TRPG General Chat

user15026

12:10 AM

@Rubiksmoose yes, I would not go into that room if you didn't have a lot of "it's bad news and it's awful and everything is awful" spoons. It can get...angry.

Hot RPG Questions

12:48 AM

9

Q: Can I still choose to allow an opportunity attack against me if I have the Mobile feat?

The third benefit of the Mobile feat says (PHB, p. 168): When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not. If I take the Mobile feat, can I choose to allow an enemy to make an opportuni...

KorvinStarmast

1:04 AM

@nitsua60 Sorry, it was a fraudulent slip, it must have been another guy who looked just like you, but different, and The Secretary will disavow any knowledge of this chat comment. This web site will self destruct in 60 seconds ...

@Rubiksmoose whoo, that's interesting. I may have an open afternoon. Let me discuss with the Missus. Our sunday afternoon thing died recently ...

BESW

See this? This is what I want out of combat-focused systems these days.

Pacific Rim: Friendship Through Fighting

►

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Nice!

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Combat as war is a purer game, but I do see the attraction of combat as sport: heck, see professional boxing when it is performed at a high level. Beautiful combat as sport.

BESW

It's not combat as sport.

KorvinStarmast

It was called the sweet science for a reason, and yes it is, very much, combat as sport.

BESW

1:17 AM

...you're not talking about what I'm talking about.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Then what are you talking about, given that video clip that you tossed up there?

BESW

It's not a clip, it's a 16-minute analysis of five fights from Pacific Rim through the lens of professional combat choreography.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW professional combat choreography is combat as sport.

BESW

And, if it were this clip, it would make the point at the beginning anyway: "It's about compatibility. It's a dialogue, not a fight."

KorvinStarmast

As she says, it's fake people doing combat. Combat as war is purer.

BESW

1:21 AM

Combat choreography as a tool for storytelling. Sport is not storytelling. It is not choreographed to communicate character.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW No, combat is not a tool for story telling. Combat is lethal activity.

Combat for story telling is fake, it is sport, not combat as war.

Sport is itself is an abstraction of combat.

It's a contest for lower stakes

gszavae

1:44 AM

I don't think you can call combat choreography combat as sport. Even in sport, there are stakes, uncertain outcomes, competition, etc. A narrative depiction of something is divorced from the actual action.

linksassin

> BESW: See this? This is what I want out of combat-focused systems these days.

They weren't saying that all combat should be that way, or that it is the only way for combat to be. Simply that combat as story-telling is what they are looking for in combat-focused systems.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast (he he he)

Hot RPG Questions

2:01 AM

5

Q: Can the Echo Knight's Echo make Ability Checks?

In the Echo Knight subclass it states that the Echo "uses your saving throw bonus for [saving throws]", but says nothing about being able to make ability checks with the Echo. I'm primarily concerned about ability checks like stealth and acrobatics/athletics, things you might want to make in the ...

dnd-5e class-feature skills fighter

kviiri

6:52 AM

Good morning

Adeptus

7:27 AM

Good afternoon

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

9:27 AM

@KorvinStarmast Some RPGs distinguish three categories of combat-like skills: actual combat, meaning experience of or maximally close to actual combat conditions; sport, which focuses on highly regulated competition but usually implying improvised interactivity with a rival; art, which involves rehearsed sequences of moves, sometimes evaluated base on æsthetic quality, plot-conveying quality, or some highly arbitrary criteria without focus on improvised interacting with a rival.

To some degree this division represents how one could describe the categories IRL too (but is of course not the only one, and the edges can be fuzzy of course). Something rehearsed seems to fall under the 'art' subset of this three-way categorisation. I think some of you may be using a two-category and some a three-category split, but not spelling out the base assumptions explicitly, which may be the cause of the above exchange.

Hot RPG Questions

9:45 AM

2

Q: Language proficiency per week of downtime

One of my players does not speak common as they come from a village that speaks entirely elvish. We are coming up on a couple weeks of downtime in the campaign and another one of the players wants to teach them common. According to the Xanathar's rules it takes 10 weeks to become proficient in a ...

dnd-5e languages downtime

KorvinStarmast

12:41 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Interesting take on that. "Combat as art" - hmm, lemme ponder on that.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@KorvinStarmast Kata being perhaps one of the most (in)famous examples.

