TRPG General Chat

12:11 AM

@KorvinStarmast I closed this question again because it doesn't seem like it's changed, but if you've got a solid reason for opening, I'll reopen as well.

Ben

12:26 AM

@Yuuki So the statement of "I am going to eat the thing that comes out of this chicken's butt" is not entirely accurate. It would have probably been more like "I've tried eating the things that come out of a bird's butt, and so far, the best I've found is from a chicken - easy to catch, easy to control, easy to crack."

Yuuki

yeah, but chickens have domesticated for, i imagine, quite some time. i doubt that the modern chicken egg is the exact same egg that first led humans to decide to domesticate chickens

when it comes to breeding chickens for eggs, i would imagine that they would select for size but i was wondering how much the eggshell and membrane factored into breeding selection as well

bobble

@Yuuki as you should know, we get bigger eggs by petting the chickens :)

Yuuki

man, i know why we stopped doing it, but vaguely titled questions were hilarious

Ben

Caveman 1: explains reason for selection of particular fowl, and why they are breeding it, and then eating it's eggs
Caveman 2: [Confused Unga Bunga](https://s.kym-cdn.com/assets/blank-8f52844e31c600b21b78a8b0b00dbfbb.gif)

Yuuki

markdown doesn't work on multiline messages, unfortunately

Ben

12:33 AM

cough I knew that >_>

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: Can you retrain a feat acting as a prerequisite if you get a different ability that fulfills the prerequisite?

From Retraining: You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bon...

bobble

-14

A: Markdown in chat fails for multi-line messages

It is basically assumed that if you have something that is multi-line, you're either pasting a block of text and submitting it, or you're posting a block of code and the whole thing is going to be fixed-font/code. Markdown is only processed for single-line messages, unless the entire thing is cod...

Ben

96

A: The Memes of Arqade and its Chat

Meme: Questions that are absurd without context Originator: Various Cultural Height: As Often as Possible Background: How can I get my wife to stop nagging about a few murders? fable-3 Can I pass out from excessive drinking? bioshock How can I tell if a corpse is safe to eat? nethack How can I ...

bobble

@Ben already read that one :)

Ben

@Yuuki I realized the problem as you posted that. Lol.

Yuuki

12:38 AM

8

Q: Can I eat the corpses of my dead siblings?

When you breed a new generation, it's possible to end up with more than one in a litter. These extras are considered packmates, which you can use to distract enemies or help you hunt. Is it possible, after losing one or more packmates after a big fight, to consume their corpses to gain calories a...

tokyo-jungle

Ben

I think my favourite one was "How do Increase my chances of getting Cancer" from Binging of Isaac, though that was probably because I was directly involved in that question haha

Akixkisu

@Yuuki I think this is one of those bets that I'd take when it is about: Is there academic work on this topic?

Yuuki

@Ben now i'm taking a look at that entire post again, curse you

bobble

@Yuuki what curse?

Yuuki

Ben

12:47 AM

@Yuuki You're welcome

Yuuki

now i feel old for being a part of so many of these

Ben

MikeQ

@Ben The verbal component is "Stop right there, criminal scum!"

Ben

1:03 AM

Lolol

Shalvenay

1:15 AM

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

@BESW So I'm just spitballing here... is an inherent challenge that any goal-oriented conflict system like that would have to have a way that ~forces~ the PCs to give up on their goals? (Or, at least, this particular approach to them?) I'm not saying that'd make it undoable, but it does go right in the face of DnD-esques' emergent ethos of "I'm the PC, I can make anything go the way I want and you'll have to kill me to stop me!"

So I'd imagine a goal-oriented combat system would have to be pretty strongly typed as such.

@Shalvenay hey-ooh!

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 how're things going? did you see my Discord ping btw?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay pretty okay, and I didn't, sorry. [rummages]

Got it now.

nitsua60

1:32 AM

Ramadan Kareem, those who observe!

BESW

1:53 AM

@nitsua60 hrm. I feel like "I am dead" is also an effective way to force a PC to give up a goal. The difference for me lies in prioritizing and encouraging things other than death as a failure state, and I suspect providing more structure for defining goals is necessary for that. "I am dead" is a universal failure state, while many other failure states are goal-dependent.

