TRPG General Chat

12:01 AM

...in part because that's most realistic to me, having grown up in a place where that's just how things are. CHamoru, Filipino, Pohnpeian, Yapese, Japanese, Chuukese, Korean, Palauan, American military...

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I've lived a very cloistered life in comparison

@BESW I love mixing anything together

"what if that, and that were in the same setting"

"What happens when thee two metals mix?"

"can you have a plant animal hybrids"

^ childhood thoughts

BESW

I think that's one of the reasons D&D's treatment of race is so obviously blinkered to me; I know that culture and identity don't dilute, they reinforce. My friends aren't half CHamoru and half Filipino, or dominantly one or the other, or even hyphenated: they're CHamoru and Filipino.

(This has been reflected in self-ID censuses and immigration documents for at least two hundred years.)

nitsua60

Apropos of nothing, today is Maria Mitchell's birthday. In her honor, have some of my favorite stars from the last year, in no particular order:

2

Feb 27 '19 at 1:49, by goodguy5

I just wanted to stop in between naps. Baby is born. Looks great. Doing amazing. So tired. Thanks to anyone that talked me through during pregnancy.

May 26 at 20:11, by nitsua60

2020 Community Moderator Election Results

Aug 9 '19 at 21:28, by Ash

Ice cream helps on bad days. I am pretty sure that's science.

Oct 3 '19 at 14:17, by doppelgreener

Just in case anyone's interested, someone's made a chat userscript that makes peoples' pronouns readily available if they're defined in that person's bio:

Jan 25 at 3:41, by BESW

Goblin Court by BESW, a #GoblinWeekGames submission about living your best life in spite of human drama.

Feb 24 at 22:41, by Carcer

bag of holding, invert it, devouring, invert it, still devouring, invert it again, holding

Mar 23 at 12:10, by Someone_Evil

RPG.SE really changes when you unlock the see deleted spell

Jul 27 at 15:39, by Bardic Wizard

@BESW Grim randomly showed up on my morning walk this morning and demanded I give them doggie cuddles. You have made a very addicting game.

Enjoy the stars tonight, people!

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 lovely stars

@BESW I've been thinking of how to carve up racial traits in a fair way, but not got very far

A points based system?

BESW

12:16 AM

@AncientSwordRage My attitude is, just throw the whole thing out. We don't need bioessential mechanics, so I have no interest in trying to rehabilitate them.

AncientSwordRage

I'm not even thinking stats either, but taking the mountain out of a mountain dwarf

@BESW I mean to say, something to enable mountain elves and ghostwise humans

"my elf is from the mountains so they know stone craft" is a valid statement

Or at least should be

BESW

Yes. But it's not a racial statement.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW Which is why I'd want to carve them up

Take the mechanical meat off the racial bones and put them on a plate for everyone to share

They're by far the more interesting parts for me

BESW

Like, in Fate I could just say they were a Stolid stoneworker who was Raised in a distant elf-holt but lived here so long they're Not really a foreigner.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW one day I'll read up on fate

BESW

12:24 AM

Instead of being worried about race, systems can just ask about your character's background, career, social connections, etc.

(cf Bolt)

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I think that's what I'm aiming for

If they got carved up nothing mechanical would be associated with race

BESW

I'd recommend coming at it from the other direction. Carving up racial traits isn't going to guarantee removing their bioessentialist roots, it's likely to just obscure them.

AncientSwordRage

Here's a question you might be able to answer @BESW

BESW

Instead come at it from "what do I want people to do in my game."

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I can see that in principle, maybe I haven't gotten past "mountain X" which seems wholly not bioessential

My question was, how do you balance enabling different builds having equal agency over how their powers function Vs making different builds feel unique?

BESW

12:31 AM

As you've phrased it, "my elf is from the mountains so they know stone craft" implies that skill is environmental and only mountain people learn stone skills.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that is more troublesome than I realised

BESW

@AncientSwordRage Hmm. That's a massive topic which depends on a lot of different factors in the nature of your game's relationship with mechanics.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I should explore the space more before overthinking

@BESW there has to be a way to phrase it that makes it an acquirable skill

BESW

Again, come at it from the other end and you'll be able to remove the implications more freely.

In Fate, for example, stunts are often phrased with this formula:

> Because I [describe some way that you are exceptional, have a cool bit of gear, or are otherwise awesome], I get a +2 when I [pick one: Carefully, Cleverly, Flashily, Forcefully, Quickly, Sneakily] [pick one: attack, defend, create advantages, overcome] when [describe a circumstance].

