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rhetorician
rhetorician
12:02 AM
God wanted His children to live forever, and He designed them with bodies which would allow them to do so. They did not possess eternal life, like God, because they had a beginning, whereas God does not. Immortality and eternal life are not one in the same. When Christians say, "We will all live eternally because of what Jesus has done," they say the truth. Jesus said the same thing in John 3:16: to believe in Him is to have eternal life and not perish.
The eternal life of which Jesus spoke, however, looked forward, not backward. In the "backward direction," only God is eternal because He dwells in uncreated light. We, on the other hand, are children of created light, and we derive our immortality (and future eternity) from God our Creator.
I've probably gone further than I wanted. I have a feeling you still have unresolved questions, which is OK. At this point, however, let me make a few observations (some, none, or all of which may be accurate): 1) there is still something bothering you in this "controversy," and you are not sure exactly what that is and are unable to articulate it;
2) you enjoy controversy, argumentation, and the back and forth of the dialectic for the sake of controversy, argumentation, and the back and forth of the dialectic, which could be a sign of something deeper going on in your heart;
3) your inability to "resolve" this issue
is upsetting you and causing you to question the veracity of the Scripture and/or the wisdom of God in allowing things to unfold as He did in the Garden of Eden; 4) you are experiencing a spiritual challenge of some sort, and you are tempted to chuck the whole Christianity thing in light of this seemingly insurmountable challenge;
5) nothing I or anyone else can say will satisfy you, but again, not even you may be aware of exactly why that is; there's just "something" about this issue that sticks in your craw and that cannot be dislodged!
Am I getting close to what's going on in any of the above? Let me know. God bless!
 
 
1 hour later…
brilliant
brilliant
1:32 AM
@rhetorician “Am I getting close to what's going on in any of the above? Let me know”
- :) :) :) Hope you won’t be disappointed here, but you are not getting an inch close in any of those 5 points that you have described as observations.
I am experiencing a spiritual challenge?! I am tempted to chuck the whole Christianity?! I am questioning the veracity of the Scripture and God’s wisdom?! Where on earth did you get that?!!!! Once again: all I want to do is understand your view here. That’s it.
In fact, I’ve already said that number of times in this thread, but you, for some reason, are not paying attention to my words.
You know, it’s a bit funny: you yourself admit that A&E partaking of the TOL prior to their fall is only your assumption. Now, when I am trying to understand your basis for that assumption, you right away fall into something like “don’t question God”, “don’t question the veracity of the Scripture”, “don’t feel tempted to chuck the whole Christianity”, etc.
Does the whole Christianity believe that A&E partook of TOL? Of course, not! You are, in fact, the first one whom I met. That’s why I am asking you questions here. In this present thread what I am trying to understand is solely you, not the whole Christianity, and not even the Scripture.
Your “exactamundo!” answer in the very beginning of this thread led me to believe that you suggest that TOL imparted immortality only after A&E partook of the TOTKOG&E. Now, having read your latest reply, I see that it’s not the case.
If, in the very beginning, instead of saying “exactamundo!” you had read my question more carefully, we would’ve then avoided this misunderstanding that has lasted for more than two weeks. However, now it’s been cleared up, and I really consider it as a progress.
Now, allow me to continue asking you some small simple questions so that I can finally understand your perspective. So, according to you, immortality can be lost, right? I mean, A&E had immortality right after their creation – before partaking of any tree – however, that immortality was losable. Am I correct here?
 
rhetorician
rhetorician
2:12 AM
No offense intended. I'm flattered you want to understand what my view is. Evidently, I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it. I was probably mistaken in suggesting A&E may have partaken of the TOL prior to their fall from grace.
Again, this "tree" may be, in a sense, purely symbolic or metaphorical. I realize in saying this I'm on potentially dangerous ground, because once I allow for the TOL to be a metaphor, where do I draw the line? In other words, what ELSE is metaphorical in Genesis 1-3? Let's just say I'm content with just a few take-aways from the text. First, our first parents, being created in God's image, were given the ability to make decisions.
Clearly, they made the wrong decision when they disobeyed God. Because they disobeyed, God made good on His warning
that our first parents would die if they in fact disobeyed Him in this matter. (He could not do otherwise, for while disobedience is forgivable, the guaranteed consequences of disobeying God in the matter could not be undone.)
Second, A&E's disobedience triggered the process of physical and spiritual death, which is partly the separation of spirit from body upon death, and the separation of
 
rhetorician
rhetorician
2:59 AM
--or partly the separation of man from fellowship with God, both in this life and perhaps in the life--or existence--to come, in hell. Yes, I believe they lost their immortality by sinning. Eternal life, however, is still available to all who repent and believe. Third, we can sit around discussing until the cows come home the things which happened in the Garden of Eden. Doing so will not change the facts, and those facts are: a) God's Plan A from the beginning was to clean up the mess we made;
b) His plan did not obviate our accountability for our sin (that is, His having a Plan A didn't cause us to sin, any more than God's knowledge that I'll sin tomorrow somehow makes me less responsible for what I'll do when I actually do sin tomorrow; and c) even our "messing up" cannot prevent His Plan A from coming to fruition, because in the end, good will triumph over evil, God over Satan, righteousness over unrighteousness, justice over injustice, and so on. That's just the way things are.
To help keep things in perspective, it's good once in a while to read passages such as Isaiah 40:15 and following, where we learn that the nations (even evil nations) "are like a drop in the bucket, And are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales. . . . All the nations are as nothing before Him . . .. To whom will you liken God?"
Have you ever tried to weigh a speck of dust on your bathroom scale? That's what all the nations amount to in God's sight. All this to say, God's Plan A is unstoppable, inexorable, and undefeatable.
Again, I'm sorry if I've offended you by attempting to read too deeply into your eagerness in getting an answer to your question with which you will be at least a bit satisfied. Satisfied enough, that is, to move on to the next question. Blessings on you. Don
 
 
10 hours later…
brilliant
brilliant
1:05 PM
@rhetorician :) I am not offended at all.
 
 
5 hours later…
rhetorician
rhetorician
5:57 PM
Good. I'm glad. Blessings! Don
 

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