TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:12 AM

@JonathanHobbs Your use of the word "delimiter" cheers me.

BESW

12:49 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Hi!

And hi to @Rob too!

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW Dai

BESW

1:20 AM

[face/palm] I have the name for my first Dresden Files scenario. What You Gnome That Ain't So.

LitheOhm

@BESW definitely. Without something effective to combat said stagnation, all hope is lost.

BESW

@LitheOhm I can see having a lot of fun smashing different systems up against a 3.5 wizard and watching them go boom.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:57 AM

@BESW Eeeh, I love the idea of Ars Magica wizards :)

They have Parma Magica up and just laugh :)

BESW

2:22 AM

That could be fun; the interaction of different systems would be interesting for an advanced, experienced group to figure out.

Novian

2:35 AM

ive only played L5r once

BESW

@Novian That's one up on me.

I've not even read it.

...."Gasoline Shovels and Rope" is a lot less disturbing a thing to find in one's notes when you know it's a song and the group that wrote it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

3:20 AM

@BESW Of course, 3.5 wish literally wins. But... assuming that we somehow limit "rewrite the world".... And of course, have interesting constraints on time, cause 3.5 time is odd.

BESW

A level 70 caster can probably free-quicken any non-epic spell at least a half-dozen times a turn.

And that's without spamming time stop.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

3:39 AM

@BESW mmmmm

I'd probably still put my money on the Ars Magica wizard

at similiar experience

BESW

Knowing nothing about Ars Magica but having looked up Parma Magica, I think I'd still bet on the 3.5 wizard. Even if PM doesn't translate to "immune to spells with SR," which I suspect it might, the wizard can still impact the environment.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW yeah, depends on which world we're playing with

An Ars caster in 3.5 would not be in fun place

but influencing the enviornment is something they both do, and it wou;d be interesting

Lord_Gareth

4:12 AM

But can Ars Magica cheat around an AMF while standing inside one?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Lord_Gareth um?

Lord_Gareth

Initiate of Mystra and the Tinfoil Hat trick both let a 'zard cast inside an anti-magic field

Also clerics

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

It is determined by how we define an anti-magic field in Ars terminology

But yeah, if we're allowing divine casters from Ars to, they quite literally win. They can use "God wills it" as a way to ... um... ignore anything. They're quite quite cheesy.

Lord_Gareth

I see

So I logged in earlier, for the first time in awhile, and SUDDENLY UPVOTES all over my monster thread

Not sure how it happened.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

But yeah, it's mainly a question of what magic means in terms of Ars and 3.5 and if there's magic-magic transparency.

BESW

4:40 AM

1

Q: Looking for Role playing games with interesting social mechanics

Hopefully this produces some interesting sources for inspiration for my own designs: does anyone know of a system with an interesting take on handling social and similar situations, such as a debate or an attempt to seduce a foe to the dark side[1]? A few specifications to help narrow this down: ...

system-recommendation

@SimonGill Quick! to the FATE machine!

LitheOhm

4:58 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton that's powerful

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

5:44 AM

....

@LitheOhm to be fair the GM is the 13th century Abrahamic god, so he tends to be annoyingly picky.

But yeah, the divine is a "look, we're just going to go away quietly now, okay?"

Which... is why the PCs just avoid it and the infernal... entirely.

Cause it's saner that way.

@BESW ... yeaaap.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I think "Abrahamic" might work as a descriptor there.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

works

But yeah, the divine is /special/ literally...

LitheOhm

7:10 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton jedi?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@LitheOhm Ars Magica.

The only way you can interact with someone who is a Saint (or worse an actual angelic being) is if he/she wants you to or if god wills it.

LitheOhm

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I gathered. You know, I'm going to have to try this system

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

All other interactions are... ignored?

LitheOhm

hm

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@LitheOhm It's fantastic, though I wouldn't poke at the divine overmuch.

Basically God, as root, has made the various minions that are Doing His Will... superusers. And it's really annoying for the normal lusers of the system.