See how they've expanded the nature of the justification?

You could say "Because I am from the mountains, I get a +2 when I Carefully create advantages when using stone."

But you could just as easily say "Because I am friends with a stone spirit," or "Because my mother taught me the family business" or "Because I am in love with a naiad," or "Because I have excellent carving tools,"

AncientSwordRage

One the one hand, I'm interested in just modding d&d for the sake of simplicity. On the other I'm designing a separate game.

BESW

12:39 AM

Heh.

I'll dig up some references for existing D&D mod work and discussions about the logic behind them.

AncientSwordRage

And I mean that literally

@BESW thanks

BESW

"D&D will change to address racism, but someone has already done the work," Polygon article by Charlie Hall.

Arcanist Press also wrote a twitter thread with "A note on #racism in #DnD."

AncientSwordRage

Nice, thanks

BESW

Aug 11 '19 at 21:26, by BESW

"Using Tachyon Squadron’s engagement rules for races and chases," an rpgnet forum thread.

Mar 6 at 2:18, by BESW

Oh, if we're talking about that, I'll also re-up my mention of Carly M. Ho's The Thousand Cousins as my favorite fantasy setting in terms of handling orcs and other humanoid "races."

Apr 28 at 3:25, by BESW

Class Modifier Module for Dnd5e (WIP) by Gabe James Games is a work-in-progress module for D&D 5e that presents options for character creation based on class without race.

Apr 28 at 5:33, by Adeptus

@BESW There's also Reimagining Racial Ability Scores by James Haeck, on DnDBeyond's blog

@BESW Whoops, that one's not r🐘.

That ought to give you some starting points for your own searches.

AncientSwordRage

12:54 AM

@BESW wrong kind of race?

BESW

Yeah.

That's three different already-made ways to modify D&D to be less bioessentialist.

I'm sure more exist that I haven't noticed because I've got every D&D-related word muted and blocked on all my social media.

I only learn about D&D stuff when it reaches such saturation that it creeps into my feed through subposts and such.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW it's a good starting place for me

Glazius

@BESW "Rincewind considered himself a staunch racist. He had run in all of them."

5

AncientSwordRage

3:41 AM

I found my old Google Doc of the RPG system I was creating

It turns out the last meaningful edit was Aug 2012

AncientSwordRage

4:53 AM

Bark Against Evil looks like a fun game where you play dogs chasing evil out of town

BESW

@AncientSwordRage That's almost a year before I first started fiddling with fully new-system designs.

"New Queer Game Design" panel from Gen Con Online 2020.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW then I have some catching up to do ;-)

BESW

I'm looking at some of my early work and wow, I don't know if I want to bury these in a dark forest at midnight, or try re-writing them.

...I had some interesting ideas about flaws and failing forward. Hrm.

Bardic Wizard

5:14 AM

@BESW there was a similar game design panel at SDCC this year too. I’ve got the link to it written down. The advice was good though it focused a lot on getting games published.

BESW

Gah, typo. @AncientSwordRage would you mind changing that from Queen to Queer up there?

Bardic Wizard

SDCC panel: Get it on the table: designing your tabletop game.

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6:41 AM

5

Q: Do I have to pick one of the listed types of dragon for my sorcerer's Draconic Ancestry?

For the Draconic Bloodline sorcerer subclass, can I only choose my dragon ancestor from the kinds listed in the Draconic Ancestry table? Or is it possible to choose an unlisted type of dragon (such as a Shadow Dragon or a Purple Dragon) as my dragon ancestor?

dnd-5e character-creation sorcerer dragons

AncientSwordRage

11:13 AM

@BESW done

BESW

Thanks.

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Say my players are in a dungeon of many keys and many doors, where if a wrong key is used in the wrong door, they will be electrocuted, ambushed, etc. This makes the players wary to just try every key in every door. The players have found a key that I describe as "a simple key, made of copper st...

dnd-5e skills

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

12:13 PM

Something that I think is constantly overlooked: in fantasy lingo, the word 'race' is often used to cover two extremely different concepts, or a spectrum between them.

On one end usage for something resembling real-world human *RACES*, which shouldn't warrant more than minor (at most!) mechanical differences (like maybe slight bonuses to resist highly specific metabolic hazards - often not worth even noting down depending on an RPG's resolution level).

