TRPG General Chat

12:02 AM

@Ben That's a very idealistic view of science.

The complexity classes (local vs global) in question are recursively inseparable, which is a fancy word meaning "there can't be an automatic procedure for telling problems of these kinds apart such that it works for all problems"

Also, fun convergences of things. I'm working on my thesis today. I also finished reading a book that was (retroactively) another person's Master's thesis, a fact I remembered only after finishing it. And I watched a few episodes of Over the Garden Wall, and the novel's title – or rather, what the novel's title means – appeared in one of the episodes.

(the novel in question is Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut, and it's named after a string game)

Ben

fair enough. That's kinda cool (I think I follow it, but only just)

on a separate note, I have a situation with raising 2 boys. I was going to ask a q over on Parenting.se, but I'm not exactly sure what the question is yet.

user15026

12:25 AM

@KorvinStarmast ....trust me, as someone who lives with trauma related to past gaslighting, I see it all over Leverage (which I have watched, in full, once, and was trying a rewwatch and realized it was all about making the "bad" people get justice with mostly gaslighting techniques that are acceptable because it's the "bad" people. So it's like oh well we can cause harm in the name of justice, which is...not great, plus the gaslighting just makes me feel awful.

user15026

(I mean sure, it's amusing because we like when the good guys win, but it does paint this really weird veneer of acceptability of the process, if you are doing it for the "right" reasons.)

BESW

Yeah, there's a lot of "but it's okay when we do it" in escapist storytelling of that sort, which usually goes entirely unexamined because... escapism?

(cf D&D's main story loop)

@Ben Hm?

@kviiri I used to know a lot of string figure techniques, but cat's cradle was always a bit off for me, dunno why.

Ben

@BESW So, I'm a "stepfather" of 2 boys (I've been dating their mother for almost a year and they've already started calling me "dad", which everyone is comfortable with). Their mother has been on her own with raising the boys for most of their lives (they are 6 and 8), but now that I'm in the picture, I'm trying to be a bit more hands-on to dealing with the problems, both for the boy's sake, and to relieve their mum

The 8 yo is very switched on. He knows how to figure things out, he knows what he wants and what he needs to do to get it. The 6yo is less so, but he's still impulsive, and the two of them are very much attached at the hip. If you find one of them, the other is sure to be not far away

So far, I have had a good effect - they used to lie incessantly to avoid getting in trouble, but I have managed to implement the "If you tell the truth, you won't get in as much trouble", which has worked immensely. They immediately own up, and we haven't had a lie in over a month now.

The issue we are currently dealing with, is impulse control, and "following the rules". We've got some posters around the place as reminders of the rules (Don't get out of bed before 7; not tv unless mum or dad say so; etc). But we often wake up at 2am out of habit now because we dfind the boys have often snuck out to watch tv or play games

Our last attempt has worked, because we've locked out access to the console, unplugged the aerial and have hidden the remote when we go to bed, but the boys have found the remotes in the past, and "mum's room is Out of Bounds" doesn't mean much to and 8 yo that wants something

Bardic Wizard

12:48 AM

@BESW I love cat’s cradle! It’s probably related to my love for anything involving fiber, since it’s sort of knots and sort of ... not.

(Pun completely intended)

BESW

@BardicWizard For three or four years I took my string everywhere, but I did a lot more solo string figures.

Ben

The reason for the drastic measures is because they have been playing games they should not be (Horizon Zero Dawn, Dark Souls, Spiderman), as well as stealing people's phones to download and play Among Us. This has come after I began to feel like a broken record, talking to the boys about following the rules, listening, thinking, doing the right thing vs doing the wrong thing, rewards vs consequences.

I'm a t a bit of a loss of what to do. Have I gone overboard? Have I not done enough? Should I stay where I am and just keep at it?

I understand boys will be boys, and kids will do what they will do, the best I can do is just make sure they aren't exposed to the wrong things.

I guess I just want a second opinion on the matter?

user15026

@BESW I always wanted to learn more solo ones but for some reason I never did. I think this was because it was before looking stuff up on the internet every time you wanted to know something was not a thing

BESW

@Ash I had books! Excellent, moldy books.

user15026

@BESW I remember seeing books about string stuff in the book orders and I was tempted but the 10 for $10 Animorphs or Babysitters Club sets always won out :P

BESW

12:57 AM

@Ben I'd be more focused on the principles and virtues involved, than about exposure to particular out-of-age content. I Am Not A Parent, but I know that some state schools in your area are hosting Baha'i-inspired classes for the development of spiritual qualities.

