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12:47 AM
So, the wiki says that it's for puzzles "where the answerer must identify a puzzle type based on deliberately limited information about its nature". I.e. you get given some "working" or "notes" or "moves", etc and have to work out what type of puzzle was being solved.
Should it be expanded to include any puzzle where you have to work backwards? For example, where you know the type of puzzle, but you're given a solution state and some working, and have to determine the initial conditions?
 
That feels to me like quite a different kind of puzzle.
 
1:03 AM
0
Q: My question says it was edited an hour ago by someone else but they didn't change anything?

Neal DavisMaybe it doesn't matter, but it seems odd that someone could edit my post and get some modicum of credit for doing so when they literally changed nothing. This person has something like 20k rep so it's kind of weird. Is there anyway for me to roll back the edit the way I do on other stack exchang...

 
@Alconja I say it counts
 
Yeah.. I'm not 100%, it's definitely an activity I feel like could be described as "reverse puzzling", but as @GarethMcCaughan says, it's quite different from the current tag definition.
 
i.stack.imgur.com has an expired SSL certificate, images are going to be broken for a little while
 
Yikes. (assume it won't take them long to fix that though)
 
1:21 AM
Looks like they just fixed it
 
 
3 hours later…
4:17 AM
Re:
3 hours ago, by Alconja
Should it be expanded to include any puzzle where you have to work backwards? For example, where you know the type of puzzle, but you're given a solution state and some working, and have to determine the initial conditions?
@Alconja, have you seen the tag?
"retrograde analysis is a technique employed to determine which moves were played leading up to a given position. "
Think it originated with Chess problems but can apply to much more.
In chess problems, retrograde analysis is a technique employed to determine which moves were played leading up to a given position. While this technique is rarely needed for solving ordinary chess problems, there is a whole subgenre of chess problems in which it is an important part; such problems are known as retros. Retros may ask, for example, for a mate in two, but the main puzzle is in explaining the history of the position. This may be important to determine, for example, if castling is disallowed or an en passant pawn capture is possible. Other problems may ask specific questions relating...
(just to understand a puzzle statement in the first place can require a kind of retrograde analysis)
 
@humn Interesting. I'd seen the tag, but didn't think of it... it does seem like a better fit, but as it stands, the wiki would still need modification...
In my example (which is ready to post but I figured it might as well wait for another couple of days for fusion fortnight), I've got a where you need to use some to determine which clues belong to which spaces. I.e. you work both towards a solution, and back towards the "normal" crossword starting state...
 
4:33 AM
Very cool.
Also found a better word than"bramble" for a crossword that has the same clue crossing itself: "pleach"
Pleaching or plashing is a technique of interweaving living and dead branches through a hedge for stock control. Trees are planted in lines, the branches are woven together to strengthen and fill any weak spots until the hedge thickens. Branches in close contact may grow together, due to a natural phenomenon called inosculation, a natural graft. Pleach also means weaving of thin, whippy stems of trees to form a basketry effect. == HistoryEdit == Pleaching or plashing (an early synonym) was common in gardens from late medieval times to the early eighteenth century, to create shaded paths, or...
 
:) I like it. (now to find a way to work it into conversation today)
 
(the branches don't have to be dead and are often from the same bush,tree,vine)
... mainly a drive-by, heading over to tag fusion to leave a little more graffiti ...
 
After you mentioned "bramble" last time, I started wondering if you could do a crossword in three dimensions, where each view "flattened" into a valid 2D crossword
 
i think GPR's "linked word squares" is almost 3D
 
true
 
4:38 AM
17
Q: Linked word squares

GentlePurpleRainThe following are clues to 18 six-letter words that must be filled into the following three linked word squares. The clues are in no particular order, but just for fun, I tried to arrange them to tell a little story (which has no relevance to the puzzle's solution). Overlapping portions of ...

... you might like the crossword graffiti to be posted at the tag fusion chat in a few minutes ... bye from here for now ...
 
