@KRyan Agreed. The bus lines across the country have little incentive to treat their passengers with any amount of common dignity, it's a wonder they haven't had the pants sued off of them

@KRyan Combat advantage is a 4e term, but this guy isn't using it that way.

@BESW oh? I wouldn't really know, I've never really played 4e

statted up a couple of characters for PbPs, but those died before we even saw combat

@KRyan Well, the first time he uses it is accurate; CA is granted by flanking, so he's moving into a flanking position with an ally to get CA.

one was a Psion|Wizard and the other was a straight Wizard

But then "is it leaving the square or leaving or leaving his reach that gives him combat advantage" seems to be using "combat advantage" to mean "getting an opportunity attack." So.... [shrug]

no idea

At any rate, if it's 4e the answer is clear and simple.

the rules for 3.5 movement/provoking are reasonably simple too

actually, I suspect it's the same rule for both

I'm putting together an answer in anticipation of it being 4e.

> Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide. [PHB 290, Rules Compendium 246, and DDI Online Compendium]

moving out of a threatened square provokes, but only once per movement (so moving through multiple threatened squares does not provoke repeatedly

I always found it weird that 4e focuses so much on forced movement but doesn't allow forced movement to trigger things that normal movement would

I mean, I guess I get that it was tried and found to be overpowered

but I feel like synergizing between players by creating dangerous zones and moving enemies into them is a good thing for the game

Based on the astonishing ease with which you can force movement in 4e, it'd easily allow everyone in the party to get a free attack on the target each turn.

@KRyan Yes, that works. But that's not opportunity attacks.

@BESW well, I feel like threatened areas count as dangerous zones for that purpose

but I was under the impression that forced movement into zones didn't cause damage for some reason?

Depends on the zone, but often it'll be a "starts turn in zone" effect, so while the forced movement itself doesn't trigger the zone.... it's the same smell.

Zone is a specific kind of beast in 4e (it's a very exact-terminology-heavy system).

There is one way in 4e to make that "drag them around and provoke your friends' OAs" strategy work: dominate 'em and make em stroll past your buddies.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Do you think the terminology in this question justifies assuming the 4e tag and editing it in accordingly?

urrrgh?

is ... 6:30

The Fairy Nuff says you signed on, so you're on the clock. [whipcrack]

.....

right, so...

I dunno, feels ... could easily be a 3.5

oh, CA

The use of the phrase "combat advantage" inclines @KRyan to think it's 4e.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I dunno, the phrase "combat advantage" is not used in 3.5

yeah, is 4e

The misuse of the phrase makes me wibbly.

OA and CA is 4e.

@BESW ?

That last sentence seems to use CA to mean "can make an OA."

But yes, given the abundance of 4e terms, it's probably 4e.

Kosher to tag and answer?

@BESW meh. Sure.

it seems weird to me that we have combat-advantage and opportunity-attack; there are similar concepts in many RPGs, but those are specifically the 4e terms for them

Okay, now it's actually a good question that I've seen confusion about in my own group.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Thanks for the early-morning sanction.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton: I don't have any questions, difficulties, or complaints for you; just wishing you a good morning, as much as such a thing can be

@KRyan roight.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton That, too.

Hmm. I wonder if there's any learning to be gleaned from analysing whether more people begin their SE experience asking a question, or giving an answer.

bloody jet lag

@BrianBallsun-Stanton yeah, hate that

used to live and go to school on opposite sides of North America; 4-6 times a year I was crossing three time zones and it was not fun

I seem to recall your trip being longer than that

so, my empathy

yes

@KRyan 14 hour time change and 20-22 hour travel time between college and home.

10 hr difference

I've uh

thingy

@BESW yowch

@BrianBallsun-Stanton With the words not having and the lack of the think?

basically it's made it that I get up before dawn

and it's close enough to the day/night cycle that it hasn't reset.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton hmm, I've never been 10 time zones from home. been 5 time zones east and 6 time zones west

@KRyan oh, and now I'm in a different TZ then when I started

so yeah, my body is just returning "WTF" when asked what time it is

@BrianBallsun-Stanton fun!

to be fair, lots of programs do that too

@KRyan yep

steampunkmagazine.com/2013/01/art-guns-a-ready/…

Once FATE Core launches publicly, I'm probably gonna be asking a lot of questions about how to integrate its new ideas with the DFRPG.

fun

okay, now to go head over to GIS and put on my n00b hat.

