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8:32 AM
@Carcer yeah, assumed that, but that would mean having to play a cycle just to see what the genome page reports if you try to inherit carnivore on an herbivore race. And since apparently that doesn't produce any effect, I would prefer the bonus from the other alternative
 
 
2 hours later…
10:19 AM
Seems the locked door secret in the Demon Soul remake has been solved. Apparently, to open it you need to collect a specific amount of a new item that only spawns while in **pure world tendencies (black or white, doesn't matter)
Now I wonder... does the game online mode still scramble your world tendency like it did in the original?
If that is the case, congratulation! You just tied a tedious fetch quest for a game last secret to a mechanic that was already broken in the original, forcing players to stay offline to be able to control their tendency.
> There is a server median which appears to be calculated by accounting for World Tendency events across the network in aggregate. For instance, if a large number of players are doing things in their World which change their World Tendency towards Black, then the server median will reflect this. Likewise for all White Tendency events.

While playing online the effect of the server median is session based. The current median will be applied when you load a game. This becomes your starting point for World Tendency for this session. During the course of that particular game you can influence W
(for added reference, a description of the world tendency for the original game. As you can see, going online basically meant that you got the current server average value. Also meaning that it was quite hard to get pure tendencies online)
 
10:48 AM
@Derpy Soulslikes seem to like some mixture of grind and doing things in the hopes of a good result without knowing if that will even work (I shudder at the though of being the first player to try finding secrets, or achieving a rare and out of the way ending, requiring replays of the whole game for tripping different flags; guides make it so much faster and reliabler!).
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica "out of the way ending"? Demon Soul only has two endings, and the trigger is a single choice you make at the end of the game (killing an npc or walk away)... I assume that originally the ending was tied to the character Tendency but that got cut with all the uncompleted content the game had when it was originally released.
There are multiple clues to the "evil" plot being far more complex than what you get in the final release.
For example, the fact that the Monumental has voiced lines for being killed.
 
@Derpy Not familiar with Demon Souls, but in Dark Souls 3 one of the endings seems to have rather peculiar requirements for the . . . undead or whatever it's called ending, that you can fail to meet in a playthrough.
 
As for the secret thing, here the problem wouldn't be that it is hidden or arbitrary.
The point is that you have only a limited amount of "events" that influences world tendency. Basically, you need to plan your run of a world if you want to get to a pure tendency, and even more so if you want to see both in a single run of the game.
Now, these coins....
I don't get if their amount is limited per run - someone mentioned "10 coins locations", but I don't know if they respawn when you enter a world
If they don't, that already is kinda... lame.
But that wasn't my point.
My point is that in the original, going online RESETS your world tendency to the current server value, rendering you unable to plan your run in the process.
That meant that usually one would soon or later do an offline run of the game to be able to see every tendency-tied event (or just stay offline forever if they didn't like the pvp)
 
@Derpy Ouch. Reminds me of another soulslike where the counter towards unlocking certain character traits resets on join/part. But way more drastic.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica the idea is that while you have "infinite" opportunities of switching the tendency towards black, you have only a finite number of opportunities of switching it towards white.
Dying in body form moves you towards black in the original, so that was already a bad design choice.
In order to fully control the tendency, most players always played in soul form
Jun 15 at 8:39, by Derpy
Basically, all it means is that you probably will decide to just stay in ghost form the whole game and suicide by jumping off a cliff in the Nexus whenever you get the free resurrection from slaying a boss.
 