NautArch

howdy howdy

doppelgreener

o/

NautArch

12:57 PM

how goes?

Hot RPG Questions

4

Q: Will using Convergent Future give you a critical success if the minimum number you need to hit is 20?

Convergent Future (p185 EGtW) States: When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed... If the roll is ...

dnd-5e class-feature wizard critical-hit

doppelgreener

I'm having a good day and watching that vidja BESW linked.

How's things? :D

NautArch

Just kinda sticking my head in the sand this morning. Working on work and repopulating the Doomvault dungeon for my players.

Just realized I need to add the fog of war back so they don't know what's inside repopulated areas.

BESW

@doppelgreener She's got a whole series of videos like that! It's a pretty cool way to think about developing character and relationships.

doppelgreener

It is, I'm liking this a lot.

KorvinStarmast

1:10 PM

@NautArch \o

nitsua60

@NautArch That, or just moving denizens from layer to layer?

@BESW It's also making me look forward to watching Captain Marvel again. My older daughter and I just started our MCU-watch project for the summer. She opted for in-universe chrono, so last weekend was First Avenger and this weekend we've got Captain Marvel queued up =)

doppelgreener

Typically in an RPG fight, the net side effect is that some resources have been used up, and one side has submitted to the other (via surrender, dying, etc). There are some consequences if there's wounds or if someone had to giveup something special.

But they're not dialogs for establishing and creating relationships, or for characters to communicate to each other.

BESW

@nitsua60 Nice, two of my favorite characters back to back.

doppelgreener

Or for us as players to talk about our characters' relationships with each other, or use a fight as a vessel to explore and define or redefine them.

Typically the relationships have already been defined before the fight starts, and remain predominantly unchanged when they end, but those two fights in Pacific Rim fundamentally work to redefine a relationship during the course of them happening

nitsua60

@BESW I think it's going to make Fury a more interesting/compelling figure for her. I worry, though, that having seen planet-saving CM do her thing my daughter's going to spend fifteen films just thinking "why don't they just call Captain Marvel, she's bad-ass?"

NautArch

1:17 PM

@nitsua60 Oh, that would have been smarter

/doh

I only 'hid' one map. I'll go unhide and move to GM layer.

nitsua60

@NautArch I mean, if it was to save the trouble of dealing with layers I'd get it--the UI is so clunky.

NautArch

@nitsua60 SO clunky

doppelgreener

So we're looking at a system where fights are employed a potential means to communicate something, or change a relationship, or to prove something to somebody (other than "I can beat you in a fight")

NautArch

@nitsua60 Although...this is the one area that gets 'dark' in the dungeon. And it's on an opposite cycle to the rest, so it's always dark for the party. May be easier to just work with the fog of war.

doppelgreener

June's done some work in this area in the context of shounen fights, now that I think about it

BESW

1:21 PM

Yeah, or discovering something about themselves, or--you know, how certain kinds of martial arts films use combat in the way musicals use songs: when words aren't enough to express the emotion of the scene, you sing/fight.

Hot RPG Questions

5

Q: Can your familiar use the frozen spell bead from Arcane Abeyance to indirectly let you concentrate on a 2nd spell?

Arcane Abeyance (p184 EGtW)Says: ...A creature holding the bead can use its action to release the spell within, whereupon the bead disappears. The spell uses your spell attack bonus and save DC, and the spell treats the creature who released it as the caster for all other purposes. Find Fam...

dnd-5e magic-items spellcasting familiars concentration

BESW

1:32 PM

@doppelgreener I think it really highlights part of my problem with so many conflict systems; the idea of "winning" and "losing" and "stakes" tend to be presented as straitjackets which fail to understand the narrative role many physical conflicts play in story media.

In particular, Fate should be great at this sort of character-driven conflict, but in practice it's super not.

It also came into clarity while talking with friends about the complexity of She-Ra's plots and how there's so many people running around doing different things and it cuts between them all without a lot of "btw here's what's happening," it just expects you to remember.

Because, by and large, while She-Ra's intrigue/politics/war plots are solid, they don't matter. They're the justification for throwing different people together in different kinds of tension and seeing what happens.

doppelgreener

I'm thinking through shows and movies I've seen good fight scenes in.