I'm not sure I understand what "day off" means

@BrianBallsun-Stanton good luck

right

@Ravn Sounds like something the chat might be able to handle better than a Q&A, though I imagine a good question or two might come from it.

Ah, cause and effect are rarely so clear.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I'm pretty sure you don't at this point :P

Hrm. What are ways that a Lovecraftian incursion (4e Far Realm) of awesome power might be repulsed?

I'm looking for something beyond simple fighting to add to my "tentacles descending from the clouds" climax.

Nobilis has Flower Rituals.

The Exalted setting uses humanity itself as a bulwark against the outer-chaos.

@SimonGill Which is...?

@BESW Not very well described... the language of flowers is a deep one in the setting and somehow doing stuff with flowers means that you can repulse beachheads from the outer beings.

Let's see... if I'd had more time I could've set something up, but I'm left with either pulling something out of thin air or trying to pretend something from earlier was intended to be a setup.

Exalted is much more interesting though - when unshaped beings from beyond the world do appear in Creation (which is naturally toxic to them anyway), they can be fought back with Reality Engines. Gigantic magical artifacts that resonate with reality.

Go for the call-back. Any loose plot threads that you could twist into being useful?

Not sure. Trying to cast my brain back...

Nothing that comes to mind. There's some stuff I could maybe dredge up and say wasn't concluded, but none of it seems really useful.

The worldwalls are thinning, being pried open from the other side by the Far Realm after they were first weakened by the Devourer.

There are mirrorfolk running around aiding the Far Realm on this side; they're corrupted and transformed tieflings.

There's a ravaged nation of halforcs that is beginning to regain a glimmer of its former glory thanks to a retired PC who acted as the king's advisor.

One of the PCs is an immortal kobold who is slowly becoming increasingly dragonlike.

@BESW You could bring across that idea of stability being anti-thetical to beings from beyond.

@BESW Are there any missing dragon subraces?

@SimonGill No, we're in a draconic-race-heavy environment.

I like the 'reality' thing.

Hmmmmm. The city this is going down in will have an enclave of a family dedicated to manipulating the elements. One of the PCs is defected minor member of that House.

@BESW Pity. I was going to suggest that the kobold complete a ritual to become a full dragon of a type that had died out/been killed.

There's the Living Gate too. Wasn't that suppose to keep the Far Realm at bay?

@SimonGill The player wants to stay a kobold, just be the tallest, most honorable and dragony kobold with the best posture ever.

@BESW Good goal!

He's going to stop growing 1/2 inch short of gaining a size category.

@SimonGill Looking up the Living Gate now.

@BESW The key thing about the reality idea is that its all about creating predictable patterns. Wars are one of the things that weaken the edges and let the chaos in.

@BESW I may be misremembering the name of it - but it's the origin of Psionics.

Yeah, I remember it generally.

I would like to do something with the goddess Nusemnee. She's played a minor role in helping the players help themselves.

@BESW What's her portfolio again?

Okay, Living Gate was guarded by a thing neither god nor primordial but of both. It was killed by the Nameless God, and the Gate was shattered. It became the shardminds.

Heroism and Redemption.

• It is never too late to seek redemption.
• True heroism does not come from good deeds. It comes from doing good when it matters.
• Nobody is perfect. Those who seek to be perfect will fail. It is not a shame to fail, and it is not a waste to try.
• Open your heart to possibilities. Never give up hope.

Is the ending of the Far Realm threat the end of the campaign?

Very nearly.

There's one final fight afterward.

You could almost do an in-the-belly-of-the-beast fight.

The very act of learning and practicing the psionic arts is considered a defense against the Far Realm...

