Backup Room – The h Bar - 2017-05-17 (page 1 of 2)

8:42 AM

@heather Re this, the problem is not the foul-mouthedness as such (we're pretty tolerant of profanity not directed at people in the h bar compared to some other chats) but the (joking or not) insults directed at people ("bitch", "ungrateful bastard") that you can see in Trash here.

I'd also like to clarify that no one was banned for that, it was simply removed from the room. Bernardo was suspended (after three kicks for the same reason!) because he then proceeded to insult the mods who took action, in contrast to e.g. SirCumference who also complained about what happened but also managed to stay completely civil.

zhk

4:24 PM

Hello guyz

Any one interested in Maple (a computational software) then please join us here

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/107315/maple

Sir Cumference

5:03 PM

@ArtOfCode Right. Similarly, "American" is the adjective of the US.

That's just the way it is.

US American isn't something most people say

ArtOfCode

@SirCumference yeah, because you can't say "USian"

@EmilioPisanty cool it. That's not cool.

Sir Cumference

@EmilioPisanty Dude

Emilio Pisanty

otherwise, the adjective you're looking for is "US American"

Sir Cumference

You want to talk about being in an international environment yet you're spurring racial swears

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty Stop.

Sir Cumference

5:05 PM

@EmilioPisanty Dude, blame etymology.

Emilio Pisanty

otherwise, there's a perfectly acceptable alternative

Sir Cumference

It's not a personal opinion of mine, it's how my dialect evolved

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode How is any of that a racial slur?

Sir Cumference

As is the case with 300 million other people

Bernardo Meurer

Can you all please stop fighting over stupid stuff

ArtOfCode

5:06 PM

@EmilioPisanty it's not, but you're calling people arrogant.

Bernardo Meurer

Americans are US Americans

That's how the word is used

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode I'm calling positions arrogant

Sir Cumference

@BernardoMeurer Thank you

Emilio Pisanty

very different

Bernardo Meurer

I'm a continental american, and I hate when people start bitching about this: no one cares

ArtOfCode

5:07 PM

@EmilioPisanty and then saying that anyone associated with them is also arrogant.

Sir Cumference

Emilio got told by someone who actually lives in the Americas

ArtOfCode

Just don't call anything arrogant, it's much easier.

Bernardo Meurer

Call me south american, call me brazilian, american, call me fucking martian if you will

2

Emilio Pisanty

@SirCumference Mate, you realize I'm from the Americas?

ArtOfCode

@BernardoMeurer \o/ Now I can finally say I've met a Martian

Bernardo Meurer

5:08 PM

@ArtOfCode ;)

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode That's a suppression of other people's subjective experience

Sir Cumference

@EmilioPisanty No, I didn't. But that doesn't justify your anger, really.

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Yeah, I agree, why that doesn't happen in trips is the real deal

Emilio Pisanty

Expressed in neutral language

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty Yes. Now we've cleared that up, any other objections?

Sir Cumference

5:09 PM

You can't criticize languages

Bernardo Meurer

@EmilioPisanty You're just salty because you're not from the US

Don't worry, I'm salty about it too

Screw you USA

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode If you'll own up to what just happened being essentially censorship of views you personally don't like, then I'm OK

Sir Cumference

It's like the idiots I've met who think Spanish is transphobic or sexist or whatever because it assigns genders to almost every noun.

Bernardo Meurer

@EmilioPisanty Don't play with him, he has banned more people than Stalin

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty Nope. Censorship of views that are potentially offending people, yes.

Those aren't cool around here.

John Rennie

5:10 PM

@BernardoMeurer you're all bloody colonials anyway :-)

Sir Cumference

@EmilioPisanty You're complaining over nonsense. The word is used that way, whether you like it or not.

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode I find your summary dismissal of my views and experiences offensive

Sir Cumference

You can't blame modern people for something that started hundreds of years ago.

user228700

@JohnR: Third and final download started now!

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Hehehe, attack John! He's the OG imperialist

Emilio Pisanty

5:11 PM

@SirCumference you're being asked to use the non-offensive alternative when in an international context

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H wow that was quick!