LitheOhm

7:11 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I like what I've gleaned from you/your questions/the Wiki page about the division of arcane magic

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I see

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

8:03 AM

That Roll20 virtual table looks nice.

Anyone tried it?

doppelgreener

8:32 AM

@William'MindWorX'Mariager I have fiddled around with the editor, but have yet to play a session in it.

It is very nice. It's got more features than I even expected from it. Some of the newer ones need work, like how there are card decks, but you only have one deck per participant (not per character, and so there's also not multiple decks per character).

It's been crafted very well and still being worked on.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Yeah, I like the look of it. I've been thinking about supporting it. Looks like it has great potential.

doppelgreener

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Plenty of potential, and from the looks of it, developers who will make it meet its potential (and then maybe go a little bit further).

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

I'm definitely going to give it a go when I get home and see how I like it.

LitheOhm

9:13 AM

anybody played the new Uresia?

Rob

Ey up

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

10:00 AM

oookay.

That was far too much effort for a comment.

Simon Gill

10:10 AM

@BESW Just have to work out how to explain FATE's social conflict to someone who doesn't know it.

Rob

11:05 AM

Nice AWKing there Brian

BESW

AWK?

Simon Gill

@BESW Text manipulation tool. One of the Elder Gods of programming.

Rob

Well said @SimonGill

Between AWK and GREP you can control the universe... of text

Simon Gill

@Rob Hehe. There's a reason highly skilled UNIX professionals were known as wizards.

Rob

@SimonGill Quite often in my office people will ask each other for the "runes" to make it work (referring to a linux command)

Simon Gill

11:13 AM

@Rob They are quite arcane... and if you don't use them regularly they are easy to forget.

Rob

@SimonGill I've only really started using them in anger the last six months; and bash as well, was a windows bod before that. Changes how you think about stuff!

I keep finding myself thinking "Why can't I just grep this phone/book/app/chat/....."

BESW

"Do not meddle in the affairs of programmers, for they are sudo and quick to anger."

Simon Gill

@Rob Haha. Yeah. The UNIX way is definitely interesting. Filter chains and extreme modularisation are definitely good things.

Rob

@SimonGill Oh yes very much so; however continually evolving multiple platforms, not so much when you're trying to get to grips with things

@SimonGill I just keep writing more bash scripts for everything. It is my goal when I get into work one day to type:
./domywork
and then go home

BESW

I once ran across a computer sticker that said "Go away, or I will replace you with a very small shell script."

Simon Gill

11:19 AM

@Rob The core of it hasn't really changed in years though. It's the desktop environment that changes the most. Still looking for the Windows-killer environment I guess.

@BESW Many peoples interactions could be replaced like that... randomly generating incomprehensible bugs. Don't need much scripting for that.

Rob

@SimonGill Yeah; very true there; back when I used OpenWindows the ol' CLIwas basically the same. They did change services handling between F14/F16 which was bloomin' annoying though

Although why my company uses Fedora is beyond me

Simon Gill

@Rob Beyond me too. Didn't Debian win the packaging wars?

BESW

@SimonGill "The packaging wars" sounds like the sequel to Hardware Wars.

Simon Gill

@BESW Never heard of it... it's like the VHS/Betamax wars of yesteryear though :P

BESW

Hardware Wars

Hardware Wars is a 1978 short film parody of the classic science fiction film Star Wars. The thirteen-minute film, which premiered in theatres only seven months after Star Wars, consisted of little more than inside jokes and visual puns that heavily depended upon audience familiarity with the original. The theme song is Richard Wagner's famous "Ride of the Valkyries". The tagline was "You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll kiss three bucks goodbye." Synopsis The film begins with the text "Meanwhile — in another part of the galaxy — later that same day". A household steam iron f...

Rob

11:28 AM

Ok, I need to track that down.

Simon Gill

@BESW That's bizarre. Definitely something that should be on YouTube!

Rob

@SimonGill Linux-wars have been fought over less than packaging ;)

BESW

@SimonGill I assure you, it is.

