TRPG General Chat - 2021-12-08

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12:15 AM

Clean-Up Crew by WuDeRPG. Soul Detectives can do amazing things, but magic alone can't help them. Sometimes they need a Team that cleans up the mess! You are a Cleaner, part of the Clean-Up Crew and you are the ones they call when things get messy.

"9 best tabletop RPG systems to hack into a custom game" article by Kyle Tam for Dicebreaker. SRDs allow players to use an existing set of rules as the basis for their own RPG.

Upcoming Anthology: HULL BREACH Vol. 1 by Ian Yusem. A sci-fi horror anthology digest for the Mothership RPG. (warning: flashing lights) A manifest of new, eclectic terrors from 20 independent authors. Follow the Kickstarter here.

@JoelHarmon Not every NLC is a patron. There's families and investors and volunteers and so on.

12:30 AM

It's a game that focuses on the people the librarians visit on their route, but is also about how the librarians create a bridge between isolated groups and their larger communities.

1 hour later…

1:57 AM

I initially removed both links, but then re-inserted the first one rpg.stackexchange.com/q/193472/44723 - I'm uncertain whether it should remain.

And then Thomas was faster editing it out, hm.

@ThomasMarkov ^

@Akixkisu I can’t say the first one is piracy since it’s not the actual artificer class lol

I think it’s fine, and it gives the necessary context for the question.

@ThomasMarkov It replicates considerable parts of it verbatim.

@Akixkisu Just the vanilla elements that are part of every dnd class.

The class features are all unique.

AncientSwordRage

> Something between 2013 and 2014 compelled @Wizards_DnD to rewrite the Adventuring Day section from the playtest - which was good, accurate advice - into the version that was published - which is vague and inaccurate and causes confusion in the community to this day.

Twitter thread and deep dive into what changed during play testing D&D 5E

@ThomasMarkov It also replicates Tool Expertise and a few other features.

For me it is on the edge, I suppose.

But it also features a tremendous amount of homebrew content that is clearly at the core of the site.

I read the wiki, and it seems fine overall.

Surprisingly the artificer homebrew didn't seem to make it into any of the player's hands during any of the campaigns.

AncientSwordRage

2:20 AM

> Meet the Cleveland Browns players who tackle opponents for work—and owlbears in Dungeons & Dragons for fun.

Twitter link

2:37 AM

It would be nice if one person upvotes this, so the user can join chat rpg.stackexchange.com/q/193467/44723

3:01 AM

@AncientSwordRage [ticks off notes on 4e qualities]

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu seems upvoteworthy, so I did

@BESW it feels like it'd be a much better game....

I was so hoping to combine Quick Toss and Maneuvering Strike, but then I read this in the 'small print':

Like, damage on a miss. Very core to a lot of 4e balancing of limited-use abilities so you'd never feel like they were totally wasted.

AncientSwordRage

> You can use only one maneuver per attack.

> a Familiar with a bespoke in-built statblock that you can even customize with different features

Oh hey that's how 4e treated all its summons and companions.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW independently I've been thinking of doing that myself as home brew

3:07 AM

One of the magical things that in-built stat blocks do, is reduce the need for inter-feature balancing.

"Your crow does this" and "their crow does that" means you don't have to somehow figure out a single crow statblock which is good for both classes and as a stand-alone creature.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW mmhmm

> Two-Weapon Fighter is a whole specialty and I think that’s correct, choosing to be dual-wielding kinda needs to be a meaty part of your character options.

Helloooo 4e.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov the original question was going to be more interesting, but I figured it out and ended up not wanting to self answer

Hilariously the published "Adventuring Day" paragraph is much MORE reminiscent of 4e than the playtest version, just without any of the things which made it work in 4e.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW yeah it's hecking weird!

in Board and Card Games, 38 mins ago, by Attila

I have a deck of (52) cards where the cards have no suits and besides unique artwork on each of them they are differentiated by numbers from 1 to 52 (backside is unique as well, but let's ignore that and assume standard back).