Non-death failure states also make more room for failing forward, which is a big contributor to getting player buy-in for failure.

nitsua60

2:35 AM

Yeah--I'm just thinking about the mindset-shift it'd take to get DnD players out of the "the only way to stop me is to kill me, and GM's not going to kill me..." cycle.

BESW

Yeah, that's where I think the key is defining goals that are external to the individual-betterment advancement cycle.

nitsua60

There're a lot of things I like about Traveller's DNA over DnD's (if we're going to compare 80s RPGs, which I am), but the top two have to be combat damage going directly to physical stats and the lack of much by way of character advancement. The first means that all combat is deadly serious, needs to be prepared for, and should be run from at almost any opportunity. The second means that a party only "grows in power" by expanding and enriching their network of NPC allies/contacts.

nitsua60

2:52 AM

0

Q: Did "Changing a skill" of Tasha allows me to changing a skill proficiency from the background for one offered by the class?

I was arguing with my DM that it works. But he don't think so. Actually it seems to me there's no restriction of the origin of a skill proficiency to it can be changed. I've understood from the rule that as long as you have a skill proficiency, you can change it if your DM accept. And he understo...

dnd-5e skills dungeons-and-dragons proficiency optional-rules

I don't have Tasha so I'm not going to answer ^^, but I do hope that it ends up with an answer pointing out "PHB p.125 makes it clear any character can start with any two skills they want, btw."

Hot RPG Questions

3:31 AM

8

Q: How to handle when a player wants the DM to hard-bend the story for his/her epic idea of outcome?

I'm a DM. My level 11 player, at the first stepping stone of a Paragon Tier, started to fantasize, moreover, insist on a particular outcome for him for level 21 (Epic Tier). In short: he wants to die, then reborn as a Revenant, also, he wants to acquire certain legendary items. The campaign I'm D...

dnd-4e gm-techniques

KorvinStarmast

3:54 AM

@NautArch not enough improvement, not seeing a need to reopen

@nitsua60 yeah, those are neat features, and the "only fight if you have to or if you have set the fight up to your advantage" are good bits from Traveller that were in, believe it or not, original D&D. Things have morphed a bit, to be sure, in the latter ...

2

BESW

8:08 AM

Just rediscovered this 2016 essay, which I'm surprised I didn't link at the time.

"Curse of Strahd: correctly labels Strahd an abuser, yet troublingly racist" and "Curse of Strahd continued, problems with gender and mental illness [CW]" on Go Make Me A Sandwich.

AncientSwordRage

8:41 AM

@nitsua60 Ramadan Mubarak!

7

AncientSwordRage

9:15 AM

@BESW Mouseguard has determination. One mouse can have their goal of "Grab the map from the sea shack and escape", whereas the giant grab could have "Catch and eat the mice" as it's goal

I think burning wheel has a similar mechanic

BESW

9:43 AM

@AncientSwordRage Part of my interest is in how systems work with players to define goals. Fate wants each group in a conflict to clearly define their goals before beginning the conflict, but its generic open-endedness means it has absolutely no support or guidance for what makes a good conflict goal or how to resolve things if circumstances change mid-conflict.

So we often wind up back at the D&D paradigm by saying the goal is to kill the other guys, because the game told us to break out of that mold but didn't do anything to actually help us do something different.

AncientSwordRage

I'll look up how it works later if I can remember

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Core actually has a few lines that look to me like they're promoting a bigger disconnect between Conflicts and other goals than some traditional games do.

They amount to 'if your Contest/Challenge has attacks, do a Conflict instead'.

And conversely, in Conflicts proper, things like retreats or achieved goals seem to largely be things that happen once the Conflict ends (by Concession or total takeout).

And, to put it in computer game terms, 'I capture the flag and Concede back to base' is not how it's meant to be played, according to the consensus interpretations I'd seen so far.

The Oracle

10:42 AM

0

Q: Can we quote part of novels in our questions and answers?

I recently answered to this question and I quoted some parts of the novel as support for my answer. I was wondering if we are allowed to quote text from novels as we do for rules from manuals, or if we have to pay attention to copyright and/or other law aspects. I suppose that once the reference ...

discussion questions answers citations legal-questions

AncientSwordRage

This is a good write up of conflicts in mouseguard

boardgamegeek.com/thread/923230/article/11405903#11405903

Especially how compromise works

Hot RPG Questions

11:28 AM

4

Q: Does "Changing a skill" of Tasha allows me to changing a skill proficiency from the background for one offered by the class?