►

Simon Gill

@BESW Haha, first comment "Still better than the prequels." Even without watching, I'd have to agree!

@Rob True.

Rob

@BESW Excellent, well that's lunchtime sorted

Makefiles, I hate 'em, I hate 'em so much

Simon Gill

11:31 AM

@Rob What's the problem with them?

Rob

@SimonGill They're broken and it's a spider web of dependencies

Simon Gill

@Rob Yeah, they are a pain. What would you use instead though?

Rob

@SimonGill Well I'm from a Visual Studio background, where it all worked "by magic" ;)

Simon Gill

@Rob So long as you do everything the expected way, at least :P

Rob

Yeah; I did like the whole integrated env, with debugging on the fly and changing variables at runtime, etc

Simon Gill

11:38 AM

@Rob Have you tried Eclipse at all?

Rob

@SimonGill Yeah, I quite liked it; done a lot of Qt dev; it can be a bit buggy and slow - then moved over to QtDesigner (or whatever it's called now) and that was quite good too

Simon Gill

@Rob But not appropriate for this project? That's a shame.

Gotta go for a bit though, catch you guys later.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

I quite like Visual Studio and MSBuild. You can make it do some crazy weird voodoo.

Rob

@SimonGill Seeya!

@William'MindWorX'Mariager I currently use VisualStudio to dev an entirely linux based project (purely as my editor and search env) I may get burnt at the stake ;)

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

I'm sure some people would. :P

Sometimes the crazy solutions are the most interesting. :P

I've inlined ASM in C# to avoid building a seperate dll in C. :P

Well, not inlined, but handcoded using the ASM byte values in a memory section with execute access. :P

Rob

11:46 AM

@William'MindWorX'Mariager Ouch, that's dedication to DLL avoidance. Mind you, that's C# to start with, so well done

Rob

11:57 AM

You ever clarify your rule 0 stance there @BESW ?

BESW

@Rob Yeah, didn't make it as much of a coherent missive as I expected though.

Rob

I'm quasi-pro rule 0, on the basis it just reminds the GM "It's your game."
Unless you're playing torloment or a national campaign (eg PFS) then I'd expect rule 0 is just the same as saying "welcome to my game"
But clarification of your changes, that's the important follow up bit

@BESW Fairy nuff

BESW

Long story short: First, it's an attitude, not a rule. It was given a fancy name to lend it rhetorical weight.

Second, it evolved out of valid issues that arose from the games of that time period, which expected a very high level of GM adjudication to even make the system functional.

Third, even in its original context it was only useful as part of the social contract: again, an attitude rather than a rule.

It is poisonous when it's treated as an excuse for the GM to ignore the social contract.

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

@Rob Yeah. I've done a ton of hacking, and C# is my preferred language.

BESW

(Which it usually is, sadly; if you have to invoke Rule 0 it means something's already gone wrong.)

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

12:01 PM

I've also made C# do some weird things. I am, as far as I know, the only person on the whole internet to create a manual implementation of the extern keyword.

Rob

@BESW The whole social contract thing is a pretty new idea (less than a year) for me, but I'm seeing it more. The GM in our PF game gave us a little sheet with a "welcome to my game rules list" which was nice

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Normally only used with DllImport, but I got it to do some other magic things for me, mainly for plugin.

Rob

@William'MindWorX'Mariager I tried C# for a bit, and it's great for turbo mini-ui-apps I thought, but the wierdness made me go running back to Qt

Phil

@Rob That's something I always do as a GM. It solves a lot of problems before they even occur

BESW

Rule 0 as an attitude is entirely valid if it is the result of a group consensus about how to deal with things like on-the-fly adjudication and the needs of the story overstepping the bounds of the rules.

Phil

12:03 PM

Sometimes group consensus is not possible though

BESW

But far too often it's used to place the GM in a position of power over the players, which is ridiculous: the GM has only the power the players give him.

Phil

different play styles et al

BESW

@Phil Part of being a good group member is compromising to the good of all, and part of being a good GM is being part of that compromise.

