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6:32 AM
@lisardggY I am especially curious to see what Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. does now that their title is something of a misnomer.
 
@BESW Yeah. I need to catch up on it (I quit around ep6).
 
For Winter Soldier, well, I went in with only the hope that I'd see Steven Rogers be an awesome leader and moral paragon, and I pretty much got that, so anything else was gravy,
I very nearly gave up on AoS but I'm stubborn.
 
I liked both the main Hydra plot and the secondary Winter Soldier plot. Surprisingly, I think the weakest parts of the movie were the action sequences.
 
I think the Winter Soldier plot could've had a bit more time.
 
And, of course, the fact that the movie could have been much improved by shaving 45 minutes off of it.
 
6:37 AM
Most movies could.
 
Yes. I believe that somewhere around 2001, Peter Jackson walked around Hollywood with a gun, killing most film editors and sending the rest into hiding.
2
 
And I'm glad we got Falcon, and it made sense he showed up in this film, but seriously, would it kill them to put a little red in the costume?
I hold out hope for the Black Panther and the hard-light upgrade.
 
It's interesting that in the Captain American movies they work hard to avoid the classic spandex superhero bodysuits.
 
(But I really really hope Snipes is out of the running for the role.)
Batman Begins led the charge on that, and most of the superhero films are following suit; more texture, more armour, muted colours, more of an army-hardware feel.
 
Whereas in the comics, even non-superheroes find reason to wear spandex. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_Sitwell
 
6:53 AM
 
Wow, that's a badly written article.
First sentence of first paragraph of first section: "Bob returns in...".
What? Who? Returns from where?
 
Well, he's a Deadpool character, so...
 
7:10 AM
Deadpool extends the character's incoherency outwards into media describing Deadpool, you say?
 
7:20 AM
Did you ever doubt that he's a Wiki editor?
[sigh] Just ran across some media blog mouthing off about how Cap is boring because he's not a jerk.
 
7:53 AM
Both Thor and Tony Stark are jerks. Stark's a good character. Thor is not. It's not the jerkiness that makes the character.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:24 AM
Cap is interesting (and unusual!) because he is the man who is innocent because he's strong enough to make the right choices. Very few other superheroes can say that--Clark, perhaps, but he's got some weird extenuating circumstances which make it rather a different thing for him.
Cap has a lot of tension, but most of it is about figuring out what the right choices are in a world stage that's a lot less morally obvious than WWIII, rather than struggling to make those choices.
 
9:36 AM
...I really need to get my hands on some more of the Captain America comic run.
@SQB Hi!
 
SQB
@BESW Hi.
/me thought it was another SF&F room.
 
@BESW Although that always felt like a bit of a cop-out. As you say, he's strong enough to make the right choices, but that leaves with a whole "Oh, sure, Cap can do it because he's a super-soldier war-hero type".
And the figuring-out-what's-right tends to turn into a didactic morality play.
 
@lisardggY Well, there's a difference between making the choice and successfully enacting it.
 
@SQB Nah, we're more of a creamy, yellowy theme here.
 
@SQB Welcome to the best chat room design on the Stack.
 
SQB
9:40 AM
@BESW Fitting, for the best designed avatar on the Stack!
 
 
3 hours later…
12:37 PM
@BESW did you see this week's episode?
(I haven't seen Winter Soldier yet, was going to see it next weekend, but at this point that's fallen through)
 
12:53 PM
@waxeagle why did phil post that comment? I specifically wrote my meta so as to avoid mentioning that at all
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't know. I'm debating responding. I'm trying to figure out how to express that this isn't personal, no one is calling for mxy to be removed, I mentioned him in my comment because that's the only issue that someone can point to with the mods right now
And yeah, it's one I'm more than willing to complain about (and I think Phil got a bit pissed off at us for talking about it in main the other day).
 