On the other end you have major *SPECIES* differences, such as wise whale vs. cloud giant vs. (tinkerbell-sized) pixie. Those most definit…

NautArch

@V2Blast Did I miss a comment by OP that clarified their question? It looks like another user added the specifics.

AncientSwordRage

12:51 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica interesting points to consider

Someone_Evil

@NautArch No additions by querent, but the edit looks to me like someone dug into the meaning (incl from title) and clarified the question. Is there anything which looks off to you?

NautArch

1:13 PM

@Someone_Evil they clearly guessed right, but there was no edit from OP that did it. It could very easily have been ancestral dragon meaning dragon born.

Someone_Evil

Which would have made the sorcerer tag a rather odd include

NautArch

We just let the community guess without input from OP.

Could be a dragonborn draconic sorcerer.

Just seems like we did an end justifies the means, which I thought we didn't usually do that.

Someone_Evil

We did? It looks a lot to me like someone using their expertise put the question information into an easier to understand form. I might agree that leaving a comment asking for the querent to confirm the edit would be good (and common) practice, but with suggested edits they get a notification and an override IIRC

But I'm coming out of a lot of hours of driving so my parsing might not be fully up to snuff atm

NautArch

1:33 PM

@Someone_Evil Well, experts also closed it because we didn't know what they were talking about. It really was a 50/50 chance. Maybe 60/40. But either way, it wasn't clear, one user changed the body to clarify, then another changed the title. Clarifying and deciding which one it was, but only because they guessed and guessed correctly.

I don't think being an expert had anything to do with it. It was just a lucky guess based on a 50/50 chance.

I just worry that clarifying a querent's question without input from the querent puts in a not great situation with regard to other unclear issues.

Someone_Evil

Querent was the 3rd reopen vote; that and the accept seems like reaonable confirmation for me to not go reverting. I do agree there's a risk of clarifying to the wrong question (I'd personally wait to reopen until confirmed, but I know others don't)

But there are so many nuances to this I think we just have to take it on a case by case

NautArch

Sure, but that's after the fact. I personally don't love that decision-process, but maybe I should take to meta (in awhile, meta is a not great place right now)

I just can't think of another isntance where we've allowed guessing to clarify.

It's easy to get reopen votes when it looks clear. And OP's reopen vote 'confirms', but that's a very passive reconfirm and it's after it's already on it's way to reopening.

Someone_Evil

Pretty sure we have others, but it's a pain to look up (SEDE might be able to give candidates, but I don't think we can get them directly)

NautArch

Okay then. It's not something I do, but maybe others do. I wholeheartedly disagree with ever guessing what a querent means, but I guess others don't have that issue.

Someone_Evil

There's a lot to that word "guess" methinks, the stack doesn't seem to have landed on quite what it means, despite repeated efforts

NautArch

1:42 PM

True. I just can't see a path to clarity with that question. Just having the sorcerer tag doesn't do it for me. Especially with the community's understanding (or lack thereof) around tags.

But to say that experts were able to guess is very suspect as I not-so-humbly consider myself a site expert for 5e. But that's pretty silly to write out :P

But I"m also a lot more careful about figuring out what a querent wants, to the point of potential detriment in the eyes of others.

so.../shrug.

and given your support of the class guess and reopening, that may be the case.

NautArch

2:01 PM

Obviously no reason to roll back now, just thinking about handling this thing in the future.

Someone_Evil

The concern is definitely valid, and for anything more involved, or where things where less clear, I'd definitely be in favour of at least asking the querent to confirm this the question they intended to ask

NautArch

Well, that was tried and why it was closed.

Not sure if there was a specific comment about it, tho

I just get the ickies when someone simply guesses and it gets reopened.

Someone_Evil

There was a comment asking to clarify whether they were referring to sorcerer or dragonborn (that's the only comment)

NautArch

2:17 PM

Well, that's a pretty good one :)

Maurycy

3:22 PM

Okay, so what's the disguise and forgery opposed with in DND5? There is this Q but it's not covered there: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/62606/…

Someone_Evil

Insight or Investigation AFAIK, depends on what sort of opposition they're doing

Maurycy

What I mean is, let's say I use INT roll to decide the quality of the forgery/disguise, but how can others detect it? Intuition? Passive perception? Investigation? ANd when do they roll?

My specific situation is, an NPC disguises themselves as someone else, when should PC roll for it and what check is it?

