TRPG General Chat

Akixkisu

3:00 PM

@KorvinStarmast I think more so that they are of equal importance, but not of equal quality or value :)

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu I think Ive probably prefaced an answer by saying "this is not actually important".

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage If you can find me a useful definition of the term "American work culture" it would be helpful. That phrase smells a bit dubious to me.

Thomas Markov

@ThomasMarkov Yes, I did it here

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov I think that is valid in particular when the querent has some sort of misconception, but you offering the insight that describes/resolves ís important :)

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast it's one of those things I've only noticed, second hand, in contrast to working in the UK so I haven't got a handle on it or a good way of articulating myself

Thomas Markov

3:03 PM

Yeah, I dont mean to say that the question isnt important.

The thing there is that the answer is "you dont need to worry about this", not that it isnt an important question.

doppelgreener

Nice thing: Last week I ran a collaborative world-building session for my group. The players themselves created the world, its factions, locations, and important characters, for the setting we're going to play in. It went so well, and one of them has since taken the same method to another group which went and used it to create their own world too and enjoyed it. :')

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage In most states one can also sue for wrongful termination.

AncientSwordRage

But things like being told "Never discuss sports, religion, politics .... etc at work"... I think on workplace.se?

@KorvinStarmast only if an explanation is given though

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov yup :)

@doppelgreener Awesome that sounds like a great time.

AncientSwordRage

If I fire you because.. I dunno "Their mother was a hamster, and their father smelled of elderberries", then you have a case, but I was under the impression most places don't need to give notice/reason. If they keep quiet, i.e not given a reason, they can't be sued?

@doppelgreener that's an interesting angle

doppelgreener

3:07 PM

@KorvinStarmast i mean, would you consider that America doesn't have a specific work culture? or that it has too many to sum up as just one? I've noticed work culture differences between the UK and Australia, and both of those seem different to work culture in the USA, and I know they're different to work culture in Japan and in Papua New Guinea.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener does not a comment (voluntary) explaining the down vote cover that, or do you feel that it lacks the kind of oomph that you are thinking of?

AncientSwordRage

I wonder if (assuming we can't just scrap SE) supping up the comments section would help?

KorvinStarmast

@Akixkisu I guess we'll need to agree to disagree on that. And it's kinda subjective anyway, the value and / or importance of a given question

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Context you're missing: this follows on from discussion about how the Stack model itself is kind of broken and discussion is actually super important. I'm blue-sky evaluating how we could build a totally different system. There's no upvotes or downvotes in this design as I've described it yet.

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage IME, not necessarily so, based on some stuff that happened in a company I worked for 15 years ago ... man, has it been that long?

AncientSwordRage

3:09 PM

@KorvinStarmast it might just be that I've heard the horror stories

doppelgreener

brewing up the important features here, describing an implementation of those features here

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Yes, I do perceive it that way given the wide variation in style and workplace.

doppelgreener

@Akixkisu it was so fun and i'm so happy it was a hit

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener OK, Thx.

@AncientSwordRage There are plenty of those also. 😕

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I guess it comes down to how risk averse you are then? There might be some rare exceptions but I need to be given ~months of notice if I'm fired.

KorvinStarmast

3:12 PM

@doppelgreener FWIW, that looks like something for an actual work environment, not a bunch of volunteers.

AncientSwordRage

those two things (no notice, no reason required) sounds like a recipe for disaster

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage Even for cause? (like, dipping one's hand in to the till or consistent failure to meet standards?)

doppelgreener

i've done collaborative generation before. Our bubblegumshoe game featured it (because it's built in to bubblegumshoe), and one of my girlfriends is designing a collaborative world generation system for Cortex Prime which we've had some great results with. I basically took both of those, plus the system from Dresden Files RPG (2010), and knocked them together with hope and spit and something really nice came out of it.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast They tend not to be salaried jobs... and I think that's different. It's also common to have a probation period where you can be fired at short notice

True fact, I was once 'fired' before I'd joined a job

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage I left a job once with two hours to put my crap in a box and leave the office. I prevailed upon the supervisor to let me take as much time as I needed to leave notes on all the stuff I was working on for the guy who was gonna have it dumped into his lap. So I had 3 hours. 😛

doppelgreener

3:14 PM

@KorvinStarmast i mean ... volunteers already do all of those things on the entire stack network (in chat and mainsite) and on forums

AncientSwordRage

Them: Turn up whenever for the interview
Me: Turns up at 11
Them: You're fired for being late

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage OK, we many need to get into specifics. The three step example you give is kinda weird. And they may have been lying to you. That also happens.

