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7:57 AM
OH MY GOD! Now I know what it is called in English! the term is 'annotation'!!

Thank you so much. I found the villain who caused so much trouble in my creative world. Its gone now.
8:10 AM
@Scott Astute has changes a lot. I know about this from Von Glitschka's tutorials. The plugin he used in all those tutorial vs the one am using has significant differences.
8:25 AM
6 hours later…
2:43 PM
@NeverLookBack Even though we can't answer your question on the main site, we can discuss it here ;)
3:04 PM
@Vincent Okay, tell me how do you handle this?
I'm very blunt, but I tell my customers that upfront.
btw I thought you are INDIAN. lmao. today I know you are not.
I prepare my customers for my way of communicating even in my quotes.
If a customer gives a piece of feedback that is subjective or doesn't tell me anything that I can use to determine what they do want, I tell them so.
@Vincent I am same. My boss today told me to be smart, He thinks the way I think is wrong. First opinion came from him. some of my colleagues share same value. Maybe am not fit for this time. Swallow safe dignity for the sake of money- is not my thing.
I saw that comment, yes.
Here in the Netherlands, it's usually valued if you speak up.
3:07 PM
I deleted my question. After that 'Zach comment'
Then also, I'm self-employed. So if it doesn't work out with one customer, there's always others.
@NeverLookBack I can still read deleted questions ;)
I do not get this platform. ppl barb here if I thank someone, people close question if its opinionated! I need the opinions! i dnt have problems with opinions! NO! close it.
@Vincent how can u?
But Zach was right: this is impossible to answer objectively in a way that it ends up a Q&A that is useful to anyone but yourself
why cant I :?
if you score a certain amount of reputation points, you get certain privileges
3:09 PM
@Vincent Ah , I see, how much I need to get that privilage?
one of them is reading (recently) deleted stuff
now I know why some ppl attack if they dent get ticked their question by me. haha
@Vincent Thank you
@NeverLookBack well, to put it as shortly as possible, we are not a forum but a Q&A site. We want Q&A interactions that are objectively, provably correct, and are of use for other visitors.
And yes, some are very fanatical when it comes to garnering rep points :)
The help center has a fw pages that might tell it better than I do now
@Vincent Understood. So this community answers only those which serves more people, than one. But how does the community know that more people dnt seek that same answer?
We have some rules in place to ensure objectivity and applicability. I don't remember those exactly, it has been a while since I was a mod
3:13 PM
hm. I will change this one day If I become Mod ever :D
@NeverLookBack I think you'll have to make it to board member of Stack Exchange itself to make that change. And then convince the rest of the board :P
@Vincent LMAO.
@Vincent WOW. so many things yet to know about this site
I saw this when I was checking your reputation points. is this blocking?
Dear lord, plz bring the one I wanna block here. Amin :D
@NeverLookBack that's for ignoring on chat only, not on the actual sites.
@WELZ Oh no :(
3:29 PM
@NeverLookBack Yeah, chat is mostly separate from the main site. Sorry!
@Vincent Anyway Thank you for sharing your thoughts regarding my question. I feel good that am not alone who thinks same. <3
2 hours later…
5:32 PM
@Wrzlprmft, I need a mod advice. I answered this question although I shouldn't have. It's really a pure JavaScript question and not about Graphic Design. The OP didn't know that though. What is the standard way of voting to migrate to SO? I don't find that option in the close menu.
2 hours later…
7:38 PM
@Wolff The standard way is to flag it for moderator attention. User-controlled migration paths only exist between a few pairs of sites where this happen very often.
8:12 PM
I saw the question @NeverLookBack -- do you mean you HAVE to give client feedback.. like on crowdsourcing sites? I, honestly can't recall ever doing such a thing directly... But I would always be polite and kind if I had to. One NEVER knows where they next great project may come from. and I rarely get much feedback from clients, other than the check they send and the fact they rehire me.
and.. @wolff I always thought js/scripting as it relates to design tools was fairly on-topic here.
Not much different than how to I paint this photo in Photoshop, etc. SO users won't necessarily know adobe scripting intricacies.
2 hours later…
9:49 PM
@Scott Yes, I would normally agree. But the problem the OP had was with basic JavaScript. Strings, arrays and their methods. Didn't really have anything to do with Illustrator. I answered at first but later changed my mind.
