TRPG General Chat

12:33 AM

@Adeptus i'd say "glad it's not just me" but that feels weird to say since i was suspecting that was just a fundamental break in the game lol....

BESW

Yeah, definitely a pattern in my experience as well.

Ben

12:49 AM

Hello hello

BESW

Yawp

doppelgreener

o/

Bardic Wizard

@Ben hello!

How’re you doing?

nitsua60

1:04 AM

meh

can't seem to remember how to socially-distance

Mark Wells

@doppelgreener I suspect it's a fundamental design flaw that gets covered up nicely by the group dynamics of Steve Jackson and his friends.

doppelgreener

@MarkWells i'm very curious what kind of gameplay patterns could lead to avoiding this one

Mark Wells

Not playing to win.

doppelgreener

okay but i mean, what actions?

like, does it take making attacks on other players during the game?

Mark Wells

Maybe. I'm picturing something like arbitrarily picking someone at the table to be your enemy, and just messing with them throughout the game.

BESW

1:13 AM

If you use your blocking cards as soon as you get them, instead of hoarding them, that changes the game dramatically.

doppelgreener

our group follows this pattern:
1. level up without interference until a couple of people are reaching level 8.
2. the people at level 8 start getting some interference when it's opportune.
3. when someone enters combat at level 9, people throw them opposition because otherwise they'll lose, and that player responds with buffs because otherwise that palyer will lose. everyone piles on until everyone runs out of stuff. the player probably fails the combat.
4. the next player who enters combat at level 9 wins.

well "our group follows" more like "my past group did and also so did most other groups i sat down with"

Mark Wells

Right, exactly. We got into that pattern too. But I think BESW has basically the right idea: you all need to blow your resources instead of hoarding them.

doppelgreener

@BESW oh nice

BESW

And yeah, if you choose your targets based on the player at the table rather than their current position in the game, that's another way to significantly change how the game works (though I don't think it's necessarily better.)

doppelgreener

note that the above loop i'm describing isn't "playing to win", it's "doing what seems to make sense in the scope of the game"

Bardic Wizard

1:14 AM

@nitsua60 to post something I put in NAB a bit ago; chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/55968488#55968488

BESW

Yeah, the "hoard until someone's about to win" strategy is maximizing the effectiveness of your cards in the face of randomness.

Bardic Wizard

also known as the “negative feelings/wear a mask” bouquet

BESW

It's kinda like how D&D's d20 swinginess changes how we value dice-based vs automatic effects.

doppelgreener

@BESW also like, i don't see the purpose of interfering with someone's level 3->4 combat. there's no stakes in that which i'm worried about. and everyone else evaluates it the same way. and since we're not messing with them, they probably don't need to use more than one item. why would i spend my limited resources this way? i'd rather save it for whoever becomes an actual threat, which tends to be when someone's at level 8 or 9.

Mark Wells

@doppelgreener And that's playing to win.

doppelgreener

1:18 AM

@MarkWells no?

Mark Wells

You gotta Steve Jackson it. You're interfering with their level 3 -> 4 combat because you don't like the color of their shirt or something.

doppelgreener

it's playing the game under the terms the game laid out

BESW

It's playing to be effective. Which is not the same as winning: it's making sure your choices have weight.

Mark Wells

(In case it's unclear, I'm not disparaging that behavior. It's perfectly normal and expected in many tabletop games.)

BESW

The game's designed so that using obstructive cards early on feels less impactful than using them later. You don't have to have any interest in winning, to want the things you're doing to change the landscape of the game in noticeable ways.

doppelgreener

1:20 AM

i mean, "playing to win" appears to describe something exceptional, and as though winning is my all-consuming goal or some unusual preoccupation. i am, in fact, just trying to play the game, using the resources and tools it gave me, to do the things it's asking me to do. obviously part of that is someone wins, and obviously i'm supposed to try to be that person because that's precisely what it told me.

at each step, i am doing the things that seem to make sense in the framework the game has given me.

"target people because you don't like the color of their shirt" isn't "not playing to win", it's "doing something entirely outside of the framework the game has given me"

Mark Wells

Yes, and that's the design flaw. The game doesn't provide enough framework.

doppelgreener

sure

i just want to get away from this "the solution is to not play to win" and "that's playing to win" thing because that feels pretty reductive of what's going on

and not accurate

(because, as said, i don't think what i'm doing is "playing to win" so much as literally "playing the game")

Mark Wells

That would be why we see this pattern in so many groups: it's not exceptional. You follow the incentives the game offers and it's what you get.

doppelgreener

Right

AncientSwordRage

Sounds vaguely similar to everyone going for farms in Carcasonne

BESW

1:36 AM

Yet more reasons why I'll probably never finish Cardboard Monsters.

