Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Just having to do a thing on a deadline that's being a little sticky. It'll be okay, at least my husband made chocolate chip pancakes for dinner so that's making me feel better

brug

That does sound better. Although I don't like chocolate so if it was for me I'd swap it with banana.

Gwideon

I’m still really frustrated

Less so but um yeah

brug

What are you frustrated with? Maybe we can help.

user15026

@brug bananas are good too

user15026

12:39 AM

@Gwideon I don't blame you. You did a big hard brave and people are being not great, and the whole thing is a lot to deal with :(

Gwideon

@brug meta drama

brug

Ohh yeah

I've gotten enough of that. I've been in those trenches too

It was a good post and I upvoted you

I almost went in to comment but I am too emotionally drained to go back into that. I've been on MSE for over a week and it is starting to hurt.

I got by a different name there.

Shalvenay

gives @brug and @Gwideon huggles

brug

Yeah just walk away. It's hard to not respond but take care of yourself first

Thank you

Gwideon

I feel A steady trans and non binary perspectives is needed in this discussion but I feel we’re being shouted down.

Also thank you @Shalvenay

brug

12:45 AM

I feel that way too @Gwideon

Gwideon

It um makes me sad. I feel like no one wants to hear from the people they’re making assumptions about. I feel like my perspective doesn’t matter to most people.

brug

I was glad to add my voice while I could though. So all the quiet trans and enby folks out there could see there was some opposition to the intolerance

But once I became unable to remain calm I had to back off

@Gwideon They don't. Some of the most vocal dissenters were posting openly transphobic stuff. People like that don't want to hear our side. They want us to shut up and go away.

Gwideon

I’m glad to step up and speak out but it hurts to be attacked

brug

that's why they attack us.

Gwideon

Yeah

user15026

12:50 AM

I think it's hecka brave of you. I don't have the spoons for it, myself, I am in awe of how you are just willing to say all of this stuff that I've been thinking. I'm sorry it's hurting :(

4

Gwideon

Thanks. It’s kinda been building up for a while but I felt that I needed to fight back. I needed to make people understand that we’re not evil we just want to receive the respect that we deserve.

brug

I can't agree more.

We deserve basic human dignity.

Gwideon

Yeah

brug

I'll star this room and make it a point to keep coming in here. If it ever gets to you feel free to ping me and I'd be happy to listen to you vent.

Gwideon

Thank you

I honestly just want everyone to get along. I just want to be accepted and respected like anyone else. My gender identity is a big part of who I am but to anyone who knows me knows that it’s not a massive deal and I won’t verbally crucify someone who makes an honest mistake. I don’t see how my behavior and my attempts to be a good person while still being true to myself make me some kind of hideous monster to be beaten down on and verbally slain.

Sorry. Long vent

brug

1:11 AM

@Gwideon I have recently come to the realization that the whole fear that we will crucify people for making mistakes is part of the rhetoric used to make us look petty and frail and assinine. We don't jump on people for mistakes.

People continually hurt us intentionally and then video us losing our shit and try to make it look like we are crazy people.

Gwideon

That’s really twisted

brug

It is. I can remove my comment on your meta post if you think it will draw more ire.

Gwideon

No it won’t

brug

I need to step away. Thanks for chatting with me.

Gwideon

It’s okay

trogdor

3:00 AM

@Gwideon that isn't true just because some people don't want to hear it, but I understand how you feel that way

@Gwideon that's all entirely fair, you deserve as much respect as anyone else

and I'm sorry that you don't always get it :(

Gwideon

3:33 AM

@trogdor um thank you but it’s not your fault so um there’s no need to say sorry.

trogdor

I know but

I'm not good at various expressions of sympathy/solidarity/likeness of mind ect

So often I end up appologizing for things that might not strictly be my fault as shorthand

So I'll say instead then, I believe you deserve respect

Gwideon

hugs

trogdor

And some very basic respect involves using the pronouns you tightly ask to be called by

Gwideon

Um I um kinda feel really sad right now but um I also kinda feel like i’m Obligated to not remove myself from the discussion as um I seem to be one of the few remaining LGBTQ+ perspectives.