11:02 AM
@Derpy What is Tendency anyway, in a few words (not asking you to write up a whole lecture, just what does it actually do)?
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica basically it was a poorly implemented mechanic that probably was the leftover of a much bigger "morality" system that *I theorize was the original trigger for the two endings.
There are two "Tendencies"
World Tendency is the Tendency an area has. The game is divided in 5 zones accessed from a central hub (think Dark soul 3 - the Firelink temple is actually modeled to be reminiscent of the Demon soul Nexus.) Each zone has its separate tendency.
At the beginning of the game, the tendency is neutral for every zone. Some actions move the tendency to black or white. Think it as a scale: -100 is pure black, 0 neutral and +100 is pure white. Some actions moves the scale up or down by a certain amount.
As you move to white, enemies become less aggressive, as you move to black they get harder. If I remember correctly, drops are also influenced, white getting more drops but black getting rarer ones.
Also, when you reach a "pure" tendency (max/min values) some special events are unlocked in the area.
Ranging from extra zones, mini-bosses and some minor "quest"
For example, in the Shrine of Storm area while in pure white (PW) an NPC appears that ask you to find a sword. The sword appears in another "level" of the same world - only when you are in PW.
Taking the sword back to the NPC actually triggers a battle against him (he betrays you and tries to kill you)
This "world" tendency is influenced by actions you perform in a specific world.
To summarize, dying a lot in body form or killing "friendly" characters moves to to black.
Killing bosses or other minor-bosses moves you to white
As you can see, IF you have enough "resurrection" items to be able to switch from soul to body form, you can get to pure black just by jumping down a cliff # times in a world.
Tendency is NOT recalculated until you leave an area.
so, basic strategy was:
 
11:23 AM
@Derpy Reminds me of the supposed endings of Silent Hill, which depended on whether the protagonist spent most of the game high or low on health, or something along those lines. (Haven't played, but did read some bits about it.)
 
a) **always play in soul form so that if you die tendency is not influenced**
b) get close to the final bosses of a world. Then switch to pure black by dying about 8 times in the world. In a single run without exiting the level do all pure black events and mini-boss, that should get you close to pure white. Kill the final boss of the area, that should get you the final point for pure white.
c) repeat for every world
As you can see, the problem here is that as soon as you went online all this strategy falls apart since the server basically pushes its state on your game.
 
so, if you where close to pure white but the server is middle black, as soon as you go online you get middle black. Get offline? The tendency stays at middle black
Originally, it didn't matter that much. After you did all the event once, there was no reason for doing them again other than "for fun" - no new drops, nothing...
But if these "coins" are only available in pure tendencies.... You want to keep playing in pure tendencies, and IF the online still has that problem, that becomes a severely broken mechanic that punishes you for playing a game mode.
Notice that I say IF, I don't know if that was changed in the remake. I hope so, but I fear not.
 
one would certainly hope that if they bothered to remake the game they would fix the weird ideas that didn't work too well
(I have never played it to be clear)
 
@trogdor I fear saying that would be a nice way to start a witch hunt on Arqade, with you playing as the witch.
As I said, I find these remakes "lazy", not meaning that they are poor graphically... but just that the "staff" tried to stay extremely safe in the changes they made.
 
11:35 AM
mm
 
So, while you get new enemies, armors and such - all things that few players would complain about - you will rarely see mechanics changes or restored cut content.
for example, this remake adds a "mirror mode" that is just what the name says - every location is mirrored. "Safe" change.
 
I do usually avoid game remakes
although I will admit I have probably picked up a couple and liked them mostly because they let me play a game I had nostalgia for
 
Restoring the "permadeath" mechanics that the original game was meant to have would be more risky, with players complaining "permadeath is bad WY YO DO THIS"
so, the game has to be the same with only "minor" additions (minor in term of impact on the game, not minor as in "less-work")
 
(actually now that I think about it I think I've only gotten remake games of games I wanted to try but never had the opportunity to play XD)
to be fair
 
the only "big" gameplay change I heard about is drastically cutting the number of healing grass you could carry. That probably has little effect since in the original game you had too many in the first place.
 
11:41 AM
I do feel like getting mad about the changes to a game in a remake is a little silly unless you specifically can't get a copy of the old game anymore
 
@trogdor CoughBlizzardcough.
 