Rob

@Phil Well said; but as a GM, you get to be dictator on rules - when the game spec is outlined anyway ;)

BESW

Rule 0 is about allowing the GM to overstep the bounds of the rules by ignoring them, changing them, or ruling on unclear matters.

This is important because there is not a single game on God's green Earth that can function without the ability for the group to determine when these things are appropriate to do.

Rob

12:06 PM

@BESW I guess I'm more thinking that Rule 0 is "yes you can customise" flag for new GMs, but then that leads to a social contract and rules should be consistent afterwards, not changed as-and-when

BESW

But Rule 0 is an incomplete and misused solution to this need.

doppelgreener

@BESW It just occurred to me: that's more something the GM does as a player. The players are always right, and get to be the dictators on rules like @Rob said. However, the DMG also says the GM is in the position of being an adjudicator - which is mainly only useful for groups that don't have some peaceful harmony going on. At that point, what the players say goes elevates to what the DM says goes.

@BESW What about on the blue bits, and the reddish/yellowy bits?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs They're playing DotA.

Rob

@JonathanHobbs Does that make the GM the worlds physics? :)

BESW

The underlying issue is about who has power and why.

The GROUP has power. That includes the GM.

The GROUP is capable of investing a single member with power.

doppelgreener

12:08 PM

@Rob It makes the GM the world's subatomic physics. Indiscernible workings producing arbitrary results :D

BESW

But a single member does not need to have ALL the power, and probably shouldn't.

Rob

@JonathanHobbs Nice tweak, I like that :)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

It's more about trust, I think. Rules exist as a way of avoiding negotiations about position X. Rule 0 asserts "I don't know, or I know and do not approve of rule Y" By subverting the rules, it requires that the group have a greater trust in the DM. The invocation of the rule, however, reduces that trust unless the invocation is well justified and obvious... at which point it seldom needs to be claimed.

BESW

Many game groups (and systems) fall prey to the idea that because the GM is in charge of most of the behind-the-scenes work, he MUST be in charge of ALL meta aspects of the game.

If you trust your GM to make those decisions, and he's comfortable with it, that is fine. But it is neither a rule that this must be the case, nor is it the only workable outcome.

Constructs like Rule 0 seek to institutionalize assumptions that should not be unconscious.

Thinking about it, one of my major problems with Rule 0 is that it implies the GM has the right rather than the privilege to adjudicate.

The group chose a game system. That gives important and implicit information about what the group wants their experience to be like.

Rob

makefiles: Annnnnd it came down to one missing space, stupid file

@BESW So; dump rule zero, add "Make a social contract and clarify any houserules before play."

BESW

12:16 PM

The more the GM changes or ignores the system, the less that experience is going to be in line with the group's implicit request: this can be good if the system is an imperfect fit and the GM is canny about his choices, but to treat it as an inalienable right of the GM to fiddle with the system as he pleases is to insult and degrade the role of the rest of the group.

Phil

@Rob this

BESW

@Rob That's great if it's what your group wants.

Most of my groups expect and even require me to take a much more active and subtle role in the manipulation of the system to meet their needs.

But this is why they chose me as GM: they made it explicit they want the kind of stories I tell, the kind of experience I provide and the philosophies of play I follow.

And so it is my duty and my privilege to replace the skill challenge system when it fails us, and to tell the player that his bola-ranger is ruining everyone else's fun.

This is because they gave me that duty, not because I'm the GM.

They could just as easily have said "You're the GM, but we're playing RAW and you can't fiddle with anything. Roll dice in front of us, be entirely transparent."

And it would be my duty as GM to follow that, or bow out if I recognize that I can't do it.

Here's the other thing: the more the GM changes the RAW mid-campaign, the less the players can rely on their builds. The whole world becomes unpredictable and your character might function differently or cease to function at all. This is a major trust issue: when you build a PC you're assuming you know the rules you work with.

Rob

Good conversation going and it's time to run to the post office, curses. BBIAB!