Sorry

I’m going into vent mode again

I need to stop doing that

trogdor

I mean

It's a frustrating situation

Gwideon

3:43 AM

Yeah it is

brug

@Gwideon Don't put that obligation on yourself. You need to make sure you're own well being is first

trogdor

Yeah I mean

I've vented in places like this before and I've never appologized for it

Especially here or in the main discord I'm in

Gwideon

It’s hard not to. I’m very much used to standing up for myself and others and I don’t know how well I could live with myself if I just ignored this.

brug

I know the feeling but only do what you can.

Gwideon

I’m not gonna bring this stuff into the discord

brug

3:48 AM

Think of it like the oxygen masks in an airplane. You can't take care of others if you don't secure your own first.

Gwideon

Yeah that is um true

brug

And thank you for standing up and being a voice for us.

It isn't easy

trogdor

@Gwideon I don't mean you have to

I'm just saying I think a small amount of venting in a place you feel safe is sometimes a good thing

brug

And necessary

Gwideon

Yeah but um i’ve Been doing it a lot lately

trogdor

3:54 AM

@brug definitely

brug

you need to.

Gwideon

I just want things to get better

But I don’t know if they will

trogdor

That's entirely fair

Gwideon

i’m um gonna go. I should probably sleep

brug

They won't overnight. And that is sad and kinda hurts. You need to be in it for the long game. It's a marathon and if you burn out in the beginning you won't be around for the end.

@Gwideon g'night

trogdor

4:03 AM

Yeah

This problem is, unfortunately, going to take some time to get sorted out

And frankly that's going to be a lot of time and there will be holdouts of people who don't want to change or don't know how to or don't realize they should

You need to process it in a healthy way for that time, and if you're venting a little about it in here helps you shouldn't appogize for it unless you have hurt someone

Which you have not currently done

:P

So there XD

V2Blast

4:43 AM

<3

trogdor

4:57 AM

❤️

Carcer

11:03 AM

I find it helps to remember that for all things often look quite awful, LGBTQ rights and acceptance have progressed hugely in the last couple of decades and we're generally on a strong upward trend

not to minimise any current suffering or be complacent, as it's surely taken a lot of hard work to get there

but things get better

and that this drama is even happening at all is indicative of the progress that has been made

trogdor

11:19 AM

yeah it's likely some degree of it is pushback

I don't mean to say not to have hope

I just mean like, venting in a safe feeling online space is an acceptable coping mechanism IMO

just as long as it's not harmful to the other people in that space

but that venting didn't seem like it was harming anyone to me

Carcer

11:40 AM

oh sure

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from venting

just wanting to help them feel positive again

user15026

12:50 PM

I find it gets better as a sentiment is difficult because yes it might keep getting better but it doesn't make the current stuff any less impactful or hurtful, and just being told to wait it out is not great.

Carcer

@Ash I certainly don't mean to minimise current issues or suggest the appropriate response is to just wait it out

things matter and things need work

just trying to keep out of a fatalistic headspace, because I know how much it sucks to feel like it can't possibly get better and everything's going downhill

Gwideon

1:56 PM

hello

Carcer

heyo.

Gwideon

how are you

Carcer

2:11 PM

still recovering from a cold but getting by

how's yourself today

Gwideon

I'm alright

Carcer

2:31 PM

cool

Gwideon

2:55 PM

so how do people feel

Rubiksmoose

Still pretty drained by a lot of things, but I think I got a decent amount of sleep last night so I feel like I still gained a few spoons over yesterday at least.

Carcer

turns out that the amount of extra talking I'm having to do now at work instead of loitering at home is making me lose my voice

Gwideon

that's good. I have a essay over beowulf to finish up

Yuuki

@Gwideon Just turn in a bunch of gibberish and say that you wrote it in the original Old English.

Gwideon

nope

Rubiksmoose

3:07 PM

lol

GcL

Eat a feast. Stab a monster. Eat a feast. Stab a monster's mom. Eat a feast. Stab a dragon. Die. The end.