Adeptus

I also noticed something... most of the people I play with... "play nice". We mostly avoid maliciously giving someone a Curse or whatever, until it comes down to win-or-lose. We played with one guy at a party, who played mean. He'd curse people as soon as he picked one up, mess up people's lower-level combats, etc. And he ended up winning by a fairly large margin. That may be a more effective play style... but it was less fun for everyone else.

(Unless you're playing with friends, and everyone is on-board with cutthroat play)

Ben

@BardicWizard I'm in a bit of an odd place. I have lots of stuff to do, but it's all just waiting on other people. I've got a job to do tomorrow (which was confused with today), but I haven't received the information I need for the job, I need to book an appointment for sometime in the near future but I need to know what my availability is, since there's a lot of other jobs that will be happening... "soon", so I can't double book myself

I'm also moving in with my partner this weekend but I haven't really been able to do anything about that just yet since of everything else going on, but once that's done that'll be a big job checked off the list

So I'm currently at work, writing a program in the "Urgent, Not Important" pile rather than working on the "Important, Not Urgent" pile that's been sitting there for 2 years now, at 95% completion. Lol

@Adeptus What game is this?

BESW

2:23 AM

@Ben There's been a conversation about why so many peoples' experience with the card game Munchkin is consistently unhappy in particular ways.

Ben

Ah ok

Medix2

2:46 AM

@Adeptus I've really only ever played that game as a cooperative event or with strange and unusual rules everyone had to follow; always found those more fun

Hot RPG Questions

5:20 AM

13

Q: Can a player spend a fate point to declare it a full moon?

Is a player able to spend a fate point, to declare it a full moon? For instance, if they have a lycanthrope character who gains more power in the full moon. I know a fate point can be spent to declare an arrival/having an item and such like that, which is unrelated to an aspect and more setting r...

Hot RPG Questions

5:44 AM

10

Q: When using the evocation wizard's Sculpt Spells, can you protect fewer creatures than the maximum you are allowed?

The Evocation Wizard's Sculpt Spell ability allows the wizard to protect some creatures from their own evocation spells: When you cast an Evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spell’s level. The chosen creatures automatica...

dnd-5e spells class-feature wizard

Bardic Wizard

6:00 AM

@HotRPGQuestions this is a question I didn’t know existed and now I realize I just skipped that section since I’ve only played 1-2 wizards and none were evocation focused

BESW

@HotRPGQuestions I mean, even if you want to be a strict originalist you can achieve the effect just by picking a couple nearby ants to protect with your extra slots.

trogdor

lol

Ben

@HotRPGQuestions IOU 1 witty remark

trogdor

XD

Ben

6:26 AM

I just got hit by a wave of lethargy. Ugh.

I could feel it in my shoulders

trogdor

6:45 AM

that's where all my lethargy waves come from

XD

Medix2

11:46 AM

@ThomasMarkov Gosh, I debate asking "Are the attacks of SWS simultaneous?" but I think it'd just open the eldritch blast can of worms again

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Medix2 IIRC 'attacks are not simultaneous unless explicitly stated otherwise' is the default answer.

Medix2

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Oh yeah, it might be simpler than I thought. Though whether or not the multiple attack rolls constitute one attack is unclear, well... Hmmm maybe the spell says attack and not attack roll

Oh yay "Make a melee spell attack against each target", and it doesn't say they're simultaneous so they aren't. Awesome!

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 lol I have no idea.

Im gonna do my own mathematical analysis of SWS today.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

> If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.

PHB194, though not sure if applicable in context.

Medix2

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Go see Whirlwind Attack which is somehow only one attack (according to the SAC Doc, which is official rulings)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

11:57 AM

@Medix2 Whirlwind attack: see Multiattack. Multiattack (ranger): see page 93. Page 93: Extra Attack . . ?

TSR, why are your indexes looking as if you were bitten by White Wolf?!

Medix2

21

Q: Is the Hunter ranger's Volley feature considered a single attack or multiple attacks?

The Hunter ranger's 11th-level Multiattack feature has two options. One of them is Volley: You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and...

dnd-5e class-feature attack ranger

And also the eldritch blast question I linked a few messages up

Unrelated: I know that tags are supposed to be some sort of "emergent folksonomy", and I've more or less given up on them having rules/policies over just what is done / practices, but, this question has three tags unique to that question.

Do we just let new tags exist for a while (a year?) and see how much use they get? Do we add them to older questions that should have them? Do we just remove them (this seems an impossible option since it implies no tags would ever exist)? Something else entirely (such as: there is no clear answer)?

I'm also unsure whether those links are to sites that pirate / go around paywalls

Thomas Markov

Ive retagged.

Archives of Nethys is official PF host.

