Not a bar, but plays one on TV

9:04 AM

@trogdor Litterally, fusion, that wasn't hand-made if you are wondering. I used Google's deep style services to transfer the sumi-e painting style to the real-world cat picture

trogdor

oh

still cute either way

Derpy

for some reason, it is one of the best results I got.

trogdor

it looks pretty good

Derpy

I though trying to remove the "dark" shadows in some of the picture corners but that almost give the picture a "dirty" look, like that was an actual painting on paper someone scanerized.

The "stains" almost looking like ink, like someone touched the paper with dirty hands.

trogdor

9:32 AM

neat

Derpy

10:21 AM

A new creature for @BESW collection of "rejected D&D monsters"

(Think it is fanmade, but you never know)

BESW

10:36 AM

It appears to be An Actual Thing That Made It Through Revisions And Approval.

trogdor

11:28 AM

lol

trogdor

11:40 AM

Man still the confusing mechanics I see

Derpy

12:41 PM

@trogdor "Gatcha" design problem.

You want to sell new "characters/items"

trogdor

yeah

Derpy

so you need new items. But the new item has to have something new.

trogdor

but like, they also make the game intentionally esoteric so people who play it feel "in"

Derpy

to be fair, even the games that started simple became esoteric as the character variations where exhausted and so new stuff had to be made up.

See the Pokemon CCG. At first they tried to keep selling new cards just by releasing new pokemons cards.

and then they started adding new mechanics on the game.

Yu-Gi is probably even worse.

Syncro-summon?

Pendulum?

Get even worse when the gatcha maker has control over your opponents.

for example in gatcha videogames. In that case they can simply build new content so that it is actually tied to the new just-released mechanic....

This in turn forces sales on their customer since suddenly old strategies aren't viable anymore

I don't play gatcha, but I know of a blatant example.

The One Piece mobile gatcha game once added a variation of Kaido, one of the four emperor in the anime. That "card" had a very unique ability - at the end of every turn it caused high damage to every enemy. As a result, that card was able to clear most content alone, by basically just waiting.

People invested into getting that card from the gatcha pull.

Then the enemy hp was scaled so that the originally "high" end of turn damage was no longer viable.

And even later a new "ad-hoc" debuf was made that specifically blocked end-turn damage.

Other cards received similar treatments.

trogdor

Yu-Gi Oh was already too complicated when I was in high school XD

I actually played it for a little while, and mechanophile that I am I still could not keep up with all the stuuuuuf they put into that game at the time

Derpy

12:54 PM

After the enemy HP started to scale out to very high numbers, people realized that fixed damage cards weren't viable anymore so they switched to % based damage ones.... Those would not suffer from high enemy hp since their damage was a percentage of the enemy hitpoints in the first place... so higher hp => higher cut.

Wonder what? Bosses started to block "% damage" specifically.

So again, cards that once were great became trash for new content.

And reminder - people paid for these cards.

Moral: if you play a gatcha videogame, never spend any money on it.

trogdor

I've also heard a little about a game that apparently has Gatcha mechanics,.... the name has escaped me but it's been being talked about in the last couple weeks or so

Derpy

@trogdor Genshin Impact?

trogdor

yes that

Derpy

I was the one mentioning that.

trogdor

like the characters are Gatcha or something?

Derpy

12:57 PM

That is an odd one.

trogdor

ah ok but also I have seen other sources mention it too

not just around here I think

Derpy

It makes me curious in a way, because it has usual gatcha trash applied over a game that goes in the opposite direction.

I can elaborate if you wish, I talked about it in other rooms to but if you are interested I can safely repeat what I said here too.

trogdor

huh

ok

I am curious to know exactly what you mean by that at least

Derpy

Well, first of all.

As you can see, it has 3d graphics, an open world, actual cutscenes with dialogue (dubbed in at least 4 different languages....), quests etc....

The usual Smartphone gatcha game has little story, low-end graphics (usually the units are just static images on cards or pixel 2d sprites, but there are some exceptions), uses Visual Novel - style cutscenes and so on.

trogdor

I wouldn't know any of that but fair enough

Derpy

1:11 PM

BTW, when I say "Visual Novel" style cutscene I am referring to that style often used in visual novels games that employs 2d character images for the dialogues instead of rendering them in the 3d game world. Many JRPG employ them too.

Examples: Disgaea (strategy game on consoles/pc)

Why this matter? Because it should be evident that probably making a full 3d game costs a lot more that making a "card based" 2d one.

So, what I am trying to say here is that the cost for making content in Genshin Impact is probably far greater than making content for a card game.

trogdor

ah

ok

Derpy

Take for example adding a new character. We are talking about making a new picture VS making a new 3d model with animation, voice overs and so on.

So, my first "question" is if they will be able to sustain the game on a long period.

Gatcha makes me think of low cost production aimed at whale-fishing.