5:14 AM
@Alconja "determine which clues belong to which spaces". You mean, like a fitword? puzzler.com/puzzles-a-z/fitword
 
@RosieF Somewhat.. But you're still given clues, not words. Imagine a normal crossword , but where you're not sure which clues belong to which positions in the grid (though in mine, I've given some restrictions on this so it's not impossible)
 
5:46 AM
@Alconja Ah, I see the difference. Like the "jigsaw" element in the late lamented Araucaria's "alphabetical jigsaws". Only we couldn't call them "jigsaws" here because that'd be confusing!
 
had to google it, but yes, somewhat closer to that
 
 
6 hours later…
12:16 PM
@Alenanno did you ever get that formula to work?
 
@dcfyj No XD I think the source of confusion is that, having Libreoffice and not actually Excel, I have the same things in different places. And it was also late so I didn't insist. Did it work for you?
 
Yeah, I wouldn't have sent it to you if it hadn't :P
 
@dcfyj Eheh yeah. I'm still surprised that Excel/Calc/etc can't do it with a much simpler formula. It seems it's something you'd need in an office. lol
 
2 days left of mechanical puzzles. Then we can focus on Unconventional Tag Fusion :P
 
=COUNTIF($A1:$F1,A1)>1 is a pretty simple formula, in my opinion
@BeastlyGerbil I put mine out early :P
 
12:20 PM
@dcfyj Well, a much clearer one then ahah :D I'm off to eat, I'll give it another try later. Thanks again.
 
ok
 
@dcfyj i've got a nice idea for mine ( + ), but i'm just holding on to it
 
I had mine done mid-fortnight so I just put it out instead of waiting
Sadly, it's a concept that people don't seem keen on solving :(
 
Which one?
 
The minesweeper crossword
It's super long and that's probably why
 
12:24 PM
I gave up on it, too tricky for me :P
I can't solve a normal crossword so I had no chance
 
@BeastlyGerbil It really isn't though, the clues are all pretty straight forward. Although some were more ambiguous then I thought they were...
Thus the problem of being the creator and knowing the answer :(
I guess people are still working on it, but I'm not getting any feedback, so I don't know
 
@dcfyj I had to answer my own question as everyone got stuck and it was abandoned
And I practically spelt out what to do in hint 2
 
Can anyone who tried solving this puzzle tell me at which part they're stuck so I know what the next hint should be?
 
I looked at it briefly but I need to have a cube in hand to make my life easier. I could probably do it in my head but keeping track of the turns is rather difficult...
I understand how to orient the cube, but I don't know where the turns are so that doesn't help much :P
 
@BeastlyGerbil: Yeah, and some of the angel names (?) in the related questions have letters UDLRFB capitalized - presumably those are the instructions. I can't do it right now, but if we rotate the cube given by the gif in that way, it should produce a message. — Deusovi ♦ Oct 24 at 15:47
 
12:35 PM
What angel names?
 
HNQ
@LukasRotter I just noticed, a 500 bounty!? :P
You now have less rep in real lief than you do in the GIF!
 
Looks to me like deusovi missed some
I'm seeing RUL DBF L F RD
 
@BeastlyGerbil Yeah, I'm planning to decrease my rep to <500 with questions. I.e. starting a 500 bounty on all my questions that don't get solved within x hours.
 
What, why!?
 
I can read the notation just fine but it doesn't do me much good as visualizing where the letters are as I'm turning is incredibly difficult
 
12:40 PM
@BeastlyGerbil I don't care about rep (at least not on Puzzling). And I think it'd be funny if someone who doesn't know me visits my low-rep profile and sees how many posts I've already made :P
 
Don't go too far down or you'll have issues doing stuff :P
 
@dcfyj True, I'll have to set my priorities :P I think the lowest I'm willing to get is 125, so I'm still able to downvote anytime.
 
Does anyone know of an online rubik's cube that you can write letters on? :P
 
@dcfyj is row 19 of your thing correct?
oh wait
sorry, I can't count; ignore me
 
I think the fact that most people view Puzzling at work plays a major factor in why my puzzle isn't solved yet, since most people don't have rubik's cubes at work :P
 
12:52 PM
No, mine's at home :P
Row 19?
 
@LukasRotter I see a pattern...
 
lol, I think there might be weird messages here...
 
2 days ago, by Lukas Rotter
My formula: 1) Add visual components like images or GIFS 2) make it a cipher (because that's all I can) 3) Put "weird" in the title and maybe variations like "strange" in the body. This at least worked for me to get over 10 upvotes :P (only questions following this formula achieved that)
 
Let me predict your next question title: 'A weird website message' :P
 
@BeastlyGerbil It'll most likely be a weird, spooky halloween puzzle.
 