It's a bit like ... Problems with Adobe CC. We have a lot of questions where the answer is "reset your settings". But if people start asking about what folders and files are?
lately I develop one 3d project based on the requirements my client provided.

So I prepared the file, showed him, he asked changes, I obliged and finish it successfully.

Before submitting I asked him if ‘Everything is okay?’ Can I submit now? With his ‘okay’ I submit the file and wait for the payment.

Suddenly out of the blue he demanded some changes which were impossible to make at that stage, when I asked you didn’t mention this once in the entire week! Now it’s not possible. I have to redesign the whole thing! It will be like a new project!
@NeverLookBack All those secret questions and answers I only hear about in rumors ... 🙄
@Wolff ha ha
you are not a mod?
if you were you can see the deleted queston.
@NeverLookBack I thought I could because of my rep, but i can't see that one for some reason ... not sure why
@NeverLookBack Well the customer is always right ... if they in fact are a customer (= pays).
how can Scott see?
9:54 PM
@NeverLookBack More rep? Not sure.
Perhaps at 20,000 I can.
@Wolff No. this is wrong. I want to change this theory.
Doesn't matter.
@Wolff true. dsnt matter
@NeverLookBack I know. I've had a few unreasonable clients myself.
The problem is when you have vague agreements.
Sincerity must be valued. Client should learn this
9:57 PM
I agree. Where I come from it's not normal to have real contracts for smaller jobs. It would scare away clients. But agreements made by mail is legally binding here.
where you are from if I may ask
So for example if I send something for approval and they answer "It's looks nice." I ask them to kindly reply that they "approve". To force them to take responsibility (together with me of course).
@NeverLookBack Denmark
@NeverLookBack You must admit that a client that wants to change everything is a lot less annoying if they are willing to pay in full.
@NeverLookBack (Are you googling? 😂)
This client was a British. They are the epitome of 'courtesy' , he was very polite. but I Think its not right for him to say sorry after I developed the entire thing.
@Wolff noo. I know geography and I know Denmark too.
@NeverLookBack If the "sorry" doesn't come with money it's a bit of a half excuse.
@Wolff you are talking like my colleagues.
10:02 PM
@NeverLookBack OK, but didn't you say that this client actually didn't have to pay for the remake?
@Wolff hmm, now I see the point :D
@Wolff He didn't wanna pay! he want another design under same budget!
why would I do that?
Maybe I misunderstand. Was the project redone or not?
I did exactly what he asked. later he demanded changes which was impossible to make at that point , I have to go back to square zero
so in my point of view its a new project
@NeverLookBack So he asked for changes, you said no and then his company dropped the changes and went with your original idea?
10:06 PM
So he was just getting your pulse up for no reason? Perhaps he just messed up and regretted. Maybe he didn't knew what big of a deal it would be to make the changes?
He tried to make a new design, but when I refused to create one he accepted, paid me for the original one.
@NeverLookBack So you actually won this "battle" didn't you? But your colleagues think you should've been more accommodating?
@Wolff He actually forgets to update me, he gave me old file, but his team developed new design. So why will I suffer for his forgetful mind?
@Wolff yes, they think I accepted his offer! and change it. I said I would rather die!
@NeverLookBack Ah. He was in trouble and tried to rub it off on you. That happens. Have to keep your head cool in cases like that.
commitments matter Wolff. I was devoted, he was not.
if I value his money and time he should feel same way.
10:11 PM
@NeverLookBack In very rare cases when I feel my contact person is driving me around and wasting time, I might add their superior (who is paying) CC to the mails. The contact person can't really address it because why would they have secrets and the superior get some insight in how difficult the job is for the designer.
good point
But I don't have many cooperate clients with a strict line of command. More NGOs, public institutions, small businesses, artists, schools, theatres, private persons and such.
Wish they knew how hard designing is
@NeverLookBack I guess you've seen this question? Kind of related.
@Wolff lucky you
yes I saw and laughed. some clients will ask for original ideas and when you submit they get disappear .
I never work for free, you have to pay for seeing the ideas too.
10:17 PM
@NeverLookBack I've only experienced that once
@Wolff then you know how it feels
My experience tells me.. when you find a difficult client.. deal with it.. shut up and smile. Get the work done. If you feel the scope has changed, certainly mention that and see if they are willing to renegotiate. if they aren't then politely explain you were paid to do XYZ, you've done XYZ.
I have a question, why this question was bot closed and mine was!