In case you don't know the term, Whale-fishing refers to the fact that the game is free, and instead of trying to sell microtransactions to a large number of customer that will spend little money... the system is crafted to milk out the few "whales" that are going to spend thousands of dollars to get their favorite items and characters.

This is also the reason MANY gatcha games are quite... fanservice based.

trogdor

I'm aware of it yeah

Derpy

It is a predatory system at its base, built to abuse players with gambling problems.

trogdor

I actually first learned it watching a show about Las Vegas

Derpy

1:21 PM

Anyway, what really matters here is that probably Genshin has higher production costs.

trogdor

well no one said Whale Fishing but people said Whale a lot in context and stuff

Derpy

Second aspect, popularity... Well, what can I say... the game went viral. First, it is free, so many young players will play for free and never spend a $. Still, that helps to spread the word and get more people to play until a whale bites the bait.

That said, I think that we can agree on a fact. The art style is nice, the world is pretty decent too. And it is Anime style.

A problem that many JRPG have is that often the "world" isn't that lively. NPC often are stuck in place, not walking around the city. World isn't open and the locations are quite linear and filled with invisible walls...

Grass often is very poor and make Ocarina of Time look good...

^ this is Sword Art Online Aliciziation.

quite recent.

What picture seem nicer? What world more "lively"?

Genshin One, probably

trogdor

I wouldn't disagree with you on that point

Derpy

So, you see that Genshin at least artistically looks better than many paid-for JRPG options console gamers have.

Notice: this doesn't mean it is full hd ultra high definition. Just that the artistic side is somehow better imho.

trogdor

I would say it looks like that but I don't know if I can say that justifies putting Gatcha in it?

XD

Derpy

1:34 PM

Think for example Zelda games. It is not like Wind Waker was ultra HD like Final Fantasy.... but the style "worked". Solar, nice, cute, makes you smile, and most of all doesn't seem low quality at a glance.

Even if the texture actually are plain, they don't look plain in the full picture.

So, so far I just said why I think the game manage to become quite viral.

nice to see, plays like an actual JRPG game instead of a gatcha (think the various Tales of ....) and it is free to try.

now the gatcha part.

As you guessed, yep, the game uses gatcha for characters unlock.

I think you get a few character for free, but the others are from gatcha pull.

Weapons can also be gotten from gatcha/lootboxes but only the high rarity ones seem to be exclusive to the gatcha.

I don't know how of a difference that makes.

I mean, I don't know if the gatcha weapon are so superior that they are needed.

On top of that, the game also employs some other mechanics that are usually found in free mobile gatcha games.

First, it is online only even if the game is meant to be single player. This is probably an attempt (probably going to fail in a few months when hackers will reverse-engineer the code) to keep the game unmoddable on PC, so that player can't just unlock characters without paying.

trogdor

@Derpy I hadn't guessed so much as half remembered

Derpy

Second, it employs a Stamina system. Stamina is a mechanic found in free games mostly that requires you to spend "stamina" to use some mechanics. Stamina recharges at a low rate, but you can buy refills using the in-game premium currency.

trogdor

yeah

Derpy

For example, the once famous Candy Crush - a match 3 free game on mobile - gives you 5? lives, every time you lose a level you lose a life, they regen every 60 minutes I think? Out of lives? either wait it out or pay to get more

trogdor

I have avoided all games like that but I am aware of it existing

yeah Candy Crush is well known for sure

Derpy

1:46 PM

Genshin has a stamina system too. Not everything is walled behind stamina but some special bosses requires you to pay stamina to get their drops. So basically, to farm more items you need more stamina.

trogdor

eww

Derpy

Now, the weird part.

As I said so far, the game is probably meant to be a JRPG at its core.

I must give that to them, the world is decent, the lore is decent (for a free game I mean, probably wouldn't stand up to BESW inspection), character design is kinda cute and generally you can see some care in the game.

Weapons have panels with "lore" text, you can get books with random stories that are there just for immersion, can chat with npc just to see random trivia for added background and so on.

So, if you ever played games like Dragonquest, the Tales of series, Sword Art Online, Neptunia and so on.... you would probably like that.

trogdor

I have played I think a Tales game and a Neptunia game

Derpy

And what do those games play like?

trogdor

like JRPG's

Derpy

1:57 PM

You live your adventure, at your pace.

trogdor

I mean yeah,... I don't remember the Tales one as well because it was probably at least like,... 12 years ago or so maybe?

Derpy

It is an experience made of characters, felling, emotions and so on. That is why they are called "RPG", similar to the tabletop ones.

It is your experience. Some games give you liberty, some games not at all and have you live an interactive movie, but you still play to live the story.

trogdor

and as for Neptunia I liked the first one I played but I haven't played much of the next one on my list just because there was literally so much grinding for levels and extra gear,... that I actually didn't even need to beat the last boss (oh and also all the main characters sisters) that I had no energy or inclination to play too much of the next one yet

but at least now I know when I do want more of that even just one game is pleeenty XD

Derpy

What I mean is that it is quite improbable that someone plays a JRPG to skip every cutscene and rush it

trogdor

tis fair enough

Derpy

2:03 PM

Now... think about Gatcha...