I'd say, let it sit.
He's right, inasmuch as that should not be a motive for supporting the election of new mods.
Whether it's useful to point out... well, I suspect it's that, too.
 
yes he did fairly say at the end of his answer to the meta question that he was not saying I as the Op posted for that reason
so Ill give him that
 
yeah... I'll just point out here that I quietly suggested a new election to mxy last year chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/11?m=11464399#11464399 and was completely ignored.
 
1:15 PM
Tonight's music starts with Aqua's topical hit Cartoon Heroes (song itself starts at about 0:37).
Next up is The Incredible String Band performing Robot Blues, the song which inspired Bender Bending Rodríguez of Futurama fame.
Then stick around while Mark Aaron James takes the stage with another song about a depressed fictional character, Aquaman's Lament.
And to wrap up this evening's musical medley, David J. will share This Vicious Cabaret, a song written for and featured in the original comic series V for Vendetta, and released on record to accompany it.
Thank you, you've been lovely, remember to tip the bartender.
 
1:38 PM
lol aquaman
I really hope WB & DC never attempt to make a movie about him
 
I really hope they do it right.
 
They've tried to give him a TV show at least twice, including one abortive spinoff from Smallville.
 
SO I guess somewhere somehow you could maybe make a compelling aquaman show where he wasn't the comic relief
to me though he's basically on the same level as the wonder twins
 
Thing is, he's not.
 
1:42 PM
leaving aside an environmental/climate change related story how do you take someone who's superpowers all have to do with being in water and talking/controlling other things in the water and make their powers/story relevant to humans who in the majority live on land.
 
He's a KING, with armies and magic at his command in addition to super-strength and durability, night vision, sonar-like hearing, and in some versions a cybernetic hand.
 
hahaha
I have seen the hand
and I do know about the king stuff, but I always feel all of that starts to drift into Namor territory who is better at being that kind of ocean powered anti-hero
 
Then you can add telepathy with most marine life, super-speed while swimming, and the ability to breath underwater.
@JoshuaAslanSmith Well, Aquaman's not an anti-hero, and Namor's a totally different franchise (Marvel, not DC).
 
@waxeagle all I can say is, if it comes from mxyzplk there is going to be a problem
I can accept messages from the moderators from Brian and C.Ross
but I do not trust mxyzplk to be speaking for the moderation team nor do I trust him to judge my behavior
which is actually why I came on here
the "new moderator" thing annoys me, because my feeling is that what we really need is to replace a moderator
 
@KRyan hence my comment and answer to the original meta question
 
1:52 PM
@waxeagle that seems...
I mean, if there's significant discussion of the issue going on there, that is really bad
 
@KRyan it got disruptive enough the other week that we decided that taking it out of the main room was better for everyone. It's still public, it's just somewhere people can avoid if they want to.
2 days ago, by Joshua Aslan Smith
@Lord_Gareth I would totally chat this up with you in a side chat though I feel like its a better convo for sitting at a bar
The relevant posts:
2 days ago, by Joshua Aslan Smith
mxy doesn't even necessarily need to be removed, but maybe add a new mod thats more active than C.Ross and Brian so its not Mxy being the only constant active Mod voice in rpg.se and also maybe get Mxy to not try to have the role seperation (but within the same account) that he currently has. If he had a 2nd account where he got very biased and subjective while his main current account was only for mod use
 
@waxeagle I don't think it should be here, I think all of it needs to be on the meta
 
And for completeness (this isn't a new thought). Here's me...last October:
in RPG General Chat, Oct 1 '13 at 2:33, by wax eagle
@mxyzplk I have a question, and I hope you don't take it the wrong way, but have y'all considered asking for a new round of elections? I notice Cross and Brian haven't been around as much lately and you seem to be taking the brunt of the heat for things.
 
@KRyan This
 
@KRyan yes, anything actionable does need to be on meta.
Part of what we've done on the bar is discussed how to go to meta with things that are actionable and worth making noise about
 
1:57 PM
The users on chat make up a very small sub-section of the userbase of the site in general. Restricting it to chat therefore skews the debate according to those who are most active in chat
 
@Phil true, and it doesn't help that the moderators as a group have decided to opt out of chat.
 