Carcer

everything I know about beowulf I learned by half-watching an overly sarcastic productions video over my husband's shoulder

GcL

My favorite part of sagas are the feasts.

Carcer

Classics Summarized: Beowulf

►

GcL

@Carcer I feel like that's probably valid.

Rubiksmoose

3:09 PM

I had a physics professor that would assign nonsense filler essays about random topics and I suspected didn't read them at all (despite requiring very annoying standards, eg very specific citation formats). So, I started inserting "jabberwocky" into my papers. And I increased the number with each paper. It was never noted.

On one I had inserted it maybe 50 times on a two page essay about carbon nanotubes.

Carcer

"Given that it is brillig, describe the gyring and gimbling of the slithy toves using fluid dynamics"

Gwideon

I love OSP

Carcer

yeah, they're pretty great

Rubiksmoose

@Carcer lol

Gwideon

3:37 PM

so um I'm thinking about making a post on meta

NautArch

@Gwideon Definitely do what you think is best for yourself and the community, but it also seems you are very burnt out from this. I'm not sure re-engaging is the healthiest option.

At least maybe not until you yourself are in a better place to manage the results.

Gwideon

maybe but i kinda want to encourage everyone to be more civil

NautArch

4:00 PM

@Gwideon that's never a bad thing, but fully expect incivility in response.

Gwideon

yeah

i think i'll be okay

Andras Deak

4:27 PM

@Gwideon good luck, but I don't think you'll be able to say that more successfully than those that have tried before (which is only a problem because you'll be facing the crappy feedback)

Gwideon

thanks

Gwideon

4:54 PM

so um I posted it

here's the link meta.stackexchange.com/q/335713/622332

sorry if it's a bit ranty

Gwideon

5:11 PM

sorry

vicky_molokh

@Gwideon No need to apologise, you're engaging in civil discourse on a place intended for it.

Gwideon

okay

Gwideon

5:29 PM

I just get nervous when i post stuff

Carcer

5:46 PM

that's understandable

I used to have real bad social anxiety and extreme conflict-aversion

Gwideon

yeah

um did you read the post

Carcer

yes

Gwideon

um what did you think. sorry

also geez I got a ton of comments really fast. um yeah

Carcer

yeah, that was to be expected. I admire your tenacity in trying to promote a positive environment

Gwideon

I feel this needs to be done. So i'm gonna try and do it

Rubiksmoose

5:57 PM

@Gwideon Sorry for contributing to some of them lol.

Gwideon

@Rubiksmoose no it's all good. feel free to contribute. I'm glad it's getting attention as I feel like it needs to be seen

NautArch

Honest question: is meta supposed to be questions? Or can it be statements like this? Trying to understand if the hold was reasonable.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Depends who you ask, but generally things do not need to be explicit questions.

That hold reasons is generally so we can close unproductive rants I think.

Carcer

meta is awkward because it's specifically a place for discussion but they've just shoehorned it into the SE format

and that doesn't work very well

Rubiksmoose

^

Carcer

6:01 PM

stack really doesn't support a back and forth debate or discussion format

Gwideon

yeah

NautArch

gotcha, and now I know!

user15026

I feel like at this point it sucks because we have a lot of hurt people all saying they're hurt and other people telling them no one is saying they're hurt and there is no reason to hurt and it's just a big frustrating chaos pile, because the core things that need to be dealt with can't be resolved by yet another "use pronouns" "I don't wanna" "but respect" "I don't care" debate - people've made their positions clear, as awful as they might potentially be. At this point, we need SE to step up

Carcer

it's all the guff about compelled speech that gets me

the CoC already compels us to a certain kind of speech - it wants us to be nice

we're meant to interact with each other respectfully or not at all

Gwideon

yeah

Yuuki

6:06 PM

Even before the new CoC, speech was "compelled". Don't use foul language, don't post spam links, answer the question you're being asked. It's not like SE was ever a Wild, Wild West of Say Whatever You Want.