They're open to all and don't attempt to convert the kids, and I've seen very good outcomes from the program in my area. I dunno how your schools are handling this sort of program during the pandemic, but if that's not an option you might see if the Baha'is in your area have come up with a physical-distancing-appropriate alternative?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 I took another shot at the steel wind strike question.

BESW

I particularly mention it because, in my area at least, the program is not taking spiritual education out of the parents' control; there's a big focus on collaboration with the parents so that the kids get a coherent experience at home as well, and the parents know what virtues the kids are studying so that conversations at home can build on the schema.

user15026

I'm not in either of your areas, but can confirm in my corner of Canada, the experience is similar, if that's any help.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW I’ve done those a lot too! It’s one of my favorite ways of fiddling in school bc I can do it without looking and it fits in a pocket so I don’t get in trouble (even though my teachers generally understand that I have to be doing something with my hands, and it’s usually either yarn-adjacent or destroying a piece of paper, there’s some teachers who don’t understand and make me put friendship bracelets, tiny crochet things, or other yarn in my bag)

BESW

@BardicWizard I'm glad most of them understand!

Ben

1:08 AM

Well, I am putting a heavy focus on "fair and unfair" and "thinking about others", I'll admit I'm not currently involved overly much in their school lives, I work 8-5, so by the time I get home they've already got bored of telling people about "what they're doing at school".

I do know that they have religion in school (I.e. Christianity), which is very odd for a State school IME

Chirstianity specifically, not a specific presence of spiritual studies

BESW

My understanding is that Australian schools offer opt-in Special Religious Education classes as part of a Better Balanced Futures programme.

Ben

Best Ever Spiritual Wizard

Sorry, just popped into my head lol

BESW

But the Baha'i children's classes is part of a global community-building effort out of the Ruhi Institute in Colombia; it happens to be offered in some Australian schools, but in almost every part of the world people are learning how to do the classes for their own neighbourhoods.

Ben

@BESW Yeah from what I've heard it does sound like that. Like "Sunday School", but during the week

BESW

The curriculum focuses on actionable virtues like trustworthiness, patience, and courage, rather than on historical or doctrinal learning.

The link above has resources for learning more about the programs and getting in touch with people who can tell you whether/how it's available in your neighbourhood/school.

And I urge you to look into other similar options that are available to you! Just because this is the one I know about doesn't mean it's the best for you.

I just really like this one because it's one of the only programs I've encountered that puts a really big effort on keeping the parents involved in their own kids' spiritual development rather than going "yeah, give 'em to us for a couple hours a week and we'll take care of that." Developing virtues isn't a "few hours a week" thing, it's gotta be modeled and reinforced in the home.

Just--you don't have to, and shouldn't have to, do it all on your own. Community is a really important part of raising kids. It's good for the kids to see lots of different ways to be good people, and it's good for the parents to have the support.

Yuuki

1:23 AM

@Ash I mean, Leverage is one of my favorite shows but I definitely agree it has a lot of protagonist-centered morality.

Ben

@BESW That definitely does sound good

user15026

@Yuuki Thats kinda the entire point of the thing, yeah, and they use gaslighting techniques for so much of it

Bardic Wizard

@BESW yeah. It’s also good for assemblies, worship services, all school liturgies, and long car rides.

BESW

@BardicWizard I made a lot of friends in airports by pulling out my bright rainbow-colored string and doing amusing things with it.

@Ben I hope you can find something nearby! It's really best when the whole process is as neighbourly as possible rather than involving strangers who don't understand the local reality.

I'm technically trained in teaching these classes, but my skill and experience is in facilitating the adult programs (which is where I got a lot of my GMing techniques, too!)

And I'm sure there are other people with more practical experience with kids, like Nits, who will have other suggestions as well.

Ben

The input is certainly valued :D

Yuuki

1:40 AM

@Ash The main conceit of the show is that "we do bad things to bad people" but they don't nearly enough of "these are bad guys doing bad things and, you know, bad guys".

user15026

.....yes I am aware?

user15026

It's not really the main point I was trying to make

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov Realized the answer on this question. You'd need to have taken Hide somehow before blinking.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Related questions - go check out my answers on the steel wind strike questions.