@waxeagle I have a problem with that too
and I don't think the mod-initiated meta question on the subject is sufficient to justify it
 
@Phil I think everyone is very aware that it needs to go to meta. But when anything even smelling like this topic hits meta, the fit hits the shan. So there's a sense it needs to be approached carefully and presented as clearly as possible.
2
 
However, as commented and answered to the 'add mod' meta, I think that suggesting ways of getting around an issue that already has systems in place to deal with it is also extremely unhelpful
 
Right now I think it's not clear, at all, to anyone, which is why meta attempts to address it are flopping.
 
2:00 PM
If you don't like a mod, use the system in place to deal with it. Don't try to sidestep it with other things.
If you feel that system is not working then it is a different issue that needs addressing
 
@Phil unfortunately, the "system" such as it is, is really limited
 
@KRyan So then that is the issue that needs dealing with
 
sheer inertia and establishment mean that it takes an enormous concerted effort to demonstrate, well, anything
 
And that's kinda simplifying a very complex thing.
Maybe some citizens "don't like a mod," but I for one don't fall in that category.
 
I don't like him, personally, and I am also galled to think that he effectively represents this community
 
2:04 PM
I can't say I fall into that category either. I have a very specific issue with 1 mod on 1 front.
 
but, as has been said many times, this isn't the place for that
 
@BESW right which I undestand but I feel like for good or for ill namor vs. aquaman comparisons are valid given their similaritieies
 
huh, three questions bumped to the top by a 1-rep user...
let's see how this went...
 
@waxeagle thanks for posting them here for anyone that is interested
 
There's several issues at hand, I think, with different people focusing different things to various degrees, and a lot of thinking that some people share another person's vendetta whenever they mention anything even near it.
 
2:06 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith that post by the way, went completely unresponded to
 
right
 
In some areas/people there's a sense that anyone asking for RAW must hate anything else.
In others there's a feeling that justified statements are being poisoned by unjustified incivility.
 
@BESW there's a reason I have not and probably will not take much of a role in the meta discussion; anything I say could be used as a red herring to discredit the side I support.
 
In others there's a sense that powers--moderator and citizen--are being abused to further personal agendas.
 
all this should be in the bar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
2:08 PM
Lot's of discussions going on in here! :P
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith maybe
 
And not enough drinks!
 
38 messages moved from RPG General Chat
 
Thanks @BESW
 
Aviations for everyone*
*besw and non consumers of imaginary alcohol receive Shirley temples instead.
 
2:10 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith /me swigs
 
@BESW that, ultimately, is my problem: I have literally never had a conversation with mxyzplk on any topic in which he did not insult me
 
I'm genuinely interested as to exactly how many people have a problem with him. I tend to find that the arguments get dominated by a few people, which might not give a true reflection of the issue
 
@KRyan I also have this problem. But I do not extend it to accusing him of abusing his powers, or deliberately misbehaving in any other way.
 
that includes the time I volunteered to analyze every character in his game in order to offer critique and suggestions for recognizing and improving imbalances in the game that were detrimental to the game
@BESW yes, I make that accusation separately
 
2:12 PM
@Phil it's true. There are probably a limited number of people who have had sufficient interaction with him to form an opinion. And I'm not sure what the subset of those people who have an issue with him would be
 
but the system's too opaque for me to offer evidence
 
The vast majority of interaction on this site should involve little if any moderator interaction
 
Right, we have like 8.3k users but really only roughly 1100 avid users (rep above 150) and its really an even smaller subset of that 1100 or so that make up the core users of the site in terms of posts and being in chat and whatnot
 
@waxeagle Indeed. One of my main issues whenever this problem comes up is that it always feels like its a small number of users with very loud voices. If you were able to get a true count of those that feel strongly about actually doing something then I believe it would strengthen your case considerably
You see, I am not against what you are arguing as such. I am more fed up with the number of times it gets raised without anything getting resolved one way or the other
 
@Phil That's oddly irrelevant to whether or not the moderator is removed. Interestingly the moderator removal procedure means it comes down to the votes of the other two moderators. Which makes trying to remove mxy a moot point as of right now.
 