@doppelgreener which is what chat is for, right? Workshopping stuff? (We do it here quite a bit)

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast Yes, though I think it is meaningful to make the distinction - that I don't consider importance and value as interchangeable terms for the sake of communication. A team sequenced the DNA in teeth to look at the strand of yersinia pestis - those teeth were of much greater value than some of the written sources to understand the Mediterranean plague.

But, it is equally as important to look at all of the written pieces or say the weight of coins that changed after the first plague wave hit Constantinople.

Thomas Markov

Would a “numbers” answer that just lists some potentially useful statistics about accepted answers be appropriate?

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast all of what DG mentioned is possible on SE, none of what DG mentioned is really fit for that purpose on SE (my interpretation though)

@KorvinStarmast The one just above yours? Yeah it was a small town job, and they were known for that sort of thing

doppelgreener

3:17 PM

@KorvinStarmast i'm not trying to fix the Stack. I'm just thinking about what the actual important bits are, discarding the broken bits of the Stack's Q&A model (like a stance of "no discussion!"), and seeing what kind of system could service the important requirements without broken bits.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener the "no discussion" rule is violated left, right, and center all over the network in comments. Aviation, History, SF, and Christianity to name but four that I go to a lot. It may be a formal norm, but the informal norms are much stronger.

doppelgreener

sure, it is

because it's actually a necessary part of the Q&A process, and so the Stack's philosophy of "no discussion!" is broken

I'm starting from an assumption that the Stack model is not adequate for purpose because too many built-in philosophies and features hamstring it for its function of getting peoples' questions answered and problems solved, even those that the Stack design thinks makes it better for those features

This is not a "rescue the Stack" plan

This is a blue-sky "what could we have instead?" exercise

The discussion about how the Stack is doing the job anyway actually is beside the point, because this conversation is not about the Stack

(except insofar as what the Stack does & doesn't do well, and what the people actually need, is significant for learning what is actually needed to solve problems and answer questions—for example, we know that discussion is important actually)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener I am not sure if I agree on your characterization of "no discussion" since comments are a valuable discussion tool for clarifying both the details of a question and the details of an answer. That is discussion that is formally advocated for.

But is it the only way to do something like this? Probably not.

BESW

@doppelgreener I should be in bed two hours ago, but maybe some time you could tell me what y'all are taking from DFRPG? I think it was the very first collaborative worldbulding system I ever used (not counting Dawn of Worlds) so my memories are colored by having nothing to compare it with at the time.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast baked in to the tour for every site is this line: “This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat.”

KorvinStarmast

3:22 PM

(And isn't each site's meta a bloody discussion forum by another name?)

@doppelgreener OK, that's hardly policy though once one gets into the nitty gritty. It's a warning to new users that the style of isn't what they are used to. I think there's a difference. It's aspirational in nature, but I'd not mind seeing that revised to be a bit less 2009-Jeff-Atwoodish in tone. Personal opinion.

(And it's not even true, given the chat rooms each site has ...)

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast I mean, basically this means the Stack's principles ("no chit-chat") don't work because obviously we need chit-chat to solve problems. And yet the design is still hostile to chit-chat. So why use this design?

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast no because on discussion forums you can go "Look how cute my cat is" and no matter how cute my cat is (and they're both hecking cute) that's going to get closed

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener What are you considering chit chat? Anything off topic posted under a question or an answer?

BESW

Every example of how the Stack permits discussion is an example of how the Stack does it only grudgingly and thus in an incomplete or misapplied way. Chat and meta are both afterthoughts tacked on without coherent integration into the structure of the site, and meta uses mainsite structures that are antithetical to the kind of conversations meta should be having. Comments are clunky, unthreaded, temporary, and get removed the instant they start to smell like actual conversation.