Adeptus

2:07 AM

@Ash Hustle is kind of the British equivalent. I haven't watched it in a while, and not while looking for gaslighting, but... it's probably there - they're con men, lying is what they do. In Hustle, they take a "robin hood" approach - they bait rich people with (fake) unethical opportunities to make money. In one episode, they get conned by some less well-off people, and when they realise, they're like "fair enough... nicely done..."

nitsua60

3:01 AM

@trogdor Play Ben Folds's stuff--you'll fit right in =)

Ben Folds Five - Underground (from Sessions at West 54th)

►

nitsua60

3:14 AM

3d4

Dice Service

4

1

Ben

@nitsua60 BESW suggested you might have some input to my previous issue

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I think you assume that the vanishing lasts throughout the spell and attacks and also that it adds anything mechanical (Invisibility). I'm sure I can find other example of flavor text that simply cannot be flavor text

I suppose there's the opening to the Paladin's Divine Sense. But also, "there is no flavor text" has never been something I liked much anyway XD

nitsua60

@Ben Oof. There's a lot there to chew on. Lemme think a bit. (My first instinct is that there's so much groundwork laid in those infant/toddler/preschool years that it's hard to replicate, but maybe the principles still apply....) I'm going to let it simmer on the back burner, and poke me again tomorrow when I've pulled together some coherent thoughts.

Ben

3:29 AM

That's fair. I haven't been around for a while so yeah, there's a lot of habitual behavior that needs to be changed.

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And ty muchly :)

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trogdor

4:49 AM

@nitsua60 I think he at least knows what noise is going to come out when he does it though :P

sorry my internet went out,.. slightly before you said that and only came back just now

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8:55 AM

4

Q: Does Blink grant advantage on the first attack roll after you return?

When you Blink you leave the normally visible area. Because the attacker doesn't see you coming when you blink back in, would you have advantage on the first attack roll?

dnd-5e spells advantage-and-disadvantage

kviiri

10:17 AM

@BESW I only know the string game because of the novel. I have a vague idea that some girls played in the same manner with rubber bands at my school, though

BESW

Games played on the hands with a loop of string have very very old roots in an almost shocking number of cultures across the world.

kviiri

Yep, it's rather surprising! (The novel flat-out calls it "the oldest game in existence" or something along those lines)

The novel, sadly, doesn't concern itself much with the string figure game. Or actual cats in cradles. The string figure is referenced a few times in the text, specifically to point out that it doesn't look anything like a cat or a cradle. :>

BESW

@kviiri I'd consider mancala to be in the running for that one, too, but yes.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I would imagine the oldest game in existence (at least when distinguished from play, which can be less structured than a game) would be catch (the running and chasing kind), or some sort of throwing contest, or maybe climbing and/or jumping games.

Well, 'in existence' is too broad. In human history at least.

BESW

@kviiri Reminds me of "The Rat Race" in Mrs. Frisby.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

10:22 AM

Something that requires no toolworking, and that kids seem to reinvent independently.

kviiri

@BESW I looked up the specific quote, it's referred to as "one of the oldest games".

"For maybe a hundred thousand years or more, grownups have been waving tangles of string in their children's faces. No wonder kids grow up crazy. A cat's cradle is nothing but a bunch of X's between somebody's hands, and little kids look and look and look at all those X's. . ."

"And?"

"No damn cat, and no damn cradle."

It's a great novel. Rather cynical in many ways though, as the character's rant at an ancient string game should suggest!

BESW

Heh. That's... pretty typical of Vonnegut, I think. Very clever and biting on the surface, but it only works because his characters remain almost deliberately ignorant of the context of the real things he's treating as symbols. (chances are very good that it was never named for a cat, but that it evolved through playground repetition from another name like "scratch cradle" or a word in another language entirely)

He's got something to say, and a clever way to say it, and he's not gonna let anything get in his way.

kviiri

yeah, that's my understanding on the etymology as well

BESW

Side note: only the first "form" in the game is actually called the cat's cradle, and the whole game takes its name from that first form. As the form is passed from person to person, the chosen method of passing it turns it into other forms with their own names.

kviiri

I think I'll re-read Bluebeard next, I was in a bit of a haze when I read it the last time, but as luck would have it I often find the second reading much better anyway

BESW

10:33 AM

The "game"ness of it lies in (a) the skill of passing the string without collapsing it irretrievably, ending the game; and (b) the creativity in choosing which form to use while taking it from the previous player, because the form you choose will inform the choices the next person can make--and might challenge them if they don't know the form you've chosen.

