challenge the notion that the algorithm succeeds in that laudable aim.
 
7:27 PM
@dcfyj No, I didn't really have a go at it. Beastly seemed to have it in hand already when I looked at it.
I'll go back and have a look now that it's been solved though, and probably upvote it.
 
I think I did pretty well with my riddle.
Albeit, the cipher was very time consuming to write...
 
@MariaDeleva Let's say you find one of Deusovi's answers, and you think "one upvote isn't enough for this post - I want to give him more rep than that" or "wow, this guy is really great - I want to find more of his stuff to upvote". Voting for the person and not the post - that's the essence of what the algorithm is designed to catch.
 
I see.
 
And there are 'voting rings' who conspire to give each other rep even if they're not actually the same person (and thus not sockpuppets in the strictest sense). That sort of thing can be caught by the serial upvote algorithm.
 
@Randal'Thor I'd say that more evidence would be required to prove a case of sockpuppeting, e.g. that the two users post from the same IP address.
 
7:33 PM
My first example there with Deusovi is a case of good intentions resulting in behaviour which is undesirable according to the SE system. The second example with the voting rings shows how bad intentions can be thwarted by the algorithm.
 
@Randal'Thor You just made me think of this: Anything You Upvote, I'll Upvote Better. haha
 
@RosieF Sure. I said a good sign, not a conclusive one :-)
 
To the tune of Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better :P
 
@Randal'Thor But there's behaviour which seems legit to me but would look the same -- to a mindless script -- like voting for the person. Say you're having trouble learning/installing an app/OS/something which is discussed on SO but not by many of the users there. Among the few users that use that same thing, one of those users writes particularly well-written answers addressing just the sorts of questions you'd ask. So you end up upvoting his answers.
 
@RosieF Yep, there are definitely a decent amount of false positives and false negatives.
But what else can you expect from a mindless algorithm?
 
7:38 PM
Yes, it could happen. And I believe I have done it - upvoting more than 3 helpful answers of the same person in a short period. Because I first need to test and see what works for me, and then after I have finally figured it out, I could upvote the answers that helped me.
 
And it's too much work for human mods to handle. At least on SO, and plenty of other sites too.
 
The algorithm seems to care about what percentage of your votes in a time period are for a given person, as well as the absolute number
if you upvote 30 things, 7 of them happening to be by one person, that will probably be caught less than upvoting 8 things, 6 from one person
 
8:36 PM
@Randal'Thor In case you didn't notice already; Joe Derksen in the comments of this answer of yours is on a good way of solving the puzzle :)
 
8:58 PM
Damn, @Sconibulus, you serpent, you solved it while I was out! Sorry, I'm acting the giddy goat there. I suppose I should have a lions heart and lose graciously. Well done :P
 
 
1 hour later…
10:06 PM
Heh. I came across an answer in the First Posts review queue from some user2925291 who had this avatar. Was about to flag as a possible impersonator of Marius, but I had the presence of mind to open the user's profile in a new tab and it was Marius! Review audits FTL.
 
@Randal'Thor Yeah, I still think it's weird how we have review audits here.
@Randal'Thor Also, I can confirm that multiple voting rings have happened here before. It is a legitimate problem.
 
@Deusovi We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, and I promised you a meta post to propose getting rid of them. It's still on my list!
 
@Randal'Thor Oh, did you? I have a horrible memory. That's great, though - you could put it far more eloquently than I ever could. I'll definitely be upvoting it!
 
Not much response to this meta post yet, btw ... which is a pity, because I have at least two possible follow-up meta posts planned from that.
 
Oh, whoops! I meant to answer that a while back, but I forgot to. I'll write up something quick right now, and I'm sure Emrakul or GPR can come by and fill in the details. (We've actually been discussing it a bit in modchat.)
 
10:19 PM
Yeah, I bet. The whole business of plagiarism is a tricky issue to deal with.
Hence my several planned meta posts about it (some of which may even turn out to be dupes when I come to write them up).
 
@Randal'Thor Aaand posted!
 
@Deusovi Thanks!
That answer touches on one of the other issues I was planning to post about: how do we define a chestnut? (Of course there's no hard-and-fast definition in general, but there needs to be some guideline for what counts as a chestnut on this site, when that's used as the metric to decide whether or not to delete people's questions.)
 
Yep, I figured you would ask that.
I'd define it in terms of how many sources you can find it in (that don't point to another).
 
I have a few specific examples I'm planning to cite (which may lead to certain posts changing their deleted/undeleted status).
 
If you can find it in at least n places (my first instinct was around n=3, though that may be horribly flawed in ways I cannot yet predict), then I think it'd be fine.
Aw, we don't have Mathjax here.
 
10:31 PM
@Deusovi Yeah, that sounds like a good criterion. I think it was Jon Ericson who first came up with that on meta.PSE.
It'd be good to run it on a bunch of test cases though, since there's a lot of subjectivity in what results Google shows to different people searching the same text (e.g. the text of a question here).
 
@Randal'Thor Oh, really? Huh, I hadn't seen that.
And sometimes question text is changed a lot to hide the original source. That, plus reframings of questions (eg blue eyes vs cheating wives vs dots) makes it a bit more difficult to distinguish between chestnuts and non-chestnuts.
 
@Deusovi Hmm, it looks like I was misremembering slightly. In this answer, Jon says that if the same text appears in hundreds of places, we don't have to worry about copyright ... but then later on he says "If you can't find the exact wording, the puzzle is likely a chestnut".
 
Really? I find that strange.
 
But what you're saying now is that the whole exact-wording issue is basically a red herring.
 
But maybe it's just because I've seen cases where it's not a chestnut and yet you can't find the exact wording (eg every puzzle made up by us users, or rephrased sufficiently well to disguise its origin)
 
10:36 PM
If the same puzzle (exact wording or not) is in multiple places all over the internet, then it's a chestnut and no source has to be cited. If the same puzzle (even if paraphrased) has one clear source, then anyone posting it here should include attribution.
Did I get that right?
 
Yeah, pretty much.
Like I said, we'd need to iron out the details. I might make a meta post (or more realistically, get Emrakul to make a meta post) clarifying this. But if there's a specific identifiable place where a puzzle originated, then a source would be necessary.
 
I wonder if it might be time to have a new "Policy on plagiarism" post to make all this completely clear, and tag it .
 
That sounds good to me.
 
@Deusovi Yeah, hopefully my next couple of meta posts will help with that ironing out of details.
 
Cool, sounds good! Just wondering, what are the planned subjects? (And how many meta posts?)
 
10:40 PM
Well, one of them I've already mentioned: the issue of what exactly defines a chestnut. (Jon has talked about it a couple of times in previous meta posts, but as far as I can tell there's never been one devoted to that issue specifically).
The other is something which was mentioned in here a couple of days ago: if you find a non-chestnut puzzle somewhere which you'd like to post, but the original source also includes the solution, is it acceptable to post it without a link at first and then edit in attribution only once it's solved?
I imagine that last one's going to be a tricky issue, with strong arguments both ways.
 
@Randal'Thor Hm, yeah. That is a tough one.
 

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