Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Yuuki

1:11 AM

V2Blast

6:10 AM

lol

Derpy

10:14 AM

@Yuuki and now, thanks to Gemini Man, the meme was made into a full movie....

Derpy

10:30 AM

^ Hina Kitty Matsuri?

GcL

1:21 PM

@Derpy I don't know what those are, but I like them.

Derpy

@GcL Hello Kitty characters posing like Hina Dolls.

GcL

I don't know what either of those things are, but they're quite adorable.

Derpy

Hello Kitty is a character made by Sanrio.

Hello Kitty

Hello Kitty (Japanese: ハロー・キティ, Hepburn: Harō Kiti), also known by her full name Kitty White (キティ・ホワイト, Kiti Howaito), is a fictional character produced by the Japanese company Sanrio, created by Yuko Shimizu and currently designed by Yuko Yamaguchi. Sanrio depicts Hello Kitty as a female gijinka (anthropomorphization) of Japanese Bobtail with a red bow and, notably, no mouth. According to her backstory, she is a perpetual 3rd-grade student who lives outside London. Sanrio announced in 2018 that Hello Kitty's birthday is 1 November. Since the cartoon character's creation, Hello Kitty has become...

Hina Doll are part of the Japanese tradition of Hinamatsuri

Hinamatsuri

Hinamatsuri (雛祭り, Hina-matsuri), also called Doll's Day or Girls' Day, is a special day in Japan. Celebrated on 3 March of each year, platforms covered with a red carpet-material are used to display a set of ornamental dolls (雛人形, hina-ningyō) representing the Emperor, Empress, attendants, and musicians in traditional court dress of the Heian period. == Customs == Hinamatsuri is one of the five seasonal festivals (五節句, go-sekku) that are held on auspicious dates of the Chinese calendar: the first day of the first month, the third day of the third month, and so on. After the adoption of th...

GcL

A Japanese cat resident in England who isn't passing 3rd grade. Actually, that's pretty good for a cat. My cat's aren't that smart.

@Derpy I feel like that beats the pants off Columbus Day.

Gwideon

hello

GcL

1:31 PM

Hi

Gwideon

how is everyone

GcL

Caffeinated.

Gwideon

okay

I'm kinda out of it

GcL

I recommend tea or coffee

Gwideon

wish i could but unfortunately didn't have time to brew any

GcL

1:39 PM

Ugh... time, the perpetual enemy.

Derpy

can... I ask something to the room? Forgive me if that is weird....

Also, please forgive my poor wording in advance if you can.

doppelgreener

@Derpy you may

Derpy

Yet I think this is the room that may give me the best answer.

I know that "black" has been used to refer to "black people" - and more often than not in a very rude way

But I have never seen anyone - before today - using the term "Brown"

do you happen to know if this is actually a thing or can suggest me some source to check about this?

GcL

@Derpy Depends on when and where you're talking about. Blacks was an accepted term for a time and was not used pejoratively. Of course, it could be... like most terms to identify a group of people.

Derpy

I have seen a tweeter post that invites "black and brown people" to join an event - didn't seem very nice to me ....

something like

> Are you black or brown and live near XYZ? Join us at this event [details here]

doppelgreener

1:47 PM

Black people is commonly used to refer to such, and yes, brown people does get used. Usually by the very same. They are not rude terms or pejoratives. They can be used by people who are being rude. (Contrast, “blacks” is no longer considered okay: they are people, and calling them just “blacks” dehumanises that, and was used overly much by people specifically seeking to dehumanise them.)

GcL

@Derpy I hear brown people used, but not in the same way. Also, I don't hear it as a pejorative, but that's likely because of the people I hear saying it are frequently including themselves in the grouping.

Derpy

@doppelgreener So you are telling me that something like the line I posted above should actually be somehow acceptable? That is a relief.

doppelgreener

@Derpy Yes.

I've seen that kind of language come up on my twitter from authors who would identify with those terms.

Derpy

OK, thanks for the answer.

doppelgreener

It may be ... less good ... if used by someone who is not within those groups. Context is key.

(It can be okay. But it can also be not.)

G. Moylan

1:50 PM

@Derpy I use the term "black" because "African American" is factually incorrect. We're all Americans. That, and you wouldn't call a black Brit an "African American." If you must refer to their skin color, then the phrase is "black."

otherwise, "people," "Brit" "American"

Carcer

@G.Moylan I think you're the first person to bring up America

Derpy

@doppelgreener Well, context is still a little odd, but I would prefer to not link the actual post here for reasons. At least I now know it doesn't strike as odd or out of place as I feared before

G. Moylan

@Carcer ?