KorvinStarmast

As I dig into this conversation, I'll say that a core 'advertised' stack value proposition is High signal Low noise, and 'chit chat' (whatever the heck that is?) is noise rather than signal.

BESW

3:27 PM

Greener's imagining what might be possible in a world where a Q&A site is built from the ground up with the enthusiastic understanding that conversation is an integral part of the Q&A process.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Do you include in chit chat 'on topic' discussion that doesn't end up in an answer?

(because I don't)

AncientSwordRage

11 mins ago, by AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast all of what DG mentioned is possible on SE, none of what DG mentioned is really fit for that purpose on SE (my interpretation though)

@KorvinStarmast it's not really what we're discussing I think? It's what the site/culture of the site imposes and that varies from site to site and person to person

KorvinStarmast

As a point of calibration: I moderate a professional forum and frequently remove off topic material, or move it to another forum/sub forum. But that forum is not a stack, nothing like it.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast so as an example, moderators can move comments to chat, but that's more of a hack to facilitate one way the comments can be used to hash out a question/answer

KorvinStarmast

We also get complaints about moderation, of course we do, and which is discussed among the moderators in a private room that the rest don't have access to. There are I think about three dozen mods.

AncientSwordRage

3:31 PM

but it's not baked in

doppelgreener

Super short summary, do these phases:
• The group agrees on 2-3 broad world aspects.
• Taking turns (use Marvellous initiative), the players give each one an associated Face and Location which in some way represent it.
• Each player comes up with a Faction.
• Once all factions are laid out, the players take turns (Marvellous initiative) creating associated Faces and Locations.
• Create a line joining each Faction with each other Faction.
• Players take turns (Marvellous intiative) to defining relationships. To do that, pick a relationship that's not yet defined. Choose a relationship type: …

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage How so? It's a tool to keep mainsite uncluttered.

BESW

If somebody walks up and says "Please scramble an egg for me" and hands me an egg, an asbestos tile, and a blowtorch, I can absolutely do it, but I would really rather not.

(This is also my relationship with D&D.)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Neat.

'bout time I awarded a bounty, glad I finally did.

doppelgreener

Marvellous initiative in this model means: at the end of a player's turn, that player chooses who goes next for defining a face/location (or faction), out of all the players who haven't had a turn yet this round. If they're the last person in the round, a new round starts and they choose anybody at all to start the next round.

NautArch

3:35 PM

@KorvinStarmast Maybe I am seeing it wrong. I always saw the library as a collection of individual questions and answers that then may be applicable and usable by others who then have that question.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast but it's tacked on. Just like how some sites have a sandbox meta post for getting questions 'just right' before posting. That's a user innovation

doppelgreener

Oh, creating Factions is also Marvelous initiative. So there's a round in which only Factions get created.

BESW

Meta in a nutshell:

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

@Medix2 The Stack Exchange devoted years to developing an interface and infrastructure to enforce an epistemology that values pithy independent responses to clear, precise problems. This interface and its accompanying infrastructure actively discourages discussion, ambiguity, and accompaniment.

Apr 6 '20 at 0:59, by BESW

....Then they applied that interface to their space for discussing policies, identifying ambiguities, and accompanying each other.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW something something hammer... something something... OW! Why are you hitting me with a hammer?

BESW

yarp

KorvinStarmast

3:43 PM

I have decided that I prefer the accepted answer to be pinned on top, and here is an example of why - the stark contrast between accepted and most popular jumps out in just two answer. I think Thomas ran the numbers and found that most (something like 90%) of accepted are also top votes (discussion on bandwagon leaping upon is likely useful here) but in the cases where it isn't so, I think it's even more important to see the difference quickly.

Not interested in dying in a ditch over this one way or the other.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I think yours is the better answer

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast here is a good example

AncientSwordRage

4:01 PM

@ThomasMarkov yeah that's an excellent example

GcL

@KorvinStarmast The accepted answer is for 2nd edition D&D where the world was black and white. The most upvoted answer is pretty good, but still doesn't go into how a creature could be both good and evil depending on the point of view.

doppelgreener

Lots of answers that have problems but have a score 100+ have a root explanation of "HNQ happened here"

Thomas Markov

4:19 PM

100+ scoring answers are pretty dang rare.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov at least here thats true

Thomas Markov

13 answers in 2020 and 2021.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov how many were yours....