What games can be played with this deck? I am looking for ones that use all the cards (as opposed to a subset). Please include links/references to the rules.

I have found a list of games that can be played with numbered cards on BGG, but most either require more cards (including ones numbered above 52) or would not use the whole deck.

Can anybody help that BCG user?

3:36 AM

There are games which use illustrations as narrative prompts.

Also anything that rolls a d52, I guess?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW Mysterium maybe?

Apr 26 '20 at 22:46, by BESW

What Artistry This Wilderness by Sealed Library is a simple travel encounter subsystem for fantasy RPGs. It's a celebration of landscapes and our art depicting them.

I think the best path to finding games would be to look for tarot-based games which focus on the illustrations rather than the values and suits.

Mar 6 '20 at 2:14, by BESW

Imaginarium by momatoes is a cooperative storymaking game for 2 to 9 players, where you build a story through the revelations of the major arcana. Taste the storytelling secrets of tarot through a sandbox RPG that isn't afraid to throw twists at you. Easy setup, no-holds-barred setting creation, freedom to build your story...if the tarot cards are amenable to your twisted plans.

I think Imaginarium is one of those games, but I haven't read it myself.

Really a lot depends on the kind of illustrations the person's deck has.

Hot RPG Questions

3:57 AM

4

Q: Does Mislead automatically hide the spellcaster?

When you cast Mislead, you become invisible while an image appears where you were standing. Invisibility causes you to be impossible to see without magical means, but it does not cause you to be hidden. The spell description for Mislead does not state that you are hidden. However, it would not...

dnd-5e spells stealth invisibility

@HotRPGQuestions I feel like a spell called mislead should get people lost.

4:19 AM

Ok... so; a N/E Half-orc Pact of the Blade Warlock, with the Great Old One Patron; named Ganondorf

2 hours later…

Hot RPG Questions

6:02 AM

3

Q: Is this homebrew magic item that lets you add your Wisdom modifier to your AC (while attuned) balanced as a rare magic item?

I recently had an idea for a new item in 5e. This item is a cloak that lets you add your Wisdom modifier to your AC (requires attunement). I was thinking of making it a rare magic item, and I was looking for advice. Is this item overpowered as a rare? Properly balanced? Underpowered? If it is ove...

dnd-5e magic-items balance homebrew-review armor-class

1 hour later…

PD - whee - whim - wish

7:17 AM

Since I'm not sure it is worth bringing up on Meta as I'm hopped up on caffeine and not in a place to make good judgments:

4th Edition D&D has been torn down by Wizards of the Coast, since 5th Edition has been the real prime product they want you to buy for several years.
Several links from good answers on the site are to dead pages.
I've replaced those links with Wizards of the Coast's product listings on OneBookShelf (DriveThruRPG), on one answer, as well as adjusted wording here and there that I feel no longer applies (such as removing references to DDI).

2

Updating dead links is encouraged, but going on an updating spree is not.

PD - whee - whim - wish

7:32 AM

Any criticism on this edit? Things I should keep in mind going forward?

2 hours later…

10:00 AM

@PD-whee-whim-wish I don't agree the removal of the magazine part, it might just need pointers to numbers - archive org has many

PD - whee - whim - wish

Is this said as a former DDI subscriber?

no, but you can pooint to like... "The Dragon magazine years of X to Y are for 4th ed"

or something

PD - whee - whim - wish

The question, as phrased in the title, is, "What set of books makes a complete starter set for 4e?" Since buying individual issues of Dragon magazine is getting really into the weeds, and its only value is supplemental content, I think there's no case for keeping it in the answer. If DDI's tools for creating characters and encounters were still available, I'd mention those, but they seem to not be.

10:26 AM

The title is not the full question, which in this case specifically asks

> presumably buying either the 4 book set or essentials will be enough to get my game on. Would there be something 'lacking' though? Would I be missing character types, for instance, as I've seen that the splatbook strategy is still in effect?