Does "Changing a skill" from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything allows me to change a skill proficiency from my background, by one offered by my class? I think it works, but my DM does not. It seems to me there's no restriction of the origin of the skill proficiency to change. What I understand by RA...

dnd-5e skills proficiency optional-rules

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Okay, just making sure after your hammer reopen.

Thank you!

BESW

...dang, I spaced out and totally missed the opportunity to back Cryptid (Mis)Communication.

> Cryptid (Mis)Communication is a role playing game to be played outdoors, at a blurry distorted distance. In it, you and your friend both pretend to be cryptids (if you aren't cryptids already) who just want to catch up. The problem is, if you get too close, you won't be all that mysterious anymore, so you have to keep your distance. To communicate, you need to shout across the field or the parking lot or the abandoned amusement park where you've found each other.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW BTW this was an interesting read

BESW

@AncientSwordRage The author is still getting harassed for it by Redditers, five years and an obscuring of contact information later.

AncientSwordRage

I've gone from 'One day I'll by CoS and modify it to be about Sorin Markov from MTG' and now I'm thinking 'Let's just make a story wholesale'

@BESW youch

that's shocking

BESW

11:46 AM

A trans feminist gamer dismantling the bigotry baked into beloved legacy content... yeah, they're never gonna stop.

I came across the articles because earlier today the author posted a thread on twitter dismantling a email they just received from someone who tracked down their address to "share some thoughts."

AncientSwordRage

ugh

they did another good post on the art in the original three D&D books

it was linked at the bottom of the article

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch aah, I forgot that I have the dupe hammer, sorry.

NautArch

12:02 PM

@KorvinStarmast I was worried about hammer wars.

:P

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Can't Touch this 🔨

BaconyRevanant

3:03 PM

If I can get exactly 9 more upvotes, I can hit precisely 9,999 rep

GcL

@BaconyRevanant Just point me to what you need down voted. I found two extra down votes last week.

nitsua60

3:32 PM

@KorvinStarmast Oh, yeah. My first 1-hp fighter in 0e D&D taught me a lot.... [grumble grumble wish mearls and crawford had played in that campaign grumble]

hello

@Catofdoom2 hi!

how are you

good thanks!

you?

Cat of doom2

meh

bobble

3:39 PM

@TheOracle if we couldn't quote novels, Lit.SE would have... problems :)

Cat of doom2

3:49 PM

what should i do this thursday

GcL

Learn to knit?

AncientSwordRage

Knitting is good

GcL

Saw some Olympic skier doing it before he totally rocked his run. In the interview he said it brought him peace.

AncientSwordRage

4:02 PM

I love the idea of making stuff, and I've tried it once, and my hands just do no want to follow instructions

Cat of doom2

4:57 PM

I have infantile reflexes so I can't move my hands right. I don't think I should knit. I struggle sewing

BaconyRevanant

5:17 PM

You could always try baking. Fine motor skills are very seldom a necessity

Cat of doom2

ok

i like baking

what if i make my final boss have an ability where it gains 1 armour class for every player it kills
like what if it starts with 23 or 22 and will just keep getting stronger

NautArch

@Catofdoom2 Why would you base a mechanic off of killing your players? But even more so usually things get easier as the fight goes on and the enemy is whittled down, not necessarily more difficult. I really recommend sticking with published monsters until you get a feel of the game.

Cat of doom2

@nitsua60 @BaconyRevanant

Thomas Markov

23 is a pretty high AC.

Cat of doom2

ok

there we go

now we are talking

what if he gets stronger if he goes a few turns without being hurt

?

like he'll heal or hit harder

Thomas Markov

5:27 PM

There is precedent for soemthing like that in Trolls.

Cat of doom2

ok

Thomas Markov

Trolls regenerate some HP if they go a round without taking fire damage.

Cat of doom2

oh

trolls are undead?

BaconyRevanant

@Catofdoom2 I very strongly suggest avoiding homebrewing monsters until you get a good feel for the game

Thomas Markov

Trolls are not undead.

dndbeyond.com/monsters/troll

Their creature type is Giant

Regeneration. The troll regains 10 hit points at the start of its turn. If the troll takes acid or fire damage, this trait doesn't function at the start of the troll's next turn. The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 hit points and doesn't regenerate.