BESW

You guys are saying "clarify houserules before play," and that's exactly right. If rules must be changed DURING play, make it explicit and give a chance for protest and rebuilding.

Rule 0 makes no such concession.

It is a blank check written to the GM, and it says "Your Whim Is Law."

Simon Gill

12:35 PM

Well, that was annoying. Get up to the dentist to get the filling that fell out replaced - turns out they booked me in for Feb instead of today and weren't clear that I was going to have to deal with a giant crater in my tooth for a month.

Anyway, back to the rule 0 conversation.

Phil

Gah, I hate dentists

BESW

My dentist isn't so bad... but he's both my namesake and one of my clients.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

::muttermuttermutter::

okay, sleep time

Simon Gill

I noticed that FATE has a better statement of it in the Golden "Figure out what you want to happen narratively and then work out how you can do that mechanically" and Silver "Never let the rules get in the
way of what makes narrative sense" rules.

@Phil The dentist isn't so bad, it's the systems that are annoying.

BESW

I keep going back to 6th Ed CoC's introduction.

It can't be generalized very well because they're talking specifically about their game, but they lay everything out on the table and say "this is what is expected, this is the experience the game is trying to invoke, here's the role of everyone at the table."

It has "purpose of play" and "cooperation" sections.

Also "expectations of play."

"If the investigators do exciting things stylishly and memorably, keeper and players alike have won."
"There also needs to be cooperation between players and the keeper."
"Though the keeper masterminds the world and sets up and runs the details, the game remains a game for him or her as well, and every keeper likes to have fun."

....one of my players just texted me a really esoteric rules question.

Simon Gill

12:47 PM

@BESW That is an excellent section. I wonder if somebody has generalised it.

BESW

1:22 PM

Anyway, in summary: Rule 0 codifies and legitimizes the idea that the GM has innate privilege to dictate the group's gaming experience, rather than being a fellow collaborator and participant in that experience. In the environment and context in which find this 'rule' arose, it made sense and was mitigated by various factors--but was still only constructive when not taken to extremes.

In modern gaming contexts it is largely obsolete and enforces an unhealthy antagonism between GM and players (distinct from the healthy antagonism many games require between GM and PCs), resulting in major schisms of trust and a false impression that the GM has power the group does not cede him.

While the intent behind Rule 0 is still applicable and healthy, it is now rarely invoked by name in healthy gaming circles: they have developed other strategies, more appropriate in modern gaming contexts, for dealing with the issues Rule 0 was intended to address.

Simon Gill

Totally agree.

Would it be worth asking the question "What is Rule 0 for?" and answering it with that?

BESW

I'm afraid the smoke from the resulting comment war would blot out the sun.

Rob

har

It's a somewhat subjective question

BESW

Yes.

My screed is not actually an answer to that question.

An answer to that question would require discussing the explicit reliance of early RPGs on GM adjudication to even make the systems work.

Simon Gill

@BESW I did simplify down as far as possible so I could get the thought out of my head. It was getting jammed somewhere in my brain.

BESW

1:33 PM

It would require talking about the limited nature of RAW and the need for human judgement to compensate for those limitations, especially when players inevitably come up with permutations unthought of by the authors.

@C.Ross Hi!

It would not be out of place to discuss the idea that GMing is onerous and a bribe of power is useful to ensure someone in the group will take up the mantle.

The apprehension that the person who runs the world must also be in charge of the metagame decisions is another contributing factor.

C. Ross

@BESW good morning

Rob

GM'ing should be fun, that should be part of the draw; like writing a giant dynamic story where the players explore your brain-world.

BESW

(And that breaking the rules is often necessary when the story exceeds the bounds of the game's structure.)

@Rob Agreed. But many older systems did not give the GM any fun except in the power he held over his fellows.

Fun could be found elsewhere in GMing, but it was not inherent in the system.

One of the reasons Rule 0 is so obsolete and toxic now is that these assumptions are no longer (where they ever were) valid.

Rob

@BESW I see a possible line into the discussion about if systems are just toolboxes ;)

And also what are the "older games" :)

BESW

And even where they are still valid, combining so many very different mechanical and social conflict zones into a single overbroad panacea has obvious flaws.