Gatcha has to push you forward, because they need to push you to buy new stuff.

trogdor

Adding that into the whole thing would make it actually unplayable

XD

Derpy

Playing at your pace is hurting the gatcha marketing. If you don't get to the new impossible content you won't need to gamble for the new unit built to solve it, right?

trogdor

Yeah

Derpy

and here the weird world Genshin is in starts to become evident.

trogdor

I see where you are going with it I think

Derpy

2:06 PM

They have a JRP with a complex lore, design, story, cutscenes. They would profit from a slower pace to have more time to build paid DLC with more story arcs.

trogdor

It is weird

Derpy

Instead, they have to push a system that rushes the player to eat up content fast as soon as it is released.

trogdor

It sounds like they put a lot of effort into something that could have been a game they just sold normally

And like you mentioned maybe make DLC

But they went this route with it

Derpy

For example, the game has a "world level" tied to your progression. You know how Zelda Breath of the Wild has an hidden level system that changes enemy spaws the more you progress? the game has a similar system. Nice, right? Makes the game more live.

But... then you have limited time events that require you to be at level number to take part.

trogdor

I haven't played Breath of the Wild but I think I had heard of that yeah

Derpy

2:09 PM

So, suddenly you have content that won't be available in a week from now that requires you to be at level 25 for example.

Result? Rush!!!!

As fast as you can!

Skip the books!

Skip the cutscenes!

Don't read the text!

MIN MAX!

trogdor

I mean that is exploitative no doubt

It's also a little risky though

I'm sure some people quit the game out of that kind of pressure

Derpy

that is not the point, the point is that the system forces you to min-max to always be "at level" with the content that get released because you CAN'T play at your pace.

trogdor

And yeah also seems like it could potentially step on their work

@Derpy my point is that that could also drive players away potentially

Derpy

If a character from gatcha is also limited, meaning it can be pulled randomly BUT ONLY FOR A MONTH it means two things....

Whales... will spend multiple thousands $ on the item

and Free-to-play gamers will try to get every "free" currency they can.

Since free currency is usually given for progression...

Progress as fast as you can.

trogdor

I remember doing the free player grind on hearthstone

Derpy

2:13 PM

@trogdor Exactly my point.

so, you have a game that would benefit to be played slowly.. and on top of that gambling mechanics that instead punish you for that and force min-max

trogdor

It's definitely a strange set of things to put into the same game yeah

Derpy

but if on the average mobile gatcha min-max is not a problem... after all... to create a new character you just need a few pictures... here players burning thru content fast could become a problem for them too.

Furthermore, the gatcha system influences the lore too.

trogdor

Because they have to spend more time effort and of course money on the look the mechanics and the voice acting yeah

Derpy

Another aspect I mentioned in the anime room

It is quite easier to make a card needed than it is to make a character needed in a 3d game.

In a "card" game, all you have to do is make up a debuff, a gimmick that only that card can resolve

There are no option.

After all, think Magic... can you clip thru a wall, abuse enemy AI or use some other creative exploit to beat the "boss" with 0 effort?

Nope.

3d games?

Even the "difficult" ones, Demon / Dark Soul...

Plenty of "Beat boss with zero effort" exploits and videos.

So, you will have to either be VERY blatant.... like only that character can even DAMAGE the boss, or players will find a way.

So, forget about "walling off" Free players.

Last issue that comes to mind now, will add more as soon as I remember.

I watched some gameplay videos

Take a quest like this one.

[Story Quest] Secret Pirate Treasure : Kaeya's Troubles | Genshin Impact

►

(not the video I watched, so please forgive me if the player starts using bad words for example)

This quest has you searching for a treasure, it is interesting because you get actual clues and have to find out their meaning. Nothing too complex, but it is not your average "kill # slimes" or "collect # apples" thing.

At the end of the quest you go to a dungeon and face a boss. Before the boss fight you are joined by the character that sent you on the hunt.

Problem: technically you can get that character from gatcha, so he could be in your party.

The STORY is written so that he is NOT with you during the event, but you can still add him to the party even if it makes no sense.

In a normal JRPG they would just either have him join you AFTER the quest or temporarily remove him DURING the quest.

Genshin obviously can't do either.

Get my point?

The gatcha even hurts the story.

trogdor

2:31 PM

yeah

anyway I gotta get to sleep now XD

Derpy

Sometime an event introduces a character, but you already have them in your party.

trogdor

yeah that's a weird,... way to do it

Derpy

For example, recently an even was made and the story had you meet a character like it was the first time you meet.

That character... many player already had it for quite a while from gatcha pulls.

Derpy

2:43 PM

@trogdor good-night I guess then :P

trogdor

8:51 PM

Lol sorry it was just really late and I'm bad at staying up

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Not a bar, but plays one on TV