Creationism vs. ☐

4:30 AM

@AChildofGod As @JamesShewey pointed out, the eruption of Mount St. Helens didn't create anything similar to the Grand Canyon. Beyond that, YECs claim Noah's flood didn't just carve the Grand Canyon, it also deposited all the sedimentary layers that can be seen in the canyon walls. That claim is--to put it charitably--completely unsubstantiated. Again, we see desert sandstone among the layers.

There are places on this earth where we can see clear evidence of flooding--for example, the Channeled Scablands of the Pacific Northwest, or Antelope Island in Utah. These areas show none of the stratification we see in the Grand Canyon.

Lee Woofenden

6:31 AM

What I find very unfortunate is that we even have to have this conversation. There is none, zero, zip scientific evidence that the Bible is scientifically correct about the creation of the universe. This should be a dead give-away that that's not what the Bible is talking about.

But because of the materialism and superficiality of our age, which has infected hundreds of millions of Christians as well, we have to argue about silly things such as whether the world was created in six days—as if that has any relevance at all to our spiritual salvation and eternal life. God has better things to do than tell us how long it took to create the earth.

I view the Age of Enlightenment and the scientific revolution as a call to Christians to leave behind materialism and a focus on physical things, and seek out the deeper, spiritual realities that are the real message of the Bible.

Similar to Jesus' dialog about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6:22-71, the vast increase in scientific knowledge over the past few centuries is separating those whose minds are stuck on material things from those whose minds can rise up to spiritual things. YECs fail that test. Their minds are stuck on material things, so that they completely miss the real, spiritual message of the Bible.

curiousdannii

8:18 AM

@LeeWoofenden What do you think the spiritual message of the mythical global flood is?

James Shewey

10:25 AM

Curiousdanni - the bible tells us what the message is in Gen. Chapt 6 though I guess some clarity has been lost to time and missing cultural context.

A Child of God

4:43 PM

I am not an expert on this subject, nor pretend to be. I speak only of what I know and have been taught. The reason there appears to be no evidence is because the government and secular scientists hide it and discredit anybody who does otherwise.

This is madness

Why would God even tell us about the creation of the world if He didn't want us to know that He did it? It was He who created the world and wants everyone to know that it was Him. That is the purpose of the creation account.

If you don't want to believe anything I say, fine. Your decision, not mine. I will let God deal with you. I believe the reason you don't want to accept the Bible as a literal and physical account is because you don't want to accept the Truth. You do not want the leading scientists (who are against God) to be wrong.

Why can't you accept this hard but real truth that the Bible is useful for more than just learning spiritual things?

James Shewey

5:55 PM

That's some conspiracy theory... What about all the religious scientists?
Just because it didn't happen in 7 days and the earth isn't 6000 years old doesn't mean He didn't create. It also doesn't mean I do not believe that we are to take the account literally. I can take scripture literally without believing it is the actual, physical account.

The purpose of the creation account was to tell us that God created, but it is also so much more than that.

@AChildofGod - if the bible is not a book about our spirituality, if it does not provide the religious narrative of God's relationship to his chosen people, than what is it? It certainly wasn't written as a science textbook, so I am just reading it for what it is and not reading it for what it isn't.

Why does god need to "deal with me"? Why does this mean that I am rejecting "Truth" - are Old Earth Creationists not Christian too? If I accept the bible as physical account of a 6000 year old earth, do I not also have to accept the belief that the earth was flat as scripture taught?

If I accepted science when it said that the earth was round, why should I reject it when it says the earth is about 4.5 billion years old? If you are not an expert on the subject, then why do you quarrel with the supermajority of scientists who are and agree on the age of the earth?

Lee Woofenden

6:28 PM

@curiousdannii About the spiritual message of the flood—or at least of some of its details, see this answer of mine:

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A: Is there any Christian theological model for a non-literal ark?

Yes, there is a Christian theological model for a non-literal ark. Such a model is provided and developed in great detail by Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) in his massive work Secrets of Heaven, originally published in eight Latin volumes in London, 1749-1756. In Secrets of Heaven #554-1059 Swed...

Also this article of mine offers a somewhat fuller version: Noah’s Ark: A Sea Change in the Human Mind.

However, both of these are only very brief accounts of some of the meanings within that story. Swedenborg spends over 300 pages in his exegesis of the spiritual meaning of Genesis 6-9, and even he considered that exposition to be a mere summary of the spiritual meanings involved.