Someone_Evil

Depends on style of play, but I'd personally go with when they start trying to discern whether the person is lying or similar

Carcer

yeah it's one of those things that can be a bit tricky to judge

seeing through a disguise in the sense of noticing that it's visually off would be perception, recognising that a person is lying about who they are if you have an actual conversation with them is insight, I'd probably use investigation as the skill for recognising a forgery

NautArch

@Maurycy I'd probably do deception or performance against insight

But depends on specifics

Carcer

3:32 PM

in all cases use the PC's passive scores for those skills to determine if they notice anything's up, I wouldn't have them make an active roll unless they specifically say they're suspicious of the person/document

Bardic Wizard

If you know some PCs have a high passive whatever, I find note-passing works well to tell them “you find this suspicious” and to keep other players from assuming it’s this specifically that’s wrong (though sometimes notes can be a sign something is up anyways, but at least there’s some deniability into what precisely is wrong)

Carcer

yeah, depends on the players. Some groups you can trust not to metagame that kind of info, others less so

NautArch

4:01 PM

I'd probably call for an insight active. Is it for believing the NPC? Or something like else? They don't know!

AncientSwordRage

4:14 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I'm still wondering if the difference between the species you mentioned are better covered by blanket attributes like size and sentience etc. I'm just thinking how it's difficult to compare the strength of a sky whale Vs the sucker strength of the seni-sapient octopus

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage How much of the spectrum are you dealing with? Just highland dwarf vs. plainsland dwarf kind, or do you also have more different 'races' (species) like pixies, illithids, lizardmen, ur-quan, sapient elephants, wise whales and the like?

AncientSwordRage

4:32 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I'm just spitballing atm

I think I'm going to have to fork out for the book @BESW mentioned

16 hours ago, by BESW

Arcanist Press also wrote a twitter thread with "A note on #racism in #DnD."

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage All right. What are you understanding under 'blanket attributes'?

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I guess I've not examined well. What I mean is if you can attivite something to an actual physical attribute (like size → strength) that can be blanket applied to all creatures of that size. Not sure how useful that distinction actually is though

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

4:47 PM

@AncientSwordRage Well, size can still indicate different strengths. A typical whale is likely to be stronger than a slylandro the living gasbag creature. Similarly, neurology will differ. A dolphin should probably count as sapient (self-recognition, language with a syntax, references by name and the like), but probably won't be able to compete with a human, let alone a psilon, in terms of rational cognition (even if competitive in terms of, say, emotional cognition).

This is, of course, a highly hypothetical list of examples, just to demonstrate how differences may lie deeper 'inside'.

AncientSwordRage

5:04 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica yup that makes sense

Gwideon

5:50 PM

hello

um i know it's been a long time but how is everyone'

Someone_Evil

I'm alright. You?

Gwideon

so I have something cool I've been working on that I would like feedback on. It's kinda a competitive simple table top rpg. I'm not really a writer so it's a bit rough but um yeah.

2

also i'm good

Someone_Evil

Oooo! What does competitive mean in this context? (I ask because it gets used for many different things)

Gwideon

basically the players are working to have more of something than the others by the end of the game. basically there's a winner and a loser. um i can send what I have so far if you want to take a look at it yourself

Someone_Evil

I (and I suspect others) would love to

Gwideon

6:01 PM

drive.google.com/drive/folders/…

Someone_Evil

Your name is visible through that, but I assume you're comfortable with that?

Gwideon

yeah I am

Someone_Evil

Ok, just thought I'd check :)

AncientSwordRage

@Gwideon \oo//

All good here

Gwideon

that's good

sorry if it's not particularly well written

it's still very very alpha and i've only playtested it with my friends but they've enjoyed it.

so what do people think

MikeQ

6:22 PM

Are some of the rules missing? It seems incomplete.

Gwideon

it is. i'm still working on the rules through play testing. it's meant to be very rules light and alot of stuff is meant to be ruled then and there by the gm.

MikeQ

How are followers gained or lost? What does a player do if they reach 0 followers early on? What does a high priest do? Attacks are mentioned - how does that work?

Axoren

Don't remember what it's called

MikeQ

Pandemic Positivity?

Axoren

Yes.

I remember there was something in it that I wanted to share with someone else

@MikeQ Thanks, found it

Gwideon

6:34 PM

@MikeQ Followers are gained or lost as consequences of events or player actions. High priest are basically an rp tool. They’re an npc that the player’s can talk to. They can also be sent out to preach so you can gain followers. Attacks are simply might vs might contested rolls. Who ever wins ultimately wins the fight and the gm determines the consequences.

@MikeQ the game is more based around in character negotiation between players and politics.

that's why there isn't a lot of depth to combat.

sorry if this is annoying

anyways. what do people think

Rubiksmoose

heh, so I just started doing something silly. I wanted some mundane task to do so I decided to start going through the tags on the site to come up with a list of every system tag (even though I'm not sure any useful info could come of it, yes my brain is weird). And wow, did I underestimate the number of system tags we have... I'm on page 28/43 of our tags and I already have 12 pages of system tags (single column in Word).

Gwideon

oh geez

MikeQ

6:50 PM

@Gwideon The mechanics are kinda vague, so it's hard to review the overall system. As for individual parts, you might want to have some recourse when players reach 0 followers, instead of just kicking them from the game.

Gwideon

okay.

Rubiksmoose

Yeah... and any SEDE query written to search for questions that don't have those tags is going to look fairly humorous I expect with that enormous list embedded in it.

Gwideon

i know the mechanics are kinda vague. i'm not great at techinical writing.

I really do need a writer who's better at this stuff. alot of it is in my head and I'm honestly not quite sure how to get it down.

MikeQ

What about inserting a block of notes/commentary in different sections, listing whatever ideas are related to that section of game mechanics?

Gwideon

@MikeQ that might work but um yeah. this is the really alpha stage of the game and this is the first real draft of the rules. it's been in my head for most of this time. for me it's so much easier to show rules to people when actually playing than it is writing them down.

MikeQ

6:57 PM

Ok. Maybe add some pages to describe some examples of play?

Honestly this seems too incomplete to be considered alpha. There's a loose collection of ideas and game mechanics, but little explanation of how they work. It seems like the game master is expected to determine the actual rules of play.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Hah! Beat you to it!

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Darn right you did XD

Gwideon

i know

anyways I'll shut up about this system until i've got more done on it

Someone_Evil

We're perfectly happy to rattle ideas. And sometimes the best way to word out your idea is to explain it to someone

If nothing else, we might be a great rubber duck

MikeQ

7:14 PM

You mentioned that you playtested it. Maybe use examples from your playtest, e.g. an example of players attacking, and then gaining/losing a certain number of followers. Or an example of players spending souls to acquire something. Or examples of rolling for events, and how to resolve them.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's an understatement. 👍

@MikeQ what, are you saying Dave Arneson wrote it? 😆

@Gwideon can't comment until tomorrow at the earliest, but I'll have a look see and see if anything leaps out at me.

Gwideon

@MikeQ so we had an event were the not mongols came down and started raiding us. one of the gods sent some of his armed forces to protect our cities. another god sent out his own armies to attack the not mongols. they made a might roll and added their bonus. I think they got like a 4 in total. so they slowed down the mongols but he lost some followers in the process.

another is that two gods collaborated to make a university to the stars. It was considered a miracle so they split the soul cost and used both our actions. the one who proposed the idea made the power roll. unfortunately they got like a 2 so the universities weren't very good and both of us got less followers than we wanted.

sorry these aren't great examples.

another was that one god wanted to make the high priest of another god go mad by revealing the ultimate secret of the universe to them. so the god made a influence roll and the other god made a zeal roll. the one who wanted to commit the sabotage got a higher roll and won. this caused the high preist to go mad and the other god lost some followers as the high priest started spouting nonsense.

so um are those pretty good examples.

MikeQ

7:34 PM

If anything, they're examples of the relationship between rolling some number and determining success/consequences.

In the contested PvP roll, how many followers were gained/lost?

Gwideon

well that's kinda up to the gm. they're the ones that decide on the consequences of things.

MikeQ

And that puts a huge burden on the gm, and a lot of uncertainty on the players.

Maybe ballpark some number ranges. Do they lose 1 follower? 5? 10? 30? Can the gm decide that the player loses all of their followers?

Gwideon

most interactions with the mortal world are determined via roll. that's not the really fun stuff. the fun stuff is the conversations, political maneuvering, and negotiations that happen between players. if i remember correctly it was about 10 to 15 followers for the fight against the not mongols and about 5 to 10 for the madness incident.

MikeQ

Ok, then you should include those number ranges somewhere in the rules, even if they're just suggestions.

Gwideon

also I don't see how it's a problem. it hasn't been a problem with my players or me while I was playing, it's simple improv.

no ones come up to me and said "I'd like to know the exact amount of followers I'm gonna lose if I do this." also having a god hit zero has been rare.

MikeQ

7:40 PM

It's a problem because the rules are incomplete. If this ruleset was handed to someone as a complete product, they would not know how to play.

Gwideon

what's the problem with the dm coming up with the numbers on the fly. most follower loses shouldn't exceede 20 as thats getting to be excessive. sorry i'm just a bit confused.

MikeQ

Ok, easy example then. How would the gm know that losses shouldn't exceed 20?

Gwideon

hmm that is true. but all that needs to be put in is a little bit of gm advice. basically most follower losses shouldn't exceed 20. to detail every interaction and what it's consequences are would be ridiculous in game as free form on the players part as this.

sorry if I'm coming off as mean

i don't mean to

MikeQ

No worries. It's normal to want to defend one's own creations.

Gwideon

plus this isn't supposed to be a high crunch system. having tables for every interaction would slow down the pace of an already slow paced game. I find it's easier to handle this by having the dm decide based on the context what the soul cost for something is and what the consequences on follower counts should be.

turns can take a long time as it needs to be kept in mind that players are also rping during turns with each other and npcs.

but yeah i do get the concerns

sorry i'm being annoying aren't I

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Gwideon

anyways I'll shut up

Someone_Evil

@Gwideon You are not :)

Gwideon

it's been pretty simple. like if a player wants to preform a powerful miracle that will affect multiple turns such as say making a demigod then it should have a high soul cost. but if it's a miracle that will only affect this turn then it should have a low soul cost. it's also a general understanding that a single action shouldn't wipe out a god.

like one lost might roll doesn't mean your holy city is gone and all your followers are dead.

MikeQ

Ok. That's useful to know! That kind of information should be in the rules somewhere, even if it's just a suggestion.

Gwideon

I'll probably put it into gm advice

i've thought a lot of this stuff through. just haven't put it down yet.

this is why i'm saying the game is very very alpha. i'm still putting stuff together but it has been playable. even had someone other than myself run it.

also i know this is alittle weird but this isn't exactly meant for a long term campaign. this is a one shot game. it's something you pull out for the night and by the end of the night it's over.

that's why there's alot of emphasis on keeping it very freeform and simple.

i mean i'm sure there would be a way to make it a longform game but it would require some adjusting and the adding of more stuff which kinda goes against what i'm going for.

AncientSwordRage

8:02 PM

@Gwideon it can take a lot of consideration before you feel like writing it down. I sometimes write it down regardless as that helps the thinking progress. You can still bracket that section with warnings to that effect

Gwideon

this is honestly my first try at doing something like this and i know it probably sucks but i'm pretty happy with how the system plays in playtests. just having trouble getting it written down I guess,

anyways i'll be quiet

AncientSwordRage

8:18 PM

@Gwideon I didn't look too closely but I wouldn't say it sucks

Writing stuff down is definitely one of the harder bits!

In fact it's very good

kviiri

The important thing is to create. A few people might count your failures, but many more will count your successes – and no one will count the shots one won't take.

3

AncientSwordRage

8:35 PM

@kviiri DND has gone though 5 editions and numerous changes and it's still massively flawed. Nothing is perfect first time, and plenty of people love imperfect things

kviiri

Also like. I'm in the process of rewriting some bad proofs in my paper so I'm very much trying to internalize the idea that nothing is perfect the first time around because I really need to encourage myself thus as well x)

The first draft is valuable still!

AncientSwordRage

The procces I've seen is:

First draft, write don't edit.

kviiri

Me two days ago: "haha I'll just simplify this proof so it's more specific to my current case. I don't need this much generality"

Me today: "no I shouldn't have done that because I need the generality now"

AncientSwordRage

Second draft, edit don't write

Third draft, edit and write together

MikeQ

Look, part of being a content creator is being able to accept critical feedback without getting discouraged by it. It's a difficult part of the process, but still very important.

3

kviiri

8:41 PM

Also consider improving your insulation to get rid of draft

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri tomorrow: why did I leave so much generalisation in this?

@kviiri ba-dum tssss

kviiri

@AncientSwordRage Technically tomorrow starts in twentyish minutes for me

nitsua60

@AncientSwordRage I like how none of the answers (rightly) to this question are "five" =)

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri still time to change your mind then

kviiri

@nitsua60 This reminds me of an old stock troll from image boards. "Is anyone following the development of Assassins' Creed III" would invariably get at least a few messages about how it was already released ages ago (because the third game in the series, Brotherhood", came out years before III)

@AncientSwordRage My game plan is to go to shower, let the ideas mature, then come back to computer to write while my hair dries before bed

My real game plan is to actually think about one of my two pet political fantasy settings while in the shower because I associate thoughts with places super easily and for some reason the shower gets those two

AncientSwordRage

8:45 PM

@nitsua60 ok at least five

kviiri

The former is basically a pet worldbuilding project I do for personal enjoyment only, and is probably the closest to a conventional fantasy setting I've ever created. Even if it's chock full of parallels to 19th century to Cold War politics, not as much medieval ones like fantasy usual does

The other is my alternative history take loosely based on Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg, so an alternative timeline for post-Great War politics

It's called Otterreich: Legacy of the Feltkrieg, a timeline where a coalition of otters and beavers win the Great War and establish zones of marine mammal dominance over Western Europe.

MikeQ

@kviiri Is everyone else a woodland creature, or is it otters vs human troops?

kviiri

The main new powers are the independent otter state of Cornwall (capital in Ottery St. Mary), Otterstaat Furgundy that controls portions of historical Burgundy (Netherlands is beaver territory tho), and the autonomous zone of Beaveria in South Germany. Other notable political figures include the socialist beaver Fidel Castor in Cuba.

@MikeQ It depends on the particular politics – most are quite cool with beings of other species but of course there are terrible lutranationalist movements that could grow strong if things turn sour...

...I'm basically just trying to shove all the marine mammal puns I can there.

Especially otters. I love otters.

MikeQ

I imagine there's a conflict between Whaleachia and the Otterman Empire

Someone_Evil

Obligatory: i.imgur.com/mFes5Cr_d.webp?maxwidth=728&fidelity=grand

kviiri

8:58 PM

@MikeQ That's solid

In the lore it goes

MikeQ

Yeah, it's a few centuries too early for the Great War

see also: the Dolphin of France

kviiri

@MikeQ In Kaiserreich, the Ottoman Empire actually survived the Great War and is still alive and kicking in the 1930's with its territories largely intact, but with growing Arab and Iranian resistance against them

V2Blast

@NautArch I think it was pretty badly written, but the intention seemed pretty clear to me given the tags.

kviiri

my room is too hot with the computer on. It would be cool outside, but I want to keep the light on while I work so if I open the window my room'll be full of insect life x_x

problem

V2Blast

oof

kviiri

9:13 PM

@MikeQ I played a Stellaris game in multiplayer as a species of birds and I dedicated myself to making each planet a birdy pun on some actual city, region or country

V2Blast

lol

nice :D

kviiri

My capital was Flockholm. Other colonies I had were Chickago, Nestonia, Duckraine, New Stork City, Titaly, Beaking, Hennsylvania... there were more but I can't recall them as of now

2

Thrushia? But man. I didn't think of Turkey.

Also I named one of my fleets "The Order of Pecking", and regrettably missed the opportunity to name another war fleet "The War-blers"

Or "The Knights-in-Gale"

nitsua60

9:58 PM

@MikeQ I suspect that another important part is soliciting useful feedback. And I imagine (from the outside) that's a lot harder than it sounds.

MikeQ

@nitsua60 Could you elaborate on that?

nitsua60

10:14 PM

@MikeQ So let's say I write a thing. And A dozen people try it, and I ask if they liked it. 9 "yes," 2 "meh," 1 "nope." I'm not quite sure what I do with that feedback. If I tweak the thing the "nope" doesn't like, do I make it worse for some "yes"es? What fraction should I even be trying to satisfy?

So now I really should be asking more-targeted questions that are based on my design goals/philosophy, but if I'm new at this I probably don't have that really well fleshed-out.

All I know is I made a thing I think is neat, and I hope others do, too =)

I dunno... I'm just kinda blathering on, here.

kviiri

10:30 PM

Yeah, I agree. And even worse, sometimes people just have radically different ideas of how good is "good" and so on x)

The weekly extra of the Finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat used to have a film review page, with something like a top ten listing of films being screened ranked one to five stars by a board of critics. One of the critics was consistently giving one star to almost every film, much more rarely more

He was interviewed in the same paper once, the story was titled "The one-star man". I'm paraphrasing to the best of my memory here: "No, they're not necessarily bad in the usual sense. Just boring."