GcL

@Carcer Ugh... lets not go there. 'tis a silly place.

Gwideon

I feel like something is going on

Carcer

1:54 PM

but yeah, black people is fine, brown people seems (at least to my experience of media) to have taken off relatively recently and seems mostly used by latinx/middle-eastern/asian people to refer to themselves

for instance a recent line from the Nish Report (a show hosted by Nish Kumar on current events on the BBC) included the line that "according to the BBC's impartiality guidelines the only brown person allowed to have a strong opinion about anything is you, Nish"

doppelgreener

@Carcer also Indian, some islanders, some other native peoples in various colonised locations

Carcer

@doppelgreener indian is asian

are we talking about different indians

G. Moylan

yes but it's a more specific cultural subset

For instance, Iranians are middle-eastern and therefore also asian, but likely wouldn't refer to themselves as "brown"

Carcer

probably depends on the iranian

at any rate

Rubiksmoose

@Derpy (I agree with that decision FWIW)

Gwideon

2:03 PM

um did anyone see my answer

GcL

@Gwideon Which answer?

Gwideon

meta.stackexchange.com/a/335471/622332 um this one

GcL

Yes, but it's too early for the main site meta for me. That's a two coffee minimum for me.

I would remove "I know I will probably get downvoted to heck for this but" and just get straight to the "I honestly feel.." part.

Gwideon

okay

GcL

The honestly feel part to me is the valuable part of that statement.

Gwideon

2:07 PM

sorry

GcL

I don't understand what you are apologizing for?

Gwideon

bringing this up to early

doppelgreener

@Gwideon I have, I upvoted it when you posted it yesterday.

GcL

@Gwideon Oh. Ha!. No worries. I'm just grousing for an excuse to get another mug of coffee.

Gwideon

yeah i noticed. um thanks for that

Yuuki

2:12 PM

@Carcer I agree but don't say this around my parents or my Indian co-workers because that's a whole "conversation" I don't want to get into.

Derpy

@Gwideon will try to read that as soon as I can get myself to cope with the CoC post. And just to be clear, I don't mean to accept what they are asking for - that should be bare minimum for civil co-existence, I don't need someone telling me that. I mean cope with the fact that we had to write that down into a rule because we are still failing at protecting people from harm.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Same

Gwideon

I know some people don't like the compelled speech part of this and yeah it's sad that SE felt we needed this but um yeah.

anyways I'll be quiet

GcL

@Gwideon I've seen code of conduct go over well in more cases that not. The only time I saw it go poorly was when people were trying to use it as a truncheon and bludgeon others with it.

doppelgreener

2:28 PM

@Gwideon I've been trying to work out to what degree the compelled speech complaints are a dogwhistle, currently at "fairly sure it's a dogwhistle".

Gwideon

I really don't think this is that big of a deal. but um yeah

sorry

GcL

@doppelgreener What do you mean by dogwhistle?

Rubiksmoose

@GcL merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/dog-whistle-political-meaning

(in case you've never encountered the political/argumentative meaning before)

GcL

I haven't.

Derpy

my only concert, but also the one that makes me somehow unsure about the intent in this rule (fix something VS advertising change) is that I see a new rule about making the network more inclusive and... the rude flags are still there unprocessed and as far as people tell me the staff still is not replying to **serious** reports made via "contact us" form
(can't provide any recent feedback on this, but I do know I had tried to have message that called MLP fans mentally ill people removed for over a year and over multiple "contact us" emails - and if was removed 10 minutes after it became cen…

GcL

2:45 PM

@doppelgreener For some of us that intentionally need to keep gender out of discussions where it has no bearing, it's very concerning.

doppelgreener

@GcL That's not something I'm ready to talk with you about right now (partly on account of already having done so just yesterday) but I consider it separate to what I'm thinking of.

Carcer

3:16 PM

@Yuuki dang. I didn't realise that one could be controversial

Yuuki

@Carcer Yeah, whether or not Indians are considered "Asian" is a really controversial topic amongst Asians.

Carcer

@Yuuki I'm gonna admit straight up I feel like the reasons for this controversy are probably very sad.