2:15 PM
@waxeagle Isn't that assuming that you follow the process set out to deal with this kind of thing?
 
@waxeagle good to know.
 
(I'm not, in general, in favor of his removal btw, just making that note)
@Phil right. I'll find the MSO post again
 
If, as seems to be the case, that those who want something done are unable or unwilling to use the official process set out to deal with it, then that becomes a moot point I would think
 
meta.stackoverflow.com/a/157258/170797 This is the procedure so everyone is aware
MOST IMPORTANT QUOTE THERE:
> I strongly urge anyone involved in such a situation to do what they can to resolve outstanding issues before resorting to this.
 
@waxeagle well that has clearly failed, and it has been tried
 
2:17 PM
@KRyan there has been no direct attempt
 
mxy is extremely derisive of any suggestion that his behavior is anything less than perfect
 
5 messages moved from RPG General Chat
 
@waxeagle you mean taking it to mxy directly? false
 
@KRyan no, in public, on meta
 
@waxeagle ah, sure
 
2:18 PM
@waxeagle and I think this is absolutely key
 
private conversations get us nowhere. This chat will not get us anywhere unless there is a direct meta post or email to SE as a result
 
and why I am hacked off with the latest meta question about increasing the number of moderators
 
...to not put too fine a point on it, I tend to think of our meta as fairly broken anyway
 
@KRyan meh, it's only broken if we let it be
 
The basic issue is that at the moment, your efforts often come across as more than a little 'back stabbing' and underhand, because you never address the issue head on. It always comes up sideways as part of something else.
 
2:20 PM
Oh, hi @Lord_Gareth
 
@Phil Yes, but look at the flip side of things, too.
 
Either complaining in chat, in comments on a question, or in pseudo- related questions on meta
@BESW I am trying to
The thing is that by the sounds of it you are going to need to convince the other mods that there is an issue here
 
@phil the genesis for my meta post is related to this whole shebang, but I wanted to sidestep a lot of all that. My post isn't trying to be disingenuous. I honestly feel that mxy as the only publicly (discussions, chat, etc.) active moderator is the issue not mxy as a moderator.
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith I accept that, but some of the comments from other users alluded to the fact they were supporting your proposal for different reasons
all I am saying is that if you don't attempt to address this in plain sight, with a straightforward discussion on meta, it is not going to do you any favours, and I feel it is likely to inhibit attempts to secure the support you need to take it forward
 
so more mods is not an attempt to water down mxy's activity but rather an attempt to strengthen RPG.SE's community by adding other voices to contribute from that same authority.
 
So raise a specific meta question about this issue, citing those questions and answers as reasons to back you up
Why would that be a bad thing to do?
 
In order to calm things down and get a general policy answer, I had to be extremely conciliatory about something I'd tried very hard to avoid in the first place (in comments now deleted).
 
I genuinely am very confused as to why this whole thing hasn't been directly confronted in its own meta question.
 
@Phil Honestly? I think a lot of people are afraid of the fallout.
 
2:25 PM
in my experience, mxy is very disingenuous about meta
several times he has posted something with Voice of the Mods, and then touted that as consensus and policy
 
@KRyan but the other mods would see it
 
ignoring higher-voted answers to the same issue
@Phil I don't think the other mods are unaware, though I won't speculate on their feelings
 
@BESW honestly? I think the whole issue has gotten to the point where fallout is unavoidable however it is approached
 
@Phil Starting to agree. Can we craft something here that will lay out the issues in an orderly, organized and tactful fasion?
 