Thomas Markov

...three

Only two answers so far this year, so we are not on pace to match 2020.

Which had 11

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov does that include answers that reached 100 score after 2020?

Thomas Markov

4:22 PM

@Akixkisu No, that's just answers created in 2020-2021

GcL

What are the most prevalent tags for the upside down vote answers?

Thomas Markov

Wow, 2019 had 30 100+ scoring answers

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov How many were Kryan's?

Akixkisu

I assume that a good chunk of them become 100+score answers after a few bumps.

Thomas Markov

@GcL 3 non-D&D

One was fate, and two were system agnostic social questions.

Akixkisu

4:24 PM

60-80 votes after hnq and then time happens.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch 1 in 2019 and 1 in 2020

@Akixkisu Right, yes.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov That's surprising.

Akixkisu

I'd assume that Korvin has most 100+ scoring answers in that period.

NautArch

@Akixkisu Not Rubiks?

Akixkisu

@NautArch It would be my guess, but I'm not looking.

Thomas Markov

4:30 PM

I VTCd this question for needs details. I don't think the questions is answerable without being given a particular rules context.

Akixkisu

Rubiks probably has a bunch in the 60-80s category, but I don't think many 100+.

I'm not even sure about multiple.

Now I want to look.

Yes only this one rpg.stackexchange.com/a/142407/44723

I have no doubt about that Kryan has most in total, but not many recently due to the shift of audience and popularity of systems.

Thomas Markov

There's a script for this somewhere, one sec

Akixkisu

Nitsua has the highest average score per answer (after a cutoff) but probably fewer 100+ scoring ones than Dale.

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu data.stackexchange.com/rpg/revision/1458243/1790247/…

Top 3 are KRyan, SSD, and Korvin

Akixkisu

I thought SSD hat two fewer than that, but it looks as expected otherwise.

Thomas Markov

4:44 PM

My favorite stat is enlightened badges.

Akixkisu

Don't you have 1/5th of those?

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu It's like 22% of all enlightened badges since I started earning them

I have the most enlightened badges earned since 2015, despite joining midway through 2020

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov seems sus

Thomas Markov

And third most all time behind KRyan and SSD

23.6%

Medix2

5:04 PM

@ThomasMarkov I honestly can't even understand it. Wanting the terms defined doesn't make sense unless we see where they are used

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 I sort of get it in the abstract sense

but I think they're getting caught up on the plain english meaning of words

Medix2

I will say 99% of the time you can't know if a word is a game term or not in 5e

NautArch

@Medix2 And often it's both.

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 If I was bolder/more foolhardy I'd edit the Q so it said "How can I tell if a stat block is for an individual or not?"

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage Just ask yourself since youre the dm

NautArch

5:13 PM

@AncientSwordRage It's worth asking if that's an okay edit. It simplifies it massively.

Thomas Markov

How bout them close votes tho

four of us seem to have no idea what the question is really asking but i only see two close votes

NautArch

I think I do understand it...but the fact that we aren't in agreement...

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu I dont think that tag applies.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov designer reasons is the other one I'm pondering.

Do you think that is a better fit?

Thomas Markov

I dont think either of them are a good fit.

Akixkisu

5:19 PM

Hm what do you think the question asks?

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu I VTC'd because I dont have an answer to that lol

Akixkisu

I think the question asks "there is this term that I think has a particular meaning - what are all the instances that support that particular meaning?"

But it seems like an XY problem/not an actual problem.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch done

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu I intentionally avoided using the phrase "actual problem" in my comments because reasons

Akixkisu

No idea what else there is to do until we get more details.

Thomas Markov

5:23 PM

@Akixkisu Yeah, that's where Im at. It may be a content identification question. But I cant really tell.

I changed the dupe target on this question

Someone check behind me

AncientSwordRage

5:34 PM

I figured out why elves are always portrayed as skinny - they get good 'sleep' when they are in a trance.

