Discussion between GratefulDisciple and Spirit Realm Investigator

2:30 AM

@GratefulDisciple - sounds like further confirmation that continuationism is more likely than not to be true. At least the story seems consistent with my worldview. Regarding Charismatic claimants, one that inspires confidence to me is this one.

GratefulDisciple

4:42 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator sounds like further confirmation. Not at all, if you read section 3 of the introduction (his teaching). No where did he say that we should pursue those gifts, let alone that God promise them to be available to those who ask. Instead those miracles seem to be preserved to simply elevate his authority as someone who knows spiritual realities related to fighting demon temptations, similar to many saints.

If there is a lesson to be obtained from one of the miracle (of mare turned back into a woman) is that weekly participation in communion: "And he gave her this advice: ‘Never miss going to church. Never be away from communion. This happened to you because for five weeks you had not gone to the mysteries.’"

My point in bringing St. Macarius of Egypt is yet another illustration how a community can "frame" a story (assuming we believe them to be real, not legend) in different ways according to their agenda, and interpret & use the miracles according to that frame. So to a critical thinker like me, I have to take Charisma House publisher of your book as a prime consideration.

Personally, his writings appeal to me because doctrinally it is consistent with broad-based mainstream Christianity which places #1 importance to fight temptation and sin and to rely on God's grace given through the Holy Spirit indwelling within us. Even Protestant John Wesley highly regarded his writings too!

Spirit Realm Investigator

5:22 PM

@GratefulDisciple - he didn't say that the gifts are not useful for the body of Christ either. In fact, he described them as gifts from the bridegroom (Jesus) to the bride (the Church), but he also said that we shouldn't get stuck and be contented merely with the gifts. Rather, we should pursue the giver of the gifts.

Love / charity must be the ultimate goal. In other words, the gifts exist and are available to the bride, but intimate relationship in love with the giver of the gifts (the bridegroom) is what matters most.

This aligns perfectly with 1 Corinthians 12, 13 & 14

Let me quote from here: ecatholic2000.com/macarius/….

There are other places, however, where Macarius defines the highest point as the attainment of “charity” or “love.” By it he means an absolute and entire love of God for God’s own sake. It is characteristic of him to regard it as a thing not of degrees or of progressive attainment, but marking a positive and well-ascertained position. Other gifts “serve only as inducements” to attain it. “Those who are contented with them are but children, though in the light.

Many of the brethren have come to such measures, and had gifts of healing and revelation and prophecy, and because they did not reach the perfect charity, wherein lies the bond of perfectness, war came upon them … and they fell. But if any one reaches the perfect love, that man is from thenceforth fast bound, and is the captive of grace” (XXVI. 16; cp. XXVII. 14).

As a bride is not satisfied with her bridegroom’s gifts, but craves for the bridegroom himself, “so the soul … receives as an earnest from the Spirit gifts of healings, it may be, or of knowledge, or of revelation, but it is not satisfied with these, until it attains the complete union, namely charity, which can never change nor fail, and which sets those who have longed for it free from passion and from agitation” (XLV. 7).

I fully agree with the above quote. The gifts are useful, but profound love for the giver of the gifts is what really matters ultimately.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

GratefulDisciple

5:59 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator Exactly.

@SpiritRealmInvestigator I never said it's mutually exclusive. Even cessationists welcome healing and miracles when given, which they interpret as one-time / occassional, BUT not as charism as when saying "so-and-so has been given the gift of healing others" which shows that God is blessing his ministry, etc.

GratefulDisciple

6:17 PM

So while St. Macarius when seeing himself and some brethren received healing/prophecy/revelation (which BTW didn't make him into charismatics / Pentecostal who teach that God want us to pursue them for community benefit), 1) notice the lack of teaching that we should ask God for them, 2) notice on the contrary how strongly he cautioned the brethren against being complacent in the 2 homilies cited:

In Homily XXVI, the context is Question 14 "Is Satan ever quiet, and a man set free from warfare, or has he war as long as he lives?" and paragraph 16 citing warning from St. Paul 1 Cor 13:2-3.

Spirit Realm Investigator

@GratefulDisciple - do you know if St. Marcarius ever explained how he received his spiritual gifts? Has this part of his testimony been documented?

GratefulDisciple

In Homily XLV, the context is paragraph 7 about gifts as "an earnest" (deposit) for personal faith. Commentators on St. Macarius said how noticeable the lack of the social aspects of his teaching, concentrating instead on individual spiritual warfare with the devil against temptation.