The fights in The Matrix's first film are impressive because of what we learn about the characters during them: Trinity's badass and dangerous, Smith's abilities are wholly superhuman, Neo's absolutely determined to protect others, Morpheus will struggle like hell to do everything he can even under the worst circumstances. Later, we see Neo meet Smith as an equal and then, in the end, he's on a whole other level that Smith can't compete with.

V2Blast

Mythic Odysseys of Theros is out on D&D Beyond. Notably, Tritons got darkvision in the Theros book. That change also got directly errataed into the Volo's compendium on D&D Beyond as well. 👀

doppelgreener

Avatar: the Last Airbender's fights are predominantly fun because of visual and creative spectacle. It's just fun to see what people can do with and without bending. But the really interesting fights are like small character arcs: the hero is thrust into a dramatic situation, is reluctant, has their shortcomings and struggles explored, then they face a critical moment, make a choice that changes who they are, and that choice leads to them having the tools to end the fight.

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast Good catch; I'll make a note in my Volo's.

NautArch

@doppelgreener I am loving Avatar. My 6 year old found it and we're watching it together.

KorvinStarmast

1:45 PM

Question for anyone who has taken a peek at Mercer's material: any of you play a Blood Hunter in D&D 5e? I am pondering the NPC/monster as someone stalking the party; that seems a doable monster/NPC. As I read through the sub classes my brain screams "fiddly bits" but ... how does it play? Does it seem fiddlier than it plays?

doppelgreener

Some examples:
- Zuko vs General Zhao: We explore Zuko's rashness and disregard for his teachings. He makes a choice to be calm and methodical. That gives him the tools to win the fight.
- Several fights are defined by which side Zuko chooses to take, and the same goes for Iroh.
- Zuko's central episode fighting the thuggish gang of Earth Kingdom guards revolves around a major, transformative decision where he has to confront things about who he is.
- Many of Aang's fights bring him directly into confrontation with his own struggle to resolve his personal wants and needs, his airbender phil…

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast A guy I was playing with was a bloodhunter. DIdn't get to see too much, but it was also first tier, so not too many options. It seemed a little underwhelming, but that was the previous version, too.

doppelgreener

Then there's that one fight between Katara and the old black ravens general in the last season (Katara's personal adventure, you know the one) in which Katara directly addresses her trauma and makes new decisions about how to handle it.

NautArch

no spoilers!

doppelgreener

Pointedly avoiding spoilers as best I can

NautArch

1:47 PM

hehe

I also made my daughter promise not to watch without me

BESW

One of the reasons Jackie Chan's Hong Kong dramadies tend to work better than any of his American films, is that his characters' dialogue and their combat come from the same place in the characterization: he can seamlessly transition from talking to fighting and back again because there's no actual transition.

doppelgreener

@BESW Do you have a favorite or two? I need some fun movies to add to my list.

BESW

Oh gosh.

It's been a very long time and honestly they can get kinda interchangeable. I'll take a look.

doppelgreener

Thank you :D

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Thanks, I think I'll sic the NPC BH on them if they find the artifact in the Sunless Citadel (my brother and I have decided that it starts as an uncommon item, and it "unlocks" more features and side effects if the PCs increase in level. We are still fiddling with the details). The first side effect is that once attuned, within 30 days an agent of the cult that made it, lost it, and seeks it will get on to the party's trail ...

NautArch

2:00 PM

I think he was only at level 5 or so.

BUt it just seemed...meh.

KorvinStarmast

OK. @NautArch I think you are the one who help me constrain the scope on that item.

V2Blast

@LizWeir Nice :D

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch GiTP reviews on BH seems to be mixed.

BESW

@doppelgreener Lots of people really like his Drunken Master films (I and II; III is basically a sequel in name only). I'm all for any of his films where he gets to co-star with Anita Mui, she's just fantastic. Miracles is a more serious Chan/Mui vehicle that I really enjoyed.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast the new or old version?

BESW

2:02 PM

@doppelgreener Twin Dragons is a hilarious comedy where Chan plays twins separated at birth; one's a pianist and the other is a street racer. That one has Maggie Cheung, anything with her is great too, like Police Story which is also super popular but a little less funny.