Feeds

Needles & Nilbogs: An Auraic Academy, part 3: Course catalogue part 1

posted on September 09, 2021 by Bardic Wizard

Last week I talked about the various classes and scheduling at the Auraic Academy, and I’m continuing that today, with some excerpts from the course catalogue at the academy. I’m basing this on course catalogues that I’ve seen, so it doesn’t list the teachers but it lists the title and level of the class, a brief description, whether it’s a semester long or a year long (1 credit for semester l…

KorvinStarmast

@Akixkisu I doubt that, I suspect it's KRyan

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast from 2019-2020?

KRyan has most in total.

KorvinStarmast

@GcL I don't think so. I am pretty sure Lino answered that for 5e. He's well versed in both systems IIRC.

@Akixkisu I don't check on that, so maybe it was me? shrugs

Nits is, for my money, the best value D&D answerer on the stack since I've been here, and we've got a lot of good ones ... a few I don't see much of any more are guildsbounty and keithcurtis.

NautArch

Is there a search or whom I've upvoted most?

KorvinStarmast

5:50 PM

@NautArch Hmm, I suspect that might fun afoul of the anynymous voting framework? Guessing no, but I have not checked.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast That would make sense.

Akixkisu

1 hour ago, by Akixkisu

Nitsua has the highest average score per answer (after a cutoff) but probably fewer 100+ scoring ones than Dale.

NautArch

undelete dis?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch From the Author in a coment I've found a question which I think gets at the root of the issue which I think is more clear—and is based in resolving a problem. I will delete this question and open a new one. Thank you for your helpful comments Recommend not undeleting

Akixkisu

@NautArch no, put probably also close the new one.

NautArch

6:03 PM

@KorvinStarmast Not gonna die on the hill, but the initial question was a workshop for where they got. They are clearly related and the final question distilled from the first. It's the same question and we generally don't like it when users do this.

But it is 100% the same question - they just didn't have it figured out at first.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch OK, which one is the new question?

late to this show, apparently.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast the one about true polymorph

Akixkisu

-1

Q: What does 'kind of creature' mean in description of the True Polymorph spell?

The true polymorph spell states: Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). ... If you ...

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast it wasn't a great show, you didn't miss much.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I larfed, thanks. 😃😃

NautArch

6:05 PM

Howdy @MaximillianLaumeister!

Thomas Markov

VTC'd needs more focus. There are several questions in there, and some of them are actually answerable, but the main question is still confusing.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov I haven't the energy to engage in that one further, he answered my question in comment, it's a hair splitting question and today my brain isn't taking those.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov The main problem is that it is loaded with an argument.

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu also that

Akixkisu

I wonder if it is two or three questions.

Even parsing that is difficult.

Probably two at the moment.

Thomas Markov

6:09 PM

Pretty sure theyre still trying to get back around to wild shaping into a shapechanged dragon so they can use wild shape to become an adult dragon.

Maximillian Laumeister

Thanks @NautArch!

Akixkisu

Yup, but maybe there are more questions there that we could help with.

NautArch

It really is quite likely they still haven't gotten to their actual scenario.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Yeah, it feels like a set up.

> The trouble with a question like this is that even if we came up with a somewhat satisfying answer, the details of any specific citation could invalidate what we came up with.

NautArch

My work email is on some darkweb spam list and I got some real winners.

But the latest was from Thomas at Thomasnet.

I'm very suspicious.

Thomas Markov

6:16 PM

0.0

If this question is asked as a player, I think it can stay open.

It it's asked as the GM, its definitely opinion based.

NautArch

Earlier, my favorite spam ever, came from the Galactic Federation of Light selling pricey clothing. Begin your search and enjoy the ride. ALthough it gets kind of sad.

@ThomasMarkov That is true. Removed that bit for now.

@KorvinStarmast Thats a pretty bold addition you made to that immovable rod question.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah, I've asked for them to double check to make sure I captured that, but I get what he's after. ON further review, I removed that last bit. Thanks for the nugde.

NautArch

I mean, in the end it doesn't matter.

It's either Ask your DM or close for opinion.

Thomas Markov

I gave an answer.

nitsua60

@NautArch If you run for mod and win, there's a cross-voting tool you have access to...

@KorvinStarmast >blush<

Keithcurtis, definitely some good ones. Old SSD and mxy, too. Especially outside of D&D/PF.