You can, for example, accidentally or on purpose end the game by taking the string in a way that makes a form that your group knows no way of passing. (there are forms which don't seem to have ANY way to be passed)

trogdor

@BESW yeah I kinda thought it was mancala

BESW

(I always have to take a minute to remember the generic name mancala, because I always just think of it as chongka'.)

trogdor

lol

I always keep thinking of it as "that game with shells" XD

AncientSwordRage

@BESW sounds like maths to me

Quentin

And now my brain has gone to Demolition Man

AncientSwordRage

10:44 AM

@Quentin you too?

three seashells, right?

Quentin

You don't know how to use the three seashells?

3

kviiri

11:19 AM

There was a Finnish version of mancala once marketed under the name "Kolo-kolo", meaning "Hole-hole".

I shouldn't even know this because this is back to at least the 1970's, probably even further back, but it had a rather period-appropriate casually racist newspaper advertisement that pops up on image boards every now and then

BESW

Lovely.

kviiri

Eeyup.

It strains the imagination to think of an advertiser who couldn't think of a better way to advertise the timeless board game classic, but here we are. :<

On another note related to classic board games, I've been an avid board gamer since I-don't-remember-when but I've yet to learn to play backgammon.

My understanding of it is that it's vaguely like mancala.

BESW

Hmm, yeah, I can see that connection.

Find a way for us to play online and I'll teach ya some time.

kviiri

Sure

Maybe in a few weeks, once my thesis monster is slain

Maybe eventually we can evolve to frontgammon

lisardggY

11:47 AM

hola

BESW

[wave]

kviiri

12:05 PM

hi o/

Also weirdly heartwarming event of today

I caught my roomie whistling a song I've been practicing on the piano

BESW

Aww

kviiri

I hope I've made a catchy impression in a good way, not just "annoying earworm" way, but either way... an impression ;D

nitsua60

12:41 PM

@kviiri I never thought of it that way but, yeah, definitely some shared DNA there. Or convergent evolution. I suppose "move many discrete objects along track and the first to complete all wins" feels pretty Jungian.

@BESW I've certainly seen it referenced all over the place as the oldest board game.

kviiri

@nitsua60 Regarding convergent evolution, are aware of the tafl family of board games?

They are ancient Norse games with notable parallels with chess

Also interestingly, they're very asymmetric games: one player plays a besieged king, the other plays the besieging armies. The latter has more pieces but the former can win by escaping the board with their king

BESW

@nitsua60 See also senet, I think.

And then there's the Royal Game of Ur, which is very likely a direct ancestor of backgammon.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

12:59 PM

@nitsua60 Is there actual solid evidence behind that reference though? (I am of course looking at baduk as the contender for the title, what with evidence dating to 500ish BCE.)

BESW

Tom Scott vs Irving Finkel: The Royal Game of Ur | PLAYTHROUGH | International Tabletop Day 2017

►

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Huh, Nine Men's Morris (a game which I only know vaguely from exposure to a CD with 50 Western games in the 90s) apparently dates to -1400 possibly. thevintagenews.com/2016/11/02/…

nitsua60

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I have no idea--that's not a rabbit hole I've jumped too far down. I believe I've seen mention of prehistoric mancala boards at burial sites, but can't testify to it.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@nitsua60 Yeah, I've encountered mentions of those, but whether those are mancala boards and/or some other game-dating-related issues seem to be in dispute among archaeologists, which is why I wondered about how backed up the claim was.

BESW

@nitsua60 One thing about mancala is, it doesn't need a board like many other games: the version I know is, still, "supposed" to be played by scooping out holes in the sand, and using a permanent board is kinda... gauche.

Like yeah everybody does it, but it's a concession to the restraints of colonial life.

user15026

1:12 PM

@kviiri aww I like that

nitsua60

@BESW Headcanon: mancala player dies ca. 40K BCE. Friends think "wait, what if there's no sand in the afterlife?" And thus is the mancala board born.

BESW

@nitsua60 I like it!