You're lucky you got paid. Often you won't for that type of situation
10:19 PM
THAT question did get close votes, not enough though
and since it hit hot network questions.. well.. that balloons traffic and make the bots less liekly to close
@Scott shut up and smile- My colleagues say same. :'(
It's not worth yoru reputation to voice dissatisfaction
@Scott :D
They tell 2 people you were mean to them.. they tell 2 people.. they tell 2 people.. etc.
Will my reputation go away/ or be taken away if I express dissatisfaction?
10:21 PM
Just be more direct if they approach you again... I'll OFTEN find a way to overprice or otherwise discourage a difficult client when they approach me again later.
@Scott Okay I will follow this. Thank you.
You you shouldn't be mean ever, but sometimes you have to stand your ground. Some clients even like that in the end.
It's VERY easy to get a reputation as being a "problem" in the circles of businesses that hire designers... especially if you do a lot of work in the same general genre, i.e. a lot of finacial stuff, or educational stuff, or real estate, etc..
Don't get me wrong. I've actually yelled at a client in the past :) We all have our breaking point.
@NeverLookBack I think it's all about your expectations. If I have a client who is very focused on getting a cheap price and quick delivery. They send me their stuff and instructions, maybe even a brand manual. I make something I believe lives up to the price and they want endless revisions ... that can really ¤%& me off.
@Scott I yelled in my head :D
10:26 PM
I screamed at a client over the phone once.. just got tired of him treating me like a 12 year old slave he could control and dictate my business operations.
@Wolff I give to my client more than they negotiated for, I never compromise with quality. May be this is why I get upset easily.
But I also have another kind of clients. This old artist (about 80 years old). We've been making some books together. He comes in with the whole book drawn as thumbnails. We start from page 1 and make perhaps 8-16 pages in day. Then I print what we made and he goes home and revises the whole book! So next day we start by changing the pages we already made and then we make some more. Next day the process repeats.
@Scott Really!!
But he pays and I know beforehand that's how it's going to be.
@Wolff Cute!
10:27 PM
@NeverLookBack I know. I do the same. Some people are better at holding back a bit, being tactical. Then they have some more when the client wants more. I can't think like that.
It really all comes down to the money :) Pay me well enough and I'll never say a thing, no matter what you want.
@NeverLookBack Yes! Another thing is also that we like each other. With hugs and all.
@Scott Ah come on! 🙄
@Scott TRUE
@Wolff Aww , it's really cute. You gonna miss him when the project will end.
@NeverLookBack We've made many things now. I also help him to visualize projects for applications and such.
We've had 3 clients in my time who we asked to not come back because they were rude. They all came back. Hat in hand. 😂
@Wolff then you become family.
@Wolff ha ha
10:30 PM
That's generally the case... once you refuse a client, they suddenly realize your value
@Scott yes, :D
@Scott That and also I imagine that they have the same problems everywhere. It's not new to them that people find them rude.
@Wolff Rude people usually are weak. they use rudeness as a mask to hide their worthlessness
One told me, after giving me the worst brief ever and I just freestyled something to get it done, that she had shown my work to everyone she knows and that they all laughed loudly at it.
oh man
10:32 PM
@Wolff How cruel a woman can be!!!
.. my question to her... 'Okay, then why are you speaking about a project with me again?"
She wanted a "redesign" of some signs and when I called her to get more details she had this "You're the designer right? Then design!"-attitude.
oh my!
@Scott Next time her husband called haha.
10:34 PM
I like my work.. same 15-20 people... I don't deal with the general public or random clients any more.
@Scott Sounds nice. A bit fragile perhaps?
a tad... but still workable.. If I'm slow I sent a bulk email and projects generally come in.
I do have my horror stories though
share one
if its not too much
Work is low here. Probably because of Corona. Many of our clients are closed down. like public venues. And everything is postponed all the time.
I could use 1 or maybe 2 more clients that use me as much as my top 2 clients do..
Everyone is suffering cuz of covid in my circle
They struggle... means I struggle... 2021 worst business year I've ever had
10:38 PM
@Scott Same here I think. We do have kind of generous support from the state though. Helped us through. But it ends here in January, but I don't expect work to suddenly pour in.
yeah I got gov stimulus in 2020 when they did that but that wasn't even a month of expenses.. and self employed isn't getting the unemployment and other benefits. I'm in bad shape this year... I'm REALLY hoping things turn around Q1
@Scott Here we are able to (one month more) to get, I think it's 80% of the salary covered if we have to send home more than 1/3 of the company because of lack of work caused by covid.