Carcer

SE's making very clear that the definition of respectful we're operating from here includes addressing people the right way

people getting all up in arms about how this new things demands a positive action whereas old rules just defined things you couldn't do

Yuuki

Seriously, people need to take a step back, let the new policy changes float around for a few days, and then notice that nobody's taking a weedwhacker to policy infractions.

Carcer

you've still got the choice to say nothing

blah.

Gwideon

I'm sorry if my post doesn't help

vicky_molokh

@Yuuki I'm sorry, but all of those examples are not cases of compelling, but rather of restricting. Even 'answer the posted questions' allows people to pick many different ways of doing it and only restricts against foul language, off-topic stuff etc.

@Gwideon Your post does help. I said it before: your stance seems nice. And it's non-authoritarian, which is important for injecting nuance back into this debate.

user15026

6:12 PM

@Yuuki Pretty much.

user15026

As an enby human, I don't get why "please use they/them for me when you remember and if I correct you please try to learn" is so abhorrent

user15026

I mean I get people think pronouns are not as important as say someone calling you the wrong name all day, but trust me, the continual microagression of being forced into a box you don't fit in is tiring, if not harmful outright.

user15026

I get that if you've never experienced this sort of thing, it's not something you're gonna understand, but like...can people accept that when I say "this causes me pain", I'm not saying it just for the heck of it? sigh

user15026

I've been trying to be patient with this, and to use my limited spoons elsewhere, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Gwideon

@Ash yeah it truely is

user15026

6:16 PM

On top of it all, we need answers from SE that aren't coming.

vicky_molokh

@Ash When you say you don't get it, are you currently open to trying to understand why if given the opportunity?

user15026

@vicky_molokh If the argument is grammar related, no. Otherwise, potentially, but if it is the same stuff that keeps getting yelled on MSE right now? Probably also not, because I'm tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over and over.

vicky_molokh

@Ash It's much more complicated than just grammar.

Gwideon

sorry i dont mean to answer for ash but no as I see it as I see it as a very basic respect thing.

user15026

I look at it this way - I belong to a faith community where I'd say...most of the people I interact with locally do not have English as their first language. Many of them come from languages that don't have pronouns the way English does. They go "okay, this is new for me, be patient with me while I learn?" and oh hey, we work it out.

user15026

6:19 PM

They mess it up, but then I gently remind them, and we try again.

user15026

We talk about how sometimes they is plural and sometimes it's singular and how that's tricky, but so are lots of other things about English.

NautArch

@Ash I think some of it may have been what I was trying to express a couple of days ago. But the final conclusion is, even if gendered pronouns aren't necessary, if someone feels they are, then just go ahead and change to use them as requested.

Gwideon

^^

user15026

Honestly, all we generally want is the same sort of attempts at respect you'd make with cis humans.

Gwideon

i agree

user15026

6:25 PM

It doesn't have to be perfect! We get that it's new and different and sometimes kinda brain squeaky the same way adapting to any new paradigm is, but...just try! Yes, neopronouns can be tricky to remember, but hey, you learn new words all the time, these are just new words for a thing.

Gwideon

I don't want to be rude or cruel about it. I will always be gentle when it comes to correction and education.

Yuuki

Why is that the SE community seems to be open to a lot of things and "well, we'll see if there are problems later and fix it when we get there" and then when these new CoC policies roll out, it's "no, we have to make sure it's 100% perfect and full stop until we cover every possible scenario"? I don't remember this amount of chaos over any previous SE policy.

Carcer

@vicky_molokh then the new CoC is also a restriction on what you're allowed to do; you're not allowed to call someone the wrong thing if you know better. In every case your choice is between respectful interaction or not interacting; the scope of what constitutes respectful has just been clarified

user15026

@Yuuki I think because this one is related to personal identity, and people get weird about that when it conflicts with their worldview/understanding and it's messy and so they're trying to make it perfect. We're definitely running into "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" sort of stuff here.