Cat of doom2

5:29 PM

oh

trolls are pretty good starter enemys for higher levels

anyone else you recommend?

Thomas Markov

Here is a search on DNDBeyond of CR 10-12 monsters from the Basic Rules

Cat of doom2

ok

MikeQ

Addendum: It's often advised to avoid homebrewing mechanical stuff (monster abilities, classes, etc) until one has more experience with the system, although you can recycle the numbers from an existing thing but describe it differently.

Cat of doom2

thank you

Thomas Markov

Any of these would make a good boss fight for a Tier 2 party of 4 or 5

Cat of doom2

5:32 PM

ok

Thomas Markov

Levels 8-10 probably.

Cat of doom2

solar

MikeQ

In D&D 5e changing creature types usually doesn't have a big impact. Changing a troll to undead (and changing nothing else about its stat block) means it's immune to anything that doesn't affect undead, and becomes subject to anything that specifically targets undead. But it otherwise functions the same difficulty-wise.

NautArch

Plug them into one of the encounter calculators to help guide you, but please heed our recommendations to stick with published materials until you've got a feel for the game.

Cat of doom2

ok

Solar seems like it could be a good start

Yuuki

5:35 PM

i'm a big fan of reskinning if you're concerned about originality

Cat of doom2

ok

does anyone have objections to solar?

dndbeyond.com/monsters/solar

BaconyRevanant

@MikeQ That's one of the best changes for 5e IMO. There are now no longer blanket immunities and such for creatures that they get just because of their creature type

Thomas Markov

What level and how many are the party

Cat of doom2

7 level 12's

Yuuki

CR 21 seems like a pretty serious jump in difficulty if you were previously looking at CR 10-12

Thomas Markov

5:37 PM

@Yuuki I suggested that CR range.

BaconyRevanant

What do you even mean by "do we have objections"?

Thomas Markov

@Catofdoom2 CR 21 for 7 12th level characters should be a medium encounter without added minions.

Cat of doom2

ok

NautArch

You'll also learn that a fight with multiple creatures is usually MUCH harder than a single big one. Action economy is a major influencer.

Cat of doom2

i know

Yuuki

5:40 PM

Solar has this though:

> Slaying Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die.

BaconyRevanant

Be very careful about the solars longbow attack, since it has the potential to one-shot a good number of characters at level 12

Yuuki

On average, most characters at 12th-level will have less than 100 HP.

BaconyRevanant

@Yuuki Yeah, that one

NautArch

@BaconyRevanant I don't remember when my party fought a solar, but it was definitely after 12.

Yuuki

In fact, even a barbarian has, on average, a little less than 90 HP at 12th-level.

NautArch

5:41 PM

And we're generally a bunch of min-maxers.

Cat of doom2

fair engough

BaconyRevanant

That Solar has (if your players roll poorly) the ability to wipe the entire party in 7 rounds

Without taking its actual damge numbers into account

MikeQ

What if they removed the Con-save-or-die clause in the longbow? Would that be fairer for a 12th level party?

Thomas Markov

@MikeQ Without that effect it would be a medium encounter.

BaconyRevanant

Well, it still deals 8d8+6 damage on a hit with the longbow, and has a +13 attack bonus

Cat of doom2

5:43 PM

possibly

BaconyRevanant

What's the highest AC in the party?

Cat of doom2

crazy damge but its possible

@BaconyRevanant 21

Thomas Markov

+13 hits AC21 65% of the time

BaconyRevanant

And the sword has +15

so 75% to hit

and that's the hardest to hit character

MikeQ

Taking a few steps back here, but what's the point of the encounter? Why would they encounter a solar? Do they need to kill it?

NautArch

5:46 PM

^^

Cat of doom2

@MikeQ no, he'll just be a guardian of a gate

he'll let anyone pure of hurt through

BaconyRevanant

And with the greatsword, it hits for 4d6+6d8+8 damage (49 average) If these players have less than 100 HP, this thing is gonna kill one per turn pretty much garuanteed

Cat of doom2

pure of heart

@MikeQ no, he'll just be a guardian of a gate
he'll let anyone pure of heart through the gate

MikeQ

Ok, I'll assume that means something in the context of your game. As for your players, how often do they try non-combat approaches? Or do they always attack any creature that approaches them?