12:55 PM
lol, this so isn't fair to Bolt
 
With a 500 bounty :P
 
@BeastlyGerbil I'm planning to make the next one an easy puzzle, but my puzzle after the halloween one probably will need a 500 bounty again :P
 
Only a few days till halloween, better hurry!
 
@BeastlyGerbil It's fortunately not a hard/time-consuming puzzle to make, and I have plenty of time on the weekend :)
 
I don't :(
I have to write a horror story over the half term
Which I suppose kind of is related to Halloween...
 
1:03 PM
@GarethMcCaughan are you working on minesweeper?
 
1:15 PM
@LukasRotter I think I'm solving your question now, using excel and a rubik's solver I'll just need to figure out the orientation of the letters after I do all the moves :P
 
@dcfyj Dont forget that there are also I's capitalized in the names :P
 
Yeah I saw those, i=counterclockwise?
aka inverted?
 
@dcfyj I'd say inverted, yeah. Because Di for example is clockwise.
 
?
That's not proper notation then...
In normal notation D is clockwise and D' is counter-clockwise
 
@dcfyj Sorry, you're right, I got confused because I forgot to rotate the cube in my head... that's exactly why I used this when making the puzzle:
 
1:25 PM
ok, so my thoughts on "i" are correct then
 
@dcfyj Yes
 
So the moves pattern is actually RUL'D'BF'L'F'RD'
Good to know
 
Good progress
 
who? me? I'm just solving a mechanical puzzle, It's my forte :P
There's a reason I have a collection at home ^^
 
@dcfyj yes, looking at the minesweeper
 
1:28 PM
Woohoo! my puzzle will get solved!
 
ignoring other people's work and seeing what I can figure out on my own to begin with
 
@dcfyj good luck then, I have no idea
 
some of the clues baffle me considerably
 
@GarethMcCaughan They have some wrong answers in there's so be mindful of that if you look at it
Like what?
 
you mean mistakes on your part or deliberate wrong answers indicated somhow?
*somehow
 
1:29 PM
The com wiki's have numbers as answers that are incorrect
 
oh, that's OK; as I say, I'm attacking it on my own for now
 
As in they came up with the wrong solution for those particular clues
Knowing you, you'll have it solved in no time :P
quipqiup won't work for this though :D
 
examples of bafflement: second clue on row 20 seems to have to be making 2n-1 where n is [0]7, 25 or 43 out of 2+2+2 + "two followers, one of each"; n=25 and n=43 seem impossible but then it seems the "two followers" have to be two 3s and I don't see what "one of each" can mean
 
Two followers don't have to be 3s, there are other things that can follow
 
row 36 first clue says "the lower of this line's two factors" and "this line" surely means either the number 36 (no, that's got lots of factors) or the result of concatenating all the digits on the line (no, that has to end in 12 which already gives us too many factors). Maybe it means the sum of all the digits on the line, but that really isn't what it says.
 
1:37 PM
That one might be a little poorly phrased
 
unless "followers" just means "numbers that aren't 0" I can't see what else it could mean that would allow anything other than 3,3 for that clue on row 20. Later prime numbers? Has to be 3+3. Larger (than 2) numbers? Has to be 3+3. Numbers 1 greater than a prime number? Has to be 3+3.
"that one" = row 36? hmm, ok
incidentally, would you like to clarify whether "lower of the line's two factors" considers 1 an acceptable factor or not? I mean, either it's saying that "the line" (whatever that turns out to mean) is prime and the first digit is 1, or else that it's pq or p^2 and the first digit is p. (If you see what I mean.)
 
Yes, I didn't phrase row 36 #1 all that well it seems.
 