I just want it to stop dragging the site down every time it comes up, and unless something direct is done to address it, that will keep on happening
 
2:26 PM
diamond mods are like RPG.SE's version of the 4e mafia. For better and for worse they have not publicly shown division over anything
 
I once flagged a chat comment about violence against women and got called a "wussy." When I protested a comment comparing an SE citizen's actions to genocide, I was told I was oversensitive and out of line.
 
@BESW I remember that latter one
at that point it didn't even faze me since I had come to expect that and worse from mxy
 
@waxeagle I do not feel that is something I should take part in, as I do not feel strongly enough about the issue. However, it is the course of action which I see as the best for you to take. There will be fallout, but as I say, I think that is pretty much unavoidable however you approach it.
 
I've been called a "shmoo" and a "wonk" and accused of advancing an agenda for sincerely trying to adhere to and enforce basic question guidelines, when those guidelines were being violated in ways mxy was okay with.
 
@BESW All this stuff needs to be gathered together as part of your case
 
2:29 PM
@BESW and here I thought you felt he didn't allow his biases to affect his moderating?
 
I am trying to remain as impartial as I can here :o)
 
@Phil which is why I haven't done it, honestly. a ton of the evidence is now unavailable (deleted comments), and even collecting what is still available takes an enormous amount of time
 
@KRyan Oh, he never used actual moderator powers in ways I could interpret as abusive.
 
I try to avoid bringing the subject up because I know it's disingenuous to complain when I am too lazy/busy to do the work necessary to put my money where my mouth is
but to be fair, it is a lot of work
 
I think that's fair enough
 
2:31 PM
@KRyan yes. That's why it can't just be one person
it's going to take a village for reform here.
 
@KRyan I gave you one link above, and here's the original pogrom comment. Here's wonk
 
@waxeagle I think that's what I've been failing to say so far
 
@BESW eh, a lot of my objection is his selective use of mod powers to promote his own agenda
 
And I'm pretty sure "shmoo" is a deleted comment somewhere on this thread.
 
@KRyan that will be hard to prove
 
2:32 PM
Every time I suggest people do something they say something along the lines of 'the system is laborious, I don't have time' etc, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that there are a number of you will similar issues who can work together to build a case
 
@waxeagle precisely why I haven't tried
though there was at least one case where I complained about him to another moderator, and he said I had to flag that sort of thing, and I said "I did, it was declined as not helpful," which surprised and concerned the moderator I was speaking to
which I took to mean that mxy had just brushed the flag under a rug
 
@KRyan not necessarily the case. mod flag handling is nearly completely opaque to the flagger.
 
I may also be able to dig up the comment thread where he argues that his misbehaviour is no different from any other citizen's (arguable) and is part of his rights as a citizen to participate in this site (laughable because it defies the basic SE behaviour contract), and if we have a problem with it we should flag it (which he then aggressively defends, and verbally attacks those who do so).
 
@waxeagle sure, unless a mod chooses to comment on it to the flagger, which is the case here. But yes, circumstantial evidence at best
 
@KRyan I do know that on at least two occasions actions you attributed to mxy were undertaken by another mod and/or were initiated by citizen flagging (mine).
 
2:35 PM
@KRyan if revealed you to have flagged something that's a violation of the mod agreement.
 
@BESW I know, and it's entirely possible that the third moderator, not mxy, had been the one to dismiss the flag
@waxeagle oh, no, I mentioned to him that I had flagged mxy, and I took his surprise as meaning that he wasn't the one to dismiss it
mxy dismissing a flag on his own comment as Not Helpful strikes me as fairly abusive
but I can't confirm that's what happened, it might have been the third moderator
 
I have never seen concrete evidence of mxy doing anything abusive with his actual mod powers, only things which were justified but might have been hastily or impatiently handled, and almost always involved other citizens tagging things first.
 
@KRyan yes. It's not a violation of anything, but it's widely considered bad form.
 
In other words, I've seen evidence that he's human, not that he's maliciously abusing his privileges.
 