@Rob Well, there I'm generalizing based on study and second-hand knowledge, as I have no personal table experience with systems older than 3.5.

Rob

1:39 PM

Call of Cthulhu; first out 1981 - plenty of fun there

BESW

And I did say "many." Not even "most."

Rob

:)

The first game I played was MERP in around '85

BESW

I consider myself VERY lucky that I have had very few poor experiences as a GM.

Rob

@BESW Definitely so! Helps to find a good group of players and cling onto them

BESW

Quite aside from system flaws, it's quite easy for a GM to fall into various unhealthy patterns with his group.

@Rob The few 'bad' players I've had never stuck around long.

(Bad is in scare quotes because it's probably more a matter of significant style difference, but by and large whatever the reason they were very incompatible with the extant group.)

Rob

1:42 PM

"Your character turns into a jam sandwich, now what do you do?"

BESW

@Rob I turned a PC into a rock once.

Rob

@BESW Did that get a stoney response?

/ducks

BESW

The player role-played it very very well.

Simon Gill

@Rob Any lawnchairs in any of your games?

BESW

He was actually an insane rock, so... yeah.

(3.5. Symbol of insanity triggered a city-wide rampage, which was shut down by cops with scrolls of baleful polymorph.)

Rob

1:44 PM

@SimonGill A few garden gnomes...

BESW

@Rob I've been meaning to ask @SimonGill to help me stat up some garden gnomes...

Rob

@BESW The higher level you go with 3.5, the easier it is to cause citywide chaos

BESW

@Rob These guys were high 'teens in an epic underwater city.

If anyone's read the Vorkosigan novels, I basically put the Cetagandan capital underwater.

Simon Gill

@BESW haha. What are they going to be used for?

Rob

@BESW Some powerful magick to sling around then :) I'm looking forwards to 3/4th level spells in our PF game, some great laughs there

@BESW Take a gnome, reduce movement to 0, give them +10 fishing bonus

BESW

1:47 PM

@SimonGill Ordinary garden gnome lawn statues unintentionally turned into constructs by a changeling child whose powers activate early due to fear and stress. The gnomes are charged with protecting the children of the neighborhood at night, which results in very terrified children reporting what their parents think are nightmares. That's the hook for the PCs to come in.

Rob

@BESW Stone golems -2 levels of size ?

BESW

I'm really tempted to give them a poisonous bite. [wry]

@Rob FATE system. DFRPG.

Simon Gill

@BESW So what threat level do you think they are? What should they be capable of dealing with by themselves?

Rob

@BESW Ahhh, gotcha; alas, never played FATE

BESW

@SimonGill By themselves, not much; you can kick 'em. I want one of the potential endgame setpieces to be an army of them.

I'm wondering if a swarm build like the cloud of snakes example might not be in order.

A couple of the gnomes can be dealt with easily, although they might bite you if they get the drop on you.

Rob

1:52 PM

@BESW Although there are traits I can suggest:
"You can't do THAT with a fishing rod!!"
"Waddle slowly but determined"
"Kill one and a dozen others shall replace me."

Simon Gill

@BESW Sounds reasonable.

BESW

@Rob I'm imagining an attack where a bunch of them stand behind you, and another trips you up so you fall on their pointy hats.

Rob

@BESW Haha! Evil! Give the gnomes spiked WW1 german style helmets for extra effect ;)

BESW

So maybe stat up a single gnome as a fairly minor threat, and then stat up a swarm of maybe ten.

Simon Gill

@BESW The Evil Eye - those reflective eyes can be pretty unnerving at night, which would filter through the changelings dreams of the critters. Turning them into Laser Eyebeams could work as well.

Rob

1:58 PM

Laserbeam eyed gnomes, genius

Although I'm now imagining their fishing poles turning into lightsabres...

Simon Gill

@Rob Might be a little far.

Gremlin-style trap-building is also a possibility.