Gwideon

thats always been se's policy

vicky_molokh

6:26 PM

@Carcer If it's only a prohibition against calling people some things, that's OK. But it seems that the rules aren't limited to that, as evidenced by the Monica Case, and the interpretation follow-up for the new CoC.

user15026

They're not going to be able to cover every use case or exception or moment, and that's fine. We can all learn together, as long as, y'know, there's an attempt at that.

Yuuki

something something a better season something something letter from birmingham jail

user15026

@Yuuki Indeed.

user15026

I'm feeling very "let deeds, not words be your adorning" at this point, though. I'm exhausted by all the discussion and the promises and all of that. Step up, do something, so we can all...work to move on instead of stewing in this miasma of....whatever this is.

vicky_molokh

For example, it seems like I can't just adopt 'e' (my preference among the neos) or some other designated one as a common-gender (as opposed to neuter-gender) pronoun to encompass everyone, but can be compelled to use a plural.

user15026

6:31 PM

I can't speak to that, that's on SE and whatever they decide for their platform.

Yuuki

@vicky_molokh You sure can request that we use 'e' to refer to you if you want and we'll do that.

vicky_molokh

@Yuuki You don't understand.

Yuuki

Now if you mean that you want to use 'e' to refer to everyone and then when they say "maybe I'd like something else" and you continue to use 'e', then there's a problem.

vicky_molokh

I'm talking about my favourite among the neos for when I speak or type. It's up to other people to decide what they want to use when they refer to me.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh Isn't that kind of the exact opposite of what folks are asking for? It shouldn't be up to me decide what I want to call you.

I mean, I guess it is, because I'm the one using it. But ultimately we should call each other what the other person wants to be called.

vicky_molokh

6:34 PM

That is in fact a fundamental disconnect for me. Why do people want to have the right to demand others how to refer to them? The users of a word should decide on it, not the targets. E.g. I'm not vicky because I decided to, but because that's how people pronounce/shorten my name IRL.

And that in turn isn't based on my choice either, but rather on how my parents chose to refer to me.

And then suddenly the CoC shows up and turns that on its head.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh In the US, once you are of legal age (or granted independence), you can choose that name.

Not sure how that works in other countries.

vicky_molokh

@NautArch Well, you still need to go to the passport table or whatever it's called in USA and get approval from society/government.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh I don't think they dont approve for 'reasons'. If you want to change it, you just follow the rules around changing it. And then bingo. YOu've changed it.

Yuuki

Speaking as someone who has changed his legal name, the name change forms are less "approval" and more "we need documentation for how you want your name so we can refer to that name change for more legal/bureaucratic stuff".

user15026

@vicky_molokh People do this all the time - people called Michael being asked to be called Mike, people called Elizabeth May Smith asking to be called May rather than Elizabeth, Someone called Dorothy asking people to call her Dot, etc etc etc

Yuuki

6:38 PM

No one's going over your name change forms and saying "I don't like 'Phteven', rejected".

Xirema

Whelp. We'll see how my post goes.

vicky_molokh

@Ash That seems to be affording Michael too much control over the speech of other people if it can be a demand rather than a request (a difference between a demand and a request being the consequences of refusal). Strange that this is a norm in a state with a reputation of being liberty-loving.

goodguy5

I'm not so sure about the factuality of that Race IAT test (mentioned in one of the answers to gwideon's post)

Gwideon

@Xirema Thank you

user15026

@vicky_molokh Not really?

NautArch

6:41 PM

@vicky_molokh This argument seems very close to supporting the issues that many think are not good.

vicky_molokh

Now, I understand that my experience is as odd to you as yours is to me. But this just shows that the Stack is a multinational and multicultural place, and this causes clashes.

Rubiksmoose

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

user15026

@vicky_molokh I understand what you're trying to say, it's not actually all that odd to me at it's core. My refusal to want to sit nicely with it doesn't mean I don't get it.

user15026

You don't want to feel like someone is telling you how to be, for whatever value of be. But, by refusing pronouns...you're telling someone else how to be, according to your rules.

user15026

You're stacking the deck in the other direction.