Certainly modern archaeology considers senet to have the strongest case for "oldest board game," but I strongly suspect that's down to cultural elements: both of any given ancient culture to make permanent boards, and of modern archaeologists to pay more attention to certain cultures and certain kinds of evidence.

user15026

@kviiri me neither! It's one of those games that always showed up in those like x in one board game sets that had like chess and checkers and so on but I never learned

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

There's probably a lot of innate ambiguity as far as dug-up game-related tools are. There's this joke that 'it must have been used for ritual purposes' is archaeologese for 'I have no way of confirming the purpose of this item', but every joke has a fraction of a joke, and the other fraction. And said other fraction may be applicable to games - are these stones a tool of voting, a ritual tool, or igo stones meant to be placed on the board drawn on any convenient surface like wood or ground?

goodguy5

Does anyone have the verbiage handy on fall damage? Is it 500 feet per round, or is it if the damage is <= 500 feet, it happens instantly?

e.g. - If I started my turn by walking off a 500 foot cliff, then casting some transportation spell and doing it again... what happens?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:17 PM

@goodguy5 Game/edition? 500 feet is a lot.

goodguy5

oh sorry, 5e

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Shadowrun or Vampire?

BESW

@Ash I will also play backgammon with you!

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

If D&D5, then those rounds are 6 seconds long IIRC.

goodguy5

Xanathar's guide:

"When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted."

user15026

1:19 PM

@BESW yay! It always felt like it would difficult to figure out.

BESW

@Ash It's one of those "simple rules, complex strategy" things.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@goodguy5 S=½at². For t=6, and a=10m/s², that's . . . 180m or 590 feet, unless I miscalculated something. So Xanathar seems to be close enough.

And damage-wise, PHB gives 1d6 per 10 feet it fell, up to 20 dice.

goodguy5

Yes, but I'm trying to discern if this rules question is worth asking the stack:

Can you fall any number of 500 foot increments in a turn, so long as they are each terminated at the end of those particular 500 feet?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 The answer (at least by RAW) is, annoyingly, yes.

Since falls are "instantaneous"

Thomas Markov

Multiple 500 feets per turn though?

David Coffron

1:26 PM

> When you fall from a great height you instantly descend up to 500 feet.

Then again, a GM could say that a fall less than 500 feet isn't a great height

(as "great height" isn't defined by the ruels)

Thomas Markov

" If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn."

Seems to be 500 feet per round.

goodguy5

I mean, it expressly calls out that "up to 500 feet" is within the limits of "a great height", it's only technically ambiguous that 495 feet is "a great height"

David Coffron

@ThomasMarkov That may be the intent, but the rules don't say that

Thomas Markov

I think they do though

"If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule.

When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted."

NautArch

@goodguy5 is your question assuming the actually v us of the optional xanathar rule?

David Coffron

1:28 PM

If I am presented with a staircase that has a 500 foot riser, then I am never "still falling"

Thomas Markov

This is pretty explicit about 500 feet per turn.

David Coffron

I instantly fall to the next step

goodguy5

@NautArch define "actually"? Like physics?

David Coffron

@ThomasMarkov Not within the same turn, only in the "still falling" instance

BESW

Ah, yes, the Translocational Law of Gravity. Any object in freefall will teleport 500 feet toward the center of the largest nearby gravitational mass, until it ceases to be in freefall.

goodguy5

1:29 PM

^

NautArch

@goodguy5 sorry, weird issues with chat on phone. I meant should we assume you're using the xanathar optional rule?

goodguy5

yes

David Coffron

@ThomasMarkov I'm genuinely not seeing where you ar reading anything explicit. The rules explicate only the following: The first 500 feet of a fall is instantaneous. If you are still falling on the "next turn", then your instant descent is instead at the end of those turns.

If every fall is 500 feet or less, you never reach the 500 feet per turn rule

MikeQ

Maybe you only fall the length of 1 millipede because they have around 500 feet

goodguy5

XD

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:32 PM

The whole 'instantaneous' phrasing makes me think of 6 seconds as being Planck Time in the system. (Then again, I come from a system where 1 second is Planck Time.)

David Coffron

@mods Can we get a chatroom for this comment chain. I suspect it will continue.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Well, other rules clarify that this is not true (in particular, the rule that clarifies that 6-seconds is merely the window within turns are taken, not that every turn takes 6-seconds to achieve)

Thomas Markov

Im confused now.