NautArch

@Catofdoom2 What does pure of heart mean?

I mean, you've got a group of ~~killers~~ adventurers.

@Catofdoom2 What is on the other side of the gate that the players need access to?

Cat of doom2

5:51 PM

it the final boss

@NautArch its the final boss

NautArch

@Catofdoom2 Is the Solar on the side of the final boss?

Cat of doom2

yes

he's protecting him

NautArch

Are the players evil?

MikeQ

Are the players smaller than a breadbox?

Cat of doom2

but the boss is one of those prideful types so the solar won't help him because the boss will tell him not top

to

i think they all choose netrual

NautArch

5:53 PM

I am very confused.

Cat of doom2

the boss is overconfident and won't let anyone help him

MikeQ

Ok, ignoring the solar for a bit, what's the most difficult encounter you've thrown at your players so far? Why was it difficult?

NautArch

But if the Solar is a Solar, and they are protecting the Boss, that suggests the Boss is also angelic/celestial. WHy do the players want to kill them?

@MikeQ @Catofdoom2 And what is the current story line?

BaconyRevanant

So are the players supposed to fight this solar gate guardian to get in? and what does "pure of heart" mean? Like pure goodness? Or pure anything? (to quote Vegeta from DBZ abridged "My heart is pure. Pure badass")

Cat of doom2

lol

MikeQ

5:56 PM

I'm going to assume that the story makes sense to the participants, and having the final stretch against celestial creatures is totally ok. I'm asking about game mechanics and balance now. Because there's a good chance a CR 21 solar can overwhelm the players, and the GM may need a backup plan.

Cat of doom2

becasue the players said they want to kill a god

i'll brb

i'll explain it

NautArch

@Catofdoom2 You realize you are the DM, right? If you and/or your players aren't experienced, jumping at that level and with these combats is a really difficult thing to do.

MikeQ

My guess is that the "pure of heart" thing is for flavor, and this is going to be a forced fight. Some groups enjoy that.

NautArch

Not saying you can't do it or it won't be fun, but I think there is an issue here with the players bullying you into decisions and a lack of fundamental understanding of the system.

Yuuki

pure of heart means that your body has to be composed of 100% heart muscle

MikeQ

5:59 PM

@Yuuki No, pure of heart means that the adventurers have no cardiovascular disease, because angelic healing is insurance-based and doesn't cover preexisting conditions

Cat of doom2

ok

the pure of heart thing is kinda dumb and I'll probley drop that

Thomas Markov

You should play through Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus.

Cat of doom2

ok

AncientSwordRage

@Catofdoom2 would it be helpful if we created a separate chat room for this discussion? I don't think it's disrupting the room, but it might be easier for you to filter out the noise?

@ThomasMarkov is that recommended for a novice GM?

MikeQ

That's a whole adventure though, with its own world and story. Major time commitment. Can't really fit it into an existing campaign.

Cat of doom2

6:04 PM

@AncientSwordRage another room wouldn't be bad

its up to you

AncientSwordRage

I'll let you and @NautArch decide, as I know they can make a room. That said it might be better in here? ::shurgs::

I'm off for a while thought

ciao for niao

MikeQ

Here is fine. Discussions about campaign structure and encounter balance are on-topic. Plus it's open to feedback from other users who may have useful experience.

Cat of doom2

ok

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ golf clap well played.

Cat of doom2

id

idk

MikeQ

6:10 PM

So story aside, the encounter-balance questions to consider here are:
1. How likely are your players to rush into a fight, versus try a non-combat approach?
2. What has been the hardest encounter so far, and why was it difficult?
Thinking about those questions can estimate how things might play out if you present the players with a CR 21 enemy.

Cat of doom2

lol

NautArch

3. Do they need to fight the god now or can this be what the campaign is about and it can be delayed?

Cat of doom2

@MikeQ the closest they've ever come to death was trying to fight each other pointlessly

the god thing will be at the very end

NautArch

Which is in jow many sessions and when they are at what level?

Cat of doom2

they'll be able fight the god by the time it is needed

NautArch

6:14 PM

For instance, my last homebrew campaign ended at level 20. We were several sessions into level 20 when we had final battle against Belial.

You aren't really clear here.