V2Blast

@DavidCoffron Heh. My top answer here actually seems proportionate to the effort it took to research it, and surprisingly it's not about D&D!

63

A: Which Article Helped Get Rid of Technobabble in RPGs?

"Causality and Choice in RPGs, Part 1: Getting rid of the {TECH}" on The 20' By 20' Room blog by Neel Krishnaswami It was a bit challenging to find this article. It took a search result pointing to a forum post linking to another forum post linking to a dead site (which I then looked up in the W...

BESW

I'll also mention the non-Jackie-Chan film The Heroic Trio because it stars Michelle Yeoh, Maggie Cheung, AND Anita Mui so how can it possibly go wrong?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I can only recall commentary on the original version, not from the updated one at DDB ...

NautArch

debating between putting a Crystal Golem or an Elder Oblex as a replacement monster in one of my rooms...

BESW

@doppelgreener Or, just set the CC to "Movie Titles" on this and check out what looks interesting to you?

Jackie Chan - How to Do Action Comedy

►

G. Moylan

2:19 PM

question

Someone_Evil

Answer

NautArch

Followup

G. Moylan

Are we allowed to provide links to sites that point to old White Dwarf pdf scans, since those are old magazines? or is there another source we should use?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Is Oblex from Mord's? That monster is oddly named for me; I either think "Obelix" the Gaul with the Menhir delivery service, or the Dr Seuss book Bartholemew and the Oobleck

NautArch

Ha! but yeah, from Mordy.

Basically, they cleared out a lot of the Golem labs and even damaged a transmutation circle in the clay labs.

BESW

2:21 PM

@G.Moylan Do not point people to piracy sites on the Stack Exchange.

NautArch

THey left the stone giants working, so I'm going to replace the stone golem and the wizards working on it.

G. Moylan

@BESW Where else can I get old White Dwarf editions online?

@G.Moylan Otherwise I'm just quoting something that isn't easy to verify

NautArch

But not quite sure what to do with the rest of the area. Debating about just leaving it clear by the Deva...which I may do.

BESW

I mean... we cite things all the time and tell people where it's from without providing the original material itself.

G. Moylan

@BESW Those are pretty easy to corss reference though. Materials either currently in print or can be found on DMsGuild or whatnot.

BESW

2:23 PM

....and?

G. Moylan

To be clear: I'm not arguing for linking to piracy sites, I'm just trying to understand what my alternative options are

This is a magazine from the 80s that is probably very difficult to find

NautArch

@G.Moylan Trust that your citation is accurate. If you are actually quoting from a magazine, then go ahead and quote. If someone wants to say you're wrong, it's on them.

But ify ou're right, thenyou're right.

BESW

If you have the material, cite it. You're not responsible for giving the material to other people so they can check.

3

NautArch

^^

G. Moylan

ok

BESW

2:24 PM

If they want to go looking, they can.

G. Moylan

just watned to make sure

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch It's OK to have dead space (I just read Alexandrian's "the day the old school died" and appreciate how he explains its value)

G. Moylan

thanks all

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Well, it's more that the Thayans are still active. But they can also only be so active.

BESW

We don't pirate stuff just to prove that we're not making it up.

G. Moylan

2:26 PM

@BESW I wasn't arguing for making that OK, I was curious if 40-year-old magazines weren't considered pirating, and if they were, then where else to get them

KorvinStarmast

@G.Moylan FWIW, I had a brief interchange with SSD a few years back discussing this, and we agreed that linking to a source I had would be bad, so I went with page and issue citation to avoid supporting what I think is a pirate site.

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan That's a pretty complicated question to answer honestly.

BESW

That's not even relephant because even if they were fair game, you'd be linking to an Actual Piracy Site which just happened to have some legal content also.

G. Moylan

@BESW fair

but that's why the "where else" part is included

either way, I'll just cite it like normal with no links and wish the querant luck in finding it

Rubiksmoose

Yeah, and the thing is ethics and legality aside, RPGPirateAhoy.com is likely not going to be around this time next year or in 5 years.

So a link to said site is not even useful in the long run.