I have seen several times where he wiped all comments to an answer (legitimate by the rules, as much as it irritates me), and then effectively re-added his own wiped comment back
(I assume it was him doing the wiping due to timing)
the result of this is that the record stands as him stating his case without any answer, and the action also raises no notice to the rest of us. In as much as comments are minor and ephemeral, it's not supposed to matter much, but the reality is anyone reading the answer now sees his side without seeing others'
and that strikes me as abusive
 
2:39 PM
@KRyan If and when something comes up, grab a couple of those cases as possible overreaches and the other mods can investigate (OR SE com team folks).
 
but demonstrating that sequence of events... no idea even if that could be done
 
Anyways, I need to go off for a bit. Although I don't necessarily support your overall issue, I hope you are able to come up with something that moves this whole thing forward to being resolved one way or the other, and I reiterate that in my view, the way of doing this that will reflect on you the best is as openly and honestly as you can. I agree there is likely a lot of work to put a case together, but there's a whole bunch of you to share the effort.
 
@waxeagle to be fair, I haven't seen it in a long while; it's entirely possible that the other moderators said something to him privately on that front after the last time I brought it up
or, though I tend to doubt it, he revised his behavior on his own
 
@KRyan He does seem to be working on things in the last few months.
 
@BESW I've largely tried to just avoid him as much as possible so I suppose I attribute any change in my perceptions to that rather than any changes he may or may not have made
 
2:54 PM
Since we seem to have reached a lull point on that topic...
@JoshuaAslanSmith Admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time looking into Namor, and my Aquaman knowledge is mostly from when he brushes up against other characters I'm more interested in.
[finishes Shirley Temple and orders a Roy Rogers]
I'm going to get so virtually fat.
 
hah
 
But I'm a sucker for pomegranate.
 
You can always order a Gibson...almost 0 calories :)
check that, I've got the wrong drink
 
...isn't that gin and vermouth?
 
what????
@waxeagle 2oz of gin has around 200 calories
 
2:59 PM
And if you mean a Gunner, I don't drink bitters.
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith different version
> Other stories involve different Gibsons, such as an apocryphal American diplomat who served in Europe during Prohibition. Although he was a teetotaller, he often had to attend receptions where cocktails were served. To avoid an awkward situation, Gibson would ask the staff to fill his martini glass with cold water and garnish it with a small onion so that he could pick it out among the gin drinks.
 
Ah, the cocktail version of the Bruce Wayne (sparkling apple juice in a champagne glass).
....okay, so I need to stop listening to my music on random. My brain is now convinced that Aqua's My Mamma Said is the flip side of Tool's Eulogy.
 
3:22 PM
@waxeagle I know of this, but if you walk into any bar in america and order a gibson you're getting a real martini w/ cocktail onions vs. what you describe in that story
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, I was only relayed the apocryphal story recently
 
Goodnight! Gotta go sleep off the virtual grenadine.
 
I used to drink a lot of gibsons before I started to like olives
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith olives are awesome :)
(most likely part of the problem is that most people are largely only familiar with the bland black olives or the green ones)
 
my issue now is I still like gibsons but cocktail onions are completely hit or miss. Ive had awesome cocktail onions that were crunchy little sour gems and others that were huge and mushy. I cant find consistency
in general olives have a similar quality no matter what bar you end up
@waxeagle my current garnishes of choice though (for manhattans which I drink much more often than martinis) are tipsy cherries and luxardo cherries.
 