I guess you include 1 as a factor and it's going to be 1,2112; but if you don't include 1 it could also be 2,2112 (factors are 2,4 not counting 1,8).
(assuming, as the least implausible of my guesses, that there's an implicit "total of")
 
If you complete column a that'll answer you question methinks
 
indeed it will, but I might need that one to work out the rest of column a
also baffling: "the fifth in a certain spiral" (maybe refers to the Fibonacci numbers but while they're kinda associated with various spiral-y things I wouldn't say that the F numbers themselves are in a spiral; of course it's also ambiguous whether the fifth F number is 3 or 5)
 
1:42 PM
I made a quick puzzle
 
I don't believe so, with the way a interacts with the rows, I don't think it'll be a problem.
 
but these all seem like surmountable obstacles
 
what line is the spiral one?
(In my master copy the clues spill off the page so it's a little hard to find stuff sometimes)
 
@Sconibulus what the hell is the second thing on line 5?
@dcfyj row 16
@Sconibulus line 4 is very informative
 
Looks like maine to me
 
1:45 PM
ah
perhaps all US residents are intimately familiar with the shapes of all their states
 
Or some other state
pull up a USA map and compare
 
I can just about recognize Texas and Florida. Maybe Alaska and/or Hawaii. Maaaaybe California.
 
They all have pretty distinctive shapes (the ones you mentioned) the others are a little more ambiguous
 
yeah, it's Maine
 
So paper maine? weird
penguin minus something or other, can't tell what it is...
 
1:51 PM
Hmm, I thought the fourth line was the worst, the constraint made it hardest to make, but it got solved really quickly
 
ream maine, tux minus t = ux (to go with fly minus y)
@Sconibulus fourth was easiest. Still stuck on first, not least because knowing what letter it's going to be only tells me that boar starts with B which I already knew.
(assuming it is a boar; it looks like one)
 
Boar eyes bluejay power button sun?
 
Its Boris Johnson
 
Sid
That bird on the first reminds me of Blue J...
 
Boar eyes J(ay) On Sun
 
1:53 PM
i guess... feels like a stretch to me lol
 
Sid
Isn't that guy a Russian Spy? lol..
 
(while Beastly was solving the first one here I was doing it in my answer :-) )
 
lol
 
I'm still confused by the last one, though. Ticket axes? Hatchets? Choppers?
Cuts?
 
tick could be check as well, as it's called a checkmark in the US
 
1:56 PM
surely must be tick because (1) ticket is a word and (2) we need a T in sixth place.
 
It isn't actually tick
 
oh!
ah, mark?
 
market cuts?
that's viable
 
market cuts doesn't make much sense though
 
I thought the last two meant X's
 
1:57 PM
market forces does but I don't see how an axe indicates force (I mean, it kinda does, but it's a stretch)
 
makes more sense than some of the other things we've said lol
 
or access
 
access!
brilliant!
 
ooh, good one
 
yay!
 
1:58 PM
(sorry, my "access!" was crediting Lukas, not finding it independently)
 
That was a fun ten-minutes puzzle
(or at least I thought so, solvers may disagree)
 
Good thing @Sconibulus isn't the only american in here :P you would've been stuck on that one for a while I think haha
I don't think @BeastlyGerbil was in here judging by his comments haha
 
indeed
yes, it was fun
 
No just realised that everyone had already solved it @dcfyj
 
though part of me feels that joking about the UK's impending self-destruction is in bad taste
I am actually strictly speaking an American -- I was born in the US. But I haven't lived there for many many many years.
 
2:01 PM
@GarethMcCaughan I think you made a typo on the last one. You said the 6th letter was 5 not t :P
 
oh damn it
 
I left the US at age <4 -- too early to have learned state shapes.
 
The US may yet join you in that self-destruction pattern
although it fortunately isn't looking like it
 
Sid
World War 3 is imminent.... Just a matter of when..
 
2:03 PM
its already started...
 
@Sconibulus yeah. @Sid I really don't think it is. @BeastlyGerbil too cynical, I think.
 
The world can't help itself. Humans love war too much. I'll stick to puzzling though
 
Sid
Agreed with @BeastlyGerbil .. Foolish to count on the human side of human beings...
 
Just found this brilliant website, I think we might have to worry about dolphins more than anything else :P anti-dolphin.org/fear.php
 
"So long and thanks for all the fish"?
 
2:12 PM
@dcfyj Well, I never read that book (do you mean the website is based on it?). If it's as entertaining as the first paragraphs of this website, I might read it :P
 
It's a quote from Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. A rather short book, also a movie
 
@dcfyj talking of quotations, I'm going to guess now (on essentially zero information) that the final answer to yours is going to end up being "To be or not to be" simply because that can be compressed to fit in what seems like the rather small amount of "space" that will actually be available for it.
 