MikeQ

It's not happening soon so I don't think it's relevant to the presenting question

Cat of doom2

latest 2 more months or 6 sessions until they fight it

noooo

NautArch

@MikeQ very fair. Thought this solar was guarding the god, my bad.

Cat of doom2

more like 12

brb

Axoren

@Akixkisu I think what may not have been clear was that this was intended to be a bottom-up replacement for a combat system, not a way to change up an existing one. I'm not sure how bartering would work as the basis for generalized combat.

Yuuki

6:23 PM

> "i'll trade you one crowbar to the face for 8 of your hit points"
> "sorry, i can only do 6 hit points, how's about you throw in a bonus action kneecap?"

2

MikeQ

Monks have a buy-1-get-1-free deal on punches

Axoren

@BESW Did you mean to include the stress system as a whole here? Because if that's the case, it could work fairly well.

@MikeQ With a coupon for one more free with a purchase of Ki

Akixkisu

6:41 PM

@Axoren a barter is a trade. Essentially an exchange of resources orientated around the goals of the parties involved in the trade. There are more favourable outcomes and less favourable outcomes. That exchange can be any good. Imagine you are in a prestigious magic academy, and your rival Jerry C. invented a way to summon a mythical creature that solves basic needs.

However, your family's wealth and prestige depend on their revenue gained by exploiting peasant labour forces to grow food with the tools and land that your family inherited from your ancestors. As you are a prestigious lordling, you know that you instantly would lose face if you went ahead and lobbed a fireball at the whole population of mythical creatures. So somebody else has to torch the creatures.

To save the day, you will have to gather information and exchange some of that hard-earned prestige for favours for up and coming aristocrats and other opportunists. The issue with trading favours, hiring people, and all that jazz is that, of course, you will have to compete in a way that maximises your gain by offering the worst goods that still will do the job. If you don't, then somebody else up and coming will take your spot, and you don't want to lose your position.

Axoren

@Akixkisu I want to punch Jerry C a whole bunch. How do I decide when I've punched him enough?

Thomas Markov

Jerry C? Like the dude who played Canon on the guitar?

Akixkisu

@Axoren You don't. Sadly in this world punching him means that you lose. At least if you do it directly.

GcL

Could do the evil thing and team up with Jerry to monopolize the solution to basic needs, marketing, and distribution of it.

Axoren

@Akixkisu Unfortunately, that's not helpful. I need a system that let's me beat the crap out of Jerry because it needs to simulate battles and war.

Akixkisu

6:46 PM

@Axoren hp.

Axoren

We already have a robust non-violent conflict system.

Akixkisu

All of it is hp.

Whatever you call it.

Axoren

@Akixkisu We were looking for alternatives, if there were any.

Akixkisu

No there aren't any.

Axoren

Are you taking HP to be more general than it is?

GcL

6:47 PM

I found the Ars Magica 5 (AM5) combat system to be interesting

Akixkisu

HP is general.

But as far as interesting hp systems go I do like Splittermond if you can read German.

GcL

It's interesting in that the opponents accrue wounds which take a while to heal and generally interfere with the other actions of the game. It's also not a set system where X number of wounds of a certain type will kill or cripple an opponent.

Akixkisu

They do the compromise where there are different stages of being wounded.

GcL

So, not HP.

There are different kinds of wounds and their cumulative effect affects the success and risk of subsequent actions.

light, medium, heavy, incapacitating, and deadly wounding. E.g. take 1 to 5 damage from an attack, and accrue 1 light wound. Take 11 to 15, and that accrues a heavy wound. Wounds negatively affect the attack and defense totals. So as a character takes more damage, their attack and defense goes down... making taking even more damage likely.

There's also rules for scuffles... intentionally non-lethal combat that swaps out wounds for fatigue. Essentially fight until you or the opponent or both are exhausted. Fatigue also negatively affects attack, defense, and skill totals.

Akixkisu

The most fun, less direct, hp systems tend to deal with sub-system damage. Usually, this entails depletion of a state/condition or arriving at a state that will change consequences or outcomes of actions/incapacitation/inability to progress.

If you quantify you have a hp system, if you don't, then you have a barter system.

If you go ahead and punch Jerry, then you can also do that via a collaborative narrative that you barter among players. So players will present different narratives. Among yourselves, you decide how to go ahead.

GcL

7:06 PM

@Akixkisu Which game system does that?

Akixkisu

@GcL any system where your group decides to do that.