Yuuki

@Carcer Yeah...

vicky_molokh

@Yuuki Wait, where do they draw the border between Asia and Europe then?

Yuuki

As much as I can generalize countries, I would venture to say that Asian countries have a tendency to be pretty prejudicial.

NautArch

3:24 PM

Isn't India kinda known as the Subcontinent (of Asia?)

Yuuki

My personal opinion is that it has to do with demographics. Both China and Japan are very homogeneous countries, both with >80% of their population consisting of ethnic Han and ethnic Japanese, respectively.

@NautArch The term "subcontinent" is its own ball of chaos.

NautArch

@Yuuki I had no idea :(

GcL

You want tectonics? because that's how you get tectonics! /S

doppelgreener

Let's bear in mind the word "Asia" was dumped on the continent from an external point of view and groups together a lot of people who would historically consider themselves quite distinct peoples.

Carcer

@doppelgreener oh, I'm certainly not trying to lump them all in together in any kind of meaningful way

NautArch

3:28 PM

@doppelgreener <raises fist angrily> "herodotus!!"

doppelgreener

Right, but it's part of why "but are they really Asian?" can get sticky, especially given when I talk about Asians I'm not usually referring to, say, Russians and Middle Eastern peoples, and you probably wouldn't expect that I am.

Like they're geographically Asian but they are not what some regions might usually connect that label to. E.g. in Australia, Asian references people from Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, and South-East Asia, but nobody would expect you are including people from Russia or the Middle-East unless you made that abundantly clear.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener When you say Russians, do you mean nationality or citizenship? Because if you go by latter, they absolutely are Asian (in the sense of the state existing within Asia). If the former . . . well, I'm pretty sure some are still Northwest Asians.

Carcer

@doppelgreener this might be regional, again

I feel like Asian is pretty widely used to mean/include, for lack of a better word, middle Asia, at least in use in the UK

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh Look at my other posts, I'm discussing how “Asian” can be referring to multiple separate overlapping groups when used in different ways.

@Carcer good point, I'll revise that post to put it from my home region's POV.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener This is a sad kind of No-True-Scotsmanning when residents of a continent or part of world are 'excluded' from it and 'do not count'.

(Reminds of a time when I got told that nah, Russians invading central Europe doesn't count as invading Europe because CEans are not real Europeans.)

doppelgreener

3:36 PM

I feel like you've honed in on one message from me with blinders to the entire context of my words and the conversation.

... Unless you didn't mean that as a criticism of me but as a response to me that's commenting on the broader issue. I don't know how to interpret that at the moment.

Yuuki

I think part of the problem lies in the conjunction of geographic and ethnographic distinctions.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener Response to you, criticism of the practice. I'm not sure whether you actively perpetuate such practices of making some people 'not really count' as members of a region they were born in, reside in and/or originate from.

Yuuki

Going by the definition of "a continent is a landmass bordered by water", really Europe and Asia should be one giant continent.

But then people are uncomfortable with one massive continent so they throw in a bunch of ethnographic/cultural dividers.

vicky_molokh

@Yuuki Yeah, people conflating Continents (Antarctica, Africa, Australia, Eurasia, North America, South America) and Parts of World (America, Africa, Australia, Asia, Europe) is unfortunate.

Yuuki

Side note, even knowing it's a Euro-centric thing, I felt weird about the whole East/West thing growing up. My birth country is in "the East" but it's west of where I grew up. Whereas "the West" is both where I am and east of where I grew up.

And "the West" is both east and west of my birth country in "the East".

vicky_molokh

3:45 PM

@Yuuki Australia (and sometimes Japan) being considered part of the (cultural) West makes the whole thing non-directional entirely.

Carcer

yeah it is a bit of an unfortunate choice of naming convention

vicky_molokh

In many ways, First and Second world are less confusing terms when it comes to visualising the major cultural differences.

Carcer

@vicky_molokh I understand that "I'm not sure whether" and "I don't believe that" can technically mean the same thing so I hope that you weren't really meaning to suggest you were on the fence about whether or not this'd be something doppel does

Yuuki

@vicky_molokh As with all things, it comes with its own baggage though.

vicky_molokh

4:03 PM

I'm not sure if this is a case of language barrier. I'm saying I am not sure whether to parse that statement as actually *supportive* of the practice of saying 'X' and meaning 'X except Y and Z' (with X being Asia and Y and Z being some people are as much at home in the Asian part of the world yet 'not counting'), or just making an example. Including because of the ambiguity between the word used for strict/geographical vs. loose/cultural meaning (as exemplified with 'West' above).