And yes absolutely some of the most fun and creative character specialties are in the magazines.

But the original answer doesn't seem to mention the magazines either, soooo.

AncientSwordRage

I think completely removing the paragraph about the magazines is too far. We'd still be good to note it was out of data information though.

> Bryant - Last seen more than 10 years ago

@PD-whee-whim-wish @BESW, I'd be tempted to rollback the edit, and make a new post (possibly CW, possibly not) flagging it as an update of Bryant's, and maybe try and encourage others to upvote yours so it floats to the top

11:08 AM

@AncientSwordRage I don't see the mention of magazines that people are talking about.

The removed paragraph talks about DDI, which we know includes the magazines, but the closest it comes to mentioning them is "daily articles" which... doesn't correspond to anything in my experience of DDI?

Otherwise the magazines fall under "every source" which is still not a mention of the magazines?

Maybe I'm missing something but in case I'm glancing past part of it I've also done word searches for "mag" and "dungeon" and "dragon" and "issue" and got nothing that seems relephant.

I do think the magazines should be mentioned! I just don't see that they ever were.

AncientSwordRage

11:40 AM

@BESW ahh right, I just put the two together in my head

Still, I feel like only the OP should be cutting out outdated info in a post

Yeah, there’s a big difference between updating broken links and removing information.

A new answer that’s current would be a great addition.

PD - whee - whim - wish

11:59 AM

Well, do as you will about the situation. I return to my seasons-long slumber.

AncientSwordRage

12:15 PM

@PD-whee-whim-wish I'm going to edit that info back in I think

Or rollback?

@ room, thoughts?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage I am not familiar enough with the publication context to know which of the two is better. Either should probably work.

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I mean to say, should I undelete the paragraph, or rollback the whole edit?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Well you want to retain the link changes, but revert the paragraph loss, right? I guess whichever is more convenient to you as an editor.

AncientSwordRage

12:31 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica my reasoning to revert the lot is that the changes go together, but rather than excising a paragraph, we should flag it as outdated ... but even that seems too much

my preference is to create a new updated answer, but if there a post that 90% of the way there with only an outdated message about DDI then it seems less worthwhile

12:42 PM

@PD-whee-whim-wish My belated thoughts are that (a) of course, go ahead and update/improve links in a question you came across, (b) I agree with BESW that a one-user updating spree (hundreds of questions in a matter of days/weeks, lets say?) isn't recommended, but also that (c) an updating project, if you've the interest, is well worthwhile.

I don't think the fact that 4e is unsupported (and, presumably, played less) these days means we should abandon our content around it--we should still want this--if it exists on site--to be a good and useful resource for those who do come to it.

But if it's to be hundreds of posts, I suggest opening up a meta to describe the problem you see and the proposed solution. That way you can see whether any others have better ideas/resources, others may chime in and help, you won't get frequent questions/pushbacks to "pointless edits on old questions," &c.

AncientSwordRage

1:14 PM

@nitsua60 what're your thought on deleting outdated parts of anwers?

1:28 PM

@AncientSwordRage case-by-case, I guess? What makes it outdated? Rule change? Revision to question? Events in the real world?

Delete something, put in an editorial note suggesting this was useful but has been surpassed, probably other options that I'm not moving quickly enough to think of =)

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 see the edit in question ^

^ rpg.stackexchange.com/posts/1180/revisions edit in question.

Perfect summary of the new activity page: meta.stackexchange.com/a/372653/526695

1:55 PM

@Akixkisu My perfect summary of the summary: I hate it.

@ThomasMarkov "Unfortunately not a bug."

what the avernus? The question was asked 18 days ago but all these answers are in the last 24 hours

Okay theres some old answers.

Im confused though, Im just now seeing this

@ThomasMarkov it was a preview initially.

Ah.

Well, I hate it.

2:14 PM

Am I missing something on this edit?

@ThomasMarkov It is a bump edit.