BESW

Yeah, I want to keep them pretty straightforward actually.

They're made unconsciously by a child's fear that his friends will be taken away, as guards for the children.

Diminutive Size [-1], Inhuman Toughness [-2] (easy catch: hammer-like objects) [+2], Claws (Venomous) [-2]

That's a bit tougher than I'd originally thought, but I like it.

Gives them a 2-stress damage cap, but ongoing attacks from venom. Bonus to dodging and hiding. +2 physical stress boxes, armor:1 except against hammer-like objects.

Simon Gill

Seems ok for stunts - what about skills?

There should be a template for low-threat faceless NPCs somewhere.

BESW

Good is the skill cap.

Rob

2:14 PM

Maybe watch monsters inc for inspiration then; if it's a childs fears you have the monster under the bed/in the cupboard/etc type stuff

BESW

I'd give them... Alertness +1, Fists +2, Investigation +1, Stealth +2.

@Rob Oh, I know what the kid's afraid of.

Everyone on the street, including him is a changeling. The kids aren't told until they're older, but this one boy has picked up that something is wrong and it has to do with kids being taken.

High Concept: Secret Child Guardian.

(I think someone with an eye toward mischief will have helped the kid cotton on, and misled him about what's actually happening.)

(Plot hook for next scenario!)

Simon Gill

@BESW Good plot hook :)

BESW

Yeah, having a panicky paranoid kid coming into his fey powers early seems a little manipulative for a first antagonist, but I think it makes sense.

Especially since I expect one of the PCs to be a teen in the same neighborhood, going through a similar process.

Simon Gill

@BESW Skills look good too.

BESW

That's a 4-Refresh build with a really really easy catch.

Hammers are easy to acquire. Are they obvious enough?

I think I want these gnomes to be a minor individual threat until someone picks up a baseball bat, at which point they become hilarious... provided they come one at a time.

Simon Gill

2:23 PM

@BESW I might expand it to heavy bludgeoning force.

BESW

@SimonGill "Hammer-like attacks"?

With wide adjudication on what's like a hammer.

Simon Gill

So, smashing them under a big rock or into a rock wall would work.

BESW

Eh, why not. Catch: Smashing.

Phil

blunt trauma?

BESW

GARDEN GNOME
Secret Child Guardian
Alertness average (+1), Fists fair (+2), Investigation average (+1), Stealth good (+3)
Diminutive Size [-1], Inhuman Toughness [-2] (easy catch: smashing) [+2], Claws (Venomous) [-2]
Physical OOOO

@OrigamiRobot Hi!

Phil

2:28 PM

looks good to me

OrigamiRobot

@BESW Hello

Simon Gill

I'd be happy throwing a mob of those at a group.

BESW

@SimonGill What happens if a PC gets hit with Venomous more than once?

Phil

add in some scene aspects that can smash them to pieces :)

BESW

a) twice by the same gnome?
b) once each by two different gnomes?

Simon Gill

2:30 PM

Good question - you should ask that properly.

BESW

@Phil Upper-middle-class suburbia. There will be smashables.

OrigamiRobot

@BESW What system is this?

BESW

@OrigamiRobot The FATE system. Specifically the Dresden Files RPG.

OrigamiRobot

Ah, I know nothing about that. A coworker is thinking of getting a game started.

BESW

I've never run it before, so Simon's helping me get the hang of making NPCs.

Simon Gill

2:32 PM

Actually - they could probably do with a Hide In Plain Sight power too.

BESW

@OrigamiRobot It looks very exciting for a narrative-oriented GM like myself, especially if your players are interested in improv RP.

OrigamiRobot

I'm afraid I might get into the mindset of "THIS ISN'T [FAMILIAR SYSTEM]! I HATE IT!"

BESW

@SimonGill Is there a premade power for that?

Simon Gill

@BESW I would say that it doesn't stack. They have one Poisoned aspect, but track the difficulty - and if a new attack is higher than the current one, then the difficulty is set to the higher.

BESW

All I can find is Cloak of Shadows, which requires darkness.