NautArch

@goodguy5 can you reexplain your scenario again?

David Coffron

Imagine a staircase, with the following dimensions: 500 foot riser, 5 foot tread.

Every 5 feet of movement, you could instantly descend the 500 foot fall, thus traveling incredibly far downward (assuming you can tank through the bludgeoning damage, and not fall prone)

goodguy5

^

Tbh, the usecase I had in my was teleporting an enemy 500 feet in the air over and over, but it doesn't look like any mechanics support that.... at least not without some planar shennanigans

NautArch

1:38 PM

Dimension doors

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@DavidCoffron Is this one of those 'he's at negative HP, quick, drown him!' things? ^_^

BESW

Time reversibility

A mathematical or physical process is time-reversible if the dynamics of the process remain well-defined when the sequence of time-states is reversed. A deterministic process is time-reversible if the time-reversed process satisfies the same dynamic equations as the original process; in other words, the equations are invariant or symmetrical under a change in the sign of time. A stochastic process is reversible if the statistical properties of the process are the same as the statistical properties for time-reversed data from the same process. == Mathematics == In mathematics, a dynamical system...

NautArch

But yeah, theyd be able to do that if they survive the damage

goodguy5

@NautArch Well.... that's only self and willing.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 If you are immune to bludgeoning damage and have infinite movement, you could fly up while grappling an enemy, both fall, and repeat

NautArch

1:39 PM

Hmmmm

Glyphs of warding?

goodguy5

@NautArch but yea, one could DD oneself upward twice

@NautArch oooh

David Coffron

Q: Who gets teleported when a Glyph of Warding with Teleportation in it is triggered?

I am a player in a campaign vs campaign game (players versus players), and was trying to find a way to defend my evil wizard tower. One idea was to create an unavoidable trap to teleport players out of a building. If I imbue the spell Teleport into Glyph of Warding using a 7th level spell slo...

dnd-5e spells teleportation traps

BESW

I once saw an epic character with significant damage reduction abilities, and a character with flight, drill into a closed underground chamber simply by having the second character drop the first from a great height repeatedly.

David Coffron

IN particular, my answer talks about dimension door as an alternative.

@BESW Hmph.. I feel like I would rule that the ground has too high of a damage threshhold.

Medix2

Potentially, with enough movement, you could jump repeatedly while grappling and wearing Armor of Invulnerability

BESW

1:42 PM

@DavidCoffron At level 32, when the guy you're dropping can treat his entire body as a natural weapon...

goodguy5

Alright, so you have a 500 foot ceiling.

You cast as many glyphs of warding as you want where the spell is dimension door and the target is 500 feet up and 5 feet over (over another glyph with another dimension door) - recurse until dead.

Thomas Markov

So can we talk about what it means to vanish?

9

Q: Do you get advantage on the Steel Wind Strike spell's attacks because you "vanish"?

The spell steel wind strike (XGtE, p. 166) says that you: vanish to strike like the wind. (Emphasis added) At first glance you might read this as an inconsequential part of the description. But strictly speaking there is no flavour text in spell descriptions. Vanishing implies being unseen, whi...

dnd-5e spells advantage-and-disadvantage

Medix2

To me, it's just flavor?

Just like prismatic spray begins with flavor that isn't rules, as does Divine Sense

David Coffron

@Medix2 The relevant question is does it render you unseen in order to gain advantage according to:

> When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

Thomas Markov

So you just dont buy the "there is no flavor text" interpretation?

Medix2

1:45 PM

Yes, and to me it doesn't do... Anything at all

David Coffron

Q: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?

Is there any evidence, in the rules or from developer comments, that parts of the description of a D&D 5e spell is “only flavor text” and should be ignored for determining what happens in-game? Is there evidence to the contrary?

dnd-5e spells

Thomas Markov

So you vanish...but you dont?

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I think it's a bad rule and that it makes some spells... Unreadable

BESW

Ooof, another iteration of haggling over a spell description because "descriptions are mechanics" but the writers don't actually write 'em like that? Have fun with that, I burned out on it a decade ago.

David Coffron

@Medix2 The troubel with ruling that way is it becomes all but impossible to distinguish between what is and isn't flavor text.