That said, could backfire a lot in a specific zone. (without annoying you with too much details, that zone had a somehow poor "poisoning" mechanics, you walked in a swamp and basically got poisoned every # seconds - meaning you either spammed healing items or poison curing items)
 
although I will admit that you probably usually can't and remakes are often done of games you probably can't get copies of the originals for
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica yeah,... yeah
is true
 
 
1 hour later…
1:02 PM
back here, was busy for a while
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica As for the second type of Tendency, that is Character tendency.
That is a basic "alignment" value. Goes up by killing evil npc, down by killing friendly ones.
Has almost no influence on the game outside two specific things, and that contributes to the idea Tendency was originally going to be tied to the game ending.
First thing Character Tendency does is changing the damage of three very specific weapons in the game. One gets best damage at full black, one at pure white and the third at both
The second thing it does... When you are at pure white character tendency you are given a single item from an npc. It is a ring, so there is no reason for getting more than one on multiple playthru.
Another ring can be won from a quest that requires pure black character. In this case you are tasked to kill almost every npc in the nexus.
This permanently damages your game until the next "new game +" run since you basically kill the vendors that provides you services like weapon repair, spell switching, inventory storage and such
Most players do this quest only once only to get the ring, and wait till they are at the final boss of the game so that they can quickly move to the next new game afterward.
As you can see, both mechanics are quite unbalanced.
For world tendency, you are basically punished for playing the game as intended and use body form when you are given the chance (beating a boss turns you back to body form, that's why I mentioned players killing themselves in the nexus after each boss. Death in the Nexus does not affect tendency) so players just play in soul form most of the time.
This in turn unbalances the rings feature since while in soul form you will probably always wear a specific ring that reduces the disadvantage of being in soul form. Considering that you get two ring slots, and you want to also have the Thief Ring equipped most of the time... (reduces enemy detection, useful everywhere and basically required in a specific area because of constant snipper fire otherwise)
Character tendency is the opposite, as playing the game and beating bosses will normally push you to white. To stay black you would need to kill friendly npc, but that damages you as explained before.
Technically, you could kill other players online to gain "evil points" too, but then you would have to go online in the first place, and that had its fair share of problems with World Tendency as already described.
It was an unbalanced mechanic either way.
Not blaming FromSoftware since I still believe that what we got was just a cut-version of the original plan, but it is sad that you get a remake and don't use the opportunity to restore the original vision.
 
1:26 PM
@Derpy Being involved in some cases of remaking stuff, I agree that it's sad but also have to point out that there are often factors that force one away from making some changes, even if said changes are part of some original grander vision.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Oh, that I don't argue with. Even if it is the need to play it safe to avoid backfires, I do recognize that developers often have their hand tied. I just say that it is sad and a wasted opportunity to make something better (as in, more complete than the original was)
 
@Derpy Hmm, perhaps I read too much designer intent into the meaning of 'wasted opportunity' (i.e. thought it was described as wasted by the designers/authors/coders/&c.).
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Wasted as wasted by the company as a whole, but not necessarily because it was their fault
Suppose it is summer and you asked for a day off work to go to the beach.
Then it rains.
You "wasted" your work off day, but it is not like the rain it is your fault. Just in some other scenario you probably would have had more fun.
And sorry if this doesn't translate well to English I suppose.
 
@Derpy It's probably imprecise in many languages. I had the wrong idea of who caused the wasting, that's all.
 
don't worry, I realize it is quite unclear.
I just say it is a pity that it had to go that way.
 
1:53 PM
anyway, at least now it should be clear why I said that the original mechanics were unbalanced and I wouldn't have added more thing depending on those.
 
@Derpy Yeah, it's understandable now.
 
2:33 PM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Found.
> In Water

Requirement: In order to receive this ending, James must act in a suicidal manner. So if you are careless and keep your health low and do other things that might give James an idea of killing himself you should get this ending. If you wish to get this ending, do the following:

Examine Angela's Knife in your Inventory
Read the Diary on the Hospital Rooftop
See the message to James on the wall in Neely's Bar, Dark South Vale
After viewing the videotape, go down to the Reading Room on 2F of the Nightmare Hotel (Lake View Hotel) and listen to the recorded conversation with the head
Silent Hill 2
Wonder how heavy is the "health" influence over all the other options in the list.
 