@SpiritRealmInvestigator I just started reading about him. So far I haven't come across any explanation on how he receive those abilities. The subtext seems to be that when you become a monk in the desert, after selling all your possessions to focus on simply being with the Lord, those abilities could happen, but not promised. So the proper context for St. Macarius's talk about the gifts is a warning to fellow monks.

Spirit Realm Investigator

Probably of interest:

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Q: Are there any Christian churches that believe in both Sola Scriptura and Continuationism?

Are there any Christian churches / denominations that simultaneously adhere to Sola Scriptura and believe that gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12) are still available to the body of Christ? In other words, I would like to know if concrete counterexamples to this answer exist. Related questions...

GratefulDisciple

6:36 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator The answer is an easy yes, as both Sam Storms (full-fledged continuationist) and Craig Keener (cautious continuationist) hold Sola Scriptura. As I explained before, Sola Scriptura (as authority structure for Bible interpretation) and teaching on spiritual gifts (whether they should be an integral part of someone's faith life) are two completely different aspects. Would you ask whether there are car manufacturers that believe in both automatic transmission and anti-lock brakes?

Going back to St. Macarius, notice that he never frame the "revelation" he received (which technically private non-canonical revelation more properly called "prophecy" / "word-of-knowledge") as adding to the Bible, or as a means to interpret the Bible. Instead, he framed it as gifts to individuals to bolster their trust in God.

Spirit Realm Investigator

@GratefulDisciple - Makes sense, he saw the spiritual gifts as enhancements to his relationship with God, just like a bridegroom gives precious jewelry, adornments, clothes and many other presents to his bride. In other words, the spiritual gifts have to be seen in the right perspective, within the bigger picture of a loving relationship between a bridegroom and his bride.

GratefulDisciple

@SpiritRealmInvestigator Yes. The fallacies of charismatics is how much they feel lacking when the gifts were not given. It becomes (in my opinion) heretical when they even say that one is not fully Christian when they don't ask for the gifts. Another heresy is how they teach that a believer has the power to "declare gifts into existence" (as evidence of belonging to the kingdom), which is the word-of-faith movement.

St. Macarius framed it well when focusing on the warfare as the primary necessity and on the love and grace as the primary weapon.

Spirit Realm Investigator

I fully agree. That said, I still don't see anything wrong with asking for spiritual gifts with the right intentions and in the context of the bigger picture I mentioned earlier.

@GratefulDisciple - another question that might be of interest:

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Q: How do Cessationists distinguish between miracles and spiritual gifts? What is the biblical basis for such discernment?

I've heard Cessationists say many times that there is a difference between spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12) and healings & miracles from God. I have two questions: On Discernment. How do Cessationists distinguish between miracles from God and spiritual gifts? What does a miracle from God look like? Wh...

biblical-basis miracles spiritual-gifts cessationism discernment

GratefulDisciple

6:52 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator Sure. Like St. Paul, if our heart is burning with love to win others for Christ or to help others love Christ more, by all means, ask for spiritual gifts. But more importantly, ask for help in fighting sin. The right interpretation for 1 Cor 12-14 is the hierarchy of needs.

Then the difference between cessationist and continuanist is in the expectation of the likelihood that the spiritual gifts to be given. The continuanist becomes heretical if they become like the Corinthian church: seeing the gifts as higher status, or as wanting them for their personal benefits.

@SpiritRealmInvestigator By the way, I would like to thank you for helping me helping my friend. Your critical questions help me do research and crystalize my answers that can in turn help my friend recognize the false teachers that she has fallen into.

@SpiritRealmInvestigator I have to go now. TTYL.

GratefulDisciple

7:21 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator The Catholic understanding of charisms is one that I feel comfortable with. Unofficially, they define 25 charisms as follows: standrebessette.org/discovering-your-charisms.html . I'm comfortable with their definitions, as they prevent abuse and also underscore love for others as the underlying motivation.

GratefulDisciple

7:34 PM

@SpiritRealmInvestigator 3rd example for noticing how strongly he cautioned the brethren against being complacent: paragraphs 14-16 of Homily XXVII to answer "What does the apostle mean by saying, Though I have all knowledge and all prophecy, and speak with the tongues of angels, I am nothing?" The description is so graphic that it sounds like it's better not to have the gifts in the first place!

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