3:34 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith ooh those look yummy. The missus is fond of Amaretto sour (or just amaretto in lemonade with a bit of maraschino cherry juice)
 
right so tipsy cherries are whiskey soaked run of the mill maraschino (like those on sundaes) cherries vs. luxardo cherries which are in a syrup containing actual marachino cherry liquor.
the flavor in luxardo cherries is deeper, richer, more complex and it contributes more to the overall drink experience in a cocktail, but sometimes I just want the giant cherry crunch but with less sugar which tipsy cherries are great for. Would totally put tipsy cherries on ice cream with some kind of liqueur
when I used to work at a gourmet ice cream shop I used to get a free scoop to take home every shift, vanilla with chambord was good also vanilla and the house made carmel syrup with bourbon
 
sadly, alcohol based food products are pretty rarely available since they can't sell real booze in most grocers here :( (beer only in TN, beer and wine in GA)
 
@waxeagle PA has stricter liquor control laws, you should be able to buy whiskey cherries in stores though, the cherries themselves are soaked in whiskey but the fluid they are bottled in is not whiskey
I can get whiskey cherries and bitters like angosturas in PA
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith will keep eyes peeled :)
 
angosturas bitters is 50% alcohol and yet it can be sold on supermarket shelves in PA (you can't even buy domestic beer in a pa supermarket
@waxeagle check the soda aisle, theres usually a small mixers section where they sell mostly non-alcoholic mixer powders, syrups, garnishes etc.
 
3:43 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith yep, I know where you're talking about
I'm a tonic drinker :)
 
failing that you should be able to order either of these cherries online without breaking state laws
I live in the 2nd most anti-alcohol state (utah of course takes 1st)
 
yeah, our issues here pale in comparison. No or limited Sunday sales and lack of liquor in the grocery stores are my two biggest complaints.
 
the only way you can buy hard liquor in PA is through state controlled and run Stores aka state stores. Wine can only be sold at state stores or production sites like vineyards. beer is only available as takeout singles and 6s from restauarnts or cases from beer distributers
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith sigh
 
we only just recently allowed wine to be shipped
 
3:46 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith do you guys have hybrid store|restuarants that basically function as beer markets?
 
that does exist
so the work around is if you have a "sit down restaurant" so some pa supermarkets have a cafe and you can buy beer at the cafe, but the transaction has to be seperate from your main shopping transaction
 
gotcha.
 
and the beer cant leave the cafe except after you purchase it to take it hoem
 
is there any legislative push to loosen things up?
 
though I think thats less state laws about venue and more about personnel training. they only have to train the cafe staff on liquor laws vs. the whole staff.
 
3:47 PM
I know TN was recently working on wine in grocers, I need to check up on that again
 
yes and no, Corbet who was the most recently elected governor mentioned doing something about it. but there hasnt been much since
Thomas W. "Tom" Corbett (born June 17, 1949) is an American politician who is the 46th and current Governor of Pennsylvania. A member of the Republican Party, Corbett was first elected Governor in 2010 and was sworn into office on January 18, 2011. Born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Corbett is the graduate of the St. Mary's University School of Law and served as a Captain in the Pennsylvania Army National Guard. Corbett began his career as an assistant district attorney in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania in 1976. Corbett then joined the U.S. Department of Justice as an assistant U.S. At...
 
modern republicans are in such an odd place when it comes to alcohol (and a few other policies). most of them favor libertarianism, but their also often very beholden to Fundamentalist Christian moralism. Makes for interesting politics
 
@waxeagle as someone who is technically a fundamental christian its even murkier
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith right there with you :)
 
I know in the south christianity could easily be associated with anti-alcohol because baptists
 
3:52 PM
yeah, I'm Presbyterian we like our vices :)
 
but Im PCA Presbyterian our pastors drink beer at wedding receptions and church outings
^which
 
(also PCA :)).
 
what
Im no more willing to wander over and look at your activity on Christianity.se
I sorta avoided it writ large because I was afraid of what sect you may have belong too and did not want to bring that into any rpg.se dealings (in my head)
 
lol, I can understand that. But yeah, grew up PCA, went to Covenant (still live close by), parents are MTW missionaries :)
 
oh totally cool
haha yeah growing up in PCA and living right outside philadelphia I sorta avoided talking about denominational stuff with people think christians as being catholics and everyone else in this big old ball and its like no, there are very distinct reasons why there are different denominations, even the fact that there are 2 big and wholly different Presbyterian denominations in america is a great example
 