GcL

@Akixkisu Is there an example system that comes to mind that implements something like this example?

Akixkisu

It is interesting to ask what exactly the goal is and how to achieve it.

@GcL let me think.

I'm drawing a blank when it comes to systems that use this as their core mechanic. 8-Steps (by Norbert G. Matausch) comes kind of close.

Which is essentially 1. Get an eight-sided dice (1d8) for every participant.
2. Choose a genre and setting.
3. Choose a Mediator..
4. Create characters. You are now in character.
5. Conceive your Traits.
6. Describe yourself to the other players.
7. Co-create a narration.
8. Roll on tables when you disagree.

Tables are based on success and failures towards accomplishing a goal. Traits make you better at them (you also have a secret that you don't tell the other players).

Axoren

8:01 PM

@Akixkisu Is there literature on Barter Systems you can share?

It seems like you've got your ear more to the ground than I on things like it.

GcL

It sounds like this category of "barter systems" essentially answers the question of "what happens next in the story?" via "co-create a narration". Which sounds nice for people looking for more of lets tell a story together and less of let's run a combat model together.

Akixkisu

@GcL pretty much.

Axoren

@GcL Yeah, while it would be really bad as a basis for a combat model, it would still be interesting to see how these things tend to work in practice.

GcL

I imagine people looking for running a combat model will be less satisfied with the co-narration system and people interested in progressing a story are unlikely to find running a model particularly satisfying.

Akixkisu

@GcL it depends on the kind of people.

The stirct wargamer tends to dislike it, I agree.

Axoren

8:07 PM

The kind of system we're working on has aspects of wargaming at its core. We've developed a game loop that allows for both narrative and combat to weave nicely together

GcL

Sometimes running 5e, we don't like to run trivial combats and instead opt for a narration. E.g. the monk just doing the blocking all their attacks montage until they get tired and can commence with the actual negotiation or interrogation. We just don't need to roll 5 rounds of combat. Skip it with a narration!

Axoren

But in line with our goals for a combat system, we're having trouble seeing the forest because the HP tree is so big

Akixkisu

What kind of experience do you want to create?

And what about the HP tree is in your way of creating that kind of experience?

Axoren

Let me answer those in reverse: The HP Tree is just a metaphor for HP being the main measure we know and have experience with for determining combat's conclusion. The forest being the other options aside from HP we aren't familiar with.

GcL

@Akixkisu Are all combat models what you're calling a "HP tree" ?

Axoren

8:13 PM

As for the kind of experience, we have decided that "Adventure" corresponds to three primary pillars: Conflict, Exploration, and Downtime. We have Exploration and Downtime solved as for how we are seeking to meet those goals. We want Combat to be a sub-pillar of Conflict that is properly dealt with.

When we think "Adventure" we are going for the super-tropy style of adventure where the young people go out into the world and fight monsters kind

Akixkisu

@GcL no.

@Axoren I think this is good link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-10643-9_14

GcL

@Akixkisu What is an example of a non HP tree combat model?

Axoren

Let's just be clear, I was the one that said "HP tree" as a "See the forest through the trees" metaphor.

I think that might start muddying the discussion if it's not cleared up

@Akixkisu Bookmarked for reading later.

Akixkisu

@GcL one where advancement of narration depends on factors that aren't expressed in a direct quantity.

GcL

@Akixkisu Do you have an example game system that comes to mind that does that?

Akixkisu

8:20 PM

@GcL I posted the essential system of 8-Steps above. You can do that with that system.

Axoren

@Akixkisu This seems hard to mediate within the model and almost entirely depends on DM and player consensus. Doesn't this seem like it would stymie fast play?

GcL

@Akixkisu That seems like it's not modeling combat at all. It's essentially a narration cycle. Let's tell what happens. That is not what I intended to mean by model combat.

Akixkisu

@GcL what do you mean by model combat?

Axoren

The way I see combat models: Player action, Combat state -> new Combat state

Ideally, this sequence of actions would converge to a Combat state that is "over" and one side has "won"

Akixkisu

@Axoren it can stymie, but it also can go fast. It all depends on the collaboration of the players, and for some tables it isn't the right kind of system.

Axoren

8:25 PM

@Akixkisu Unfortunately, that seems a bit too open-ended for what we're going for. We have a non-violent conflict resolution system that is open-ended in opportunities, but rigid in mediation.