KorvinStarmast

6:32 PM

@nitsua60 I got a lot of value out of this stack as our various groups tried things out." And a related question: are you still on the play testing list? Be happy to help if one comes up.

nitsua60

@Akixkisu I'm not sure it's a feather in my cap: I think that's an artifact of quickly tiring of answering fairly straightforward 5e questions.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 that's OK, plenty of us didn't mind doing that. Still doing it

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I did not run one or two I was invited to in 2020, because I really didn't want to game online. (RotFM was the last I ran, with my in-person group through the winter of 19-20.) Since then there's been a change of who does it at D&D, and I don't know whether I've been culled from a list or if it just hasn't been used yet?

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Good to know. If you do hear from them you know where to find me. :)

@nitsua60 I really miss playing in person; all I can do at the mo is game on line. (It prevents the conflict with the Missus, who is even less of a fan now than she was before). At least if I'm home I'm not out doing something without her. (fair point, from her PoV).

@nitsua60 My son and I are getting all poised for a once a week session of Diablo II: remastered as soon as it comes out. He's in another city, and an old friend will join us to make 3; we are really looking forward to it. Which means one of my D&D games may need to go away ...

doppelgreener

fwiw, I think there's a use case for answer pinning solving situations like that, but I'd raise these questions:
• why do we provide control of that pin exclusively to one user (not even mods), on a site that makes everything else curatable by the community?
• why do we conflate the "this is the answer you should look at" pin with "this is the answer the OP went with"? isn't that two different jobs? why's the user expected to switch that pin to answers they didn't go with?
• if this situation happens enough to be concenred about, doesn't that mean maybe the Stack should rethink its voting m…

there's a unique function the pinned accepted answer serves, but it's being used as the solution for problems it's not designed for and doesn't solve well, because it coincidentally has sometimes fixed that problem.

KorvinStarmast

6:47 PM

@doppelgreener All interesting questions which I honestly never gave much thought to. I just did the old "works well enough" and moved on. As to *if this situation happens enough to be concerned about*
What concern does it raise?
*doesn't that mean maybe the Stack should rethink its voting mechanisms a bit, the effect of HNQ, re-evaluate the solutions people have proposed to FGITW and votes begetting more votes*
That's a lot packed into one thought/sentence, but I for sure feel that HNQ could use a rethink.

FGITW I don't think is solvable. Votes begetting more votes has a mitigating factor (minor at best) of a limited number of votes per day. I have an idea that reducing the number of votes per day might be a way forward (I almost never use my quota) such that each choice to expend a vote might be more carefully considered.

AncientSwordRage

Reddit has attempted to solve these with a 'no participation' mode to prevent accidental brigades, and also hiding votes for a certain amount of time

I don't know how successful they were/are or claim they solve the issues just raised, but it's something to think about

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Turns out it was opinion based. Oh well.

doppelgreener

there's lots of problems the Stack has caused itself by compromising its own goals. for example in this case:
mainsite says the stack is for carefully providing people with answers.
HNQ says the stack is for entertainment.
gamification says "but the user needs to feel engaged!" and so wants them to get all the points

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast We would have to drastically reduce votes per day for that to have an effect here, I think.

I think the only time I've used up all of my votes in a day was when I was gamifyng for that one badge.

doppelgreener

same

KorvinStarmast

6:56 PM

@ThomasMarkov In the past four years, every now and then I go on a voting streak and hit the limit. But it's rare. I often get "you have not voted on questions in a while" as a nag from the system.

Thomas Markov

Ive averaged 13.5 votes per day.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Well presented 👍 HNQ remains for me a feature we could do without and I am not sure if gamification is a cause or a side effect.

Thomas Markov

So a 20 vote per day limit might get me to care every once in a while.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov But are you an average user?

Drop it to 15 for a month and see if anyone hits the cap.

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast No, that's my point. I'm an extreme case. Cut the vote limit in half and I still, on average, wouldnt hit the cap. Which means most users wont even notice the change.

HNQ drives a substantial portion of our voting.

So the mechanistic model there is something like "HNQ drives up voting, which drives up internet points, which incentivize quality contribution. Ergo, HNQ incentivizes quality contribution."