I've definitely written myself into a corner.

Okay, psionics. Reality. Hope. Doing good when it matters.

Clearly I need to build a MIND RAY.

[face/palm] Azathoth gets beaten by the Care Bear Stare and/or the Elements of Harmony.

I like it. But how can I sell it?

I am very very tempted to just tell the players "You're epic, in a city that specializes in the most creative and lethal warfare in the world. You figure out how to repel the alien god."

@tymbark Hi!

@BESW yeah, that's a hard one ...

when players seem at a loss for strategy

@C.Ross Yeah. I'm wondering if I can somehow use it as an opportunity to help transition into FATE-type thinking, but I don't think it's a good idea.

@lollancf37 Hello!

@BESW Hello :-)

I've seen written RPG so I came to have a look

If there's anything you'd like to chat about or clarify, we can be pretty chatty. Until then, you're quite welcome to just pull up a seat.

@BESW meh, some people have the same problem in FATE

I think the advantage in FATE is you have the compels as a mechanism to move the story around

@C.Ross My players are usually very well able to improv their way out of anything I put in front of them.... provided I have given them a clear enough sense of the starting position.

So, I think my best strategy is to be nimble on my brain next session. We're going to be doing a massive RP encounter negotiating with the city leaders, and I'll keep my ears open for opportunities to drop hints about a) ranged telepathy projects; b) the potential for redemption in any of the NPCs present (note to self, include lieutenants in meeting?); c) psionic or emotional projects...

@BESW ok

Just give them a lot of junk to play with.

An amusing recurring quirk of my campaigns is that my players are usually right in thinking that I've included a minor element for a good reason. This means they frequently leap to astonishing conclusions that I would never have come up with, and I simply pretend I meant that to be what the stuff was about.

@BESW yeah, that's something I struggled with in the past, the accidental red herring

@BESW Sorry, was on a long phone call.

I do one of two things now, like you, run with it and make it important b/c the players want it to be, or if I don't have the mental agility simply say "This is not the plot element you're looking for; this is color."

@BESW Might be something to ask during the week... see if anybody has any ideas for what they think might work.

I'm really liking the idea of some Turathi madman building a Despair Cannon that the party reverses the polarity on.

@JeorMattan Yawp!

@BESW Disco Ray! (The long lost foster brother of Disco Stu)

Reality Engine theorizing (may be useful) : forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64993

Ah, cool.

Warning: may also be very silly.

@SimonGill 13 posts in: ponies.

back in a bit

@BESW spot check succeeded!

Hi, guys.

What's new?

Not really much, except that I'm finally letting my Deathwatch campaign go.

WH4k?

yep

its "Shoot first, ask later" branch

It's always a shame when a campaign fades away with potential unfulfilled.

yes, but I can't really say that about the campaign in question

there probably could be more to it, but I'm getting tired of space marines.

Heh.

I've had a few campaigns fall to my not building something the group dynamic would buy into.

Nine! Nine users! Ah, ah, ah!

@JonathanHobbs Careful, I understand that can get addictive.

[waits on the edge of his seat for a tenth]

@JonathanHobbs It's a bit unlikely...

It's feast or famine with questions I feel qualified to answer!

@BESW Hehe

@Tynam While I'd agree in concept with the answer of 'as soon as they think about interacting with the hostage let them know', It really depends on the type of game that you're playing. That's why I like the fact that they have the game creation system in Fate core, because all games aren't the same. My players love the mystery aspect, and being surprised. Does that mean that we aren't playing Fate nor the DFRPG? I don't think so.

While we don't play it like D&D, i.e. they need to make skill rolls, I let them shape the narrative from the point that they see the hostage, with no thought for story in mind. Whether there is a trap is a surprise to all of us, based on how the narrative goes. More of an Apocalypse World way of handling the story. That way there are mysteries, and they lurk inside of all of our heads, rather than everything being laid out before hand.

@BESW I totally agree with that statement!

@wraith808 I think the point here is that when you are dealing with something, you get all the immediate info. The existence of a trap could indicate how you the GM thinks the kidnappers will act.