KorvinStarmast

2:28 PM

@NautArch yeah, or maybe their supply chain was disrupted for a few weeks and the parts are on back order! 8^o

Rubiksmoose

Relevant: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2770/…

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, a lot of stuff i'm not adding, and I don't' want to make this a re-slog, but taking rests is a big risk here. The vault continues on.

SOme areas more than others, though.

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan Sounds like the best option :)

NautArch

@G.Moylan As long as you quote correctly, than it's fine.

i mean, I've cited things from rare books in academics, so it's not like most folks had access to them.

BESW

I didn't scan and upload Ki Khanga to help people answer my questions about it.

NautArch

2:30 PM

You cite your source. It's up to others to find it if they want it.

BESW

Or Dog Eat Dog, which was out of print at the time.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW IIRC uploading the KK books wouldn't have helped answer any questions about it anyways ;-)

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Technically one of them might've been assisted by it.

G. Moylan

should I explain that that's how I know? "I found it online but I cannot link it here per site rules." Or should I just not mention it at all?

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan Just cite the page and book. No need to go further than that.

G. Moylan

2:32 PM

ok

Rubiksmoose

@BESW TBF I'm only going off vague recollections of you saying the books were pretty ... opaque?

BESW

(also, for White Dwarf specifically, the original publisher still exists. So it's not like there's any question about the rights holders having vanished.)

Rubiksmoose

This is an intriguing Kickstarter that just launched. Haven't looked too much into it yet though. It's coming with an exclusive expansion for my favorite RPG so I'm definitely looking at it.

Role: A New Kind of Platform For The RPG Community

NautArch

@G.Moylan I think your comment should be folded into your answer as well.

G. Moylan

@NautArch editing...

@NautArch done

BESW

2:42 PM

I know some people I respect in the TRPG community are working on Role, and other people I respect are amplifying it.

It's probably not the kind of thing that meets my needs, though.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW oh that's a good sign!

It may or may not be something I need as well. But I'm definitely intrigued. $20 for a Masks supplement and a worthy project seems like a good deal to me if my budget allows.

V2Blast

2:59 PM

@doppelgreener I recently started rewatching A:TLA with my mom, who hasn't seen it before. I can't wait to get to the proper Zuko arcs :)

BESW

Here, have an Amr Ammourazz Twitter thread about the best redemption arc in ATLA.

V2Blast

@Rubiksmoose ayy, that's why it was familiar. Lancer: Battlegroup! :)

> First, we're extremely excited to reveal Lancer: Battlegroup, the official expansion from Massif Press!

Lancer: Battlegroup is a new, standalone rules system for the Lancer setting, designed for use at your tabletop and in digital, grid-free play. Blending Lancer’s deep unit customization and imbued story with tactical-narrative action, Battlegroup casts the players as pilots and officers in a battlegroup deployed to the front line; as the first tremors of interstellar war test Union’s integrity, you and your party members will face the enemy with new weapons and old tactics, thrown into…

looks like some other cool stuff too

BESW

I'll also mention that although it wasn't flawless, ATLA is one of the only well-known "depose the colonial empire" stories to actually think about what the aftermath of that looks like for the survivors... and how rebuilding can go wrong. Unfortunately it did this in comics barely anybody read.

V2Blast

Yeah, I actually did read some of 'em. It was quite an interesting read

need to reread and figure out where I dropped off

BESW

3:16 PM

One of my biggest disappointments with Steven Universe Future is that it never interrogated what dismantling a colonial empire means when the only survivors are the colonizers--or, indeed, really came to grips with the implications of a setting that has completely erased all its Indigenous-analogue people except the tiny handful some colonizers chose to save for their own emotional catharsis.

NautArch

@V2Blast Rather than continue our comment chain in your answer, I sitll think I'm not understanding how overrun works with standard rules.

BESW

There was a LOT of potential there which got weirdly and uncomfortably ignored.

KorvinStarmast

3:28 PM

@NautArch Hmm, is the vault a sentient dungeon? 13th age has that as a game feature, I grapped a supplemlent to 13th age that features dungeons as sentient beings of some sort ... but I'll leave it on the shelf until after we've played in kviiri's 13th age game ...

(Title has something something thief in it, I think Magician wrote an answer on that here somewhere some years ago)

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Oh hey, I played a Masks one shot with Amr IIRC.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Cool!