@KorvinStarmast Gamification and HNQ are definitely intimately connected.

Akixkisu

7:18 PM

Well, there is the much anticipated self-answer of such as red dragons of different ages.

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu Sometimes, a user's self-answer helps to clarify the question. This is not one of those times.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov Hmm, I guess people need an incentive to participate beyond a general feel good of "I helped someone with my sharing of knowledge"

doppelgreener

7:34 PM

@KorvinStarmast I've added that as a tangent to my meta post

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener I'll go have a look ...

Cooper

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/191416/… "Creature" no longer looks like a word to me.

Thomas Markov

7:49 PM

@Cooper HA

Cooper

@ThomasMarkov If a creature is a kind of word that can be polymorphed into a different creature, at what point does creature stop looking like a word?

KorvinStarmast

@Cooper Word is an object, so polymorph into creature applies. (See what I did there? 😉 )

(a noun usually be the object of a preposition)

Cooper

@KorvinStarmast Someone is going to need to polymorph my brain back into a brain, because it's just about melting out my ears at this point XD

KorvinStarmast

@Cooper For that, we have beer. 😁

Cooper

@KorvinStarmast Considering it's 2pm and I'm still at work, I'm sticking to my coffee!

Given my middling SQL skills, I don't think I should be adding alcohol to me futzing around with a database...probably a recipe for disaster

KorvinStarmast

7:58 PM

@Cooper Don't drink and {RAID} drive ... 😮

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Akixkisu

8:37 PM

My favourite thing about the XDM kickstarter is this: "This hardback book will be built to last. This book will probably outlive you, unless you go swimming with it. But if you get eaten by a shark on that swim, the book wins again."

Akixkisu

8:48 PM

@screamline On meta, you propose that the tyranny of the majority gains a check against the querent by unpinning - what exactly do you mean by that?

screamline

9:08 PM

@Akixkisu Fair question -- we have a zero-sum situation here. Either the accepted answer is on top, or the highest-voted answer is on top. Unpinning means the majority gets to override the querent's choice by sheer force of numbers.

Akixkisu

@screamline But how does that constitute a check?

The querent gets to make the choice to accept.

But the choice would not also pin the answer.

The querent doesn't lose the ability to accept.

screamline

In other words, in an unpinned world, the querent could pick a substantively good answer only to have the majority upvote a dumb pun answer into the top spot

Akixkisu

Sure that can happen, but where is the check in that?

The expression of the querent is clearly marked and the majority can't do anything about it.

screamline

It's a check in the sense that the individual user's choice for what answer should be most visible is overridden. There's a reason why newspapers fret over which stories get space "above the fold." That's what people see.

If I want to know what answer the user accepted, and it ain't on top, I have to go digging through potentially many answers to find it.

Akixkisu

@screamline But it doesn't stop you at all from doing it.

It makes it only so that you might need to scroll a little in about less than 10% of the cases.

Is it even zero sum - when both the majority can express their guidance and the querent can express themselves?

That both get to visibly rank their choice seems more like co-opetition.

screamline

9:27 PM

I don't know what co-opetition means.

Akixkisu

Maybe you know it as cooperative competition.

screamline

10:06 PM

If your view is that this issue is negligible because it is less than 10% of cases, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

KorvinStarmast

11:27 PM

@screamline That's part of why I like the feature as is, see my comment from earlier today

And as an aside on group/crowd/mob psychology, sometimes none of is indeed not as dumb as all of us.

But I am pretty sure that most accepted answers are also the most voted answers here, which doubles down on why I like to see those cases where they are not, so leave the pin is my gut feel on this.

Akixkisu

11:52 PM

@screamline That is not at all my view. In only 10% of the cases, the selection changes the pinned answer. In 90% of the cases, the result implies that zero-sum categorically doesn't apply. Who is the loser if both win there?

In all cases, we have a cooperative effort to get the best answer to the top. What the "best" answer entails is different for the querent and voters, and here the voters are not a homogenous mass of non-humans.

BESW

Gamefound campaign: CyberMetal 2012 by Adam Vass of World Champ Game Co. A tabletop rpg of demons, metalheads, and weirdos surviving and thriving in an isolated city of warped technology in an alternate timeline.

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