NautArch

6:44 PM

@Ash I'm not sure I understand this.

user15026

I recently shortened my name. Again, I've got people who use the longer form. I go "hey, call me Ash, please." and then they try. And sometimes, it takes a while for people who used to call me not-Ash to remember to call me Ash, but we get there.

user15026

@NautArch If you call me she, you're putting me in a female box. I do not belong in that box, but you're telling me you think I do.

user15026

I get that a lot of this is people not liking singular they, or neopronouns, as well.

user15026

But my pronouns are they/them, and she/her isn't right for me, he/him isn't, I don't want to use neopronouns because they're not right either. I don't want to wear an itchy sweater that doesn't fit just because my grandma decided I needed to have it.

Gwideon

I don't feel great

goodguy5

6:47 PM

@goodguy5 and the career one has some pretty glaring problems also.

vicky_molokh

@Ash Well, a big part of the disagreement seems to be that you perceive it as a matter of whether you wear an itchy sweater, and others perceived as you asking them to wear the itchy sweaters.

goodguy5

It get's mad because I associate "garden" with "career" and not "family"

Well, my wife is a professional gardener, so it's a career imo

and one of my best friends is a chef, so same for kitchen.

vicky_molokh

And of course each side is outraged at being forced to wear the itchy sweater. One poster even conceded* that the language one speaks is no less a part of identity than other things stereotypically filed under this umbrella.
* == not sure if I agree with the statement, but it's worth at least considering.

NautArch

@Ash This makes a lot of sense :) The only thing I'd potentially note for those who don't like the singular "they" is when requesting another pronoun to not just ask, but maybe(?) also thank someone for trying to keep it non-gendered? Or is that totally unnecessary. (Yes, i'm trying to find a bit of a middle ground that acknowledges works in progress)

user15026

@vicky_molokh I was underselling it slightly - this stuff has driven me to tears, upset, and outright harm (physical/emotional, choose your poison). I don't want to get into it, because I shouldn't need to put my trauma on display for validity.

Gwideon

6:52 PM

I expected the backlash. I knew it was gonna be controversail but um it still sucks

user15026

@Gwideon Yeah, it does .

Carcer

@Gwideon it does. I understand the compulsion to keep checking on it and following along but you might be better off finding something else to distract you for a bit if it's starting to affect you badly

user15026

I wish I could like...upload my brain somewhere so y'all could see what this does to this particular human, whether I like it or not.

user15026

It's not fun.

Gwideon

no i'm okay

user15026

6:54 PM

@Gwideon Alright, but remember, it's okay if you're not, at any point, and need to be elsewhere doing not this.

NautArch

@Gwideon We're not here to tell you that you aren't. Only you know you. But as an outsider, I see you come in very stressed about the situation, but you also can't separate yourself from it. That isn't generally healthy.

Gwideon

yeah I know

Carcer

my tactic is to play multiplayer games so then I get mad about something else

user15026

@Carcer that's why I've been playing so much Mario Kart Tour on my phone :P

Gwideon

probably why i've gotten back into smash

Carcer

6:56 PM

I'm plunkbatting personally

NautArch

@Gwideon I tried smash and just...couldn't.

Carcer

although right this very moment I am going to go and affix a heat lamp for an iguana

NautArch

There was so much going on on the screen i couldn't follow it.

Gwideon

Did you try 1v1s or something else

that's why competitive smash is 1v1 with no items and a select few stages. but yeah smash can be really hectic

V2Blast

I've never seen the appeal of competitive smash, personally. It's always been the sort of game I play specifically for noncompetitiveness

NautArch

7:00 PM

@Gwideon A nephew brought their switch over so there were three of us playing.

I prefer to wander the wastelands of FallOut or Witcher.

GcL

What are your implicit reactions and assumptions about the writer of the following statement?
"The developer missed the implications of the permissions change. She should be sent a link to the cifs shares cheat sheet."

Gwideon

I like competitive smash because of the skill ceiling. I can understand

Yuuki

@V2Blast My understanding is that it's for people who like fighting games but don't like fighting games.

Gwideon

@Gcl No idea

NautArch

@GcL That's not the case I'm talking about. You've got a gendered pronoun in there that's making an explicit assumption.