And we've also been able to get some of our lost profit covered.
that's good!
But it comes with TONS of paperwork of course. So much that in some cases it's cheaper to say no.
There are gov LOANS for small businesses here.. but well it's a LOAN.. I don't want to gather more looming debt
I don't have a lot of debt and don't want to just acquire more.. with no way of knowing when all this is going to end.
of course.. the gov is forgiving some of these loans... but there's no way of knowing they'll do that in the future
10:46 PM
@Scott Sure is. But it's fair enough because the government chooses which kinds of businesses to close (like restaurants or theatres). So the loss of profit isn't "natural" if you know what I mean.
We can get support because the graphic industry is indirectly hit by other insutries closing down.
yup. I'm always in that 5% that is just getting screwed :) Small 1-person business with no inventory or direct public customer needs
Yeah. I guess you have to look after yourself. A cowboy of sorts. 🤠😉
you'd think .. since a lot of my clients focus on "work from home" type of stuff I'd be doing better... but apparently even they have seen a 30-40% decline
@Scott On top of covid we also struggle with a great increase in paper prices. Like 25%. And just today we received a mail from the paper company: another 5-25%! Do you have that in the states?
yeah supply chain is a problem too. It's hitting here.. and partially why a lot of my print work has been put off or delayed
10:50 PM
5 am here. I am going to sleep. Thank you both for sharing your experiences, I am grateful, I really need those guidelines <3 Good night :)
We of course bill the clients, but they aren't always willing to pay. Or cut down on issues of magazines to compensate = less money from design.
Night NLB
@NeverLookBack Good night! Nice chatting. 😸
my clients always pay.. but they don't always do that big project they do every January.... that's where things get sticky for me...
I did also raise my rates in 2020 for the first time in like 5 years. Not enough so they'll notice.. but I will
@Scott Same here. If we ordinarily make all sorts of stuff for a general meeting: signs, reports, name tags etc., now we just make a web PDF.
@Scott, have you seen stuff like this?
It's AI generated images. Give it an image, a crude mask and a sentence and it will create the wanted image.
Can also create images from scratch just from a sentence.
10:57 PM
nope haven't seen it @Wolff interesting.. one less need to hire me :)
@Scott yeah. It worries me a bit. Or makes me think at least.
well.. at least we arent' warhouse workers being replaced by robots already
It's of course still in its beginning. And only has limited images. And then there's the copyright problem.
But I think in the next, I dunno, 10-30 years this can be made into a product.
The death of low end graphic design at least. Wanna make a book? Just upload the manuscript and describe with words what you want. Then refine the result by telling the AI what you want to change.
The result will not be like fine dining, but more like a cheap microwave dinner, but the job is done. Without a designer.
some of the second one just looks liek a stock image search
@Scott They claim the images are generated from the sentences. Based on the tons of images they have taught the AI about.
11:01 PM
well Iv'e seen that hedgehog before...
and the corgi
@Scott Haha!
@Scott They might have fed the AI with free stock images you have also seen?
aound 2001 worked at a company where a guy was sellign dog supplements... he had a corgi.... so.. uhm.. yeah
They don't show all the failed attempts of course.
of course not :)
I totally dislike this movement from human intelligence which can solve a problem deliberately with preciseness to sloppy, blurry AI that arrives at a result incrementally. But I think we just have to accept it.
And work with it. Not end up like typographers or other extinct species. 😀
11:06 PM
yeah... if you don't have the eye for detail, like most of the public.. it doesn't matter to you
"good enough" works if it's free, or nearly free, for many people
But it's not much different than the 90s when only those who were specialized used Photoshop... now for $20 a month your great aunt Edna can use Photoshop too!
@Scott Yes. That's also democratization in a way. But what will people do for a living? We can't all be CEO of a big tech corp.
@Scott True. But there is a "war" going on right now where programmers/tech is sucking out knowledge from all other industries to automatize their skills. Already happened in so many fields.
yeah we are heading towards a singularity where technology actually makes like much, much worse on the whole than it helps.
heck mobile phone have already proven what a detriment tech is to society and merely "getting along" and communicating.
Once Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Google merge.. well.. they'll have to dole out checks to everyone so they can live.
Everything will be available to everyone. But in reduced quality and the price is your soul (so to speak).
Or the illusion of everything.