Going home; hoping to get back and catch up with the chat later.

Andras Deak

4:53 PM

@vicky_molokh you just have to go further west...

vicky_molokh

@AndrasDeak You can't keep going West! That's where the Elemental Pole of Water lies!

Yuuki

@vicky_molokh So there's an elemental pole of water and four elemental poles of earth?

Andras Deak

@vicky_molokh which lore is that? :)

vicky_molokh

@AndrasDeak Exalted. exalteddetroit.obsidianportal.com/wikis/creation

doppelgreener

5:08 PM

@vicky_molokh ok, thanks. I have had a fairly anxious few days and misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

Gwideon

hello

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I apologise for causing bad feelings. I know I'm not good at social stuff.

doppelgreener

No problem, this one was on me.

@Gwideon o/

Gwideon

i'm sorry if I've been annoying

NautArch

@Gwideon You are not annoying!

If anything, I may be annoying these past two days :)

Gwideon

5:40 PM

I just feel like I am

GcL

@NautArch That's not the impression I've gotten.

@NautArch If you really really want we can come up with a subtle code that lets you know when I think it's annoying. I'll switch my pen from my left hand to my right and back three times. That'll be the signal.

Gwideon

um according to the tavern I'm not the only person to feel less welcome recently

GcL

@Gwideon whos' the tavern? And that seems like a rather encompassing statement.

Gwideon

the chatroom on the meta site

yeah sorry i'm honestly just tired

Andras Deak

@vicky_molokh I see, thanks

@GcL Tavern on the Meta, on chat.MSE

NautArch

5:50 PM

@Gwideon We are the not the tavern!

We are the Not a Tavern! It's like opposite of them :)

Gwideon

yeah

Yuuki

> not a bar

checks out

Andras Deak

the tavern is not that bad, just very noisy these days

and when it's especially busy you can always find 4 people arguing 10 points simultaneously

mostly civil though

Gwideon

yeah

GcL

6:20 PM

@AndrasDeak So was that war between iron man and captain america! /S

Gwideon

6:33 PM

oof

BESW

8:22 PM

@Gwideon Thank you for writing that answer. I know it means you're getting some unpleasant personal responses.

Gwideon

yeah

i'm kinda used to it honestly but um yeah

it's sad that i'm used to it

BESW

Xenia Rubinos - "Mexican Chef"

►

Also re: brown: I see it used in Pasifika self-referential discussions pretty frequently.

Gwideon

i'm kinda just done

i'm tired of being argued with over my right to be treated like a human being. i'm tired of not being shown respect

sorry

i just got a very frustrating series of comments

BESW

I hear ya. You have no obligation to continue exposing yourself to that.

Gwideon

i'm not sure if something is worthy of a flag

BESW

8:38 PM

I think we need a "condescendingly missing the point" flag.

Gwideon

maybe

Andras Deak

@Gwideon I know you can't help getting pings from this crap but at least you're free from any obligation to argue with jerks

Gwideon

yeah. but i feel like I need to sometimes

BESW

Oof I know that feel.

NautArch

@Gwideon I got off facebook because of that feeling.

Gwideon

8:43 PM

i'm usually not mean or rude when I ask people to use my pronouns but I am hurt when someone chooses not to. I will not deal with that person anymore and i wil see them as lesser for refusing to offer a basic human respect but I will never force someone.

I just said this in the tavern

Andras Deak

@Gwideon I completely understand, and I also get how even just silently putting up with it must be enervating from all your putting up with this everywhere

but by now the people who are giving you a hard time on SE do it on purpose at worst or are completely and hopelessly ignorant at best

Gwideon

yes

BESW

Sometimes it takes a lot for me to be able to let people be wrong on their own and not let them set up camp in my head.

Andras Deak

even I wouldn't want to argue with those people, and I'm much less affected by any of this (on account of being cis)

for the first week I had my share of arguing, but I no longer see the point

BESW

There are times and places where compassionate conversation with people is productive! That is usually one on one, in relative privacy, where we can establish each other's humanity and aren't performing for an audience.