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast THe dungeon itself isn't sentient. But it's run by Thayan liches who have a very clear plan.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Ah, OK, but now I have to go and find Magician's answer ...

V2Blast

@NautArch I mean, I dunno how to say it more clearly :P

NautArch

3:34 PM

@V2Blast I guess it just seems weird when a small creature can't normally do it, but now it can. BUt it's not overriding that rule.

I guess you're arguing it's "more specific", but when the specificity basically makes the other rule irrelephant, then i'm not sure why it isn't just overriden.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Ah yes it was them! twitter.com/bluestockingetc/status/1252294638775308288

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I think that Eyes of the Stone Thief is the sentient dungeon thing. But that seems to be a DM tool, not a player tool, so I'm saving it for later.

Himitsu_no_Yami

So, thoughts on MOoT for those who have it already?

V2Blast

3:56 PM

@NautArch a small creature can't normally do what?

NautArch

@V2Blast Can't normally go through a medium enemy's space. But they can with overrun, right?

V2Blast

@NautArch Well, to be clear, halflings already can go through any Medium or larger enemy's space, and halflings are Small

:P

NautArch

@V2Blast ignoring that specific race :P

V2Blast

but yes, Overrun grants them a way to do so

I've just been confused by your use of "override"

NautArch

So is the Overrun more specific?

V2Blast

3:58 PM

more specific than what?

NautArch

Than the general rule that a medium creature can't pass through the space of a large creature.

Someone_Evil

@Himitsu_no_Yami I didn't have much interest in playing on MtG's basically-greek-mythos-world, and I'm not sure how many others do. The two new subclasses feel a meh (not introducing any new themes), but the two new races are cool though

V2Blast

@NautArch The general rule doesn't say you "can't" do anything. The general rule says "you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you." It describes a way for the creature to move through a hostile creature's space, as long as a certain restriction is met.

Himitsu_no_Yami

I think so far from my reading the most interesting thing is that two or three of the races aren't humanoids but rather fey

V2Blast

Overrun/Tumble describe a different way for the creature to move through a hostile creature's space, as long as totally different restrictions/limitations are met.

NautArch

4:01 PM

@V2Blast Oh. I guess i'm reading that if it's not, you can't.

BUt you are not.

V2Blast

@Himitsu_no_Yami isn't it just satyrs now, in addition to centaurs?

Himitsu_no_Yami

@V2Blast pretty sure the GGtR versions were classed as humanoids

V2Blast

@Himitsu_no_Yami centaurs? no, they're fey

centaurs are unchanged

we have a Q&A about it

:P

Himitsu_no_Yami

Really? I could've sworn...

*furiously goes back to check*

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil I think it's coming in the mail today, so I am pumped.

Himitsu_no_Yami

4:04 PM

I swear it didn't used to say fey for centaur...

V2Blast

@NautArch "Y is true only if X is true" is another way of saying "if X is true, then Y must be true". So in this case, "can move through enemy space only if 2 sizes larger/smaller" means "if 2 sizes larger/smaller, can move through enemy space". That does not imply that "if you're not 2 sizes larger/smaller, you can't move through the enemy space" is true.

@Himitsu_no_Yami lol, nope. it's been the sole outlier in published content

NautArch

ah, i think that was my mistake

Himitsu_no_Yami

I swear it didn't used to tho... I'm not crazy!

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami But the rest of us are. 8^)

Himitsu_no_Yami

@KorvinStarmast Yes, I'm the only sane one here!

NautArch

4:08 PM

wait, you guys are real?

Himitsu_no_Yami

@NautArch No, we're all just figments of your imagination

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch can I get back to you on that? I once had an iPhone that wasn't a real phone, so it seemed to be of little use ..

Mark Wells

4:25 PM

@V2Blast Your first sentence is backward. "Y is true only if X is true" is equivalent to "if Y is true, then X is true". Consider the case that falsifies the statement: where Y is true but X is false.

doppelgreener

^^^ ["Y is true only if X is true" is another way of saying "if X is true, then Y must be true"] -- case in point on that: "there is life only if there is oxygen"; but "there is oxygen, therefore there must be life" is not necessarily true

V2Blast

hmmm

@MarkWells you right

doppelgreener

right. in mark's formulation we say "there is life only if there is oxygen" and "there is life, therefore there is oxygen"

or "there is ice only if there is water" and "there is ice, therefore there is water"

(let's leave aside that there's life with no oxygen. :D axioms can be wrong)

Mark Wells

That said, trying to apply formal logic to D&D rules is unlikely to end well.