Bernardo Meurer

@EmilioPisanty It's not offensive. Why would it be?

user228700

Yep! :-)

Sir Cumference

@EmilioPisanty It's not offensive! I never said anything bad about another country

You're just looking too deep into this

Bernardo Meurer

I really do not know anyone who isn't a communist that finds that offensive

Emilio Pisanty

5:12 PM

@BernardoMeurer Because I find it offensive, for the reasons stated above

ArtOfCode

@BernardoMeurer Much as I'm sure you meant that as a compliment... I don't think I have, somehow :P

Emilio Pisanty

summarily deleted for no good reason

Sir Cumference

@EmilioPisanty Too bad for you. Quit complaining over everything you find offensive, learn some tolerance.

ArtOfCode

@BernardoMeurer that is also not cool

Sir Cumference

:37465915 Is it offensive?!

0celouvskyopoulo7

5:12 PM

wtf happened

Bernardo Meurer

@SirCumference No :P

Sir Cumference

@BernardoMeurer I rest my case. :P

Bernardo Meurer

@ArtOfCode Dude, chill for the love of god

Emilio Pisanty

@SirCumference I'm not complaining. I'm explaining some behaviours that will cause other people to form certain opinions.

ArtOfCode

@BernardoMeurer I know you meant it as a joke, but it doesn't read that way

Sir Cumference

5:13 PM

@EmilioPisanty What "other people" care so much?

Bernardo Meurer

I told him to "shut up" not to "burn in hell with his ancestors"

Sir Cumference

You're the only one complaining

@BernardoMeurer XD

Bernardo Meurer

@rob QUIET YOU IMPERIALIST

user228700

What is happening...

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer there's got to be a difference in the station_n_tailInsert functions

0celouvskyopoulo7

5:14 PM

@ArtOfCode what did he say??

ArtOfCode

@0celouvskyopoulo7 words

John Rennie

WILL YOU ALL PLEASE SHUT UP - I CAN'T HEAR MYSELF DEBUG!

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie I know! It's like that game of finding the difference

0celouvskyopoulo7

@BernardoMeurer text me please

Sir Cumference

@Kaumudi.H Emilio's calling me arrogant or whatever for explaining that "American" often refers to people in the US

ArtOfCode

5:14 PM

@SirCumference might be time to move on from this now, I think

Bernardo Meurer

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Just did

Emilio was offended when someone used a word to talk about a piece of land in a way he didn't like

Because he thinks his piece of land should also be under that name, and that only calling the other land this is bad

0celouvskyopoulo7

The only people who care about the distinction between American and US American either dislike America or are not from the Americas.

ArtOfCode

Can we move on and let John debug and everyone else get back to physics?

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ArtOfCode This room never talks about physics

Bernardo Meurer

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Only communists care about this BS

rob

5:17 PM

→ 16 messages moved to Physics Meta

← 16 messages moved from The h Bar

Bernardo Meurer

@ArtOfCode You don't even know physics

ArtOfCode

@0celouvskyopoulo7 certainly does sometimes, which is why I don't understand half of it :)

Sir Cumference

This is a poor man's hbar...

Bernardo Meurer

@rob Wtf rob

ArtOfCode

@BernardoMeurer I can claim to know some. Just not as much as most people here :P

Bernardo Meurer

5:17 PM

You banished John's starred comment

move it back

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ArtOfCode Usually one can understand the physics I talk about

Emilio Pisanty

@SirCumference Just a quick note in case you think this isn't a thing

"Somos Mas Americanos" " Los Tigres Del Norte" By: Alfredo urrutia Aka Chicken

►

rob

@BernardoMeurer Them's the breaks. Quit making it hard for me to moderate chat.

Emilio Pisanty

it's a widely shared opinion

John Rennie

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHH. WHICH BIT OF STFU WAS NOT CLEAR?

Emilio Pisanty

5:18 PM

just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Bernardo Meurer

@EmilioPisanty This must be a Mexican thing

Feeds

rob has frozen this room.

rob

"Please just stop" totally sums up my attitude towards this conversation.

Bernardo Meurer

@rob Hm? I only make your job easier

rob

I'm going to clean things up for a minute, then I'll un-freeze the room.

Sorry to do this --- you guys move too fast for me.

John Rennie

5:21 PM

@BernardoMeurer OK so when you parse the stations the (rather misleadingly named) variable head keeps getting set to the last node in the list. So it's really the tail. Yes?

rob

→ 91 messages moved to Physics Meta

← 91 messages moved from The h Bar

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Yes, I forgot to rename that :P

Feeds

rob has unfrozen this room.

0celouvskyopoulo7

Lol

Bernardo Meurer

Lol

Anyway

AccidentalFourierTransform

5:22 PM

the hell is going on here

Bernardo Meurer

Back to it

John Rennie

Hmm, that Batman slapping Robin cartoon springs to mind :-)

rob

@AccidentalFourierTransform Don't worry about it. Like, seriously. Just move on.

Bernardo Meurer

Someone got offended that Sir.C used "American" to refer to the US

@JohnRennie Hehehe

AccidentalFourierTransform

oh I want to argue

Emilio Pisanty

5:23 PM

@ArtOfCode I'm confused as to why that message wasn't summarily deleted, as in the spirit of the previous moderation. Kindly explain.

ArtOfCode

← 15 messages moved from The h Bar

Jaime Gallego

Argument Clinic - Monty Python's The Flying Circus

►

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Okay, I got kicked from the h-bar

@rob Wtf did I get kicked for?

John Rennie

I saw :-)

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty which message

rob

5:25 PM

@BernardoMeurer For continuing to engage after I asked you to stop.

Bernardo Meurer

@rob Hm? He asked what happened I said what happened.

It wasn't even inflamatory

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode The one you were responding to.

Bernardo Meurer

it was exactly what happened

Emilio Pisanty

So.. it's OK to badmouth people who can't respond?

I mean, just for future reference.

ArtOfCode

It was hardly badmouthing when it was a statement of the facts.

Bernardo Meurer

5:26 PM

@JohnRennie I think I'm just going to try using headinsert

rob

@BernardoMeurer The conversation needed to be over. I'm not sure how that could have been any clearer. We can continue in here, if you like.

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode Yeah, well, several plain statements of facts got deleted earlier, so I'm confused

ArtOfCode

Look, y'all: if someone says they find something offensive, assume good faith and shut the hell up about it.

Bernardo Meurer

@rob I wasn't even engaging in discussing the topic, I was just saying what happened when someone asked

ArtOfCode

If you find something offensive and people aren't shutting up about it, that does not give you an excuse to start calling names.

Bernardo Meurer

5:27 PM

You just got trigger happy to make an example out of me

Great moderation

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode Funny, 'cause this whole conversation was me saying I find some things offensive and you deleting all of those posts

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer: I must admit I can't see what's going on here. The problem is I can't get the trip import code to run without faulting so I can use the debugger to see what's going on.

Sir Cumference

...this is still going on?

Just drop it.

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty No, I deleted posts where you called people names.

terdon

@EmilioPisanty while you have a very valid complaint in Spanish, I'm afraid that in English, the word for norteamericano is american. "US American" is simply not used in English. Is it arrogant? Perhaps, but that's how the language is. I would never use americano that way if I were speaking Spanish, but English is a different language.

ArtOfCode

5:28 PM

@SirCumference, if someone says they find something offensive, don't dismiss their concern out of hand.

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer: there is sometign a bit weird going on because if I run the app from the command line it faults but if I run from the debugger it doesn't fault. I think you've got some memory mangling going on somewhere.

Bernardo Meurer

@terdon For what it's worth Portuguese is like English in this matter "Americano" is US

Sir Cumference

@ArtOfCode This happened 30 mins ago

Move on

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Hmmm

Sir Cumference

We're adults

terdon

5:29 PM

@BernardoMeurer Even in Brazil?

ArtOfCode

@SirCumference Amusing that y'all won't move on when I tell you to, but now you want me to move on when I'm chastising you.

Bernardo Meurer

@terdon I am Brazilian, so yeah

ArtOfCode

Play nice, everyone.

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon As long as you're owning up to what, in your words, is an arrogant aspect of the language, then that's in the game.

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer: if you don't have access to a debugger you'll have to start sprinkling printfs through the code to see what it's doing.

Sir Cumference

5:29 PM

@ArtOfCode Yeah, 10 mins ago

Emilio Pisanty

that's pretty much all I was saying

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie I do, I'm just not skilled with it :P

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon wait, what happened to your name?

terdon

@EmilioPisanty As the great, late Victor Borge said It's your language, I'm just using it :P

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie I'll change both to head inserts

and just assume the list is in inverted order :P

Don't matter

terdon

5:30 PM

@EmilioPisanty ?

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer I don't think that's a great idea. You're just skating over the problem and it's likely to come back and bite you later.

rob

@BernardoMeurer The trail of breadcrumbs is still in hbar for anyone to follow. Explaining it in the chat, after I just removed everything, is just a way to re-start the conversation.

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon why are you terdon all of a sudden?

Bernardo Meurer

@JohnRennie Pretty much what I do with life tbh

terdon

@EmilioPisanty I've never been anyone else on SE.

Bernardo Meurer

5:31 PM

@rob Whatever, I'm not going to engage you in your powertrip bullshit

terdon

Que crees, que solo hay un tio azul por aquí? :P

ArtOfCode

Also, @EmilioPisanty, if I sounded like I was dismissing your concern, I apologise for that. You have a valid concern, I'm just concerned about the way you were expressing it.

rob

@BernardoMeurer Okay, cool, thanks.

John Rennie

@BernardoMeurer: I've got to go. If you're still struggling I'll try and patch up this code so I can track the trip processing in the debugger.

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon hmmm. I honest-to-God confused you with someone else for a second there.

@ArtOfCode Kinda late for an apology.

Bernardo Meurer

5:32 PM

@JohnRennie Alright, I'm gonna give it some work :)

Thanks for the help!

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode I understand summary deletions of stuff that can be considered a racial slur

terdon

@EmilioPisanty Better late than never. There was a lot going on for a while there. Art's just human.

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer Please stop using terms like "bullshit" when talking about actions of other users, no matter how justified you think they are. Last warning since you seem to have not gotten the message yesterday.

Emilio Pisanty

(I would contest the claim that gringo is a racial slur in the context it was originally used, but that's beside the point.)

Ad hominems are obviously not OK

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind Yesterday you banned me because I was spiting you

ArtOfCode

5:33 PM

@EmilioPisanty The other stuff I deleted, I deleted because you were calling people arrogant. That's what I'm concerned about here, not whether you find that use of American to be offensive or not.

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer No, I kicked you because you were insulting the mods in general and DavidZ in particular.

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode The position I oultined is very real and very widespread, and I phrased in the necessary words. There's no substitute for that word.

I never called anyone that

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind The first time, yeah, and then you kicked me because I said it was "worth it"

Emilio Pisanty

I used the adjective to describe a position

Bernardo Meurer

What's the point of that?

Emilio Pisanty

5:34 PM

Remember?

ArtOfCode

Sometimes, it's best to just say "I find that term offensive; could you refrain from using it in that manner", instead of having to explain in detail - precisely because it leads to things like this.

Bernardo Meurer

It's my opinion whether it was worth it or not

Emilio Pisanty

we talk about content, not people

Bernardo Meurer

It being worth it doesn't insult him or anyone

ArtOfCode

You don't have to say you think it's arrogant if you just ask people not to use it.

ACuriousMind

5:34 PM

@BernardoMeurer You saying "it's still true" effectively repeats the insult. No matter whether that's your opinion, keep that to yourself.

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode I did

Bernardo Meurer

Why do I get another kickmute for expressing a value judgement on a punishment

Emilio Pisanty

and they continued to dismiss the concern

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty but then you went on.

Emilio Pisanty

i.e. to continue and amplify the behaviour I was pointing out from before

... and yet that was OK by the moderation

terdon

5:35 PM

@EmilioPisanty They did. And that was wrong and led to the room being frozen.

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind Meh, don't regret it

terdon

On the other hand, it is also true that you are carrying a valid offense from one language into another where it just isn't offensive since it is the only word for it.

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty Yeah, and I should've picked up on that earlier too - sorry. But as terdon said, I'm human. If people keep ignoring you, flag it for mods to deal with - I can always call in another mod or two to help out - and disengage - it's much easier than explaining yourself and leading to debates about whether you called someone a name or not.

Bernardo Meurer

You guys are all way over your heads recently

@ArtOfCode Specially you mr.

terdon

@BernardoMeurer Believe me, this is less fun for us than it is for you.

ArtOfCode

5:36 PM

@BernardoMeurer hm?

Bernardo Meurer

@terdon Mods hate fun

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode No, I was having a perfectly civilized conversation, there was mostly no call for moderation. (except possibly the very first deletion.)

Bernardo Meurer

@ArtOfCode Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty If people keep ignoring you, disengage.

@BernardoMeurer I don't.

Bernardo Meurer

Deleting a simple "shut up" like I was insulting someone's matriarch

Emilio Pisanty

5:37 PM

I could use an apology along the lines of "I'm sorry I summarily deleted your complaints about how your culture's views are summarily dismissed from our culture"

ArtOfCode

it was more what came after it, @BernardoMeurer

Bernardo Meurer

@ArtOfCode That he wasn't from the rest of America so he couldn't say what we find or not offensive??

What's wrong with that

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode It wasn't "ignoring", it was "disagreeing", which is what reasonable discussion was made for

Bernardo Meurer

I can't say what you find offensive

ArtOfCode

Dismissing people's views out of hand ain't Nice. That's what that message was, @BernardoMeurer. And that's what was happening with Emilio's views, too.

terdon

5:41 PM

@BernardoMeurer Neither can we. Which is why mods have been far stricter recently in order to try and find a new consensus. We're not there yet, so yes, mistakes will be made but the general idea at the moment is that we'd rather overmoderate than undermoderate.

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ArtOfCode I hear Bernardo got suspended

ArtOfCode

@0celouvskyopoulo7 take it to meta

0celouvskyopoulo7

what happened?

AccidentalFourierTransform

@0celouvskyopoulo7 take it to main.

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ArtOfCode What happened?

ArtOfCode

5:42 PM

50 secs ago, by ArtOfCode

@0celouvskyopoulo7 take it to meta

ACuriousMind

@AccidentalFourierTransform You're not helping.

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon Yeah, that's in the game. But you also need to acknowledge overmoderation when it happens.

AccidentalFourierTransform

:-/

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ArtOfCode Someone there told me to take it ehre!

rob

← 5 messages moved from The h Bar

terdon

5:44 PM

@EmilioPisanty well, this wasn't particularly extreme. Some messages were deleted and then the room was frozen for a couple of minutes. Not really the end of the world.

rob

@AccidentalFourierTransform Not funny.

Emilio Pisanty

@terdon No. But I still contend that a factual expression of the type "X group of people finds Y position arrogant" does not call for summary deletion.

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty that's just about okay, but "I find you arrogant" is not okay, and that's more like what your messages were saying

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode That's a complete mischaracterization.

That is a direct description of a deleted message.

Quickly followed by "If you're OK with taking that position while knowing that, then I've said my piece".

terdon

Look, the deletion of a chat message is really not a big deal. It isn't an answer, it's just idle conversation.

ArtOfCode

5:49 PM

Not one that I can see. Look, debating this clearly ain't helping. Your viewpoint ain't gonna change, and neither is mine.

terdon

Just a quick way (which obviously failed here) to nip something in the bud before it escalates.

Emilio Pisanty

Yeah, well. Here I was trying to put in some nuance into a conversation, and it turned out that the moderation nippers nipped the nuance instead of the conversation.

AccidentalFourierTransform

americans tend to do that

ArtOfCode

don't

terdon

You're really not helping.

Emilio Pisanty

5:52 PM

in The h Bar, 8 mins ago, by ArtOfCode

guess which one of us is blue

guess which one of us is pulling rank

oh well

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Can we remain that the latter deletions were perhaps a bit overzealous, but that you shouldn't have started the conversation about arrogance with "arrogant gringo"?

David Z

Any chance we can all put this discussion on hold for a few hours?

It seems like the kind of thing where a little time away from the conversation might help

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind Yeah, well, inappropriate message was deleted, it gets indicated to me in a friendly way, fair enough, I rephrase in a way that does not include that kind of descriptor.

still no dice

ArtOfCode

@EmilioPisanty on a different issue.

Emilio Pisanty

@ArtOfCode here as well

ArtOfCode

5:54 PM

well blow me down I guess it's difficult to judge intent in a real-time chat when people are yelling at each other

who knew

Emilio Pisanty

Sorry, mate, I'm all for moderation, and I think the policy is sensible and it's overwhelmingly implemented correctly

But it's OK to admit that you dropped the ball up there.

That's pretty much all I'm asking for here.

17 mins ago, by Emilio Pisanty

I could use an apology along the lines of "I'm sorry I summarily deleted your complaints about how your culture's views are summarily dismissed from our culture"

but I can see that's not gonna happen

so

oh well

the real world calls

ArtOfCode

I remain unconvinced that your messages were appropriate.

Other moderators disagree with me; still other moderators agree with me.

David Z

OK nobody's convinced for now; let's just leave it at that point.

Please.

(thanks!)

Bernardo Meurer

6:30 PM

@ACuriousMind Why the fuck did I get suspended?!

I had already been kickmuted from the h-bar

And I was having a normal talk with @ArtOfCode here

ArtOfCode

because your message got flagged

ACuriousMind

(For the sake of specificity, the one effectively calling ArtOfCode Stalin)

Bernardo Meurer

¬¬

I thought it was the one where I told him to go collect coconuts

ArtOfCode

nah I've already got a coconut collection thanks

don't need any more

Bernardo Meurer

And did I say you were stalin? I remember saying you had banned more people than stalin

and then when you denied I said that's what stalin would do

ArtOfCode

6:41 PM

yeah, that one

maybe don't repeat it?

heather

7:07 PM

@zhk committed =)

also, geesh (re: above conversation)

@ArtOfCode, consider that maybe Emilio was right and you did overmoderate

I've noticed mods have been especially deletion/kick happy recently (though that may just be confirmation bias).

David Z

We go back and forth (as is human nature) and currently I agree that there has recently been an increase in the level of mod action used in chat.

ArtOfCode

@heather This situation is over, let's not start it up again.

heather

it's not about the situation, just about the general response mods have been having to situations recently

David Z

We can certainly discuss moderation in general, but I do think @ArtOfCode is right that it's best to leave anything that happened today out of it.

heather

fair enough.

as for the moderation - i might suggest toning it down - chat is supposed to be informal. no need to be as strict as you might be on the main site. further, the fact that there's been significant backlash from members should tell you that you are taking it too far.

ArtOfCode

7:12 PM

in Game Development, 5 hours ago, by ArtOfCode

Okay. Chat has gone several years with much more lax moderation. Because of a few recent incidents, among other things, there's now a drive to enforce the rules more, and to do so more consistently. That means things that might have been ignored because they were borderline previously are now not going to get ignored.

heather

i might point out that hbar is busy enough with a diverse enough following that you can't just try to cut everything that will be offensive to everybody. that's not how it works.

also, you haven't just knocked it up a single notch - it's gone way up (level of moderation)

and, if i may: what "incidents"?

ArtOfCode

Mos is the major one - have a look at SciFi meta for context on that

heather

i heard something about that - isn't mos eisley, um.. gone now?

ACuriousMind

@heather Oh, we're by far not as strict as we are on the main site, and what most of the backlash tells me is that we should've been a bit more proactive much earlier before the behaviours inconsistent with Be Nice become habits that the users understandably feel we're now disrupting

David Z

@heather I see what you're saying, but I would counter that we are stepping up the level of moderation because we believe it to be necessary - in other words, because the messages that get posted in chat and the general chatroom culture that develops without such strict moderation has been unacceptable.

heather

7:15 PM

one moment - looking at scifi meta

scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10913/… - um...so someone posted something (?) and it was a continuance of earlier patterns of disruption so the whole thing was deleted?

"but in the context of what, exactly, was said, this apology downright abhors me, and I find myself speechless" - why was that commented?

David Z

(something maybe to read after this scifi discussion) Also, regarding the backlash, ACM has a point, but so do you. Backlash from members can be an indicator that we are taking it too far, but it's not always so. There will always be backlash from people who are being pushed to modify their behavior by moderation actions, whether they're justified or not. We constantly discuss whether the mod actions are going too far, taking users' responses into consideration.

ACuriousMind

@heather ...I don't think looking at the meta will give you an accurate impression of what was wrong with Mos or why the reaction has been so harsh if you haven't been in that room or followed the whole shebang

heather

i.stack.imgur.com/lJXN7.jpg - well shog's clearly upset about it

ACuriousMind

And let's say that while the h bar has some issues, we're pretty far from that level in my impression, so it's not very useful to draw analogies

David Z

I haven't followed that whole situation too closely, and I'm not sure if anyone else here has either, so I'm not sure we can fill in the details of what happened.

I've been aware of a few really nasty messages that were posted (probably worse than anything seen in the h bar, like ACM said), but the deletion of the SFF chat room was really about an ongoing issue with room culture, not just a few isolated messages.

heather

7:23 PM

i read through a bunch of meta posts about it, but i'm mildly confused, because multiple comments seem to agree that Shog overreacted; whether or not this is the case is hard to discern because it's all deleted and vague on what exactly happened.

anyway, i really don't think mos eisley is comparable to the hbar, as ACM said.

so can we proceed separate of that incident?

David Z

Sure, as far as I'm concerned

heather

7:35 PM

okay, so what makes you think that the way incidents being handled now is better than before; i.e., why would you step up the level of moderation?

i really don't think the hbar is as bad as you seem to be making it out to be.

David Z

Well, people are posting things that are inappropriate for the chat, and not realizing (or perhaps willfully ignoring, though I'm wary of assuming so) that they're inappropriate. Insults, egregious name-calling, overly provocative statements, etc. First of all, clearly something needs to change.

The Dark Side

And let me guess, mod-intervention invites more wrath, is it?

(Coming back after a few days, trying to figure out what this yell-chat is about and what brought it here)

David Z

Now, the reason that leads to an increased level of moderation (and I'm talking about things like kick-mutes and suspensions, which is what I'm guessing you want to talk about) is that just asking people to participate appropriately doesn't seem to be effective.

Maybe they don't know how to participate appropriately, maybe they just don't want to abide by the standards of appropriate chat behavior, maybe something else; regardless, less drastic methods than kicking people out of the room don't seem to be effecting the long-term change that needs to happen.

heather

@DavidZ that's the thing - i haven't even seen these "inappropriate" posts

David Z

Many of them get deleted quickly

heather

7:48 PM

no, no, i mean even taking into account the "deleted" blanks, or i've seen them said before deletion, or whatever, and they haven't seemed inappropriate in any way.

so i think your beginning assumption is flawed.

i can say definitively that it is really, really, really hard to tell what it's okay or not okay to talk about in here. your one post that tried to clarify policy (the politics policy) was, ehm, ill-fated. other than that, we have no clear guidelines. yes, the be nice policy, but really, some of the stuff that's been deleted falls well within that.

ACuriousMind

@heather We're not saying the hbar is a terrible place - most conversations are fine, and mod intervention is (from my viewpoint) fairly rare. But every time we point out something wasn't appropriate, we get this same discussion all over again as if we were deleting half of the things people say, I'm fairly puzzled by that

heather

i think the discussion keeps happening (at least in my viewpoint) because the non-mods don't really get any answers other than a vague, "because we said so" kind of answer.

David Z

@heather This indicates that your judgement about what is appropriate and what isn't differs from that of the moderators and of SE.

ACuriousMind

I feel it's almost always "insulting other users, even in jest, isn't fine" and I don't know what's so vague about that

The Dark Side

Isn't all of this a pattern? Has the problem really worsened now more than ever, as indicated by @DavidZ's comment?

I mean hasn't this happened countless no. of times earlier also?

David Z

7:55 PM

@TheDarkSide Well I wouldn't say "more than ever". Things have been bad in our chat before, IMO worse than in recent times.

heather

@DavidZ but that's exactly the problem. i'd like to think that i can treat things fairly common-sensically (perhaps that isn't the case, but for the sake of discussion let's assume it is) - if people with common sense can't use a general, let's be nice type policy without differing in viewpoint from SE, that means SE needs a better guideline for what they don't want.

@DavidZ which i would argue coincides with the increase in moderation.

@ACuriousMind well, part of the problem is it is semi-inconsistent IMO

The Dark Side

^

That

or so it appears

especially to those who are on the wrong side of mod actions.

David Z

@heather did you miss a word after "general"?

SevenSidedDie

@heather Keep in mind that what gets removed is also a way of communicating guidelines. Pushing back against that, then objecting that no information is given, is part of the problem.

2

heather

@DavidZ no - "a general "be nice" type of policy" was what I was trying to convey

David Z

7:57 PM

Oh, I see what you mean.

heather

@SevenSidedDie sure, but it's a vague way of doing so, especially when it appears to be done inconsistently.

Transcript for

Backup Room – The h Bar