My point is that asking nicely is just as important as responding nicely.

GcL

7:04 PM

Maybe they were asked nicely to use she previously.

Maybe not.

What do you assume about the writer of that statement without knowing if that's the case or not?

Gwideon

@GcL if they're wrong I gently correct them if they're not then I don't really care. I assume they're a normal human being with good intentions.

GcL

@Gwideon They're right. The developer is a she.

Everyone knows the developer is a she.

Gwideon

okay they're a normal human being with good intentions

Rubiksmoose

@Gwideon main?

GcL

@Gwideon Can normal human beings with good intentions also by misogynists?

Gwideon

7:07 PM

@GcL I feel like that's a bit of a trap

NautArch

^

GcL

@Gwideon I think the answer is yes, and I also think the writer could easily have good intentions.

Xirema

@GcL Yes. Various -isms are often only partially informed by whether the intent of the writer was to support that -ism.

NautArch

If everyone is using the language that everyone wants and it is congenial in every way, I'm not sure what the problem is. Yeah, that person may still be a problem, but that particular interaction isn't.

GcL

@Gwideon What did you perceive as being the trap in that question?

@Xirema I do not think a person has to be aware of their prejudices to be characterized by them.

Rubiksmoose

7:11 PM

In the same way that someone can act or support acts that are -phobic without necessarily being -phobic. Labels are tricky.

GcL

I feel the like the most dangerous biases are the ones that we aren't aware of or acting on consciously.

Xirema

@GcL Agreed.

Gwideon

if I answer yes people may assume that i'm misogynist as well. If i answer no I feel that I could be called a hypocrite

GcL

@Rubiksmoose Sure. But you could easily question if that's the case from reading that statement. Is the writer biased by the gender of the developer in that case?

NautArch

@GcL Does it matter if there is no previous context and the language is appropriate, friendly, and helpful? This seems like you're asking everyone to assume that everyone has bad intent that needs to be addressed.

goodguy5

7:13 PM

@Carcer now I have to look up what plunkbatting is because it sounds inappropes

Rubiksmoose

@GcL I guess I'm not sure where this conversation is heading and maybe I missed some context here.

goodguy5

oh, Pubg, neat

Carcer

@goodguy5 Player UNKnown's BATtlegrounds

NautArch

@Carcer i would never have figured that out

GcL

@NautArch The previous context is an archeological expedition or unavailable because it was verbal in a meeting.

goodguy5

7:14 PM

@Carcer is that regional to where you are?

Carcer

@goodguy5 if you consider websites regional then yes

Gwideon

@GcL did you see my previous response

NautArch

@GcL If you're going to present a hypothetical scenario, you need to include all relevant information before asking how we'd respond.

GcL

@Rubiksmoose An example of using a gendered pronoun could lead to a reasonable discussion about the writer.

NautArch

It's not fair to say "oh, yeah, well what about if X?"

Carcer

7:15 PM

Rock Paper Shotgun nicknamed it plunkbat once and then kept doing it because of all the angry commenters who thought it was an awful name

and clearly take the game far too seriously

when it's obviously a story about stag and/or hen dos gone very wrong

Gwideon

anyways

i'll shut up

GcL

@NautArch That's a totally real scenario. That message came into an inbox from the devops team. The immediate provided context in the email was the starting message which was an error output from an application. The intervening messages would be a pain in the butt to retrieve even if the recipient of the email had the permission to go find them.

NautArch

@GcL Right, but you started with a single sentence and no other context. THen you started adding more context.

That's called moving the goal post.

GcL

@NautArch That's pretty much how it showed up. That was the content of the email body.

NautArch

@GcL And you had no prior knowledge of that person, their interactions, or history?

or the situation?

GcL

7:19 PM

@NautArch Some of the recipients did know the people involved. Some did not. Some didn't know what any of the technical terms were.

NautArch

I think i'm going to remove myself from this thought-exercise and let others work it through with you.

