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3:55 PM
@Laurel Yeah, tag-naming is a bit of an art. But do you remember the day you found that there was a whole page of tag info behind some of the tags? :)
@Mari-LouA Until your comment on my Meta.ELU post, I was on my way to join them. I'm still not sure it was a good idea to put my hand up. But I am glad to see the direction those who have spoken in this election are headed. If there's something EL&U needs more of, it's people like you - people who are personally interested in the topic of the site, who care about those who have left, and who, despite all the water under the bridge, still take time to connect with those who haven't yet left.
 
4:22 PM
@JesseSteele If you think the question is a good fit for the site, and if the other mods aren't in opposition, just go ahead and reopen the question. For questions that need some work, you can engage the OP and try to bring it up to scratch first.
But I think you're talking about the harder problem: tackling those who chase away valuable members of the community. I think there's a process of escalation centered around the don't-be-rude rule now. I'd encourage you to post your thoughts about this on the appropriate site's meta, and if the powers that be and the community both show significant support, go ahead and implement it.
This way, you've signaled your intentions and reality-checked your approach.
I wouldn't recommend going on a crusade against the 'troublemakers'. Sometimes they're kind of annoying and loud in one area, yet helpful and kind in another. You'll probably miss them when they're gone. But having the policy out in the open can exert a moderating influence of its own.
 
@JesseSteele "my ability to grow does not license fuddy-duddies to troll" I wouldn't accuse these users of trolling. Instead I would say their approach is strict and exigent because in the end they care about quality. It's all about striking a balance between producing quality posts and curating (shepherding?) new users over a period of time. Not scaring them off with a list of rules.
 
@Mari-LouA I'm actually one of those users. I want ELU to cater to the group it was originally intended to cater to: "linguists, etymologists, and (serious) English language enthusiasts". Questions that can be answered by any native speaker are not really interesting to me.
 
To be absolutely clear, I like the moderators we have on EL&U. I've rarely had a cross exchange with any. And when I have been critical, perhaps four or five times in nearly 9 years, they never overreacted but more importantly they listened. Sometimes my arguments were successful and sometimes they weren't but at least I have never been afraid to voice my opinion. My main gripe are with the mods on Meta.
 
I originally came to ELU thinking "ooh, I'm a literate native speaker and language geek, I bet I'll be answering all the time and teach these poor ignorant saps a thing or two". I stayed because the reality was very different and much more attractive to me: I was very, very ignorant compared to the heavyweights here and ELU was a place for me to learn and not a place for me to teach. Which I loved!
2
 
NVZ
4:40 PM
What terdon said.
 
@terdon pretty much reflects my experience too until the layout was hacked and EL&U lost a lot of its charm. That and the LQQs; however, not every question has to be answered by a verified linguist though.
 
NVZ
Except I'm not a native speaker
With every change in ELU design I've felt it more difficult to understand and navigate but then after a while I get used to it and now I can't imagine going back to the old design. Charm is still lost.
 
@terdon some of the very best answers on EL&U were to questions that consisted of a single sentence, with no research and with no "effort".
 
@NVZ Which usually simply means you have a better grasp of the language :)
I suspect you, like Cerberus who is also not a native speaker, speak better English than the vast majority of native speakers. Most certainly including myself.
 
@Mari-LouA Those are the diamonds in the rough.
@NVZ Y'know, it's a good thing they at least kept the colour scheme. :)
 
NVZ
4:47 PM
Better grasp, I guess, mostly due to my Middle East upbringing. I've also learned some south Indian languages other than mine (Malayalam) and Hindi, and Arabic a decent bit.
Wait, should I have said Middle Eastern* upbringing?
 