Andras Deak

8:48 PM

or at the beginning of this mess, there were plenty of people who didn't know better and who could be talked to

I know I've had a few chats in chat where we started from "meh, what is this all about even" and ended up with "oh, I guess it's not such a huge deal to pay attention"

vicky_molokh

@Gwideon You're a nice person. This whole SE-war seems to have started with the more militant people (e.g. haters and the proponents of CoC-as-a-stick) of their respective factions being mean to their opponents in the topic, and the nice ones getting caught in the crossfire as a result.

Also, performance for an audience is so much a thing, sadly. I've been recently contemplating that it seems that, unfortunately, in many disputes, a significant percentage of arguments aren't intended to genuinely convince the other side, but to get 'yeah that will show them!' from one's own side, while generally reducing chances of achieving understanding and finding a mutually acceptable solution.

Andras Deak

plus this is a subject with plenty of popcorn material

Gwideon

yeah I don't agree with a militant view of the coc. I'm trying to educate people but I'm getting frustrated.

5

BESW

I don't have a lot of spoons these days, and I've chosen to put them into spaces where I can build things that are of service to people.

Gwideon

I know but yeah it's just so.... hard to deal with right now

Andras Deak

8:58 PM

@Gwideon honestly the people who really need education will never listen to someone in the LGBTQ+ community

vicky_molokh

@Gwideon There seems to be a non-negligible number of people who were willing to do as requested so long as it was a request, but now are no longer willing to do so because of the demanding nature of CoC.

BESW

Stack meta is not a place I can do that right now. I've made one post that that said things which weren't being said, that I had authority to say, and now I'm putting my energy into other places.

Not everybody has to do everything everywhere.

Gwideon

i'm sorry but that's a little stupid why would you hurt a community just to protest. a community that already has to deal with enough crap

Andras Deak

myopia

he wants "to show them", he just doesn't realize that he's not "showing" "them", and he's hurting "those other them" instead

vicky_molokh

@Gwideon The collectivist idea of responsibility and retaliation - sometimes people are prone to it, sadly. When a member of group X is seen siding with what is perceived as a tyrannical/wrong/evil/whatever, other members of the group get assigned responsibility for it and punished.

Andras Deak

9:04 PM

I'm certain there are a lot of people who aren't more transphobic than the majority of the population (yeah, I know), they just don't care enough to realize that these kinds of protests against the status quo being forced by the company cause immense collateral damage

BESW

Julie Zhu's speech at Power of Inclusion comes to mind. There's a power dynamic in play; "I will treat you well so long as I'm in charge" is a mood vulnerable communities are very used to dealing with.

> We’ve heard that cliché that diversity is inviting someone to your party and inclusion is asking them to dance. My problem with this metaphor is that by asking someone to dance you are still the one with the power, as the host. You determine the music, the venue, the context, the rules. If they don’t adhere to the rules, you always have the power to kick them out.

vicky_molokh

Alternative way of explaining it: gifts are exchanged between friends; if an exchange of gifts is mandated by coercion, this is no longer friendship.

Same thing about respect.

BESW

@AndrasDeak I think that's what Oliver Thorn is talking about with the "yer dad" concept in this video on transphobia.

Andras Deak

@vicky_molokh bit of a non sequitur but this reminded me of pics.onsizzle.com/Facebook-0ac362.png

@BESW thanks, I'll give it a watch later

BESW

It's also hard, I think, for some people to really grasp just how much "respect" or "offense" is an underwhelming and inadequate way to understand what's going on.

Jun 12 at 14:04, by BESW

Being offended is a tertiary concern while being safe is still so uncertain, but reframing concerns about safety as "being offended" makes them easier to apply civility figleaves.

Andras Deak

9:14 PM

The problem is that you can't really explain to someone who doesn't face these issues exactly because they are lacking the reference. Without empathy it just bounces off.

vicky_molokh

A lot of people object to redefining the meaning of the word 'safety'.

BESW

I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that having reliable access to healthcare, housing, and not getting stabbed in the street, is a safety issue.

Again, Oliver Thorn touches on that in the video.

vicky_molokh

Healthcare, housing and stabbing aren't what's under dispute here though. The situation is less black and white than that.

BESW

I'm not going to have that discussion here, now.

V2Blast

11:04 PM

@Carcer Yep. I am "brown" myself - I'm of Indian descent. It's often used to refer to either Latinx people or South Asian people or both. (Perhaps Southeast Asian/Pasifika too, I wouldn't know)

trogdor

11:15 PM

@V2Blast yeah actually we have a friend who went to California I think it was? everyone assumed she was Mexican,....

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV