TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:03 AM

Can somebody help me find a date for the third printing of Troika?

Someone_Evil

Last edit to the itch.io page was 24. sept, which seems like a likely candidate

nitsua60

would recommend a lifepath chargen (traveller's notably got it, though its "survival" roll seems to be a polarizing element) to round out the list so you can experience it and decide for yourself.
I'd draw a distinction between the systems that "gamify" backstory-generation as opposed to lifepath-chargen. In the first there's a backstory generated in a minigame that minimally impacts your character's abilities/features/resources (if at all), in the second the minigame completely/largely determines those things. (Cyberpunk's an example of the first, Traveller of the second.)

@BardicWizard is that not all versions? Was there a version without the survival roll? (Though, come to think of it, does MGT2 just have you take some grievous, career-ending wound if you fail the survival roll?)

trogdor

12:21 AM

Troika?

Someone_Evil

I assumed: Troika! Numinous Edition

BESW

Specifically I'm looking to nail down a date for a text change which I'm told first appeared in "the 3rd printing of the Numinous Edition of Troika."

(I want to determine whether the edit was definitely made before a particular conversation I know someone had with the creator.)

trogdor

12:38 AM

ah

that's some pretty specific information you are after XD

Bardic Wizard

@nitsua60 i don’t know? I was thinking about my dad’s (now my) copy of some mongoose traveller edition but I don’t even know which

That might be the version I have though

nitsua60

(Oh, boy, time just hit me: in less than a year my son will be allowed by SE policies to be in this room. And he loves RPGing....)

(Oh, wow, that ^^ just hit me. Time to run for mod again and go back and clean up my chat-history in case that ^^ comes to pass!)

trogdor

lol

god having kids, I don't know if I ever want to do that XD

nitsua60

It's the hardest fun you'll ever have =)

trogdor

I realize plenty of people who have said that before also had kids at some point

Thomas Markov

12:53 AM

The Rime Room chat isn’t showing up on my list, can someone link it or mention me there?

nitsua60

@trogdor Plenty of people have flipped that order, too. As in, had kids and then thought "I'm not sure I want to do this."

BESW

Rime Room

Thomas Markov

@BESW Thanks friend

trogdor

@nitsua60 yeah that's the worst of all worlds

nitsua60

(even if just a fleeting thought)

Someone_Evil

12:55 AM

@BESW By the sounds of the discord, the 3rd printing isn't actually printed yet (at least physical copies)

BESW

@Someone_Evil I definitely have somebody here sharing the text of the second and third printings side by side.

Or at least, they're using the word "printing" for it.

Someone_Evil

Right, the itchio page has a third printing pdf. Last edit to that page was 24. sept. Last devlog announced the 2nd printing on the 5th of march

BESW

Okay, that's. interesting. Thank you!

Bardic Wizard

@nitsua60 wow, you’ve got a twelve year old?

Someone_Evil

Yes, looking at the download for the file (turns out I own Troika through the BfRJ&E), it's timestamped to the 24th

BESW

1:19 AM

@BardicWizard Great, now I feel old too. [grin]

Bardic Wizard

@BESW Nah, I’m just young, at least in body (my mom calls me a 200 year old in the body of a teen because of all the doilies and the opera)

BESW

Hee

nitsua60

@BardicWizard yup. And I'll take the months--I could use them!

TheDragonOfFlame

1:56 AM

Wait there is an age req for stack chat rooms?

BESW

The Stack as a whole has a "you say you're at least 13 years old" thing when you make an account.

Shalvenay

@TheDragonOfFlame yeah, it's 13 due to US laws governing how websites interact with users younger than 13 (COPPA)

TheDragonOfFlame

2:36 AM

Ok

bur I’m not American lol

they didn’t ask for an age anyway

Bardic Wizard

@TheDragonOfFlame if you’re a teen, it’s nice to see other teenagers on SE

If not, still nice to see you

TheDragonOfFlame

3:23 AM

Yep I’m a teen lol

this is a good site

Adeptus

So I just found out they're doing (another) Stargate SG-1 RPG. And guess what system they're basing it on?... D&D 5e...

BESW

trogdor

lol

TheDragonOfFlame

3:58 AM

lol

BESW

If it was using... almost any other system... for its engine, I'd be super tempted to pitch in 10$ on that Kickstarter and get the PDF.

But I've seen how badly Stargate fits with the D&D game design structure already.

trogdor

4:15 AM

yep

Bardic Wizard

4:40 AM

@BESW clearly, the Stack needs to write this better

BESW

I mean, I ran a short SG-13 campaign in my own drift of Fate Accelerated a couple years ago with Troggy and Greener.

BESW

5:10 AM

I'm kind of impressed. The SG-1 RPG kickstarter has a link to a playable quickstart beta package which is, in fact, unplayable.

I was already disappointed, and they still managed to disappoint.

(I was looking in the faint hope that they'd have an interesting take on the 5e engine that I'd want to borrow for my own systems, or a new way to approach the SG franchise in light of its roots in racist conspiracy theories.)

trogdor

I was expecting it to just be, the new version of the old SG1 game

it apparently isn't even that

:/

BESW

The quickstart beta document is (a) 52 pages long so I'm side-eyeing the use of "quickstart," particularly in light of the fact that (b) it contains neither pre-made characters nor rules for making them nor a character sheet at all.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW wow. That’s just.... wow. I can’t even put into words how much that worries me for the future of RPGs

BESW

@BardicWizard I'm really... glad...? that I no longer rely on Big Name Game Engines for my RPG resources.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW ... umm. WHAT? how is this even remotely going to be good at all???????

@BESW it’s probably a good thing.

BESW

5:20 AM

In the "say something good" camp, the new book layout is MUCH better than the last SG1 RPG's layout.

And I kinda like their setting premise: PC teams are based out of a planet that's been made a base for an interspecies cooperative project.

But the majority of this Quickstart is just... the D&D rules for stuff like encumbrance and skill checks and attacks, but lightly re-written to be SG-flavored.

> DESIGNER’S NOTES
This section of the rules is directed at the Gatemaster and is written to reflect that. These rules are designed to help the GM tell their story and adjudicate mechanics, after all.
However, these rules aren’t intended to be kept secret from the players, so it’s acceptable to read through them in advance. If anything, it is likely to help the game run smoothly. Just remember that it is the GM’s job to tinker with these base rules to fit them to the story!

Ah yes. "It's okay to HELP the GM run the game but never CHALLENGE them."

Bardic Wizard

@BESW that could be good or trouble-causing, and I hope if it is troublesome people speak out

trogdor

@BESW oh god what?

BESW

@BardicWizard [shrug] The whole Stargate franchise is based on "ancient aliens" conspiracy theories about how brown people couldn't possibly have built things like the pyramids without help. The franchise generally tries not to lean into those origins, but it doesn't interrogate them either.

So I'm not super hopeful about people engaged with the RPG feeling like they can/should speak up on those subjects.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW ugh, that mindset sucks. I play 2 d&d games every week, and 2 more monthly. It’s always been more fun when we challenge the GM about rulings since things generally make more sense and are more fun. In one game, the GM hasn’t made a “ruling” the entire campaign that didn’t come from table consensus. That game is one of the most fun since it’s really just collaborative story telling.

BESW

Bardic Wizard

5:31 AM

@BESW this needs to change. If it’s bad (even if it isn’t) I will do my best to speak out to everyone I can about the issues with it and get them to speak out

BESW

That's appreciated. The thing is, SG-1's bigotry is a lot more subtly hard-coded into the franchise premise, and a lot less obvious to the average content observer than, say, orcs in D&D.

Its setting is built on "everyone's religions are aliens posing as false gods, except mostly not monotheism," and then its stories tend to be very much reinforcing the "American military as self-appointed international peacekeepers" and/or "American military as moral role models" kinds of themes.

The latter is easier to fix but would require some harsh confrontation of American military exceptionalism that would alienate a lot of the fanbase; the former is a lot harder to address without winding up with something that doesn't look like the franchise at all.

There's a lot I like about the Stargate franchise, and the SG-1 show in particular, but I wouldn't feel competent to write for it outside my own very personal TRPG group where we've talked about why we're playing it and what we will and won't tolerate in the setting canon.

Part of what I was looking for in the quickstart material was any reference to safety tools for managing the kinds of themes and topics the game is almost inevitably going to bring up. Didn't see anything.

Bardic Wizard

5:53 AM

Ugh. This all is making me want to shove my dad’s SG stuff into the garbage compacter (I won’t) and then burn that (also won’t do that)

BESW

Mar 31 '19 at 10:16, by BESW

Nothing is perfect in this world, and so it's not only okay but necessary to like imperfect things. I just advocate liking them critically, which means staring their flaws in the face without flinching.

2

SG-1 is no more a tool of American military propaganda than Captain Marvel or Transformers. And no less, either.

And the one time the franchise really tried to explore the darker implications of its premise, it... went over-the-top grimdark and became more shocker spectacle than substance.

But I super appreciate that a lot of the franchise's TV history is focused on the theme of making connections and finding common ground as a path to peace, and while it glorifies the military, SG-1 in particular actually did a decent job of making it clear that the military can never find sustainable solutions to international problems.

trogdor

I just can't get over how they apparently didn't even release an actual game

XD

BESW

Yeah, that's. amazing.

52 pages of quickstart that don't actually leave you with a playable character.

That's gotta be a mistake, a problem with exporting the PDF or something. I hope.

trogdor

I loved Stargate as a kid/young adult, and yeah it's got some problems I might not have examined that hard until later

But the game isn't even a game?

That's practically intentional

Unless it's literally a mistake

I don't really hope it is because I'm not excited to try an SG1 game anymore

Certainly not one based off of 5th Edition D&D rules

Just not my thing

BESW

I would like to take the stuff I like from a lot of different shows with Deeply Problematic Premises and find a way to mash them into a game I'd be more comfortable playing.

Can we find a way to do heists without glorifying gaslighting, for example?

trogdor

6:13 AM

you know

I don't think I've watched a single heist movie since the point in time I learned what gaslighting was

so I don't remember just how much might be in,... the average heist movie or at least the ones I have seen

BESW

I'm just gonna leave this here.

SUPERCUT Every Mission from "Mission: Impossible" (1966-1973)

►

(You'll notice that partway through, the missions start becoming a lot more internal to the United States, and more associated with the war on drugs; compared the earlier seasons' focus on the US meddling in foreign affairs. Not that the war on drugs is... better... in hindsight.)

trogdor

6:32 AM

well I never saw any Mission Impossible to begin with

at least not until the Tom Cruise movies XD

BESW

I'll also point out that the new Mission: Impossible film franchise is based almost entirely on the main character uncovering deep-running corruption within the M:I system and its overseers, repeatedly.

trogdor

ok

I love the one where he straight up says "unfortunately, kidnapping has been ruled out as too embarrassing, politically"

XD

and one is just,... to grab 3 million dollars before someone else

up here we go

about 3 minutes in it's about drug dealers

oh well that was just one I guess?

I guess I haven't gotten to where they went full on to that stuff

BESW

6:53 AM

It's not a really sharp change, and sometimes you can't tell just from the snippet.

But it was very noticeable over time in the series, as they spend a lot less time in Central America and Eastern Europe, and a lot more time in... Chicago, and the Mexican border.

That old TV series is really fascinating. It's got a consistently high level of craft, and is also unapologetic propaganda for [gestures rudely] American interventionist policies. And you can see those policies change over time through the show's designated villains and the things they struggle over.

trogdor

yeah I'm extremely ready for America to stop being,.... this

it doesn't help that I saw that Monster Hunter trailer and it just reads like more American Millitary propaganda stuff

for,... a franchise that has had nothing to even do with any of that

it's not like Call of Duty or some other game that's already about that stuff

it's not even a game franchise I've played, but it's a cool premise that they got all their US Millitary Hoo Ra stuff mixed into and it kinda makes me a little mad honestly

XD

BESW

7:58 AM

@trogdor If you ever want to be angrier, I'll DM you some video essays about the history of American film/tv relationships with the police.

trogdor

Why would I want to be even more angry?

I have so much to be mad about already XD

But yeah I'll keep that in mind

kviiri

12:52 PM

Can I borrow a logician?

BESW

That'd be someone with magical powers of woodworking, yes?

kviiri

x)

AncientSwordRage

1:44 PM

So SE told me it was a teapot today

BESW

Is it a very special teapot?

AncientSwordRage

sadly not

user15026

@BESW yes please. I have pretty much had to stop watching Leverage because all I see is the gas lighting now

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I can't think of a single heist movie that involves gaslighting. I'm not saying they don't exist I just can't think of any...

happy to carry on in HBD

Hot RPG Questions

4:48 PM

7

Q: Is there anything preventing a first-level alchemist from buying a sixth-level alchemical formula?

The alchemist starts at level 1 with eight first-level alchemical formulae - two from their specialisation, four from their alchemical crafting feat, and two for free because they're alchemists. Alchemy alchemy alchemy. But when I looked up purchasing formulae on page 293 of the CRB, I found that...

user15026

7:58 PM

@AncientSwordRage a lot of them do. They're basically all about making people believe things that arent true in some way shape or form.