@Derpy No clue. But the whole combination of factors would be worrying for me as a hypothetical player, because I often get obsessive about checking plot-related things, which would mean my actions being interpreted as going for the water ending.
(Games have misinterpreted the motivation between some of my choices in morbid topics before, so the odds of it happening again are plausible.)
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I would reply "Artemis", but I guess you wouldn't understand :P
That said, in that case I would say that the games WANTS to turn your choice against you so I guess it was done on purpose.
 
@Derpy I was thinking of a certain text game about afterlife, which misinterpreted my highly curious character as being one unwilling to move on.
 
2:50 PM
A part of me would kinda love seeing your reaction having to play a game called "The Witch House". Not very related, but in a sort of weird way. I guess you would probably hate it.
I know I kinda do, but luckily for me I never actually played it. Spoilers saved me.
 
@Derpy What's the concept / catch / whatever?
 
> A young girl, Viola, is drawn inexorably to a mysterious manor that seems to change behind her back. It is a place of pain, turmoil and death. Plumb its detestable depths and abominable history. Untangle riddles that bar your perilous path. And flee the hellish halls of The Witch’s House.
Steam description. Was originally a free game, the steam version is a remaster with improved graphics.
Basically, little girl in haunted house, survival/puzzle game.
Mind you, has highly positive reviews, so it is not a bad game at all.
 
@Derpy Is that different from the one with silly trials and questionable motivation?
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica ?
are you... do you actually remember me mentioning a similar game before?
 
@Derpy Some months ago there was a discussion of a game where a character got invited to a haunted house, solved some trials, and got sacrificed or eaten or something by a distant relative upon succeeding or the like?
 
2:56 PM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica AAAAHHHHHH, nope you are talking about a game someone made on Dreams.
Dreams is a game available on PS4, basically a toolkit for making small games similar to the old Little Big Planet
this one instead... I think it was originally made with the old RPG Maker.
unrelated.
For a second, I though you had recognized the game because I mentioned it before.
Mind you, it is probably not a bad game, has a lot of positive reviews....
It is just that it commits a "sin" for me - a very specific thing I kinda hate in games/stories
if you are interested, see here
Jul 24 '19 at 12:00, by Derpy
short version. The game I was talking about is a game called The Witch House. The premise is that you are a young girl that is trying to escape from an infested house of a witch. In the end you discover that actually you never had any agency in the outcome of the story.
 
@Derpy No-or-highly-limited-agency games seem hard to pull off well. Quantum Break did it in a way (its cosmology is a stable time loop, which it admits early and keeps exploring it), and is one of the few times I think that worked well.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica read the following messages too,it is not just "zero agency", it is the sum of multiple things
 
3:16 PM
@Derpy Is it long? I think the twist could be implemented in a cool or a deeply disappointing way and it's hard to tell which it is (and I know the twist now anyway).
I'm not sure whether trying the game is worth it. I have a few things in the queue already for now.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica that I can't say. I skipped it after getting to know the twist.
As I said, I don't like the idea in the first place
 
@Derpy I'm not sure how I feel about it. But I know different people feel differently about most ideas-that-can-be-implemented-in-art, and it's reasonable for different individuals to gravitate towards different works, and, conversely, avoid others. Hopefully everyone finds enough of the former and minimise consumption of the latter (that's per each specific individual, not as some sort of generalised average).
 
3:35 PM
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica sure, the problem there is that IF I didn't see the spoiler, I would have assumed a different experience, and had I dropped actual money $$ for the game... don't think I would have liked that.
But again, that's just me.
 
@Derpy It does seem to be like an awkward situation where either word gets out and people seeking to be surprised are denied access to the experience they gravitate towards, or people who seek out not to be surprised are offered a surprise without warning.
 
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica see the original chat with trogdor, kinda related.
The problem of having you play an evil character - something that not everyone will like, but at the same time without you realizing that from the start. So, exactly what you say, either way someone will get mad.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:17 PM
Anyone needed this?
 
@Derpy A character whose personality is built around a rather specific party game?
@Derpy Did take a look, impressions seem in line with the above.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:09 PM
Lol
 

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