7

NautArch

I still remain unconvinced that overrun doesn't simply replace the standard rule :)

Mark Wells

4:34 PM

@NautArch The standard rule (need to be >=2 sizes bigger) is still necessary to allow for things like walking through a grassy field. Otherwise, uh oh, a grasshopper, have to use your action to Overrun it.

NautArch

@MarkWells True, but in terms of creature-creature interactions, it seems to no longer apply.

Mark Wells

(That is, it's an acknowledgement of something every reasonable DM is going to allow anyway.)

NautArch

but no one has put up a competing answer, and i'm not sure enough to submit my own

Himitsu_no_Yami

@MarkWells may try that on a player as a joke one day just to see their reaction

NautArch

Just noticed the nine lives stealer may not in fact be able to steal nine lives.

V2Blast

4:41 PM

@NautArch I mean, the only part of the rule it literally "overrides" is the word "only". Now you can move through a creature's space in other ways :P

the base rules don't account for action options in the DMG

NautArch

@V2Blast Only is also the meat of the rule, too :P

Mark Wells

@V2Blast They do, via the option to improvise an action not described in the rules :)

doppelgreener

@MarkWells that's why i brought this textbook on formal illogic

Mark Wells

4:55 PM

@doppelgreener I've got a copy of Programming Perl in the other room, will that work?

JuneShores

I have been summoned.

Somebody was talking about narrative stakes and character change in RPGs!!!

commences asthmatic nerd breathing

Mark Wells

@JuneShores Tell us about narrative stakes!

JuneShores

5:12 PM

@BESW @doppelgreener
There are a couple games that do this action as conversation thing. Smallville is the one that springs to mind first.

In Smallville your core attributes are your values and relationships, which have a topic (a universal set of 5 values and a relationship for each important character), a statement for each topic (unique to each character), and a die rating (the more sides the better). When you take action with a dice roll, you have to link it back to any pair of values and relationships.

But you also have the option to "challenge" one of your character's values or relationships. Meaning you act contrary to them for the rest of the conflict, because it's just not working. In exchange, you triple that die for the rest of the conflict. A d10 Lois is my soul mate becomes 3d10 if you let go of that relationship and redefine it. Now what does Lois do in response?

Shalvenay

oh hey there @JuneShores, good seeing you around!

JuneShores

There's also Monsterhearts, which pretty much only gives the players bad, volatile tools to sort out their problems, so nearly every action snowballs with the others into some character defining consequence.

Hey Shalvenay.

doppelgreener

@JuneShores How's that play out? Like, Clarke redefines his relationship to Lois on his end, now Lois (either immediately or later) might redefine her end?

JuneShores

A little bit. Their relationship statements to each other shouldn't say the same thing, so she likely doesn't have to change it.

A statement is about the character's point of view, not the reality of the relationship or value.

doppelgreener

If I remember correctly: in Smallville, when two characters have a relationship, we basically draw a line between them. Each one then expresses their view of the other / their relationship to the other.

That's how it works, right?

Mark Wells

5:25 PM

@JuneShores so, she could insist that the relationship is the same from her side, or she could challenge/redefine it also

is that right?

JuneShores

Right.

Mark Wells

and what you have is a machine for generating teen soap opera drama by encouraging players to radically pivot their characters' motivations in times of stress :)

JuneShores

Pretty much.

But it also refocuses the narrative on that conversation, so any fight that happens is going to be more about the conversation than it is about who wins or loses.

Shalvenay

how've you been for that matter?

JuneShores

I've been alright. Moving house at the moment and staying at a BnB for a week while that gets sorted out.

Shalvenay

5:34 PM

@JuneShores aah, moving's always an interesting experience

been ruminating a fair bit lately as to building a house, myself (since I seriously doubt that I can find an off-the-shelf house that's going to fit many of my criteria)

JuneShores

5:45 PM

Well, if you have the ability then that sounds like a great option.