I find it is very common for expert non-native speakers of a language to speak it better than the average native. It's because you have had to learn it in methodical ways while us natives are born to it and don't tend to develop the kind of deep understanding of the grammar and linguistic structures involved.
@NVZ heh, yes :)
 
NVZ
@terdon True, but in my case I didn't pay much attention to class. I got fluent mostly by listening. I listen to English muffin, watch Hollywood movies, and I'm surrounded by European and Australian expats in my workplace etc. Plus I've been lurking here on ELU way back before I ever created an account.
English music*
 
@NVZ I wondered about those English muffins. :D
 
@NVZ OK, but because you had to learn it and weren't born to it, you will probably have a better grasp of some of the rules (inasmuch as there are such things in English). Native speakers often can't explain why something is the way it is, they just know it.
For instance:
16
Q: How can I explain to a non-native why the plural of a noun isn't used adjectivally?

terdonHow can I explain to a non-native speaker that while this is correct: The felling of trees. And this is also correct: tree felling This is not: *trees felling To a non-native it seems very reasonable that since many trees are being felled and given that the felling of trees use...

Which ended up being quite interesting, actually.
 
NVZ
I always feared I'll make mistakes when emailing my colleagues and hence my habit of scanning through ELU before hitting that send button on outlook
 
4:57 PM
@NVZ Just out of curiosity - what is your area of expertise / training?
 
NVZ
Civil engineering masters degree but I'm moving more into contracts and commercial management. Contractual letters are a pain and I don't want to make mistakes on that
 
Legalese isn't English :P
 
NVZ
Not the usual legalese in construction contracts but, yeah it isn't the usual English either
@terdon that's the fun part. I had to learn yes but I can't even identify what's what in terms of grammar. I just sense some words fit nicely in a sentence for whatever reason.
 
I grew up as a native speaker of English in a non-English speaking country (I was born and raised in Greece, but my father's American so I grew up bilingual). As a result, I had to sit through ESL classes at school which was actually surprisingly useful. Although I didn't learn any better English than I had going in, I did get a better understanding of the grammar and rules since I attended the same lessons as my non-native-speaker peers.
 
NVZ
I've probably never answered any serious question on ELU because of this history of mine. My rep, all of it, is thanks to SWRs and HNQ luck.
 
5:02 PM
@NVZ That's interesting. A lot the regulars have a programming background - makes sense with the SE roots, I guess. It's good to see a broader diversity of disciplines.
 
@NVZ meh, so's mine. I have one actually decent answer here, the rest of my rep is from asking or posting simple answers to simple questions.
 
NVZ
And some users think I've stopped participating. I have actually only stopped my pursuit of SWRs. I still participate in terms of stealing the wisdom of ELU for my personal gains. 😆
@Lawrence Thanks. And I do have an IT background in the sense that I'm always up to date on the latest tech and gadgets. I've even made my own VB program back in high school. I just didn't pursue a degree in IT per se.
 
5:18 PM
@NVZ That's resourceful of you. Being able to do some programming helps a lot in today's world.
 
5:36 PM
On a different topic - I think that mods should get a separate user profile (a legitimate sock puppet, if you will) for mod work so that they can participate in the regular processes of voting for questions and answers etc without mod-hammering everything.
It might be a bit troublesome to keep logging in and out to switch profiles, though.
 
NVZ
Interesting, I wonder if there's been any discussions previously on this
 
@Lawrence no, no, no, no! This is a common desire by new mods, but it defeats the entire purpose: the whole point of mods is that they are trusted to make such decisions unilaterally. So if they're sure, they should go ahead and close and if they aren't, they should stay away and let the community do it. Mod votes are just like everyone else's, it's only the close votes that are binding.
 
NVZ
@terdon Yes that's correct
 
That said, there is no rule against having socks as long as you don't use the sock to do anything you wouldn't be able to do with a single account (such as voting on your own posts, commenting on your posts to make it look like you're another person etc). Many users have socks. I have a few myself.
 
NVZ
I have socks too.
They're all black so mixing and matching is no issue.
 
5:43 PM
I know you're joking and everything, but that statement gave me an inordinate amount of pleasure: I do exactly the same thing and it drives my girlfriend up the wall!
 
@terdon Oh, I see.
 
It's likely you will see very soon, yes :P
@ElectionBot can I summon you?
guess not
 
@terdon Yikes. I was hoping the others would get voted in. :)
There's still time.
 
Oh yes, and I have no idea how the voting is going anyway. I just meant that you're a candidate!
 
@NVZ I tried something like that, then found that after awhile, sock pairs started acquiring their own subtly different tint and length. Sock matching has since made a comeback. On the other hand, I usually wear long pants, so mismatched socks aren't a big issue.
@terdon Oh, phew.
 