Maybe official is the wrong word

I think they are legal.

Carcer

they're the officially endorsed host

aiui

Medix2

Even though the feature links to a purchasing page?

Thomas Markov

See here: 2e.aonprd.com/Licenses.aspx

Medix2

12:07 PM

Guess they're part of some random free thing somewhere

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 ???

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov If you click any of the "Player Advance Guide" links, you're brought to a page that asks you to purchase said book

Carcer

@Medix2 it tells you what the specific source that content is from so you can buy it if you like

d20pfsrd does the same thing I think

Thomas Markov

"This website is not published, endorsed, or specifically approved by Paizo Publishing."

Medix2

@Carcer So I assume it's also part of a free SRD or similar?

Thomas Markov

12:10 PM

paizo.com/community/communityuse

Would meta or main be more appropriate to ask the question?

"Is this place legal"

Carcer

@Medix2 ah, I see what you're getting at now. Hooray, licensing

Medix2

Probably LAW Stack ngl...

Carcer

I dunno about PF2 but PF1 had to be published with quite permissive licensing because it's 3e-era OGL-based

which is why something like d20pfsrd can exist

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Notably the Permissions section exists, though... Times like this I wish I took more courses in law

Carcer

I think it works as a main site question in that it's something that an expert in RPGs would conceivably have particular knowledge of

the OGL was a big deal after all

we've also fielded questions about what content people can legally use in self-published works etc. on the mainsite, so I don't think it's inappropriate

Medix2

12:17 PM

@Carcer Yup, sometimes to... Mixed results

-3

Q: We are not lawyers. Why do we allow law topics?

This is a site about Role-Playing Games. We are experts on Role-Playing Games. There is a sickening number of questions about law, that are only tangentially related to games, and they are being treated as on topic. This is highly problematic: The questions are almost always far too broad. ...

discussion on-topic legal-questions

Two examples of previous questions: "Can I sell a supplement that references non-SRD Cleric Domains?" and "Who owns content posted at Paizo.com forums?"

KorvinStarmast

12:53 PM

@Medix2 I wish I'd have thought to look around the twitter verse for a JC tweet when I was forming my answer; glad you did. Thanks. Also, I like your question on the PF2 site, but I can't be sure it isn't better on meta than on main. My gut is on main since it would be more useful to more people seeing it there ...

Medix2

@KorvinStarmast We have other legal Mainsite questions... though we probably also have legal Metasite questions somewhere XD

KorvinStarmast

agree on both

Medix2

Well... I didn't find any in my brief search

Oh there is: "Whose Law do we follow? and "What constitutes copyright infringement?" and "How would I cite a question or answer on RPG.SE as a source? Does this site fall under fair use?" hmmmm

Probably no good answer

Thomas Markov

Im starting to think SWS is too strong for a 5th level spell.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I've seen people make it fourth level so Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters can use it

KorvinStarmast

1:01 PM

@ThomasMarkov Nope. I looked at the damage analysis Blue Moon did and he left out one important bit: you have to roll to hit. It's only OP if you give advantage on all of the attacks (which JC says isn't how it works).

RevenantBacon

@Medix2 Um, excuse me, what?

KorvinStarmast

And also, for a ranger it comes on line at level 17. At that point, enemies are gigantic bags of HP.

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast Against 5 AC 15 targets at +7 to hit, it has an expected damage output of 123.

KorvinStarmast

Now a bard at level 10 with it; heh, nice use of magical secrets. And your stated edge case is five targets, which won't always be the case. You reduce the number of targets and the aggregate damage goes down ...

It's a niche spell, not an 'always use' spell.

@ThomasMarkov Using your structure there, a fireball against 10 orcs does how much damage? .😁

Thomas Markov

whats their dex save bonus?

KorvinStarmast

1:04 PM

If they all save, it does 130. Their save bonus is +1

If none save it does 270

Thomas Markov

Expected damage of 231.

KorvinStarmast

(Not sure where you got AC 15 from, at tier 4 (Ranger spell level 5) AC 15 seems low from the high tier monsters I've seen.

And for one orc it does either 27 or 13 on average.

Thomas Markov

Why are you stuck on a Tier 4 ranger here?

KorvinStarmast

Because it's a Ranger spell.

Thomas Markov

A 9th level wizard can get this spell.

Its a wizard spell too.

KorvinStarmast

1:07 PM

I know this. And if the wizard ends the attack Right Next To an enemy at the end of their turn, the can't use another spell to move away until next turn. It's a great big "kick me" sign for wizard. (Or you could call it "high risk, high reward")

But at least I now see your point on the AC 15/Tier 2 analysis.

My white room analysis case included a Fighter 2 Bard 10 and used action surge. 😎

Transcript for