Medix2

1:47 PM

But I know plenty of people use it (hi burning hands and evasion)

@DavidCoffron Yeah, except that flavor is almost always the first section that contains no game-defined terms...

But, I agree, it's a mess. And if we assume there's no such thing as flavor, then you do literally vanish; you then presumably strike your enemies incredibly quickly (like the wind) while(?) vanished and are thus unseen

Thomas Markov

So youre saying you just don't actually vanish?

David Coffron

@Medix2 well take the invisibility spell then. The first line says "A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends." Is this flavor or mechanics? It doesn't say the creature "gains the invisible condition" like other condition effects do

I know that's a particularly obtuse example, but it contends my point

Medix2

@DavidCoffron Both "creature" and "invisible" are game terms

David Coffron

@Medix2 Invisible is never defined outside of the condition.

Medix2

I don't believe invisibility ever says "gains the invisible condition" also, do all other conditions really say that? Stubbed? Unconscious?

goodguy5

1:49 PM

If you're a DBZ fan, it's like that.

You blip from one place to another to attack.

David Coffron

@Medix2 No, they don't. Prone is another one that almost never does

goodguy5

You do vanish, from your original location, but you show up again in other locations

So you're not invisible, but you do vanish.

Medix2

@DavidCoffron So?? It's still literally a game-defined condition?

@DavidCoffron Yeah so they are game-defined terms and your argument doesn't make sense?

@goodguy5 That was all of why I said you strike while(?) invisible XD

It doesn't have to say "You gain the prone condition" because to be prone is a game-defined, non-flavor state. So the same goes for being invisible

David Coffron

@Medix2 Antilife shell:

> A shimmering barrier extends out from you in a 10-foot radius and moves with you, remaining centered on you and hedging out creatures other than undead and constructs.

hedging is not defined in the rules, so is that line flavor text

If so, what is an "affected creature" in the rest of the description

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Fun fact re: thorn whip, You would take damage from armor of agathys if you thorn whip someone with armor of agathys.

Medix2

1:53 PM

@DavidCoffron It tells you, right there? "Creatures that are not undead nor construct"

David Coffron

@Medix2 Butaccording to you that line is flavor text

Medix2

Now I think what you're trying to say is "If part of this sentence is flavor, isn't the whole thing?" And... No

David Coffron

"creatures that are no undead and constructs are "hedged out"

Medix2

I'm fairly certain it almost immediately afterwards describes precisely what hedging out is, no?

David Coffron

Not that they are prevented from moving

@Medix2 Maybe, but if you are interpreting parts of the spell as flavor text, you could come to a different conclusion

Medix2

1:55 PM

> The barrier prevents an affected creature from passing or reaching through.

That is the mechanical explanation for the non-game-defined words "hedge out"

If you want to add even more effects to the spell so it better matches a natural English meaning of "to hedge out" , you certainly may, I just wouldn't

David Coffron

@Medix2 Confusion says:

> This spell assaults and twists creatures' minds, spawning delusions and provoking uncontrolled action.

The rest of the spell effect never makes any mention of these delusions. Is that flavor or not?

Medix2

@DavidCoffron That's the flavorful text at the start. I don't believe it to be literal rules

But I do believe we've both made our points and neither is likely to ever move

David Coffron

@Medix2 So your judgment is "if the line is mechanically relevant it is spell text, otherwise its flavor"

Medix2

But also fun with prismatic spray:

> Eight multicolored rays of light flash from your hand. Each ray is a different color and has a different power and purpose

Thomas Markov

I just dont see how "Spells dont always do what they say they do" is a tenable position.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:58 PM

@ThomasMarkov Thorn Whip (30-foot mêlée cantrip) + War Caster + Spell Sniper (double the range of attack-rolling spells). 60-foot Attacks of Opportunity!

Thomas Markov

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica +sorcerer distant spell = 120ft. So Armor of Agathys can hit a reature 120 feet away.

Medix2

@DavidCoffron Just about, yeah. I mean it's not like I've examined every spell in the books and done exceptionally serious thinking on it. But I've found it makes all my players have much more fun

@ThomasMarkov Please, explain prismatic spray's 8 colors and how one ray of light can hit the entirety of a 60-foot cone

David Coffron

@Medix2 Sidenote: To clarify, I don't rule the way I argue at the table. If someone wants burning hands to look like a breath weapon I don't stop them. I'm just discussing the RAW

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