I asked a colleague a while ago... "Do you remember a time when you just DIDN'T know something? A time when there was NO WAY of knowing it unless you either went to a library to research or met someone who DID know?" --- No one born in the last 30 years knows that feeling.
@Scott haha true. But no one can' remember what they read on Wikipedia 10 minutes ago
11:14 PM
but they can merely reload the page
@Scott or ask their ai and get the answer displayed on their glasses or injected into the brain with their chip
yup :) Well I'm glad I'm getting older... I won't be around in 20 years hen tech has REALLY caused issues :)
You won't know if people actually know something out are merely having a HUD helping them through life
@Scott knowledge stored in your brain is still valuable. Makes googling so much faster. So there will still be a division between the educated and the illiterate. I'm just afraid the gap will increase
we'll all have HUDs implanted int he base of our skulls :)
@Scott Musk and Zuck working on that
11:18 PM
really.. once you get past elementary school... most of what you need in life can be goggled :)
You only need high school or heaven forbid college if you want to be a doctor or some degree that's required.
@Scott Sure, but what to search for?
doesn't matter... google will ask.. 'Did you mean...."
Ask on Instagram? "Pleazzzze help! I need to underztand the theory of relativity ASAP! Hugz & Love."
you just search for what you need... "How to change a light bulb." "How to pet a cat"
@Scott "Did you mean where do I buy stuff?"
@Scott "What to do when going through the ice?"
11:20 PM
Is this lump on my back cancer?
anything ya need :)
I realized last week I never focused enough on Illustration. I should have been more diligent with it... found an agent and gone that direction... MIGHT try to do that now..
@Scott I know that I will never agree to anything like wearing smart glasses or getting a chip implanted. So the minute that becomes the norm I'll be a looser. And so be it.
@Scott I thought you did some illustration already?
I do.. but it's never been a career focus. Most my illustrations are to coincide with a sales piece. I don't really do anything like commissioned illustrations.. well, I have.. but only a handful of times
And.. I won't even buy an Alexa cuz I don't want Google listening to my home
Killed my Amazon Prime membership last week... it dawned on me how pointless it was..
@Scott I think Alexa is Amazon isn't it? I dunno. I hate anything speech controlled.
yeah.. google has something else that's similar.. either way.. no thanks :)
I think the Echo is Google
meanign it echos everything it hears to the google servers
"Yes, master"
"Could you please turn up the temperature a notch?"
"You didn't ask about my day ... don't you like me anymore?"
"Sorry. How are you? Now please turn up the temperature a notch."
"Turning up temperature a lot."
11:29 PM
radiator? What is this 1950?
@Scott Lol! I have radiators!
Ihaven't seen a radiator in decades :)
They do exist here though
older, bigger cities are more prone to them
@Scott My house is from 1880. Not the radiators though haha.
well 1880 makes sense :)
my house is 2007... central air
Back then all the apartments had their own heating stove.
11:31 PM
yeah or you just set cousin Timmy on fire in the winter.
"We're gonna need a new Timmy."
@Scott A friend once met an older American couple on vacation here in Copenhagen. They were looking at an old house from the 1800s and asked him: "What's in there?". "That's actually Google's headquarter in Denmark". "Oh! Google's headquarter is in a CASTLE!".
@Scott They had plenty. 8-10 people living where we live 2 now. The kids roaming the streets in day and sleeping on the floor at night.
@Scott, anyway illustration sounds like a good idea. If not for anything else, just for the sake of it. You know all the theory. Just have to forget it all and practice.
yup. it'd only be worth it if I could nail an agent to do all the stuff I dislike :)
I used to draw a lot, but after doing graphic design for a living I seldom do. I should take it up again. When I draw I feel very rusty, but I think it would come back again if I practiced more.
11:37 PM
I used to doodle all the time.. constantly.. kinda got away from that when I moved in 1999.. new town, new job, new troubles.. and just never really picked it up again.. need to bring it back.
I just keep a clipboard with cheap paper near the sofa and doodle while watching TV
I live with my gf who draws really well, so I shouldn't compare myself with her ...
no such thing as "well" just different styes :)
@Scott Uhm ... whatever 😂
hey I've seen some professional illustrations that.. well. I just don't "get" but someone somewhere paid to have it created
@Scott Her style is better too, haha. But of course. Years and years of practice.
11:41 PM
well the more you do, the better you get :)
Gotta run.. chat witcha later :) See ya @Wolff
@Scott See ya!

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