I'm right on the fence of whether or not the whole endeavor is even minimally worthwhile for a nobody; it wouldn't be that much work (relatively speaking) to polish up my campaign notes and plans, but to include things that are all but necessary in a publication (like art and nice page layouts) would mean I need to spend some money upfront

Which isn't a problem, I just need some framework to evaluate how much of that is even maybe valuable

@Upper_Case Art is not a requirement of publication

Heck, even quality page layouts are minimally important

@RevanantBacon I guess you're right but I'm less sure of that for a successful publication (however successful is defined, which I should probably also sort out). I know that I've made use of third-party resources that were pretty spare on that kind of thing, but I can't tell if I'm unusual in that or not

Definitely not unusual

And how much of a success you are is determined by how much work you put into it vs how much you get back from it. If you're just looking to get it out to people, and don't care about making money from it, you can put it up as a "pay what you want" and job done

@Upper_Case everybody starts as a nobody at some point

@RevanantBacon Ultimately getting it out there is my goal, I think. But it would also be nice to be positioned to make some money, if that's potentially an option

@AncientSwordRage True enough. I see the ultra-premium "homebrew" products, like those from Mercer and Colville, but those are probably not the right yardsticks to measure against

@Upper_Case there are free templates and images you can use, but they might have strings attached

@Upper_Case Hard agree. Those are made by entire teams of folks

@Upper_Case the best way to make a break is just to churn out content till something sticks then refine on whatever that is.

@G.Moylan I've seen some of those (BESW knows about a ton of them!), and they're pretty nice. I'm just wavering on how much polish on top of even that might be necessary to entice people. I wasn't totally sold on Strongholds and Followers until I saw its spectacular, detailed artwork. It was an impactful moment that has been hard to shake from my mind

I mean, you have to start somewhere. Some of the products I've spent money on there had like two pictures and a page template/texture, and that was it.

they're also the ones I tend to get the most mileage out of

Products that are pretty aren't always products that are good. And vice versa.

Pretty helps. People like pretty, and decent typesetting. You don't necessarily appreciate good typesetting, but holy heck do people get annoyed when it's done poorly.

@Upper_Case I guess it's a balance, one can make up for the other or at least clue you in the the whole thing is good

All good advice. I've been procrastinating, and should really just write. Even if I do end up deciding to pursue some nicer features they'll need the core product to even begin

Content first is a good plan. Format later. Maybe even wrap it in some sexy LaTeX later.

@GcL SexTeX sells, I hear

There are Sexpr{}

I love that show

Certainly if you're looking for, say, success in a Kickstarter campaign, then already having some eye-catching art is often a major factor.

But from my own experience making free games that have careful but not flashy layout and only cover art with an occasional free asset inside...

The thing that got me views and downloads on itch, ultimately, was having a compelling pitch and getting my game listed in collections and jams.

One thing that I think is important to keep in mind: art gets people to make the initial purpose, but if the content doesn't live up to the promise of the art then you lose them as repeat customers and they won't give you good word of mouth.

When Goblin Court got reviewed on a podcast I suspect the literally shiny cover art is why it was initially chosen out of all the Goblin Jam games--but the boost in views and downloads came from the podcast's response to the content.

XD

just literally being called goblin mom is one of the best GM experiences I've had XD

One of my best DM'ing moments was an impression of a goblin. No one expected it and they loved it haha

[grin] Presentation gets eyes on your work once, but delivering a reliable and satisfying experience gets people coming back.

...Looking at those numbers I really really want to get into making Traveling Librarians a full system, there's obvious interest.

@BESW yeah. I've rub a couple of one off's, which people enjoyed, but I'm not sure if I can do an open campaign

@Ben how exactly do you rub a one-off?

@BESW But if I could deliver it all at once...

Thank you for the advice, it's helpful and encouraging

@bobble ask it nicely

@Carcer what happens if you ask it not-nicely?

@Ben Big ahah! moment for me while playing Atomic Robo: a campaign doesn't have to be anything more complex than a series of one-shots joined by the continuity of the player characters.

bonus points when the players invent a narrative they assume links the completely unrelated events and you just roll with it

Imagine Doctor Who as a fifty-year campaign. Or better yet, let Siskoid imagine it for you, with constantly shifting GMs, players, characters, settings, guest players, some of them returning decades later in the same or completely different roles. Very little planning ahead and most of the plans get scrapped partway through when attendance changes. And yet, it's clearly a coherent campaign.

@BESW is the lesson there to just bring back one of the villains your players liked every so often until they're sick to death of them?

The lesson of the Daleks is not to tie your franchise image to an IP you don't own, so that its continued use saddles you with frequency-of-appearance mandates.

@BESW yeah it's surprising just how close it is to Goblin Court

it's got fewer views but just barely fewer downloads

Yeah, for being a system-detached campaign guide rather than a game, and having the lowest production values of all my products, it's got a wild view-to-download ratio.

Does "Views" count each view or each visitor? (e.g. if I look at Goblin Court on three different days, is that three views?)

I'm guessing it's tied to IP addresses?

TL's popularity also serves to give the lie to the common wisdom that TRPG products without any extraordinary elements are inherently less popular.

I mean, I do think part of the draw for TRPG's is that you can do things you wouldn't or couldn't normally do

but that's just it, you aren't probably a traveling librarian, that's still a new different experience XD

Well, like, Evil Hat's series of Worlds of Adventure is full of things like "Oregon Trail but with vampires," and there's a lot more market for Edwardian mystery games if you add a bit of cosmic horror or technological anachronism than if it's just playing at Sherlock Holmes.

And at a certain point I think that kind of marketing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they've convinced the market that the stories of ordinary people are necessarily boring.

You can see a similar trend in TV and streaming series, where the police procedural swung from Columbo to CSI to iZombie.

and Lucifer

Exactly.

literally,... just a police procedural but now force the devil to be a cop

I will never let that one go

Even the new Nancy Drew had to add Real Ghosts.

@trogdor That's the other thing, is adding "they fight crime" to a pitch that doesn't need it. The two trends feed on each other pretty aggressively.