For some, four or five star reviews can come from like... general "wow" and appeal, but for him and many others, a five star review should mean the film stands up to the best films ever made. If one's style is that every star beyond the first requires particular cinematographic merit, the one star film isn't necessarily bad. It might... just not be very novel.

I personally consider aggregates of review scores to be rubbish data, therefore. Or maybe useful in niche circumstances and when backed with other data, but not really useful for drawing conclusions in a vacuum.

Carcer

10:50 PM

well, yeah, if people don't agree on what star ratings actually mean then they're a bit worthless

rotten tomatoes just aggregates on positive/negative review rather than actual score, IIRC?

kviiri

Same with eg. Steam ratings

Especially when a game doesn't exactly follow the traditional "one game, one version" system but has rolling updates/patches, and possible DLC

A broken release might produce a flood of bad reviews that is perfectly deserved and also perfectly irrelevant three days from there when the flaw is fixed. Bad reviews on a DLC can mean anything from "I don't really want this DLC" to "I wanted this DLC but it sucked" to "I don't really care about this DLC but the balance patch that came along with it broke my favorite strategy!"

And y'know the usual hype/hate train effects

I've written very few lengthy Steam reviews, one of them was for a game whose concept interested me a lot but the gameplay failed to live up to it, I wrote so in my review and picked apart at a few main issues with the execution. Notably, the game was in early access, so I concentrated on the aspects of the game that were (or probably were) intentional design decisions, although bad ones.

I got about 50/50 helpful vs not score. I guess hype-train vs others, roughly. But also one comment that made me smile: "I don't know why I voted this game up anymore, everything you say is completely true."

Carcer

steam at least offers both all-time and recent review temperatures

kviiri

Illustrating the point that sometimes we just... want to like something, to the point its flaws are not obvious until someone points them out.

MikeQ

11:11 PM

@nitsua60 Marketing concerns aside, I'd suggest asking what people liked and disliked, and addressing those concerns.

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BESW

Speaking from experience, that's actually often a *terrible* kind of feedback.
First off, the average consumer is really bad at knowing exactly what they like or dislike about a thing; the majority of the time they'll tell you what they noticed while having that feeling, rather than what caused the feeling.
And secondly, even if they're successful at communicating their likes and dislikes accurately, nothing is gonna make EVERYbody happy so trying to make changes to make people like your work is just gonna stretch it in all kinds of different directions that have nothing to do with what you…

Good feedback is based on knowing what effect you want the thing to have, and asking questions that get into the details of whether and how/how not that happened.

eg: I want Walkies With Grim to make people more mindful about their local reality. Ideally it could create an ongoing relationship with the place marked by a sense of belonging and responsibility. "What did you like and dislike" is never going to get me closer to that goal, it's tangential to the purpose of the game.

Ditto when I'm designing layout for, say, a literary magazine that's trying to make a space for Pasifika exploration of written literary forms. I wanna ask questions about how the reader related to the author and whether/how they used the gloss.

MikeQ

Yes. That would be an even better strategy.

And it's not that the designer must immediately obey every bit of feedback. But every feedback is worth considering, as reviewers can see potential blind spots or new directions.

BESW

11:29 PM

Also, there's a difference between review, critique, and feedback, and modern online disc-horse tends to conflate them all.

2

Reviews are for other consumers to learn more about the thing. They are not for creators and they are not intended to help improve the thing.

Feedback is a non-suggestive response; it's just telling the creator about the experience without suggesting what to change or why problems exist. It's a report, not a critique.

Critique is where you get structured analysis designed with creators in mind, it's where you get "I think this is why it's not working" and "maybe that should change in this way" kinds of thought.

nitsua60

@BESW Apropos of nothing, what does "used the gloss" mean?

BESW

@nitsua60 Gloss: a brief explanation of an unfamiliar word or expression; often as footnotes, endnotes, or marginalia. See "glossary."

nitsua60

Aaaaahhh. Ty.

BESW

We decided not to gloss the text because doing so centered (American, academic) English as the assumed language of the audience.

Oh, and also: unsolicited feedback or critique is a totally different kettle of fish. While it's important to know if, eg, your work is harmful to a demographic you'd been unaware of, the vast majority of unsolicited online responses should inspire no obligation in the recipient.

BESW

11:52 PM

(especially for indie creators, I've seen a lot of stress and burnout coming from their audience insisting that the creator needs to respond to the opinions of every rando who spent $2 on their work.)

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