Well, it's also the name of one of the later books in the pentology
is that the right word?
 
That's true, I forgot about that
 
@Sconibulus I think "pentalogy"
but the actual correct term is "trilogy" in this case
book 4 was explicitly called something like "the fourth book in the Hitch-Hiker trilogy" and book 5 something similar with "increasingly badly named" or something of the sort
@dcfyj damn, I appear to have got a contradiction in your crossword
(for the avoidance of doubt, of course this means I've cocked up not that you have)
 
2:18 PM
oh, right, I remember that now [the fifth installment in the increasingly inaptly named Hitchhiker's Trilogy]
 
that's it
@dcfyj row 12 clue 3 has to be 25 or 52 ("the Fourth, made with a First")
then row 23 clue 1 has to be 52 or 25 respectively
and it has to be over at the left because 2+5=7
and column A has nothing larger than 3, so row 23 begins 25
and in column B the 5 has to have spaces above and below
(because the "singles" are 5, but perhaps the reasoning that got me there was wrong)
so row 22 has a space in second position
so also in first position because just one number
which is impossible because no spaces in column A
 
@dcfyj I managed to solve using a concatenated formula (not sure if it's something we mentioned yesterday, but it's close), and it does work. I'm trying to make it tell me which values are the duplicates though, for now it just counts them.
:D
 
wow, Excel is user-hostile
so I made a mistake somewhere in attacking @dcfyj's crossword, which I was doing in an Excel spreadsheet. So I take a copy of the sheet and paste it into a completely new spreadsheet. I go back to the first one and hit control-Z ... and what it does is to undo my paste operation over in the other spreadsheet.
I have this theory that Microsoft have a UX team that goes through their products looking for little ways to make them actively obnoxious in ways no one would ever implement just by accident. This one goes on the list.
 
Yeah, Excel doesn't really believe in the Seperate Windows: Seperate Instances thing
 
@dcfyj but wait, I can't be wrong about column B's singles being 5
because row 3 clue 1 has to be 2+5 and must be 25 not 52 because no 5s in column A
and the first two things in column B are both singles
so that 5 has to be one of them
so I really do seem to have a contradiction unless I've misunderstood something very fundamental.
 
2:29 PM
@GarethMcCaughan Horrible UX.
 
sorry, I should clarify that "because 2+5=7" near the start of my comment a little earlier is referring to number lengths even though the fact that 2+5=7 is also quite separately being used to work out what the actual numbers are.
(I seriously do think I have arrived at a contradiction, and I don't see that anything I've assumed is in much doubt, and if @dcfyj is willing to give me a hint at what I have done wrong I would be glad of it. But of course don't if you think it improper.)
 
2:48 PM
I was afk, so that's a lot of info to process lol
@GarethMcCaughan So I'm not really sure where the issue is...
 
man. someone's trigger-happy on the downvote to stack reader's answer to rand's latest
 
So I'm not seeing what the issue is @GarethMcCaughan...
I've reread what you said, and I'm confused where you're confused
 
@Rubio Someone downvoted the question too.
Honestly though, that answer was pretty bad in its initial form.
 
heh. so they did. rude.
well yeah but it was downvoted in the first 60 seconds of its existence, and it got edited within another, what, 30
 
Oh, actually, it's my fault.
I flagged it as VLQ because it had no explanation.
Then when it was edited, Community marked the flag helpful and applied a downvote.
 
2:55 PM
i was gonna whine that this puzzle feels dangerously close to "guess what i'm thinking", but of course who am i to judge the mighty rand ;)
 
And now I can't retract the flag.
 
aww. bummer
 
@Rubio There may be various things that come close to fitting (like the two answers provided so far), but I think there'll only be one answer that fits everything perfectly.
If not, it'll be a massive coincidence.
 
@dcfyj I'm confused because I seem to have proved that there's a space in column A, but column A is not allowed to contain spaces.
 
oh i'm sure that's true. there's a lot of possible ideas to sift through though to come up with one that fits. "trivia" definitely is appropriate here
 
2:58 PM
I'm sorry that the reasoning that gets there is a bit involved, but that's the nature of these things.
 