AncientSwordRage

@Ash I guess that's deceitful, but I thought gaslighting was more complicated than that

user15026

It is, but it's the subtle undermining of their understanding of reality. Leverage does it all the time, in their episodes

AncientSwordRage

@Ash Ooof, I've not seen the show, but I'll take your word for it

Bardic Wizard

8:28 PM

Ugh, the most frustrating thing in the world is when people needle you about missing 1.5 points on an essay graded out of 6 points. It’s an 85%, which is a solid B, which is not that bad.

Incidentally, I got my essay grade back

My motivation ended up being “last essay my grade was way worse than my friend; if i do better than her i can rub it in”

trogdor

8:44 PM

Lol

That's certainly one way to stay motivated

KorvinStarmast

9:47 PM

the whole point of a con is to make people see things that aren't there, or, to get them to not see what is right in front of them. That's the whole point of the show Leverage, if I recall the last episode I saw a bunch of years ago. See also The Sting, Oceans 11, and so on. The point is to celebrate being clever and outsmarting {someone}

trogdor

yeah that's fair

it's not that I don't think there is gaslighting in heist movies, it's more that I don't personally remember all the specific instances of it

KorvinStarmast

I'll not comment further; I remember enjoying a few of the Leverage episodes but not enough to see them all. It was more of a "tripped over it while looking for another show"

trogdor

partly because I have not watched a heist movie in a while

but partly also because in that while somewhere is where I first learned the word gaslighting and what it means XD

KorvinStarmast

The desire to label and name call can be overwhelming. When one has a handy term, it is possible to overuse it.

@trogdor Anyway, hope all is well with you on your side of the world, our hurricane season is finally over and I can breath a sigh of relief.

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast I mean, I don't think it's overlabeled to call what people do in heist movies gas lighting

part of the nature of gas lighting is also making people believe it's not happening when it is

or at least trying to

KorvinStarmast

9:52 PM

@trogdor I guess I'll cogitate on that. Con stories and con movies predate this pejorative term. Thank you, you've given me something to think about. 😎

trogdor

a word for it actually helps people catch it and correct it in the best case scenario at least

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor That's true: to be able to describe something is helpful

trogdor

yeah

or even not having to describe it

if that makes any sense

if there is a word that evokes it already you only have to say the word

XD

KorvinStarmast

yeah, I see what you mean. Helpful in that respect to be sure

👍

BESW

11:41 PM

Fun fact: gaslighting is named for the 1938 British play Gas Light (Angel Street in the US) in which an abuser slowly dimmed the lights while telling his victims that the lights were not dimming. The term was popularized by the 1940 and 1944 film adaptations, both called Gaslight. The act of gaslighting, of course, is much much older than this modern term for it.

6

trogdor

it is

I just think having a term for it is a good thing

BESW

Very much so, and I super appreciate that it's such a demonstrative term: explaining the term's origin is also explaining its definition.

trogdor

yeah

I didn't know that was why it was called that but it makes a lot of sense now

Ben

Ok that was mildly disconcerting.

I loaded up (what I thought was) General chat, but the last post was 7 days ago.

Then I realised I actually loaded up TBR. Lol

trogdor

lol

BESW

11:49 PM

Hah!

trogdor

I can see how that would be a weird experience

BESW

I actually had a thing a few days ago where chat search couldn't produce any results dating after 2016.

trogdor

that's weird

Ben

That is odd lol

So how is everyone today

kviiri

About to head to bed

I wrote at least one science

maybe go pound the piano a bit first

trogdor

11:52 PM

lol

I like that term for it

kviiri

Out of the three pianists who live in this household, I'm the one for which it is the closest to percussion instrument

Both because I'm not as good at finesse and because I play very rhytmic tunes

trogdor

I've taken a small number of piano classes and haven't practiced very much

so pounding the piano is just about what I'm doing really XD

Ben

@kviiri You did a science? That counts as a prductive.

kviiri

@Ben Yuh, I'm writing down my New & Improved Algorithm for finding relaxed 3-colorings for toroidic grids

Relaxed 3-coloring = assign each node in the grid one of three colors so each node has at most one node of the same color

Ben

That definitely sounds like a science to me XD

kviiri

11:58 PM

ok the actual algorithm isn't particularly hot, it's mainly that non-relaxed 3-coloring is known to be asymptotically harder than 4-coloring

Ben

@kviiri So, like RGB vs RGYB?

kviiri

But relaxed 3-coloring is asymptotically as hard as 4-coloring, which gives us more insight concerning the boundary between the complexity classes they're in

@Ben Yea (although since the number of colors could be just about any integer, we usually just refer to them as numbers)

Ben

Right

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