Akixkisu

@Axoren you can do that within 8-steps, but you have no clear instruction on how to do that except for rolling the tables and having the traits which includes your secret to modify the action that happens.

Axoren

We feel like this is the better approach for the game-feel we're going for.

GcL

For example. the board game Battleship is a squadron level naval combat model. The players partake in a simplified simulation of the steps in a naval engagement.

Axoren

Battleship is actually a REALLY good non-TTRPG example of Body Part HP, with a Lose Condition of "all body parts destroyed".

GcL

I'm trying to use model in the sense of a system that imitates the workings of a combat.

Akixkisu

8:30 PM

You can do that with narrative moves and opposing narrative moves.

But then you end up not having hp.

GcL

@Akixkisu When does that combat end?

Akixkisu

@GcL when the narrators decide that it ends.

Xirema

@linksassin Just be glad I remembered to specify "melee weapons" in the Cleaving Blow feature. An earlier draft forgot to include the qualifier "melee", and accidentally opened up abuse for 600' dual-wielded longbow AOE spam. 😛

GcL

@Akixkisu That's a filibuster system then? I can continue combat until I win simply by coming up with narrative moves longer than the other participants?

Akixkisu

If you want to limit the time you can use mechanical conditions like 2 arguments 2 objections, etc.

GcL

8:34 PM

@Akixkisu What decides which arguments and objections win?

Akixkisu

The same people, in 8 steps you have different kinds of resolutions if there is disagreement, you roll on the table and: Failure, and there's a new complication in completing the objective.

Or: Failure, but you get closer to accomplishing your objective.

What that exactly means is then again a collaborative effort.

GcL

That seems narrating while opposing rolls on a table to resolve a winner. Seems reasonable.

Akixkisu

Yup. Works well on some tables and is a disaster at other tables.

GcL

That level of abstraction can be applied to any narrative conflict. It seems like it would be equally applicable to trading, negotiating, magic invoking, motorcycle maintenance, lock-picking, or trans-dimensional space travel model.

Akixkisu

@GcL yup.

GcL

8:55 PM

@Axoren the 4th edition Ars Magica books is free if you feel like taking a look: warehouse23.com/products/ars-magica-4th-edition-core-rulebook

It's a mid 90's product and looks it.

Axoren

@GcL It use a body-part system?

GcL

No. It uses a wound system. Not sure how much of it would be portable to whatever you're doing. Notably, combat is very deadly and taking anything more than light wounds makes it go downhill for you in a hurry. Also, the wounds in the system affect other skills a character might participate it...e.g. spell casting, carpentry, giving a sermon, etc...

And recovery takes a long time and is not guaranteed. Makes combat a far riskier proposition than in other combat systems I've run. Also, it's not a particularly big part of that game.

Akixkisu

I also really like Dread where pulling Jenga pieces determines success.

They have a free quick reference sheet if you are curious about how that plays out @Axoren tiltingatwindmills.net/games/dread

^that is an hp system, btw.

Axoren

9:21 PM

I feel like Jenga would be more qualitative, wouldn't it? There are ways to play that can indefinitely maintain tower stability, iirc. It doesn't seem like pieces-pulled counts as damage necessarily.

Akixkisu

@Axoren well, eventually you run out of pieces.

Axoren

Aren't you supposed to put them on top and form a new layer?

This seems like a Jenga variant then. I'll definitely read it.

Akixkisu

@Axoren yes, you do that, but they way the rules layout the mechanics, you don't get to play in an optimal manner.

And once you run out of save pieces you will fail.

BESW

10:10 PM

@Axoren Stress is a pretty solid generic system, but I was specifically gesturing at the way conditions and consequences replace numerical countdowns with narrative pileup.

(Next time I run Fate I'm likely to entirely replace stress tracks with conditions so that every hit changes the landscape, rather than counting down toward changing the landscape.)

Conditions are also great at guiding play, because they're pre-defined lists of the kinds of obstacles your character is expected to encounter in this kind of story.

Kinda like how PbtA playbooks are lists of character-specific tropes.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov G. A. Cohen, a political philosopher.

nitsua60

10:41 PM

@NautArch I want to say I remember one at L15 or 16 in DotMM....

BESW

11:24 PM

@BESW not "replace," but "translate."

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