How have you proved a space in A?
 
(Of course you're not in the least obliged to read any of it)
 
Sid
Nah, that's not "a guess what I am thinking"- That is sort of a trivia but it is tagged as such. So, you can't blame Rand :P
 
You said in row 22 right?
 
@dcfyj yes, row 22
I can go through the reasoning again but it won't be any different from what I wrote above (though I could e.g. do it in backward order -- space in A22 because X, X because Y, Y because Z, etc. -- if that would help)
 
2:59 PM
If I saw right, you said a space at 22b meant a space at 22a, but I don't see how
 
because row 22 "has only one number" of three digits
so if 22b is a space and 22a isn't, there's a 1-digit number in 22a
 
Oh, you're missunderstanding the clue
 
which there isn't
oh!
 
@sid yeah i know - it's exactly trivia, which makes it a wide mental search of a lot of possibilities. should be fun to see how long it takes someone to hit on it
 
so how else could I understand "This line only has one number"? All digits equal? I should ignore the spaces?
 
3:01 PM
Row 22 only has one number as in all 3 digits are the same, (not necessarily together). Perhaps digit would've been a better word there.
 
OK
is that what it means in row 18 too?
 
yes
 
and 29
ok, well that makes more sense
 
I thought that was clear from the separate Parenthesis groups, my bad
 
so there was a thing in the rubric that said "when a clue refers to the whole line, the bullets are tabbed over a little more"
and most of the places where bullets are tabbed over a little more are ones introduced by "this line only has one number"
and in fact I don't see any others that I can interpret as "referring to the whole line"
which is why I thought that was what it had to mean
 
3:04 PM
Yeah, I used to have [] to signify those, but They were removed in lieu of ugly formatting
 
I suppose "refers to the whole line" means not "treats the whole line as one number" but "has a single description covering all the numbers on one line"
so, OK, I completely misunderstood that. Thanks for clearing it up.
 
I added a clarification to the question
let me know if that makes sense
 
3:23 PM
yup
I have maybe 40% of the cells now
who knows?, they might even be right
 
I probably should've mentioned where I put the clarification lol
Couldn't tell you, I'd have to see it :P
@GarethMcCaughan Once you get far enough in the grid you should be able to check yourself to know if you're wrong or not
 
well, yes
 
As in you'll need zero input from me ^^
 
I seem to have another contradiction, but I expect it's me being stupid. (About row 20, which we've talked about before. It looks like it has to begin 25. I now think the thing we take 2n-1 from is 2+5=7 (there's a lot of implicit summing in this thing) so our 5 digits for the second clue have to add up to 2x7-1=13. That's three 2s and, presumably, 3,4 for the "two followers". ...continues
... BUT the square/cube clue in column G seems to require 20g to be a 3, which seems to mean that the "you and two friends" in column H is 2 or 4, neither of which seems very likely.
I'm not asking for help here, just venting :-)
oh, wait, there's another way to organize column H
 
Funny how typing things helps solve
 
3:43 PM
yeah
 
now I'm confused about the "Leap Year" which I seem to have proved has to be 3, and I don't really understand how any single digit can be the answer to that (except maaaaaybe 4, though 4AD is before there were any leap years)
 
@BeastlyGerbil Kinda weird
 
Its clearly going to be a pumpkin
 
hey rand - your puzzle has motivated me to post a puzzle of my own, stealing blata.....er, i mean, faithfully drawing on verbiage from yours. hope that's cool with you ;)
 
3:49 PM
You'd do better to @ tag him
 
@BeastlyGerbil I reverse-googled the images, it thinks all of them are oranges :D
 
@Randal'Thor oops you're right. tagging. hey rand - your puzzle has motivated me to post a puzzle of my own, stealing blata.....er, i mean, faithfully drawing on verbiage from yours. hope that's cool with you ;)
 
@Rubio You were too late to edit your post?
 
yeah think so
 
@Rubio Of course! Always happy to inspire a fellow puzzler :-)
 
3:58 PM
@dcfyj wow, it took me a long time to figure out how the minesweepering came in
 
So you noticed? should make the rest of the puzzle super quick hehe
 
yeah, finally I noticed. D'oh.
 
lol
I can see why someone would miss it, but it's super obvious when you know it's there
 
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