Short version: the Flood represents a major spiritual transition both in early humanity on this earth and in our own early childhood, from a time of simple oneness of mind to a time in which we have a divided mind in which we can think one thing and want another.

This became the basis for our capacity to be regenerated, or spiritually reborn, ever after. Since our will had become corrupted by evil (represented by Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil), it was necessary to separate our intellect from our will so that even though we desire something evil, we can (through the Lord's power, of course) prevent ourselves from acting on that desire, and follow God's commandments instead.

Prior to that, whatever we wanted, whether good or evil, our mind immediately assented to and acted upon. That was fine when our will was good as originally created. But once our will was corrupted, it was a recipe for disaster, and resulted in our rapid moral and spiritual decline until:

> The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. (Genesis 6:5)

The Flood represented the end of those early humans who had undivided minds, but whose wills had become "only evil all the time." Noah represented a new generation of human beings who were capable of controlling their actions through the exercise of an intellect that could act contrary to the evil will, and bring about reformation of the human heart. And that has been our basic spiritual and psychological makeup ever since.

Once again, this reformation happens not through our own power, but through God's power working in and through us.

However, without the divided mind (represented by the rooms in the ark), it would be impossible for God to reform and regenerate us, because there would be no part of us that was not entirely steeped in and driven by our fallen, sin-prone nature.

This is a thumbnail sketch of the general spiritual meaning of the story of the Flood.

James Shewey

6:44 PM

I would have to disagree with that assessment. I think that the flood was God's first attempt at starting over in order to redeem mankind. One can think of it like pruning. You cut off the parasitic branches in order to make the plant as a whole grow stronger and more healthy.

Yet mankind returned to their sin in the Tower of Babel story.

Things just go downhill from there.

And Israel continues to return to their sin over and over and over.

This is the theme of the old testament - especially judges and the minor prophets.

Lee Woofenden

@AChildofGod Knowing that God was the one who created the world does not require us to believe that it was literally, scientifically created as described in Genesis. The general truth that God created the universe is true regardless of the specific mechanisms by which God created the universe. No Christian disagrees that God created the universe. But only some Christians think it must have happened literally as described in Genesis.

James Shewey

God continually tries to redeem Israel and Israel returns to their sin until finally God had to send his son to redeem mankind once and for all.

In other words, humanity is not improving spiritually or growing, but devolving and only Christ could save us from our own sins and humanity.

Lee Woofenden

@JamesShewey Yes, there was still a continual downward trend, and periodic "last judgments" in which the previous corrupted generation was wiped out or sidelined, and a new start was made, only to once again become corrupt over time.

The story of the Flood simply lays the foundation in the human mind and spirit for us to have the capability of being reformed and regenerated. And yes, ultimately it was only the coming of Christ that accomplished our redemption.

The spiritual history of humankind is one of slipping into successively lower spiritual states over the ages, until the coming of Christ. This is represented by the great statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, with a head of gold, chest of silver, belly of bronze, legs of iron, and feet of mixed iron and clay, all of which was supplanted by the stone not made by human hands, which became a mountain that filled the earth.

For Christians, the stone that became a mountain is an obvious symbol of Jesus Christ, who was the spiritual turning point of history.

Since then we have been struggling our way back upwards spiritually, but that is still a two steps forward, one step back process. The current materialism of much of Christianity represents a step backwards, which is now being corrected, we Swedenborgians believe, through a new and more truly Christian era that will replace the old, corrupted version of Christianity that is now being rejected by much of the educated world.

Some of this is covered in my answer here:

1

A: How can the "Son of Man" passages of Matthew 24 be interpreted as a fulfilled prophecy?

I am responding to this question primarily because it originated in a Christianity.SE chatroom discussion that I was involved in, which started (more or less) here, and because I was invited by the OP here to respond to the question. This answer is based on the Bible interpretations and doctrines...

But here is the answer I was looking for, which addresses these issues even more directly:

1

A: Was there a reason Jesus came at the time he did?

Though this answer is based primarily on the Bible itself, it comes from a perspective outlined in the theological writings of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772). Human spiritual ages start pristine, then fall, and finally end in corruption and destruction In the Bible, various time periods or ages...

fredsbend

8:43 PM

@AChildofGod On what basis do you believe there is a conspiracy, since you also claim to only speak of what you know and have been taught?

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