Gwideon

same

i'm kinda not sure how to move forward

vicky_molokh

7:38 PM

@Ash I'm sorry for being slow to reply. I did it not because of ignoring you, but because I had to contemplate hard how to. And at this point, I think that at any next move will inevitably turn this into trying to keep a logos-and-ethos-ish approach in a topic that is taking fast strides into pathos territory. And I fear that I'm ill equipped to operate in such a mode without unintentionally antagonising people and/or causing misunderstandings.

user15026

@vicky_molokh That's fair. :) I appreciate you explaining why it was taking some time.

vicky_molokh

I'm still interested in sharing perspectives, but unfortunately doing so without being immediately lumped with people who superficially seem to be sharing my PoV (while in actuality differing in important matters) is hard. And lumping would not lead to good places, and possibly risk conflicts. So I'm stuck, I guess.

(Edited. Before the edit the sentence didn't make sense.)

user15026

I apologize that right now I am very emotionally exhausted - I ma having a lot of these sorts of conversations with a lot of people, and it's rather draining. I'm not opposed to the discussion in general, I just don't think I personally can do it right now.

Rubiksmoose

@Gwideon Can I suggest that you disengage with Someonewhousedtocare? They are being rude and insulting and I have flagged, but I've noted elsewhere that they are not a productive person to converse with.

user15026

I want to, but it's hard, because this requires a lot of emotional vulnerability on my part, and that's in limited amount. I know you're trying to look at it from pure logic, but for us, who are facing this sort of thing, it's not able to be as easily divorced from the feelings bits.

Gwideon

7:51 PM

Yeah i made one more response and um I'm removing myself

Rubiksmoose

@Gwideon [thumbs up]

Gwideon

thanks

user15026

@Gwideon Good plan. Sometimes, you just gotta know when to walk away. Do something fun instead. (You mentioned playing piano the other day - I am still kinda jealous of your skills. I really should set up my keyboard and practice.)

Gwideon

i can't i'm stuck at school

which is annoying

vicky_molokh

@Ash Thing is, what you describe isn't entirely unfamiliar to me (I can go into specifics if you want, it's not a secret thing), but I changed my perspective, and in retrospect I see that change of perspective as a significant self-improvement that also made my life easier and my emotional state more positive even in the face of things that used to be negative.

Rubiksmoose

8:03 PM

I will say that if anybody is having issues with disengaging here on this site, flagging a mod will fix that pronto. In chat it is harder (because chat flags go to all mods), but if you find some way to notify a mod we'll help you out.

I would hope that everyone here would respect vocal desires to disengage of course as best as you can.

This is a tough topic, and we want everyone to be kind to themselves and not hurt anybody's mental well-being. Let us know if there is any way we can help with that.

Gwideon

Can I have a hug

vicky_molokh

@Gwideon /hug

Gwideon

thanks

user15026

8:18 PM

@Gwideon oh right I tend to forget not everyone is my age

user15026

@vicky_molokh that's great that whatever it was and whatever you did worked for you, but we are all different and you can't expect that whatever it was and whatever you did is the magic answer for everyone.

user15026

Generally, my life is pretty good and my outlook is almost irritatingly positive I just don't like the idea of being repeatedly misgendered.

user15026

That's pretty much it.

user15026

I feel like you are getting ideas about me and my views and my state of mind that aren't entirely correct but I cannot keep having this discussion.

user15026

I am exhausted by trying to just get to exist the way the majority does.

vicky_molokh

8:24 PM

@Ash I . . . have things to reply about minds and about finding things that work for oneself, but I'll have to hope to return to them at a better time.

Gwideon

I'm just not sure what to do

user15026

@Gwideon about this whole thing or something in specific?

Gwideon

about everything. I feel really powerless

user15026

Thats really hard to sit with sometimes. I like to think about small things I can do, when I can't find a way to make the big changes. Teaspoons add up.

Gwideon

8:41 PM

yeah

trogdor

8:57 PM

@Gwideon hug ❤️

Gwideon

thank you

Xirema

Oh wow.

So I apologize for this, but I managed to get one of the people commenting on my post to actually say the quiet part out loud.

Gwideon