@SimonGill And shapes the story. I've been playing DFRPG wholly player facing. I make rolls only in the end when they meet the big bad. Other than that, I compel only. I let them move the story along. In AW, the GM is explicitly told not to plan, and not to have preconceived notions. I'm trying to stick to that in DFRPG, and it's working out very well, and we've gone some places that I wouldn't have even thought about by making it more player driven.

The tack that I'm taking- if you ask me if something is there, I'll say no. You need to tell me, and drive the story. That seems to make them use the scene and the aspects and their own aspects more.

@wraith808 That's certainly a very valid way to approach it (and sounds interesting).

That way, we use the skills that the PCs want, and engage in exactly the activity they want. From that I've found that they like the action parts, but not necessarily in an action way- they want to use their heads. I'd not have found that out as easily if I pre-made the way that things were to go.

@SimonGill But - that wouldn't be valid for some groups. So I think that's one of the great things about Fate... it supports a wide range of ways to play.

@wraith808 Absolutely.

No matter what though, they do all support increased player agency compared to many other games.

Have to taken a look at the new Fate core rules? I'm directing everyone I can to check it out... the changes that they've made are pretty awesome.

@SimonGill Totally agreed.

@wraith808 I have - I was waiting for the Kickstarter to open and got in time to get a signed copy + dice :)

@SimonGill That's cool. :) I was already fortunate enough to get the dice when they were making them. But signage is cool :) I am hoping that I can scrape together enough for a consultation before it's over. But not looking good with the stupid tax changes and the hit to the check. sigh

@BESW It really is a feast for you at the moment.

@wraith808 Yeah, a crazy financial world isn't great. At least you've had some overall growth over the last few years though.

@SimonGill That's true, and I'm always thankful to just be working :)

@BESW - I really like your profile. I might have to use some of your ideas!

I'm always amazed at the speed at which some people accrue reputation. I'm not nearly so prolific or knowledgeable about systems!

It does help when you have lots of knowledge about popular subjects.

I seem to get most of my rep from saying "Ignore the rules, if it makes for interesting plot, do it. Here's some example of stories that do it well."

Oh I was just saying I was amazed... it's not a big deal for me. I just like reading the questions and answers, and helping when I can. I'm sure when we're able to start gaming again, I'll have more questions, so it's pretty much paying it forward. :)

@wraith808 And I'm still confused about it :P I'm usually a bit of a rules lawyer (another reason FATE is great - the rules are just a structure).

@SimonGill Confused about the reputation? It's an imperfect system, especially since you can't really influence if people vote well. But it seems to work well enough. :)

@wraith808 Confused why my best answers are the kind I wouldn't normally give.

@SimonGill I think it's that whole you can't influence if people vote well bit. The examples probably shore up your answers well, however, which make people more likely to vote for them. More effort in the answer and all.

@wraith808 That could well be it.

Oh well... it's been good talking to you. Going to enjoy my day off playing a game :)

@wraith808 That sounds like a fantastic idea!

See you around!

@wraith808 My... profile? Thank you. Anything in particular?

I don't think I or my players will be able to break the "GM knows the world" habit very quickly, but I'm definitely looking forward to having my players contribute to the world as much as they can.

@Phill.Zitt Hi!

@BESW Hi Back.

spent the past two minutes looking for the stupid text box. Found it!

@Phill.Zitt [success chime]

Yay, MySQL works. Finally... damn you quotes.

Heh.

Yet again, "Mysql" sounds like an unfathomable Lovecraftian being.

hehe.

I would not want to meet it if it started poking it's tendril's from Plato's realm of ideals.

But now the media player in the living room is using a database on my desktop so watched state is all synced up. And the living room media player doesn't look like it's crawling through broken glass trying to update the list of videos.

Heh.

We.... plug my laptop into the TV if we want to watch Netflix?

I... use my TV as a third monitor to play Netflix or media?

@BESW yeah, it's a bit more complex in this house :P

@SimonGill I think spending the 80s and 90s unable to take utilities for granted has coloured my approach to frivolous tech.