3:59 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah
 
which when I went and read up on the first split then then the rejoining and then the 2nd split, man tons of history and very interesting to tie it to social trends in america post civil war til present
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, I definitely need to go back and look at that again, some very interesting stuff there to be sure. I grew up in Salisbury which is....mostly protestant I think but I was pretty insulated, specially being homeschooled most of the way
 
to get back to your response about modern republicans, yeah the party has really lost its way in many senses since the Reagan revolution. Its rather endemic of the fracturing of the political spectrum though.
 
yeah, I'm wondering if the Internet has helped people realize how different their opinions really are
 
@waxeagle I was not homeschooled but a lot of kids at my church were, so much so that my church ran a program where on wednesdays all the homeschooled kids got together and did sports and art and all sorts of activities that a normal kid would have in school but would not be the same if they did as self-study
as someone whos a conservative (socially and fiscally) I think the republican party still can have a place but needs to shuck a lot of the "old boy"-isms of the party that effectively neuter any strengths the political machine brings. I would probably self-describe as a tea party person at this point Im not quite libertarian because of my view on drugs and currency
 
4:05 PM
@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, there was a ton of stuff available through our church and surrounding community, which was good
 
another big part of the move to hot-lanta is better schools/neighborhoods for kids then philly
Id prefer to send (future) kids to public school even if I disagree with a lot of the things that get taught in public school because the social experience of public school is incredibly useful and stuff, also private school is lots of $$$$$$
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith makes sense to me. yeah, definitely expensive. We've got our first in public school right now, and he's staying there for the forseable future
And we're fortunate (by somewhat happy accident), to be zoned for one of the best elementary schools in our region
and the middle school is getting a lot better
 
nice
I went to one of the best highschools in my state whist going to a somewhat dangerous elementary and middleschool
all in the same education system
I feel the rougher aspects of my childhood to be a benefit, but I sorta just lucked out on getting into a situation with the right risk vs. danger balance
so as an adult I am 100 percent confident about how to act and interact in any and all possible city situations to maintain safety as a result of my childhood experiences
 
 
1 hour later…
5:41 PM
That feel when you're a 'liberal' atheist and you walk into this convo >.>
 
@Lord_Gareth lol, I'm not sure if that's better or worse than my (largely) liberal politics combined with my (mostly) conservative Christian beliefs :)
 
@waxeagle Depends on whether or not you have an awareness of how psychotic and sick American political views are.
Our 'liberals' are sane nations' right-wing psychos
And our conservatives tend to be their terrorists
So...
yeah
 
@lord_gareth well to start liberal as a term has been corrupted by the american political left for the last 100 years or so
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith No don't you even start. The 1950s want a word with that crap.
 
libertarian shouldn't need to exist since its in keeping with the original British liberal party, but progressives adapted liberal.
 
5:47 PM
Do you have any idea how messed up it is that the US considers facism a 'liberal' idea?
Whole rest of the world calls it right-wing
But here in 'murrica land it's somehow the exact opposite.
 
Facism and communism are both manifestations of totalitarianism. People on the left end of the spectrum tend to view gov't/gov't intervention as a blanket positive/the way things should be
but calling someone a fascist is more of a pejorative than its ever used as an accurate label
 
(this is why left and right, liberal and conservative aren't particularly useful identifiers)
 
statist is a much better term
 
@JoshuaAslanSmith There hasn't been a legitimate attempt at communism yet; what there has been have been dictators using it as a buzzword for their rise to power and then a justification for their control.
But communism =/= a command economy
And rather more importantly from my end of things, communism =/= socialism
 
the easiest way to identify someone/figure out where they stand is ask them their view on taxes and social programs, their views on drugs & social issues, their views on foreign policy, and their views on international trade and diplomacy
@lord_gareth I respectfully disagree
Though @Lord_Gareth and @waxeagle I think the bar should possibly stay open long term as a place to discuss incendiary topics
 
06:00 - 18:0018:00 - 23:00

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