Which is unusual for a question that already has more than 100 upvotes, you usually see this with questions that are just shy of meeting a treshold.

@Akixkisu Yeah, I could see bumping something if you're close to a badge (I may or may not have done that but always try to find a substantive edit to make)

2:32 PM

I wonder if the system would count it if I upvote their answer - I'm pretty sure it barred me from my downvotes affecting their questions.

@Akixkisu What?

@ThomasMarkov They post a lot of questions, many of which start out lq.

But why would the system prevent you from interactive with their posts?

i think it is the same idea behind the serial voting mechanism.

I can still click the buttons, I just don't think they count.

(I for instance don't lose any rep)

You dont lose rep for downvoting questions.

2:41 PM

@ThomasMarkov Neither do I lose rep when I downvote their answers.

Or maybe there is a delay?

Actually let me double-check.

If that is the case, that sounds like a bug.

Let me wait for a bit after downvoting.

It took the upvote on the most recent answer, so maybe I'm seeing ghosts and it is just a weird delay.

Anyway, I left a comment linking a couple meta posts about bumping.

It is, I now lost the rep 5 minutes after downvoting.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Akixkisu And an arm.

2:47 PM

It always displays the ¯ \ as ¯_(ツ)_/¯

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Have you tried escaping it? Does that not work?

3:16 PM

¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ should work

3:32 PM

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hot RPG Questions

3:45 PM

5

Q: Multiple Attack Penalty on the Trip Action

Since the Trip Action has the Attack Trait, it is subject to MAP (if you tried to Trip as your second action in a turn, your Athletics check would be at a -5). What about weapons that have both the Agile and the Trip Trait? There are some, most of them monk/"eastern" weapons, but also the sickle....

weapons pathfinder-2e trip

AncientSwordRage

4:25 PM

@ThomasMarkov flagged for moderators

@AncientSwordRage Probably not much else to be said besides my comment there.

AncientSwordRage

4:56 PM

@ThomasMarkov now we wait :D

@ThomasMarkov ah, memories. I got spam-banned for a table conversion edit for that answer and had to Trojan-horse it through with Mith :)

AncientSwordRage

5:35 PM

@bobble awesome you got that sorted

@Someone_Evil ¯\_¯\_(ツ)(ツ)_/¯ works for me

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Interesting how that gets trimmed from emojis...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

but Bobble's works.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Looks like a carriage return is the trick?

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast the first slash escapes the _

_italics_ → italics

also markdown (including the underscore) is disabled on multiline messages, see:
**Not bold**

3 hours later…

PD - whee - whim - wish

8:17 PM

I edited Dragon back in to the best of my ability

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: How does the silvery barbs spell interacts with advantage of enemy?

For example, consider the following situation: You cast a spell, that requires a saving throw, against a single target. Your spell DC is 14. The target has advantage on the saving throw against your spell, and the target rolls a 5 and a 15. You use your reaction to cast the silvery barbs spell o...

dnd-5e spells advantage-and-disadvantage

AncientSwordRage

8:40 PM

@PD-whee-whim-wish I guess it's better, but my point about this no longer being the original posters words stands, which makes me uncomfortable

2 hours later…

11:03 PM

@AncientSwordRage @PD-whee-whim-wish I got back the original phrasing and the 2021 update.

PD - whee - whim - wish

Thanks for the notification, I forgot I had a meta post ready to go

0

Q: How should dated references to Dungeons & Dragons Insider be handled?

Wizards of the Coast offered a subscription service, years ago, called Dungeons & Dragons Insider (DDI), which offered utility much like the current D&D Beyond, in that it provided tools and content for playing the Dungeons & Dragons game to anyone willing to pony up the cash. The DDI service has...

discussion dnd-4e

@PD-whee-whim-wish actually, that threw up a rather good stack question: from when till when did this thing exist at all?!

11:23 PM

@Trish That's gonna require an interesting dive into "exist," because there was an extended period of 5e during which DDI was available to people who were still paying their subscription, but it was impossible to start a subscription.