@BESW heh... the coal shed was before I remember.

(Also acquiring tech on Guam is haphazard at best.)

@BESW I bet.

From my friends in the IP business, I'm given to understand that techs who learned their trade out here have many more repair skills than the average mainland tech, and are versed in a wider range of older systems.

Because we can't just order up a new part at the drop of a hat, so we use up and make do.

@BESW That's definitely a good skill. They'd probably be in demand on the mainland.

Like COBOL programmers. Somehow that language is still undead after 30 years.

[snerk] One of my CP friends in college got a job upgrading a major government computer database; they only upgrade it every ten years, which is just enough for everyone who remembers the previous upgrade to have moved out of the facility.

@BESW A 10 year release cycle? Wow... and I thought the 6 monthly release cycles were long.

@SimonGill Yeah... I think it's the "if it's not broke, don't touch it" mentality, combined with government reluctance to spend money on non-visibles. So they upgrade it when it's no longer compatible with anyone else.

@BESW There's good arguments for doing it more, it might cost more in the short term, but it costs less over time.

@SimonGill I'm well familiar with that argument, and the fact that the limited terms of government positions negate it entirely.

If long-term expenditure is long enough term that the person who supported it won't be there to take credit, it's not a factor in the decision.

@BESW Yeah, there are reasons it can't be done.

@BESW sigh yeah...

@SimonGill I actually explained this to Hobbs as part of his worldbuilding a few week ago.

He's got a city whose very existence is dependent on the functioning of a massive dwarf-made underground filtration system, but the government is slowly failing to keep up day-to-day repairs.

(We've been having a lot of fun building a fantasy world that's firmly based in real-world science and sociology.)

"Sure, the volcanic hot springs are in a place they couldn't scientifically be, but they're there and so we can treat them as normal hot springs. Let's have entirely non-magical lethal outgassing, shall we?"

@BESW Hehe, that does sound like a lot of fun :)

It's produced some really great visuals.

There's a city at the edge of the hot springs. They've built a great wall of fire (entirely mundane) to burn off the lethal gasses before it reaches the city and spills out over the plain beyond. They use the charcoal from the fire in the underground filtration plants, to purify the springwater before it joins the rivers that water the plain.

@BESW Interesting solution.

Anybody protesting that it's doing something bad?

@SimonGill Not at all. The plains below were unlivable before the city.

...the elves do have some problems with all the wood being cut for the fires...

The city has a vibrant ceramics community, using the mineral-rich mud from the hot springs, which informs their architecture and trade.

And between the giant fire keeping them alive and providing the charcoal to purify the water they drink, and their ceramic-based economy, they've developed a unique Pelor-derivative religion inspired by Zoroastrian fire-worship.

@BESW I've always thought, there's not enough Zoroastrianism in modern RPGs.

@SimonGill I contain agreement.

He's got two dwarven cities, one Imperial Russian and the other Soviet Russian.

His goblins are probably going to be Mongols after the model of Genghis Khan, which I love and am going to steal.

@BESW I had similar ideas about breaking down different civilisations to races based on Iron Age times.

(Really really strict laws about conduct, hierarchies, and hygiene. The most common punishment for violating them is death. And only a very few of the Khan's closest advisors are allowed to see the full list of laws; everyone else just has a partial list but can be punished for breaking any law.)

I personally use Italian Renaissance city-states as my model for traditional 3.5 type governments, and the Islamic Empires are my go-to model for LG religious rule.

I've also used the Iroquois Nations a couple of times, especially for catfolk tribal alliances.

In case you can't tell, I generally avoid British Isles traditions like the plague. Too much fantasy baggage and conflation; if I use the generic mishmash there's no coherence, and if I try to actually separate out an individual tradition or culture everyone gets confused.

@BESW Hell,I get confused, and I live here!

@BESW Another sign that there's always something more interesting out there in the world.

I'll happily use the physical trappings, like menhirs and tables and chalk hill figures.

But I really like dropping in things people don't usually think about: bog mummies make for great zombies.