Shalvenay

@JuneShores yeah, the big problem is costing actually, I have some rather unusual construction features in mind that I'm not sure how to price out

doppelgreener

that has me now imagining houses on shelves

and my brain is not sure how to work with that concept

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener LOL

like one of those old Sears, Roebuck, and Co house kits eh?

doppelgreener

hey, you didn't say nothin about no kits

i want my brand new house pre-assembled off the shelf

Mark Wells

6:01 PM

@doppelgreener all3dp.com/2/3d-printed-house-cost ?

doppelgreener

Pre-assembled, dangit!

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener a doublewide gets dropped off in greener's yard

doppelgreener

Thank you

[yard and part of house crushed utterly]

On a more serious note I've just remembered there's various initiatives to produce open source modular housing designs people can just, you know, download and purchase and assemble themselves

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener yeah, there's been a fair bit of push in that direction by IncDev folks in terms of making plans and such for small multifamily buildings and so on available, even

Shalvenay

6:46 PM

hey there @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

6:58 PM

Hi Shal

@Shalvenay best wishes on the financing. You gonna wire it yourself?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast eheheh

it's still floating around my head at this point, nothing firm. the issue from a financial standpoint is being able to figure out a pro forma for an oddly constructed building XD

KorvinStarmast

@Shal A friend of mine built a place that finally finished about four years ago. He had some custom feature that he basically had to argue with the contractors to put in. They were not keen on adding custom features for some reason. He was on site tracking progress almost daily, since a lot of sub in this area are not great at meeting deadlines. He spent a lot of time on the phone. This is your future, depending on who your contractor/project lead is.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, finding good contractors/subs is definitely going to be one of the biggest challenges I can foresee

KorvinStarmast

7:15 PM

Friend of mine lives near Richmond VA. about 12 or so years ago he went through a few hundred blue prints and mods and finally arrived at a design that folded in the features that he liked. He spent a lot of about two years researching the details, and all said and done, it worked out. His dad, who had recently retired, helped him a bit on the project management and 'on site' oversight. (Also, his dad ended up living with them, passed away last year. ) A labor of love but it has paid off

He wired the whole place himself for stereo, phone, internet, (Cat V or Cat VI in each room, multiple drops) and had some custom power / electrical wiring with a local friend who is certified in the trades. He knows its all to code or better; he was there when it was put in, wire by wire.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, a lot of the real odd stuff is more structural though -- not only "total shell" insulated composite concrete form construction, but precast hollowcore plank interior structural floors supporting a noncombustible raised finish subfloor, with the resulting crawl used for wiring, ducts, and such on that floor

Peter Cooper Jr.

From having my own house built, I can say (1) Yes, you need someone on site every day to make sure things are going the way you expect, and (2) Put in at least three times as many ethernet jacks as you think you want in each room.

KorvinStarmast

@PeterCooperJr. Yeah, item (2) is one of the places where my Richmond buddy did not skimp.

Peter Cooper Jr.

I'm just constantly kicking myself for not having more put in, especially in the living room. Somehow in 2005 I didn't envision having every game console, video player, television, amplifier, computer, etc. being network connected. Even though I really should have.

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BESW

10:54 PM

@JuneShores Thanks!

Ben

Morning all

How is everyone today?

goodguy5

Good evening, Ben

Do you want the fast answer or the real answer?

Ben

I'll go for the real answer :)

Also on a side note, I've seen your comments @GcL, but am yet to review them.

goodguy5

Pretty rough. goodbaby5 wouldn't nap today or yesterday. And I'm solo parenting until about 1PM Mondays and and Tuesdays.

Combined with the cumulative effects of the quarantine.

Combined with the general state of the world.

Yesterday I was really bad. Today I'm just emotionally exhausted, which I guess is better.

Ben

That is rough :( I'm sorry to hear it. I do hope things ease up for you a bit, I can understand what you must be feeling.

Hang on a sec...

[rummages]

goodguy5

11:09 PM

Tomorrow is my wife's problem ;)

and thanks

Ben

I have... A supportive pat on the back, a cool handshake that I saw on the internet, or a ghost hug; it says "you can't feel it, but it's there"

goodguy5

d'aw, thanks ^_^