@BESW whooha, that would make a good thing for the answer. "You could get subscriptions from A to B, and subscriptions that were upheld existed till C" sounds like a good answer core

(And if you ever stopped paying you couldn't start again)

Basically they kept taking your money until Silverlight stopped working.

Today on rpg.se: we're asking the question "Does a thing exist if you can't buy it?"

2

"D&D Insider To Shut Down In January, Ending 4th Edition For Good" Dec 22, 2019 article by Patricio Kobek for The Gamer. The much-loved Dungeons & Dragons Insider will be shuttering its digital doors on January 1, 2020, ending formal support for the 4th Edition for good.

(Which also meant that you had to find a browser that'd still let you use Silverlight; it was officially unsupported by Edge, Chrome, and Firefox since 2017.)

And it progressively broke over time, because after 5e launched Wizards stopped maintaining it.

Every time a Silverlight protocol changed, something in DDI would break. This sometimes meant days of downtime while 4e was still actually Wizards' flagship project, much less after 5e became their priority.

Oh, and there was a non-Silverlight searchable database that you could use without a subscription, but without a subscription and functioning Silverlight all it did was let you know a thing existed and maybe what book it was in.

(If the thing was published in multiple books, the reference just said "multiple" and you had to get details inside the sub-gated Silverlight app)

@Someone_Evil Laugh in capitalism all you want, I'll laugh with you, but the DDI is what made 4e functionally playable for my group. We tried to go back once on a whim and without the DDI I, at least, found content access far too much of a chore for the playstyle I prefer.

And this was during the period when we could've still had the DDI if we'd never stopped the subscription.

AncientSwordRage

11:41 PM

@BESW that does look a lot like the start of a good answer

> What are things? We just don't know

So in the sense that it was available to new subscribers, it existed from 2007 to 2014, after which it was only available to legacy users and slowly lost features from lack of maintenance until being shuttered in 2019.

But I'm not gonna go look up sources and make an SE-compliant version of this, I've got better things to do than feed the content machine.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I can respect that

Separately, did Goliaths first appear in 4e?

@BESW I can imagine. There's a bunch of stuff for 5e that DDB is super useful for, and that's only gonna get worse with more releases

PD - whee - whim - wish

@AncientSwordRage I recall their printing in 3.5's main line book, Races of Stone.

And I was mostly trying to have fun with the words, and little more

PD - whee - whim - wish

11:45 PM

Not familiar with any earlier.

People are welcome to use my memories as a jumping-off point for Actual Research to make an answer.

@AncientSwordRage Yup, 3e at least.

And since we're on it, I do think death of digital services is a thing to be aware of, in all the different ways it looks and happens

Here's a blog post speculating that 3e Goliaths are inspired by an earlier BECMI/Mystara group called Stalwarts

@BESW That decline actually makes a good explanation for the answer.

@Trish Notable: Silverlight debuted in 2007 and was discontinued in 2019.

AncientSwordRage

11:48 PM

@PD-whee-whim-wish ahhh ok

@BESW Waaaait, was Silverlight made for just D&D? ;)

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil I remember gReader 😞

user image

I think it's a sign that Wizards was trying to do cutting-edge things with 4e but didn't have the capacity to follow through. You know, they were also planning the same online tabletop services that Wizards promised for Next when it was first announced.

But in both cases they couldn't do it in-house and wound up making Poor Choices about third-party partnerships.

With DDI they hitched up their cart to a horse that aged very poorly, and given the popular reception of 4e didn't have a lot of incentive to switch horses later on.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW thanks! That's super useful. I'm involving a Goliath in my character's background story, and I'm doing some reading around them to be conscious of any real world inspiration/connections

@BESW I wonder if that influenced them buying SpellTable

If we wanted to actually claim that Wizards copied World of Warcraft for 4e, the worst argument wouldn't be "waited to see how the fans fixed their problems and then did that themselves."

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