@OrigamiRobot I hear ya. It took my group a few years to even TRY 4e, but when we did we discovered it chafed in less raw areas than 3.5.

Now I'm ready to move on, and my players are willing to come along with into FATE.

Simon Gill

2:37 PM

@BESW Glamours - Seemings (page 166) should do the job.

BESW

Looking forward to a system that enables the players to participate more in world-building.

OrigamiRobot

@BESW My system of choice is GURPS.

Phil

That's quite crunchy isnt it?

BESW

@SimonGill Not minor veils?

@Phil Very!

Phil

I find Savage Worlds is about as crunchy as I like

Simon Gill

2:39 PM

@BESW I'm thinking of when they stand still, they seem to just be a standard garden gnome.

BESW

With the right modules you can crunch nearly anything in GURPS. It's very granular.

OrigamiRobot

@BESW A blessing and a curse.

BESW

@SimonGill Or a toaster...

May I rule that they can use Stealth for Glamours, instead of Discipline or Deceit?

Simon Gill

@BESW But that doesn't end up with the horror movie scenes of increasing numbers of garden gnomes standing in gardens that nobody bought.

BESW

@SimonGill [grin]

Suddenly I'm getting Weeping Angel vibes.

Simon Gill

2:41 PM

@BESW Go for it. It's making the game better - so it follows the Golden Rule :)

BESW

@SimonGill How does it make the game better?

Ahah.

Simon Gill

@BESW You know what you want to accomplish, it's cool, and the mechanics are balanced against similar powers.

BESW

yeah, I'm going to love being able to say to my players "Tell me what you want to attempt, and we'll figure out what mechanics to use."

GARDEN GNOME
Secret Child Guardian
Alertness average (+1), Fists fair (+2), Investigation average (+1), Stealth good (+3)
Diminutive Size [-1], Inhuman Toughness [-2] (catch: smashing) [+2], Claws (Venomous) [-2], Glamours (seemings, can use Stealth for opposed efforts) [-2]
Physical OOOO
It's just a little red-capped plaster garden gnome... with a mouthful of needle-sharp teeth.

OrigamiRobot

@BESW Sounds like GURPS. Just keep Occam's Razor in mind.

BESW

@OrigamiRobot As a general rule in FATE, the answer is to figure out which opposing skills should be rolled by the parties involved, or whether it's more reasonable to just spend a FATE point and Make It So.

OrigamiRobot

2:48 PM

@BESW Yea, there are rules in GURPS for spending character points to influence rolls. Something like spend 2 points to turn a critical failure into a normal failure, spend 1 point to turn a failure into a success. We rarely do that though.

BESW

@OrigamiRobot FATE points are integral to the system. They represent your ability to use the traits of your character and your surroundings to your advantage, and you get more when your character's traits are used against his advantage, to further the story.

OrigamiRobot

@BESW My coworker has told me a little bit about it.

BESW

Hah! I made a DFRPG NPC! [dances]

Simon Gill

@BESW Congrats :D

BESW

Thank you, @SimonGill, @Phil, @Rob, @OrigamiRobot.

OrigamiRobot

2:52 PM

I HELPED! (apparently)

BESW

@OrigamiRobot People usually do better work when they have sounding boards. I know it's true in my case.

So having you listening is a positive contribution.

OrigamiRobot

I take all credit for you success, whether I deserve it or not.

BESW

@OrigamiRobot The Fairy Nuff purses her lips thoughtfully.

@SimonGill A gnome isn't going to take consequences, right? Something of that threat level with so little individual significance is just going to take stress on the nose.

Rob

I have assisted in the creation of a demonic garden gnome. I consider today a success.

Simon Gill

@BESW FAceless NPCs don't. They take stress and then fall over.

Realistically, low-threat NPCs like that are speedbumps.

BESW

2:58 PM

Excellent.

And enough gnomes together should make for a roadblock.

(The kind you can smash through.)

I can see a caster deciding to nuke the zone.

OrigamiRobot

Overkill is the best part of RPGs.

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