NVZ
5:55 PM
I was laughing way too hard after my last text and my wife insisted I explain what's going on. I explained and ruined the joke. I'll never speak of it again. 😂
 
@Lawrence I don't like crusades either. Shine the light, don't curse the darkness.
 
NVZ
@terdon What's the election bot?
 
@Mari-LouA A lot I agree with. I'd just say that if they are concerned about quality that they should consider the negative impact they had on the site. But, that's more of a technicality than a disagreement. The big point is that quality is indeed their motive. So, maybe seeing things that way is best.
And yeah, we don't want to scare people away with rules. The few pointers in the tour should be very helpful. We're looking at re-vamping our own tour on Hermeneutics because it is out of date. But, good rules shouldn't frighten.
@NVZ But, what about wear? Don't some fade more. Don't you have to match the ones that have equal fading?
 
NVZ
Well, fade is the new black, so
 
You can see it in action in the AU election room: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/134774/…
 
NVZ
6:06 PM
In the long run, we are all dead. So I wear my faded ones with stride.
Took me a second to confirm what it means to take sth in stride.
Can't we invite Mr Bot over here?
 
in ElectionBot Development on Stack Overflow Chat, 17 mins ago, by terdon
@SamuelLiew could we get the bot in the ELU election room as well, please?
 
It seems that SE doesn't like live election results.
-28
Q: Live election results

Roshana Pitigala2019 Moderator Election ends tomorrow, I'm eagerly waiting to know who would be our next moderators â™¦. Then the idea of real-time election results popped into my mind. Clearly, people have thought about this earlier and some of them even had tried to build several tools for this, 2015 Election...

 
I would agree with that distaste. For the same reason that most (all?) states don't give running exit polls of government elections: you don't want to affect the voting.
The election bot can tell us how many people have voted though, just not who they've voted for.
in 2022 Ask Ubuntu Moderator Election Chat, 1 hour ago, by ElectionBot
Based on the number of Constituent badges awarded, 814 (2.21% of 36,826 eligible) users have voted thus far.
 
@terdon Now that would be interesting. It would give us a sense of how much community engagement we have.
Let's give it another go.
@ElectionBot how many users voted?
 
I think Mr Bot invited himself.
 
6:18 PM
Do mods have to turn on the functionality?
@JesseSteele If he did, he's ignoring us.
 
Oh, if you mean social functionality, I still haven't got that functionality turned on yet. Good night y'all.
 
:)
G'night.
 
@Lawrence no, this isn't an SE thing, it's a user thing. Some folks have taken the time to build it and they can deploy it into a room. Nothing to do with the actual SE system so no mod can help (well, unless the mod happens to be one of the bot's devs).
But we should be getting it soon :)
in 2022 Ask Ubuntu Moderator Election Chat, 8 mins ago, by terdon
@OlegValteriswithUkraine can you add the bot to other rooms? If so, could you please add it to the ELU election room? https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/134773/2022-english-language-usage-stack-exchange-moderator-election-chat
in 2022 Ask Ubuntu Moderator Election Chat, 4 mins ago, by Oleg Valter is with Ukraine
@terdon yup, just let me spawn an instance using my Heroku so as not to eat up the dynos from the Ask Ubuntu one
 
6:37 PM
A quick message from my sponsors: The election is underway, and 455 (2.74% of 16,629 eligible) users have already voted! I can answer common questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
NVZ
@ElectionBot
@ElectionBot help
 
Examples of election FAQs I can help with:
- What is an election
- How to nominate myself
- How to vote
- Who should I vote for
- How is the candidate score calculated
- What is my candidate score
- What are the moderation/participation/editing badges
- What is the election status
- When is the next phase
- How many users are eligible to vote?
- Who are the candidates
- Who are the current mods
- What are the responsibilities of a moderator
- What is Single Transferable Vote (STV)
 
NVZ
What is my candidate score
 
@NVZ Wow! You have a maximum candidate score of 40! I can see you're already a candidate - good luck!
 
NVZ
Ok I guess you were stalking us this whole time, Mr Bot
 
 
3 hours later…
9:55 PM
I feel like I missed a lot here lol
 

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